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Author Topic: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...  (Read 44462 times)

eronald

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Re: Extensive high quality lens systems are a barrier to adopting a new format
« Reply #80 on: December 09, 2013, 10:12:58 pm »


What they did with the A7 is really not groundbreaking, it's just ground breaking in regards to price.  22 mpx in a new camera for half the price of a 5d2 is what is ground breaking, same with the a7r vs. the d800.

IMO

BC

J,
Nah,you're so close to the action you're missing it. It's a one-two technology-marketing punch: The release via Nikon of a high-rez (Sony) sensor with major architectural novelties; then the release of a "real" camera that is just a box with a lens and shutter is a marketing sucker punch, a violation of the Omerta, a public refutation of the complex mechanisms which Nikon and Canon kept selling.

The D800 sensor with many pixels and huge DR has knocked everyone including Canon for a loop. And now with the A7R we have moved a major step forwards to the Red-like camera with no moving parts.

It looks like fast-return mirrorboxes, pentaprisms, AF-sensors, metering sensors, and possibly even shutters are finally going to go out of fashion - a lot of roadkill among the little manufacturing folk out there; and a world were cameras are just a sensor in a box, with a display on top, cheaper to make, no precision moving parts, and with a lot less justification for custom mounts. Think Red.

Sony may have "allowed" Nikon to use their revolutionary new sensor, but then in the closeness of their rapprochement they shoved a poison dagger into the heart of Nikon's technological manufacturing base - most of the specialized mechanical assemblies which for 40 years were the core of the SLR are now finally *seen* as obsolete, with the A7R clearly shown to be a relative and peer of the D800. Welcome to the brave new world of Mirrorless.

And by the way, change is not necessarily a bad thing. Cameras without moving parts are cameras any computer geek can design and tune - we may suddenly see a wind of change and novelty sweep in. Quite possibly european and even US manufacturers with optics experience may stage a comeback.

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 10:49:05 pm by eronald »
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synn

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #81 on: December 09, 2013, 10:30:17 pm »

The Phase CEO in his interview with Michael Reichmann casually mentioned that the IXR is a glimpse at what the future Phase camera will be like. So I'm thinking the future of medium format is mirrorless too.

Of course, with Mirrorless and EVF comes CMOS, which I am not yet sure I am happy about. Like BC demonstrated many times with his images, I have found that CCD images have a certain quality about them; whatever scientific mumbo jumbo be the reason behind it.
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eronald

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #82 on: December 09, 2013, 11:02:27 pm »

With mirrorless comes good focus via EVF, and suddenly you can sell more, but it becomes much harder to sell complete camera systems to studio photographers. And then a year later you discover that the competition can make a business case too that they can sell backs, with on-site user alignment and calibration, so you have a *lot* of mom and pop competition.

Edmund

The Phase CEO in his interview with Michael Reichmann casually mentioned that the IXR is a glimpse at what the future Phase camera will be like. So I'm thinking the future of medium format is mirrorless too.

Of course, with Mirrorless and EVF comes CMOS, which I am not yet sure I am happy about. Like BC demonstrated many times with his images, I have found that CCD images have a certain quality about them; whatever scientific mumbo jumbo be the reason behind it.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 11:04:17 pm by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #83 on: December 09, 2013, 11:53:22 pm »

Hi

I guess it is called CGA (Color Grid Array). No mumbo jumbo, just a set of tiny filters defining colour. Older Phase backs, Leica M9, Hasselblad use Kodak/TrueSense sensors and they have Kodak CGAs. Later generation Phase One and most Leaf MFDs use DALSA CCDs with DALSA CGAs. Leica M has a sensor developed by CMOSIS for Leica that has a different CGA.

Sony sensors have Sony CGAs and Canon sensors have Canon CGAs.

The sensors are monochrome, except Foveon, and all colour is coming from the CGAs.

There are differences in spectral sensivity between devices that may matter, but when the cameras discussed have CGAs coming from the same vendor it is probable the CGA affect colour far more than CCD or CMOS.

If Phase One would use a CMOS sensor from DALSA it would have DALSA colours. Would Hasselblad use a CMOS sensor from Sony it would probably have Sony colours. I guess that it would possible for a sensor vendor to make different CGAs for different customers, of course.

Best regards
Erik


Of course, with Mirrorless and EVF comes CMOS, which I am not yet sure I am happy about. Like BC demonstrated many times with his images, I have found that CCD images have a certain quality about them; whatever scientific mumbo jumbo be the reason behind it.
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synn

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #84 on: December 10, 2013, 12:00:36 am »

Hi Erik,

I think some of the subtlety was lost in translation. I do know the basic technology behind a bayer patter sensor. The point is, as an artist, I don't really care much for the subtle technology differences or photons and all that, but a CCD sensor delivers a much more pleasing image to me when it comes to portraiture. Again, as an artist, that's all I need to know.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #85 on: December 10, 2013, 01:03:50 am »

Hi,

My point is that if MF moves to CMOS the color rendition will not be affected as long as the same or similar CGAs are used. So TrueSense will probably keep the Kodak look and DALSA will probably keep the DALSA look.

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik,

I think some of the subtlety was lost in translation. I do know the basic technology behind a bayer patter sensor. The point is, as an artist, I don't really care much for the subtle technology differences or photons and all that, but a CCD sensor delivers a much more pleasing image to me when it comes to portraiture. Again, as an artist, that's all I need to know.
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bcooter

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #86 on: December 10, 2013, 02:12:11 am »

The Phase CEO in his interview with Michael Reichmann casually mentioned that the IXR is a glimpse at what the future Phase camera will be like. So I'm thinking the future of medium format is mirrorless too.

Of course, with Mirrorless and EVF comes CMOS, which I am not yet sure I am happy about. Like BC demonstrated many times with his images, I have found that CCD images have a certain quality about them; whatever scientific mumbo jumbo be the reason behind it.

You might be right, because if CCD was the only direction medium format was going, you'd probably see the dealers and reps all over the difference in look.  Instead their somewhat quiet about it.

Maybe they just don't want to get involved and don't know where things are going, but from the Phase CEO's comments I think we all have a good idea that cmos is coming, even to larger formats.

Good thing is if everyone buys into the cmos look, maybe those ccd backs will come down in price.

IMO

BC

BTW:  just one more ccd file from my original digital camera a 6mpx dcs 760
Obviously post processing for effect and NOT to hold highlights or detail, but just for look.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #87 on: December 10, 2013, 02:18:42 am »

Sony sensors have Sony CGAs
that is if you assume that Sony Semiconductor applies the same CFA regardless - if CFA is applied by them then they probably apply the according to spec from the buyer (Sony Imaging, Pentax/Ricoh, Nikon, Olympus, Panasonic /in GH3/etc)... so even if CFA is applied by Sony Semiconductor it is not all the same.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #88 on: December 10, 2013, 02:20:46 am »

Like BC demonstrated many times with his images
which are so heavily postprocessed though, are they not  ::)...
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synn

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #89 on: December 10, 2013, 02:27:24 am »

which are so heavily postprocessed though, are they not  ::)...

I have several portraits from my own CCD Nikons and CMOS Nikons and I see the difference SOOC.
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eronald

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #90 on: December 10, 2013, 03:02:32 am »

I have several portraits from my own CCD Nikons and CMOS Nikons and I see the difference SOOC.

A couple stops underexposure will do wonders for most modern CMOS cameras.

Edmund
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synn

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #91 on: December 10, 2013, 03:10:26 am »

A couple stops underexposure will do wonders for most modern CMOS cameras.

Edmund

As we discussed before, it is not feasible in a high pressure, strobe lit shooting environment where you're working with ratios and lightmeters.
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eronald

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #92 on: December 10, 2013, 03:46:17 am »

As we discussed before, it is not feasible in a high pressure, strobe lit shooting environment where you're working with ratios and lightmeters.

As we discussed before, YOU do not have the wish to do it, but quite a few other users of this forum can.
As we discussed, gelling the lights or using a filter to balance the channels gets you the headroom and solves the problem. A lot of people here can adopt that solution, and then magically the blue channel will clear up, and  the images will "pop".

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 03:53:21 am by eronald »
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synn

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #93 on: December 10, 2013, 03:57:17 am »

As we discussed before, YOU do not have the wish to do it, but quite a few other users of this forum can.
As we discussed, gelling the lights or using a filter to balance the channels gets you the headroom and solves the problem. If you prefer to pay $20K rather than do either of these, that's your privilege; cinema crews routinely work with gelled lights.

Edmund

You can drop the condescending tone. You were replying to my post (Which you quoted), so it is perfectly valid for me to let you know of my perspective.


Cinema crews work with continuous lights. It's not remotely as easy to gel a strobe that's firing through a double diffused octa. And that's just one strobe. And what exactly would that achieve? Yes, I have suddenly halved the power of the strobe. Now it reads one stop lesser on my meter. So what?
Can you gel the sun too? Oh wait, let's double the shutter speed to cut the ambient. Dang, the D800 tops out at 1/320s and I am already there. Ok, let's put an ND filter on the lens. Now an already dim viewfinder is even dimmer! With worse AF!

At this point, I am pretty clear you've never actually done any real on-location strobe lit portraiture work.

That was for one strobe. I am working with multiple strobes. More time spent doing unnecessary workarounds =  less time spent shooting. Not to my best interests.

I prefer to pay whatever to buy the best tool suited for my needs. The D800 isn't it and skin tonality but one reason. I don't have to justify all of them to you unless you're keen on footing the bill.

Or, if you think you can do a better job than me doing what I do with the tools I am currently working with, please show images and not bars and graphs.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 03:59:10 am by synn »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #94 on: December 10, 2013, 04:44:42 am »

I have several portraits from my own CCD Nikons and CMOS Nikons and I see the difference SOOC.

Hi,

As has been explained several times, silicon based sensor arrays are monochrome, and have a roughly panchromatic spectral sensitivity. They are also relatively sensitive to Near Infra-Red light, but that's filtered out.

The color response of silicon based sensor arrays, regardless whether built as CCD or as CMOS device, is determined by the Bayer CFA filter characteristics. Some manufacturers choose to have clearly separated color channels with little overlap, others sacrifice color separation to gain a little sensitivity with les dense and more overlapping color channels.

Then comes the profiling. Now all bets are off in how colors will be rendered, even SOOC. Same file, different Raw converters, different colors. That's not because the sensor suddenly switched form CCD to CMOS, that's ludicrous. Color is created as it is demosaiced and profile converted.

What many do not seem to grasp is that the CCD versus CMOS technologies have other differences that explain why they are predominantly used in certain devices. Traditional CMOS technology is e.g. less suited for large surface sensor arrays where the angle of incident light can vary a lot, e.g. due to Tilt/Shift movements, or traditional lens designs where the exit pupil is relatively close to the sensor array.

That also explains why AA-filters and micro-lenses are rarely used in such camera backs, not because CCD does not need it, they both do, but it may cause other bigger issues than they solve for a particular use. Of course, technology has not stood still, and we'll see new improved designs as time goes by, but the color rendering it has virtually nothing to do with silicon sensor fabrication technology.

Calling the very technology that allows to make technically better images mumbo jumbo is silly, to say the least.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 04:51:31 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #95 on: December 10, 2013, 10:04:49 am »

The color response of silicon based sensor arrays, regardless whether built as CCD or as CMOS device, is determined by the Bayer CFA filter characteristics.
and to some extent by IR/UV cut filter in part of spectrum that are close to what (and how they cut)... then AA filter - is it totally colorless ? for example Ricoh/Pentax considered to use different color profiles in DNG files for K5II and K5IIs (w/o AA filter)...
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #96 on: December 10, 2013, 10:10:52 am »

I have several portraits from my own CCD Nikons and CMOS Nikons and I see the difference SOOC.
in addition to what was replied before... on top of what affects the color above the chip surface you have camera profiles in your raw converter (be it OEM or from a 3rd party) that will bring additional difference... unless you create your own profiles completely from scratch yourself then you are probably using some OEM profiles created like 5-10 years ago for old "CCD" cameras and probably more recent profiles for recent "CMOS" cameras... and I bet they were not created using identical tools/approaches.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #97 on: December 10, 2013, 10:17:06 am »

Color is created as it is demosaiced and profile converted.
typically demosaick is the same, camera color profile is different... developers probably (I allege) rarely revisit the color profiles created long time ago for old cameras to update them for probably better approaches that they might be using for new cameras, more so that that might not be willing to redo old profiles to preserve some compatibility and it rarely makes any sense for them to add new profiles for cameras released 5-10-15+ yearas ago
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #98 on: December 10, 2013, 10:42:04 am »

and to some extent by IR/UV cut filter in part of spectrum that are close to what (and how they cut)...

Yes (especially important for skin color), but the lens also has it's influence. I do not consider those optical modifiers a part of the sensor design (CCD or CMOS) itself.

Quote
then AA filter - is it totally colorless ? for example Ricoh/Pentax considered to use different color profiles in DNG files for K5II and K5IIs (w/o AA filter)...

AFAIK, one of the more frequently used materials is Lithium-Niobate, and it is considered to be colorless. It could of course be produced with a certain doping and there is also a quarter-wave plate between 2 crossed layers involved, and AR coating may be applied to reduce internal reflection and improve transparency.

Cheers,
Bart
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Telecaster

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Re: Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...
« Reply #99 on: December 10, 2013, 05:03:50 pm »

A classic case of techies and creatives talking past each other.

Is it beneficial for photographers to care about the nitty-gritty, at least to some degree? Sure. Is it necessary? Nope.

-Dave-
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