Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...

[pedro39photo]

Lets touch were hurts...The DMF industry have to wake up...and bring the lower MP backs of 40MP to the 5000€ price range.
I love to compose in the viewfinder of the MF cameras, but please what sony accomplish with this exmor 36mp sensor in the 2000$ price range its a revolution, its a game changer.

He still have a Phase and Hassy with a 15years old base body tecnology... ( mamiya 645 and the Fuji AF645) and asking 15.000$ for a entry level model...

The DMF industry have to follow the trends of technology, push the prices down and bring new technology in new models. Just like the 35mm did, the smartphones, the computer industries.

If this not happen, the DMF in the future its just a tool for the rich to show off for the clients.

Its sad, very sad,  i love MF but they just stopped in time.   

[JoeKitchen]

Lets touch were hurts...The DMF industry have to wake up...and bring the lower MP backs of 40MP to the 5000€ price range.
I love to compose in the viewfinder of the MF cameras, but please what sony accomplish with this exmor 36mp sensor in the 2000$ price range its a revolution, its a game changer.

He still have a Phase and Hassy with a 15years old base body tecnology... ( mamiya 645 and the Fuji AF645) and asking 15.000$ for a entry level model...

The DMF industry have to follow the trends of technology, push the prices down and bring new technology in new models. Just like the 35mm did, the smartphones, the computer industries.

If this not happen, the DMF in the future its just a tool for the rich to show off for the clients.

Its sad, very sad,  i love MF but they just stopped in time.   

Art buyers could use the same argument for photographers' prices.  "Look at all of the newer guys in the market, what they can do, and how little they charge." 

[pedro39photo]

Joe i as not talking about talent...i was talking about technology tools....

The jump in photo quality of smartphones killed the pocket cameras segment...
The DMF backs Killed the LF and MF film

And if DMF don´t change the 35mm future 45MP or 50MP sensors will kill the DMF.

I love MF, but i never never could understand why i have to pay a 300$ for a simple Li-on battery, with no CPU or advance memory registry like the news battery from canon or nikon.
Or a 6.000$ phase DF camera with AA batery...

The biggest advantage of MF since de film days was always the quality of the files VS the 35mm...and now we have reach a point we see very small diferences
The biggest differences are the price. 50.000$ Vs 5.000$  and that plus "0" in the professional photo market makes a huge difference.

Thats its just my personal opinion...and sorry my bad English

Pedro

 

[eronald]

Art buyers could use the same argument for photographers' prices.  "Look at all of the newer guys in the market, what they can do, and how little they charge." 

Actually it would seem exactly that has happened.
The top guys are getting paid well for big international campaigns, and the rest are getting by very badly, much worse now than in the days before the Internet, when competition for the medium jobs was more local.

Edmund

[JoeKitchen]

Actually it would seem exactly that has happened.
The top guys are getting paid well for big international campaigns, and the rest are getting by very badly, much worse now than in the days before the Internet, when competition for the medium jobs was more local.

Edmund

I can see the pain here, although I am too young to really know it.  But I feel that this pain could be all just be a matter of business planning and how you view the market.  As a young photographer, I make do pretty well right now and I am not cheap.  (A few years ago, not really, but the recession and all put a damper on things.)  Same thing with my fiancee, who shoots food.  A little less than three years in and she is getting 5 figure food shoots.  Maybe fashion is different; it seems everyone wants to do fashion but ... a small percentage, so it must be harder.  And if you want to be a med end guy with a small local clientele, maybe this has gotten harder.  

But anyway, all I am saying is that we complain about budgets going down hill, but at the same time make villains of Phase and Hassy and etc. for being too expensive and not getting with the times.  Well maybe their business plan is different than how we/you think it is.  Maybe it is well planned and well executed.  Maybe we can learn or should learn from them on how they do it and apply it to our plan.  

Anyway, if we want to look at it from a pure economic standpoint, the 40 mpx sensors have been phased out, so supply is not increasing at all.  But, as it turns out, demand maybe increasing for them.  So why the high price?  Because that is what the market says they can be sold for now.

[pedro39photo]

Please can anyone explain me if one the biggest advantage of the DMF its the big format + big viewfinder ... why in the hell the Phase and the Hassy don´t make a 5.000$ or 7.000$ full frame 28 - 33MP entry level system !!!! to compete with the 35mm systems !!!

Or the high price tag of the DMF its just now a marketing ticket to show to the clients? "i can´t ask for 3.000$ food shoot and make it a d800e"...

[synn]

I will most probably get an A7R next year. But for it to be my MAIN camera?
At 1/160s sync speed, no thanks.

[SecondFocus]

I have said this before...

I was very intrigued with Sony cameras and the idea of having Zeiss glass.

At one of the larger photo industry shows I was checking out the huge Sony display and asked the rep what they had for professional services similar to "Canon Professional Services" or "Nikon Professional Services". I was give a quizzical stare and the rep had a few moments of awkward silence. He then said "let me check". Returning with a more experienced rep, we had a moments pleasantry and then I repeated my inquiry. I was told, to paraphrase... "we do not consider these professional cameras but more for advanced amateurs, so we don't have service like that".

I have to tell you that with that lack of support for me as a working photographer, no matter what the price consideration or megapixels or feature set, I am not interested. And I must say that since that time, I know professionals who are "sponsored" by Sony have endured extended periods of time for service, on the order of 6 weeks. CPS, NPS, Phase One, Leaf, Hasselblad all have special programs for professional photographers who depend on their gear.

[BJL]

... Please can anyone explain me if one the biggest advantage of the DMF its the big format + big viewfinder ... why in the hell the Phase and the Hassy don´t make a 5.000$ or 7.000$ full frame 28 - 33MP entry level system !!!! to compete with the 35mm systems !!!

Lens systems are a major barrier to moving into a new format where competitors are already well established; both the need to design an extensive new array of lenses, and the fact that many people already own lenses for another system in that format. This works the other way too, and is one reason why I think there is very little chance of Canon or Nikon launching a system in a format larger than 36x24mm, or of Pentax or Olympus returning to 36x24mm format now that they have few or no up-to-date lens designs for that format.

[synn]

I have said this before...

I was very intrigued with Sony cameras and the idea of having Zeiss glass.

At one of the larger photo industry shows I was checking out the huge Sony display and asked the rep what they had for professional services similar to "Canon Professional Services" or "Nikon Professional Services". I was give a quizzical stare and the rep had a few moments of awkward silence. He then said "let me check". Returning with amore experienced rep, we had a moments pleasantry and then I repeated my inquiry. I was told, to paraphrase... "we do not consider these professional cameras but more for advanced amateurs, so we don't have service like that".

I have to tell you that with that lack of support for me as a working photographer, no matter what the price consideration or megapixels or feature set, I am not interested. And I must say that since that time, I know professionals who are "sponsored" by Sony have endured extended periods of time for service, on the order of 6 weeks. CPS, NPS, Phase One, Leaf, Hasselblad all have special programs for professional photographers who depend on their gear.

I have heard from more than one person that Sony is planning a comprehensive pro service next year, but I don't think it will cover E mount cameras, only A mount. Time will tell.

Sony Style here already has a decent rental program for the Zeiss lenses at rental rates far lower than that of normal rental houses. Neither Canon or Nikon does the same here, to my knowledge.

[synn]

Lens systems are a major barrier to moving into a new format where competitors are already well established; both the need to design an extensive new array of lenses, and the fact that many people already own lenses for another system in that format. This works the other way too, and is one reason why I think there is very little chance of Canon or Nikon launching a system in a format larger than 36x24mm, or of Pentax or Olympus returning to 36x24mm format now that they have few or no up-to-date lens designs for that format.

The Mamiya DM22 kit is already 10K and during discounts has gone down to below 8K a few times.
Both Steve and Doug can put together something decent at around 7K too, from what I understand.

Of course, older Hassys can be had for 5-6K if you look around. Just don't go down that road with frequent upgrades in mind.

The entry ticket to MFD is not as expensive as most people think; provided one knows about and can live with the limitations of the tech in these older cameras and backs.

[SecondFocus]

I have heard from more than one person that Sony is planning a comprehensive pro service next year, but I don't think it will cover E mount cameras, only A mount. Time will tell.

Sony Style here already has a decent rental program for the Zeiss lenses at rental rates far lower than that of normal rental houses. Neither Canon or Nikon does the same here, to my knowledge.

Canon Professional Services has lenses and bodies available at no cost. I understand Nikon has the same.

[synn]

Canon Professional Services has lenses and bodies available at no cost. I understand Nikon has the same.

To registered professionals, yes. The Sony service I was talking about is open to all Sony camera owners. Not just the ones registered as pros.

[SecondFocus]

To registered professionals, yes. The Sony service I was talking about is open to all Sony camera owners. Not just the ones registered as pros.

"To registered professionals, yes." - Correct... I have been using their services for years.

[bcooter]

Lens systems are a major barrier to moving into a new format where competitors are already well established; both the need to design an extensive new array of lenses, and the fact that many people already own lenses for another system in that format. This works the other way too, and is one reason why I think there is very little chance of Canon or Nikon launching a system in a format larger than 36x24mm, or of Pentax or Olympus returning to 36x24mm format now that they have few or no up-to-date lens designs for that format.

It depends on what you shoot.   I seem to get the feeling that a lot of A7r buyers are buying adapters for their Canon lenses just to get 35 mpx.

For someone like me who uses and needs fast autofocus I'd probably go the A7 which means A mount lenses, to cover the range I have with Canon and if I compare Sony lens prices to my Canon lenses, I'm at around $9,000.   If you go that far into a system you need two bodies, two adapters, two right angle grips so to make a change from Canon to Sony is $14,000. 

Digital film gets expensive.

There are a few things I'm missing on this system.  Why does the 7r sync at 25oth, the 7 at 160th and why not the same focus sensors on both AND why can't they cover 80% of the frame like the olympus em-1?

I think it's a nice camera, but it really seems rushed.  For most I don't think it will stop the sales one bit as they'll either use their own canon lenses and adapters, or buy a couple of the slower e-mount lenses, but if you work professionally, the numbers change drastically.

As mentioned Sony needs a CPS type of service if they're really going to make a dent in Canon and Nikon.   I can send my Canon in for a shutter on Monday, get it back on Thursday at the latest for a low price.

Use to I'd say they need to increase their rental presence, but give that lensrentalsdotcom and borrowlensdotcom exist, the usually cover most formats and brands, so at least their is that option for the one time in two years you need a 400mm lens.

[KevinA]

It depends on what you shoot.   I seem to get the feeling that a lot of A7r buyers are buying adapters for their Canon lenses just to get 35 mpx.

For someone like me who uses and needs fast autofocus I'd probably go the A7 which means A mount lenses, to cover the range I have with Canon and if I compare Sony lens prices to my Canon lenses, I'm at around $9,000.   If you go that far into a system you need two bodies, two adapters, two right angle grips so to make a change from Canon to Sony is $14,000. 

Digital film gets expensive.

There are a few things I'm missing on this system.  Why does the 7r sync at 25oth, the 7 at 160th and why not the same focus sensors on both AND why can't they cover 80% of the frame like the olympus em-1?

I think it's a nice camera, but it really seems rushed.  For most I don't think it will stop the sales one bit as they'll either use their own canon lenses and adapters, or buy a couple of the slower e-mount lenses, but if you work professionally, the numbers change drastically.

As mentioned Sony needs a CPS type of service if they're really going to make a dent in Canon and Nikon.   I can send my Canon in for a shutter on Monday, get it back on Thursday at the latest for a low price.

Use to I'd say they need to increase their rental presence, but give that lensrentalsdotcom and borrowlensdotcom exist, the usually cover most formats and brands, so at least their is that option for the one time in two years you need a 400mm lens.

The price of the Sony compared to a 1D X means you could have plenty of bodies as backup. If you bought the 1DX it will not be because you wanted pixels though, I can see me adding a Sony body or two for when I want pixels, plus an adapter for my lenses.
If I was a Nikon shooter I would be wondering about Nikons core technology being in the hands of an aggressive competitor. Nikons last attempt at sensor design quietly fizzled away didn't it or is the D4 homemade Nikon?
If Sony ever consider themselves as a pro camera maker I can not see them giving first pick to Nikon for Sony future ground breaking tech.
long term Sony probably viewed the tie up with Nikon as a quick means to get a slice of Canon market, if these sensors were only in Sony cameras would we be talking about them as much? Nikon is proving a good springboard for Sony, I wonder how long they need Nikon for?

[BJL]

It depends on what you shoot.   I seem to get the feeling that a lot of A7r buyers are buying adapters for their Canon lenses just to get 35 mpx.

Let me clarify: I was talking about the economic barrier that a camera maker faces if it want to create a successful high quality system in a new format for which it does not yet have lenses (or has only a small selection, as with Pentax's current lenses for 36x24mm format) while competitors in that new format already have well-established lens systems.

Some customers might need only a few lenses, and some might accept using adaptor-mounted lenses from other makers, but for the new system to be commercially viable, it needs (a) to appeal to a sufficient number of high end users, by offering a sufficient variety of lenses, and (b) to generate profits on lens sales, which is not helped by generating profits for competitors through sales of their lenses to be used with adaptors.

36x24mm is not a new format size for Sony, and it already has plenty of its own A-mount lenses suitable for use with the A7R and A7, so I am sure it plans on selling a good number of Sony and Zeiss/Sony lenses for use on this new line of cameras, not just selling adaptors for using Canon and Nikon lenses.

[BJL]

Nikon is proving a good springboard for Sony, I wonder how long they need Nikon for?

People have been saying things like this since the Nikon D100, speculating that Sony might someday cut off its supplies of sensors to Nikon. There has been no hint of a move in that direction, or even of Sony cutting of the far smaller Pentax, and indeed Sony has recently expanded to also to making sensors in 4/3" format for Olympus (and maybe for Panasonic) even though Sony has no use in own products for those 4/3" sensors.

It seems clear that Sony's sensor division is happy for the profits and economies of scale it gets from selling sensors to any camera maker that wants them, especially in the case of Nikon, which is a far larger market for "SLR-sized" sensors than Sony's own camera division.

With Nikon having several other sensor making partners (Toshiba for some SLR's, Aptina for Nikon One), the risks might even be in the other direction: that Nikon would rather shift its sensor sources to companies that are not competing against its cameras.

[eronald]

if these sensors were only in Sony cameras would we be talking about them as much? Nikon is proving a good springboard for Sony, I wonder how long they need Nikon for?

Not any longer - the D800 has set the scene.   

Edmund

[bcooter]

If Sony ever consider themselves as a pro camera maker I can not see them giving first pick to Nikon for Sony future ground breaking tech.
l

if you talk to anyone who sells cameras, the pro still camera market is not high on their list, at least not the most important.

The makers feature professionals to get people to "think" every pro uses one, but that's not their intended market.

Pros come in all shapes and forms, some never owning anything, the new breed of Millenials thinking a 5d2 is their big camera, do others that own 200 lenses.

My point Sony just wants to sell cameras and not one to one customer but a few cameras to a bunch of customers.

What they did with the A7 is really not groundbreaking, it's just ground breaking in regards to price.  22 mpx in a new camera for half the price of a 5d2 is what is ground breaking, same with the a7r vs. the d800.

IMO

BC