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Author Topic: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way  (Read 74407 times)

Chairman Bill

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Re: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way
« Reply #160 on: November 05, 2013, 06:17:36 am »

Yes, I'm sure the Nikon Df camera will be full of hybrid vigour & all that jazz.

I'm not. As I said, the analogy soon breaks down

BJL

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Nikon Df and its many locking knobs
« Reply #161 on: November 05, 2013, 06:26:08 am »

I will try to see where the Df makes practical sense for some people: the 16MP D4 sensor might have some edge in low light over 16MP downsampling from the higher resolution sensor of the far less expensive D610, and some people will like all the single-purpose locked setting knobs labelled with the values they set. And a few might own so many ancient pre-Ai lenses that the Df is more cost effective than getting some newer lenses, if manual focusing through a modern 0.7x non split-screen VF is OK.

But as to the "everything accessible without menus" concept: plenty of other cameras offer that, with settings done by rotating one of several soft dials, in some cases while pressing a button (say for exposure index, aka "ISO"). The Df also requires pressing a button along with rotating a dial due to the locks. Maybe it comes down to whether you want the option to adjust settings while looking through the VF (difficult on the Df) or want the option to make them with the rear screen off and eye away from the VF (not possible on most other modern cameras).
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 11:26:43 am by BJL »
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #162 on: November 05, 2013, 06:48:09 am »

I will try to see where the Df makes practical sense for some people: the 16MP D4 sensor might have some edge in low light over 16MP downsampling from the higher resolution sensor of the far less expensive D610, and some people will like all the single-purpose locked setting knobs labelled with the values they set. And a few might own so many ancient pre-Ai lenses that the Df is more cost effective than getting some newer lenses, if manual focusing through a modern 0.7x non split-screen VF is OK.

But as to the "everything accessible without menus" concept: plenty of other cameras offer that, with settings done by rotating one of several soft dials, in some cases while pressing a button (say for exposure index, aka "ISO"). The Df also requires pressing a button along with rotating a dial due to the locks. Maybe it comes down to whether you want the option to adjust settings while looking through the VF (difficult on the Df) or want the option to make them with the rear screen off and eye away from the VF (not possible on most other modern cameras).


Yep - the devil is in the details. I think we'll have to see until people have actually used that camera and compared out of practical experience. We will soon know if the user interface is going to be liked or if it is just a marketing gag missing the important details.

After all one question is in my mind:

If there were a Camera with the exact features like the D800, just with a User Interface designed like the DF:
Assuming same price and features (including video):
Would you people prefer the D800 as it is or a redesigned one á la Df ?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 06:49:54 am by Christoph C. Feldhaim »
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Chairman Bill

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #163 on: November 05, 2013, 06:53:11 am »

Would you people prefer the D800 as it is or a redesigned one á la Df ?

I'd go for the Df style over the current D800 build, but I'd want a built-in viewfinder cover, not the silly piece of plastic on a leash

TMARK

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Re: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way
« Reply #164 on: November 05, 2013, 07:15:19 am »

I'm sure the boys and girls in Solms are celebrating.
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bcooter

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #165 on: November 05, 2013, 07:20:29 am »

I'd go for the Df style over the current D800 build, but I'd want a built-in viewfinder cover, not the silly piece of plastic on a leash


Yea that's kind of a cheap out, but so is 16mpx, they must have had an overbuy on chips.

Anyway, it's not a bad looking camera, and I think it's 1000 % better than the star trek phaser look Nikons had gone to, but I bet when Olympus looks at this camera and the Sony,  I'll bet they want to kick themselves for not making a little bit larger e-m5.

I dunno about retro. I'd like a less menu driven world, but I don't really want to go back and use a blackberry either, because if I did I would have.

But then again as much as looks matter and sex sells, when I look at all the cameras I own from Canons, Contax, Leicas, Nikons, REDs, Panasonics and the Olympus, I spend more time with those blob looking gh3's because there the most capable cameras I've ever owned.

If my omd e-m5 (i think that's how your suppose to say it other than omd 1 or 2 or 3,) did what the gh3's did I'd buy a box of them.



Maybe doing more is important, but I guess that's the point, what are you going to do with this df camera you couldn't do before?

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 07:41:56 am by bcooter »
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way
« Reply #166 on: November 05, 2013, 07:29:31 am »

Overall I think Nikon have tried too hard and over designed this camera.
They have put too much stuff on there, from the top it's an old school (mostly) design with dials which is great bar the PASM switch is awkward and poorly placed IMO.
Then on the back they've basically slapped a D600/D7000 style rear control layout.

It's an awkward attempt to blend modern with traditional it's control overload and way OTT IMO.
I appreciate it's an SLR and something like Fuji's X range is not perfect handling wise, but they seem to have been able to bring the retro theme to the market better without complete control overload.

I know a modern camera has to have more settings for stuff that just wasn't around back in ye oldie days, but in my view "less is more"
They should have streamlined the controls much much more than they have.

As it is right now they've basically thrown everything at it and hope it sticks, I don't think it works or will work for most people.
Price wise I got my email from WEX todays (UK seller)

£2749 with a 50mm f1.8 lens

This is DOA no question, didn't expect budget bargain prices, but it's just another overpriced full frame body trying to cash in on retro done poorly.
Nikon would have been far better off going for a much simpler design, or just scrap it and give people a budget FF DSLR which might actually sell!

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TMARK

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #167 on: November 05, 2013, 07:48:07 am »


D800 interface is fine. It's the viewfinder I want from Nikon's film days. A good screen and .76 at least. I'm tired of the cheap seats with .7 magnification and plastic screens. I don't want a 1ds3/D4 style behemoth or a kludge mfd behemoth. I don't want a freeze framed stuttering EVF. The old style VF is all the retro I need.

Yep - the devil is in the details. I think we'll have to see until people have actually used that camera and compared out of practical experience. We will soon know if the user interface is going to be liked or if it is just a marketing gag missing the important details.

After all one question is in my mind:

If there were a Camera with the exact features like the D800, just with a User Interface designed like the DF:
Assuming same price and features (including video):
Would you people prefer the D800 as it is or a redesigned one á la Df ?

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JohnBrew

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #168 on: November 05, 2013, 08:13:27 am »

D800 interface is fine. It's the viewfinder I want from Nikon's film days. A good screen and .76 at least. I'm tired of the cheap seats with .7 magnification and plastic screens. I don't want a 1ds3/D4 style behemoth or a kludge mfd behemoth. I don't want a freeze framed stuttering EVF. The old style VF is all the retro I need.
Bjorn Rorslett has one in hand at the moment. He states that while the viewfinder is not from the old film cameras it is better than the one in the D800.

Chairman Bill

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Re: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way
« Reply #169 on: November 05, 2013, 08:16:58 am »

US price is $2999 (with new lens)

UK price is £2749 (also with new lens - no body-only option here)

Given the current exchange rate, the UK price should be about £1,800. Even allowing for 20% VAT (sales tax), we're being ripped off. Again.

hjulenissen

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Re: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way
« Reply #170 on: November 05, 2013, 08:40:38 am »

I don't get this camera. Is it a low-light street-shooter for the fashion-conscious (or those old enough to reminisce about the good old days)? Is it a DSLR-centric manufacturers response to successful (?) retro/rangefinder-esque models from MILF manufacturers? Is it about nikon having a large bin of D4 sensors that they wanted to monetize?

-h
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Chairman Bill

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Re: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way
« Reply #171 on: November 05, 2013, 08:58:20 am »

Is it about nikon having a large bin of D4 sensors that they wanted to monetize?

If it was just that, a cheaper D600 variant would have sufficed

scooby70

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #172 on: November 05, 2013, 09:36:21 am »

D800 interface is fine. It's the viewfinder I want from Nikon's film days. A good screen and .76 at least. I'm tired of the cheap seats with .7 magnification and plastic screens. I don't want a 1ds3/D4 style behemoth or a kludge mfd behemoth. I don't want a freeze framed stuttering EVF. The old style VF is all the retro I need.

Every time I read a comment like this I wonder if the poster has actually tried a recent EVF equipped camera. I suspect they haven't.
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TMARK

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Re: Digital Nikon FM2 on his way
« Reply #173 on: November 05, 2013, 09:44:17 am »

Looked at DPreview.  It seems silly.  I'm not bashing it, but . . . The good and functional aspects of the F3/F4 and even FM series are missing:

1. Its big compared to the film cameras.
2. Locking dials on the F4 were a pain in the ass.  I disabled a few on my F4 bodies.
3. Plastic matte screen and .7 magnification IS NOT WHAT IS NEEDED TO FOCUS a manual focus lens.  Even the lowly 5D2 had interchangeable screens that were effective.
4. Non-interchangeable screen.
5. While you can mount a non-AI lens, you have to set the exposure on the camera using the camera meter, then set the F-Stop.

Where a throwback design would be a benefit the Df does not deliver.  For me.  I hope they sell a bunch.



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TMARK

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #174 on: November 05, 2013, 09:47:46 am »

I have nothiong against EVFs.  The most recent EVF I tried was an X100s.  I hear lots of good things about the Olympus EVF, the new one that is really large.  If I was interested in 4/3 maybe I'd look at it, but I'm not interested in 4/3.  Many people I respect are all about 4/3, including the Cooter.  If I were still working as a shooter I would consider it.  As it stands, I like a larger sensor.

Every time I read a comment like this I wonder if the poster has actually tried a recent EVF equipped camera. I suspect they haven't.
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #175 on: November 05, 2013, 09:49:02 am »

Every time I read a comment like this I wonder if the poster has actually tried a recent EVF equipped camera. I suspect they haven't.

Which ones though?
I have an SLT model and have used quite a few from Sony's range there are some advantages, and some disadvantages to the concept.
Manual focus is great with peaking and magnify.

Definition is not up to a decent pentaprism viewfinder no EVF I've used can match the detail of an OVF
Biggest EVF issue so far is in bright contrasty light, you just can't see the subject properly (esp a problem for fill flash shots) DR of EVF's leaves much to be desired.

Using an EVF is "ok" at times, it has some good points. I can't say my EVF experiences make me want to not use a good OVF though.
In many cases with some experience you simply don't really need the histograms and live feed WB etc, but you DO NEED to be able to see your subject clearly.

It's a real mixed bag.
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bcooter

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #176 on: November 05, 2013, 09:49:36 am »

D800 interface is fine. It's the viewfinder I want from Nikon's film days. A good screen and .76 at least. I'm tired of the cheap seats with .7 magnification and plastic screens. I don't want a 1ds3/D4 style behemoth or a kludge mfd behemoth. I don't want a freeze framed stuttering EVF. The old style VF is all the retro I need.

T I think you want something nobody is going to make.  Probably your m9 is the last one.  

The EVF's are getting better, Pansonics evf is great, though not as detailed, everyone else seems to jump around a little.

Really I'm beyond hoping for a step back because I find all ovf's suck, even the biggest which is the H system because it bends the view.

I drone on about it, but the interface of the gh3 is tremendous.  On my right  hand I can set wb, +- corrections, focus points, iso, shutter and f stop, (which at micro 43 should just be set at wide open al the time.)
and never take my eye off the finder all with buttons that are labeled wb, +-, and iso.  

Pretty cool, very fast, I can manually focus, though don't need to because the focus points cover every segment of the screen, the face detection is freaky good, the track focus also very good.

Still, I like pretty stuff, wish olympus would up the file quality, especially in video, do a little better high iso without going painterly and stick with the omd 5 look as that camera feels better built than my m8 and is a lot more usable.

But if I was a walk through the fields guy or a street photographer I'd do the Olympus way before I'd buy the fm digital because it shoots pretty much the same file, the Olympus I think is even a little prettier in tone and color than nikon color for skin tones and the oly is small enough to carry around and the lenses are dead sharp and cheap.

Even that panasonic shown here has a 200 to 600mm 35mm equivalent lens, the Olympus with the 25mm lecia 1.4 is a 50mm equivalent and freaky good.



IMO

BC
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 09:55:35 am by bcooter »
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TMARK

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #177 on: November 05, 2013, 09:54:36 am »

The X100s EVF is OK, but I find it distracting.  That may also be the issue of looking through the OVF and switching to EVF, which is jarring. I would REALLY like an EVF to work for me, and I'm sure it will sometime soon as the manufacturers of 35mm and smaller cameras seem to have abandoned the OVF.

Which ones though?
I have an SLT model and have used quite a few from Sony's range there are some advantages, and some disadvantages to the concept.
Manual focus is great with peaking and magnify.

Definition is not up to a decent pentaprism viewfinder no EVF I've used can match the detail of an OVF
Biggest EVF issue so far is in bright contrasty light, you just can't see the subject properly (esp a problem for fill flash shots) DR of EVF's leaves much to be desired.

Using an EVF is "ok" at times, it has some good points. I can't say my EVF experiences make me want to not use a good OVF though.
In many cases with some experience you simply don't really need the histograms and live feed WB etc, but you DO NEED to be able to see your subject clearly.

It's a real mixed bag.
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bcooter

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #178 on: November 05, 2013, 10:01:46 am »

The X100s EVF is OK, but I find it distracting.  That may also be the issue of looking through the OVF and switching to EVF, which is jarring. I would REALLY like an EVF to work for me, and I'm sure it will sometime soon as the manufacturers of 35mm and smaller cameras seem to have abandoned the OVF.


The Fuji's are jittery, others aren't but your not used to them.  Really every camera has something you have to work around.  It is a brain strain to focus my Contax for a day if I work manually, the leica is ok, but I get tired of the focus in the middle thing and then try to compensate and anything past 50mm is almost impossible.

I guess I could go on because every camera has a workaround.

I'd call lens rentals or borrow lens and rent a system for a week and go shoot.  After the first few days of "what's up", it becomes normal, in fact so normal than when I go from my gh3's to the canon 1dx which has great autofocus I keep changing the exposure and wb thinking I'm going to see it in the viewfinder.

It just takes a while to get use to stuff.

The thing about the em5 is today it cost about 800 bucks and your leica lenses will fit on it and actually work.  The mft 43 oly lenses are fast and cost less than flat tire.

IMO

BC

Vladimirovich

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Re: Nikon Df and it's many locking knobs
« Reply #179 on: November 05, 2013, 10:12:02 am »

but you DO NEED to be able to see your subject clearly.
why do you need to do see it more clearly than EVF can provide (specifically when you can zoom in @ focus point)... it can't be for focusing, CDAF w/ CDAF designed lenses does not miss  (unless you are using gigantic focus spots instead of proper small ones) - I am yet to encounter a missed one after 3 years with GH2/GH3 and now E-M1, no matter what is the light or where in the frame I was focusing.
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