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Author Topic: Copyrights and stuff essay  (Read 22336 times)

theguywitha645d

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2012, 09:58:23 am »

Boy, we have some strange ideas about copyright. Plagiarism is not a copyright violation. Ideas cannot be copyrighted, neither can data--I can make a photography using hands for a world, what I can't do is setup my shot to exactly copy what Schewe has done (proving I had no knowledge of a previous work is another matter, but artist have been sued over derivative works--the Obama Hope poster is a resent example. A work is original in that it is not a copy, not that it happens to have the same subject and style of another--If I photograph Yosemite from Tunnel Lookout I am creating an original work. A derivative work, a work based on a previous work, must first secure the copyright of the original, but the creator of a derivative also has copyright over that expression (but never the original).

Copyright protects the expression of an individual from exploitation from society. Uniqueness is not a criteria for a work. Nor does society have the right to exploit members because they were inspired by other members or works within that society nor from another society. Society does not make works of art and therefore has no moral rights over them.

I work in a college. Most of the folks I work with have a greater understanding of copyright than most people.
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JimU

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2012, 10:06:07 am »

I have my photos stolen regularly, and it is only of crappy lenses in B&S forums.  It really pisses me off.
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JackS

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2012, 10:20:27 am »

I'm unclear on the use of © AlainBriot.com copyright notice that he uses on his images.

Alain Briot holds the copyright for his images, when does a web site (© AlainBriot.com) obtain ownership of the copyright. Does he not have to transfer the copyright to his dot.com for that notice to be correct?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that © AlainBriot.com is not the same person as Alain Briot when it comes to the legal system.
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theguywitha645d

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2012, 10:26:54 am »

I'm unclear on the use of © AlainBriot.com copyright notice that he uses on his images.

Alain Briot holds the copyright for his images, when does a web site (© AlainBriot.com) obtain ownership of the copyright. Does he not have to transfer the copyright to his dot.com for that notice to be correct?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that © AlainBriot.com is not the same person as Alain Briot when it comes to the legal system.

The notice is irrelevant in this case. The person using it clearly did not have copyright--while they can use it in class, they can't use it for promoting an organizational event. (Copyright is automatically assigned to the creator and so you have to assume copyright ownership to someone.)

But you are right that the notice would not be correct in identifying the owner unless ownership had been transferred to the web site. The notice is also missing a date. You could also assume that it is just stating the image is copyrighted and the site is the contact location for usage.
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dreed

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2012, 11:09:21 am »

In a day and age where the MPAA/RIAA are issuing copyright infringement notices to every man and his dog for using tools like BitTorrent and are pushing heavily for the US Government to treat copyright infringement as a felony with the government also stepping in to police it, anyone who claims to be ignorant of copyright issues is either being deceiptful or living in a tent.

It's a somewhat sad reflection of the world today that limiting ourselves to uploading nothing more than 600 wide or tall is the best we can do to protect ourselves from copyright infringement. It's what I've always done for the very reason that Alain has found out: if you don't, people will use it. I've never had that problem but then again, I don't invite it either. In a conversation with one of my friends on this, the suggestion to put watermarks in the image was scoffed at as people will just as readily remove those as they did Alain's copyright in the image.

But if you consider what's happening in the greater world with photographs and copyright - every photograph uploaded to websites such as picasa/facebook gives the website perpetual rights to use that image however they wish.

So whilst the populace at large on the Internet is being desensitised to copyright ownership as it applies to images, there are well paid lawyers and folks doing lobbying trying very hard to get copyright penalties increased, etc, to try and shore up the walls of a failing business model.

With respect to "(C) AlainBriot.com", if "AlainBriot.com" is a legal entity then it can be a copyright owner. If "AlainBriot.com" is a registered Internet domain name and nothing else that that copyright notice is somewhat meaningless.

Right now, "AlainBriot.com" is not a registered business name in Arizona, so if I were a malicious person, I could login to the relevant website, register the name, pay a fee and then all of the images that are marked with "(C) AlainBriot.com" would belong to me for any trade done in Arizona. It would be a very interesting (and expensive!) matter for lawyers to discuss if he has registered them with the Library of Congress under a different name.

I suspect that Alain still has some learning to do with how to properly use copyright marks.
A domain name by itself is not a legal entity and cannot be used in a copyright message.

If the image in question that got Alain upset was so marked then how has the student done anything wrong? They've removed a copyright notice that was invalid. So it is arguable about whether or not a crime was committed.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Universal_Copyright_Convention#Article_III:
1. Any Contracting State which, under its domestic law, requires as a condition of copyright, compliance with formalities such as deposit, registration, notice, notarial certificates, payment of fees or manufacture or publication in that Contracting State, shall regard these requirements as satisfied with respect to all works protected in accordance with this Convention and first published outside its territory and the author of which is not one of its nationals, if from the time of the first publication all the copies of the work published with the authority of the author or other copyright proprietor bear the symbol © accompanied by the name of the copyright proprietor and the year of first publication placed in such manner and location as to give reasonable notice of claim of copyright.

I'll repeat again, at present, "AlainBriot.com" does not appear to be a proprietor in Arizona and nor is any mention on alainbriot.com made to there being any company name registered in another state (such as Delaware.) Therefore you could argue that "© AlainBriot.com" does not refer to the name of a proprietor and is thus not a valid copyright stamp, rendering the copyright invalid/unenforceable.

I'll add that I'm not a lawyer but having worked in the software industry, I have been trained to be careful about how I use a statement of copyright.

Finally, I'll ask one question: was an intellectual property lawyer consulted in the drafting or editing process of the article?

Because parts of this article amount to the offering of legal advice by someone that is clearly not a lawyer and clearly has insufficient schooling in copyright matters. One might wonder if Alain and/or Michael could be sued (for providing what is questionable legal advice regarding copyright matters without making any statement about their capability to do so) if you followed Alain's advice and found yourself thinking you had a valid copyright stamp but in fact did not.

This is a serious matter (not waffling on about image resolution or composition) and attention to detail is mandatory.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 11:48:40 am by dreed »
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Faintandfuzzy

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2012, 11:21:16 am »

I'm curious.  Maybe I missed it somewhere....but what happened.  As far as I can tell, the teacher hung up on him and nothing else has been done. 
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MikeMac

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2012, 11:22:18 am »

I've had my custom website ripped off twice, that I know off.
In the first instance it was also for a conference. I found out as an attendee to the conference also regularly visited my website. I contacted the conference agency and they denied that this was the case and that there were any similarities between the sites, even though they were nearly identical. It went back and forth for a while, then I got my web designer involved and he started pulling out chunks of code (some of which still included my name) and hex colour values which were identical. The site changed pretty quickly after that.
The second instance was for a Swiss pharma company. It was a real pain as they had used my google analytics code so it totally screwed up my own analytics. We tried contacting them by email and phone and never got any reply. Very strange. I the end I got a little scared that they never answered the phone, thought maybe gangsters or something, so left it well alone. Probably still there!

To be fair to students, I get a lot of polite emails from students asking if they may use my photographs for projects. I'm sure there are many more that don't ask, but some at least have the decency to ask and i will always say yes.

In this day and age, where universities and colleges are often run as businesses first and institutions of learning second, then copyright/IP law should be part of teacher/lecturer training. Ignorance is no excuse.

I find the way photographers complain about copyright infringement wonderfully humorous!
As a small business owner I don't find it that humorous at all, although I understand some of your views even if I don't agree with many of them. If you want to understand what it is like to run a small creative business, where you have to do everything with only 24 hours in the day and still do other stuff like spending time with friends and family, then have a look at this blog post that describes the reality for many small businesses, photography and otherwise:
http://zackarias.com/for-photographers/discussion/top-10-ways-to-become-a-professional-photographer/
I agree with his conclusion about it being great fun, but after all that work why would someone thinks it is OK to use your work without payment. Perhaps you could explain what is humorous.
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MikeMac

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2012, 11:31:25 am »

If the image in question that got Alain upset was so marked then how has the student done anything wrong? They've removed a copyright notice that was invalid. So it is arguable about whether or not a crime was committed.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Universal_Copyright_Convention#Article_III:


This is a serious matter (waffling on about image resolution or composition) and attention to detail is mandatory.

I think there are some great points in there, really useful reading. As I have just written in another post, ignorance is no excuse and this applies as much to creators as well as 'thieves'.

What upsets me about it is that you are quite correct, that is, even if you hold the moral high ground (are the creator of the work), if you do something wrong legally or fail to do something then you lose out. Something about following the letter of the law rather than the intent. OK, OK, I know it is such a naive view, but this situation still upsets me.
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2012, 11:48:32 am »

Not being a graphic designer myself I wouldn't set myself up as an expert on poster art.  However I do seem to remember once being taught not to use too many fonts when designing any publication.  On this count alone I cannot see how the student who did this poster ever won first prize!  Great picture though.

Jim
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Rajan Parrikar

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2012, 11:54:46 am »

Facebook has made it really easy for people to lift images.  I have had people taking images off my blog and posting it to their walls, passing them off as their own.  Not links to the blog posts mind you (which is perfectly fine) but the images themselves.  And since Google does not index Facebook entries, the only way I found out was when friends recognized them and alerted me.  Facebook did delete them after I complained, but it is a hopeless situation.  In most cases you won't even know of the violation.

dreed

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2012, 12:32:57 pm »

But if you consider what's happening in the greater world with photographs and copyright - every photograph uploaded to websites such as picasa/facebook gives the website perpetual rights to use that image however they wish.

Perpetual is the wrong word here for facebook. Their intellectual property terms are [https://www.facebook.com/legal/terms]:

You own all of the content and information you post on Facebook, and you can control how it is shared through your privacy and application settings. In addition:

   1. For content that is covered by intellectual property rights, like photos and videos (IP content), you specifically give us the following permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with Facebook (IP License). This IP License ends when you delete your IP content or your account unless your content has been shared with others, and they have not deleted it.


For picasa (owned by Google) [http://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/terms/]:
When you upload or otherwise submit content to our Services, you give Google (and those we work with) a worldwide license to use, host, store, reproduce, modify, create derivative works (such as those resulting from translations, adaptations or other changes we make so that your content works better with our Services), communicate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display and distribute such content. The rights you grant in this license are for the limited purpose of operating, promoting, and improving our Services, and to develop new ones. This license continues even if you stop using our Services (for example, for a business listing you have added to Google Maps). Some Services may offer you ways to access and remove content that has been provided to that Service. Also, in some of our Services, there are terms or settings that narrow the scope of our use of the content submitted in those Services. Make sure you have the necessary rights to grant us this license for any content that you submit to our Services.
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Isaac

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2012, 01:47:55 pm »

They Are Stealing Our Work! -- "Using flash or a transparent layer over the image works only in regards to preventing theft done by dragging your image to their desktop.  However, it does not prevent the viewer from doing a screenshot (Command 3 or 4 on a Mac) and making a copy of your images that way.  The quality is just as good downloading the image."

The image already has been copied and downloaded - that's how someone views your images on their computer across the internet!

The local copies of the downloaded images are cached in well-known locations.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 02:08:02 pm by Isaac »
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fike

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2012, 01:51:13 pm »

The only way to prevent digital "theft" is to not put it on the web.  There are no fail-safe ways to prevent people from duplicating your digital files from the web, save perhaps substantially defacing them with watermarks and such which defeats the purpose.  You can't win your war on infringement by trying to fight that battle. 
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John Camp

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2012, 01:57:10 pm »

What I would have done if I were Alain is, I would have let it go (which he suggests is one possibility.)

The fact is, it's one school with a minor conference that nobody's paying attention to. And Jeff is wrong about one thing - if Alain took it to court, he wouldn't wind up owning the school. There'd be a jury and a lot of excuses and hung heads, and the jury would award Alain $250 but they would NOT award him attorney's fees, because they'd have more sympathy for the school ("It was just done by a kid") than for some fruity artist from the Southwest, and so, in my opinion, Alain would have wound up losing his shirt over a minor manner. That's what happens when you put images on the Internet; it's just part of the business. Note that I'm not saying that it SHOULD be part of the business, it just is. Now, if the image is ripped off by United Airlines, and used in a major advertising campaign, that's an entirely different matter.

I'm an author, I currently publish two novels a year, more than 30 total now, and every one of them has been on the New York Times bestseller list. A bunch of them, including my last one, have gone to #1. Within days of publication, you can download a complete text of the newest book from (apparently) a website in Russia. I suspect this enterprise is costing me thousands of sales, though I couldn't prove it. I can do *nothing* about it. I don't even know if the government could, if they were inclined to try. But, it's just something you live with. Instead of getting (too) pissed off, I just write another one.

Oh, by the way -- if you go to Google images and put my pseudonym in, you'll find hundreds of images, taken off book covers, and from snapshots made at signings, and such. I don't think any of them are authorized. If a book review website decides to review one of my books, they simply scan a cover and load it up. I don't care, but if somebody did, what could you possibly do about it that wouldn't be a total waste of your time? The guy who does it is living in his mom's basement, hoping to save enough money for a new bicycle tire. You're going to sue him?

JC      
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JackS

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2012, 02:28:34 pm »

Posted by dreed

"If the image in question that got Alain upset was so marked then how has the student done anything wrong? They've removed a copyright notice that was invalid. So it is arguable about whether or not a crime was committed."

The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) has seperate fines and Penalty for removal of any copyright notice and then copyright violation.

I guess that was my question and point. So if this "(C) AlainBriot.com" is not the owner of the copyright then any removal or change would not be a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. If Alain Briot still holds the copyright then it would be important for the copyright notice to be correct.

 
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 02:51:57 pm by JackS »
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Isaac

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2012, 02:37:27 pm »

... perhaps substantially defacing them with watermarks and such which defeats the purpose.

SignMyImage (also Vericuff) - "Protect your images from copying by invisible watermarking."

« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 02:47:03 pm by Isaac »
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David Hufford

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2012, 02:57:46 pm »

....With respect to "(C) AlainBriot.com", if "AlainBriot.com" is a legal entity then it can be a copyright owner. If "AlainBriot.com" is a registered Internet domain name and nothing else that that copyright notice is somewhat meaningless....

....If the image in question that got Alain upset was so marked then how has the student done anything wrong? They've removed a copyright notice that was invalid. So it is arguable about whether or not a crime was committed....

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Universal_Copyright_Convention#Article_III:
1. Any Contracting State which, under its domestic law, requires as a condition of copyright, compliance with formalities such as deposit, registration, notice, notarial certificates, payment of fees or manufacture or publication in that Contracting State, shall regard these requirements as satisfied with respect to all works protected in accordance with this Convention and first published outside its territory and the author of which is not one of its nationals, if from the time of the first publication all the copies of the work published with the authority of the author or other copyright proprietor bear the symbol © accompanied by the name of the copyright proprietor and the year of first publication placed in such manner and location as to give reasonable notice of claim of copyright.

I'll repeat again, at present, "AlainBriot.com" does not appear to be a proprietor in Arizona and nor is any mention on alainbriot.com made to there being any company name registered in another state (such as Delaware.) Therefore you could argue that "© AlainBriot.com" does not refer to the name of a proprietor and is thus not a valid copyright stamp, rendering the copyright invalid/unenforceable....


This is referring to international copyright. Alain is writing about domestic violation isn't he?

US copyright law is here: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

Partially quoting from Chapt 4 Sec401: Notice of copyright; visually perceptible copies
Quote
"Whenever a work protected by this title is published in the United States or elsewhere by the authority of the copyright owner, a notice of copyright as provided by this section may be placed on publicly distributed copies...

(b) FORM OF NOTICE---If a notice appears on the copies, it shall consist of the following three elements:
   1 The symbol © or the word "copyright" or "copr." and
   2 The year of first publication of the work....
   3 The name of the owner of the copyright in the work, or an abbreviation by which the name can be recognized, or a generally known alternative designation of the owner"

The "may" and "If"---which I have placed in bold---means, of course, that the copyright notice is not a requirement for a valid copyright. I don't see anything that would indicate that if one does place a copyright notice that does not follow the above, that the improperly made copyright notice would invalidate the copyright. A correctly written copyright notice, does however, eliminate any defense of innocent infringement. (Sect 401(d) Evidentiary weight of notice)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 03:33:38 pm by David Hufford »
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Isaac

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2012, 03:15:22 pm »

I'll ask one question: was an intellectual property lawyer consulted in the drafting or editing process of the article?

The Picture Archive Council of America provides Copyright Education materials authored by their legal counsel.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 05:46:49 pm by Isaac »
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bobbyv1

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2012, 03:32:08 pm »

"You plagiarized my work and used it for commercial purposes" -- God(s)

Will all due respect to the author, whose pictures and writing I admire:

I agree with Mr. Camp that it's not worth the bother. Feel happy an image inspires people and brightens up what would otherwise be a dreary poster for a small event. The university didn't handle it well, but the part that really sucks is that she didn't apologize or give the author the opportunity to offer the image as a free gift. That's the sore spot, and the reason the article even came to be.

I've been a print and Web designer for 15 years. I don't steal hero shots. On the other hand, when I need a garden variety image for incorporation into a design like a concrete texture, a cloud sky, some grass, a fork, etc., I go to google images, not Corbis. For everything else, there's me, there's iStock, there's my freelancers. I have good friends who earn a living making photos every bit as good as this one, and some have a hard time paying the bills these days, so I have a lot of sympathy for the changing reality of photography-for-a-living.

Copyright is a brief, irrelevant phenomenon in the grand sceme of things. On one end, there's the fact that you have billions of years of Earth being around and doing its thing so you can feel proud about a landscape photo you snapped. On the other end of the commons equation, there's the Internet -- the largest project ever undertaken by humans -- which you have at your disposal, also with relatively little personal investment. Framed this way, the desire to capitalize on the situation maximally is very... capitalist. Kind of like someone who thinks it's his right to strip-mine a mountain because a piece of paper somewhere says the mountain belongs to him. And then, chasing down someone who "stole" a rock for his rock collection.

This year I'm publishing a book for event organizers. To lure them to my for-profit book Web site, I'm giving away free stock photography I commissioned (for use in flyers/Web/posters), and I'm giving away a bunch of event flyer/poster templates I spent hours designing. Get creative, roll with the punches, and enjoy all the amazing opportunities available to us.

$0.02
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Copyrights and stuff essay
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2012, 04:08:59 pm »

... Copyright is a brief, irrelevant phenomenon in the grand sceme of things. On one end, there's the fact that you have billions of years of Earth being around...

Right, but I am not (that long around)... thus copyright is NOT irrelevant in MY scheme of things.

Quote
... the Internet -- the largest project ever undertaken by humans -- which you have at your disposal, also with relatively little personal investment...

That sounds like the Internet is some sort of immaculate conception? In fact, it is a result of millions of "personal investments", some less, some more, some on the supply side, some on the demand. In that respect, Alain, as well as you and I, have our "personal investments" there. By creating his website, Alain both personally contributed to the demand for the Internet, as well as contributed to the supply of content on it, without which there would be no increased demand by other users.

Quote
... Framed this way, the desire to capitalize on the situation maximally is very... capitalist. Kind of like someone who thinks it's his right to strip-mine a mountain because a piece of paper somewhere says the mountain belongs to him...

Hell, yeah!

Quote
...  And then, chasing down someone who "stole" a rock for his rock collection...

Hell, yeah!
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