Teaching the Monkey

[Rob C]

We've often had the argument about whether one can be taught how to be an artist and not simply a technician.

Now dig this:

"He told Radio Times: “I used to point out at art school, you can teach the craft, it’s the poetry you can’t teach. But now they try to teach the poetry and not the craft.” "

I quote David Hockney.

Rob C

[RSL]

That's been going on for a long time, Rob. I remember some of the crap I used to see when my wife had her gallery. A lot of the kids who'd bring stuff in had learned from their teachers that the intent was the thing and craft was unnecessary. It's all part of the idea that performance doesn't matter as long as you feel good about yourself.

[luxborealis]

Christian Barr once said, "Art can't deny craft, but refuses to acknowledge it. In the end they are still brothers."

Dawn Detarando: "I don't see craft as something you make, but rather something you need to achieve good art."

Any monkey can put paint to paper, but is it art? Probably not since art is self-expression and for self-expression you need self-awareness. Both good craft and self-awareness brings you closer to producing art but are not guarentees.

There is a lot of crap out there that some people believe is art and some art critiques call art. I suppose "Art is in the eye of the beholder."

Can you have art without craft? Wow - impossible to say really as some people have inherent skills in art without having "learned" their craft. Perhaps these are the true artists.

[RSL]

Ooohhh... Let's try to define art.

[fotometria gr]

Christian Barr once said, "Art can't deny craft, but refuses to acknowledge it. In the end they are still brothers."

Dawn Detarando: "I don't see craft as something you make, but rather something you need to achieve good art."

Any monkey can put paint to paper, but is it art? Probably not since art is self-expression and for self-expression you need self-awareness. Both good craft and self-awareness brings you closer to producing art but are not guarentees.

There is a lot of crap out there that some people believe is art and some art critiques call art. I suppose "Art is in the eye of the beholder."

Can you have art without craft? Wow - impossible to say really as some people have inherent skills in art without having "learned" their craft. Perhaps these are the true artists.

I suppose that a fundamental of art is visualization, there are no painters that do not visualize their paintings before they start them or authors that don't visualize the story before they start writing, A.Adams refers extensively in his books on it and C.Bresson used to say that "the real photographer "sees" in his mind the print before he even hits the shutter", I guess that the values of society is dropping all the time and thus their art criteria/codes, but especially in photography, where to some its enough to hit a button and declare them shelves as artists, its easier to fool the one that receives the outcome. I would agree that there is no way to visualize the print with no technical background and thus create art, but I would also agree that some people (only a few in my experience) do have the technical knowledge AND THE TALENT TO EXPAND/BUILT ON IT, but lack the scientific knowledge to talk about it. I guess that the opposite is at the moment the vast majority of "photographers" especially as cameras appeal a lot to what I call "Gadget freaks" and industry bases a good margin of its sales to them. For example, did you notice the pictures that won NPCI last year? .....Jesus! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Ooohhh... Let's try to define art.

Ok, I'll bite: art, like beauty, is in the eye of the beer holder.

[fotometria gr]

Ooohhh... Let's try to define art.

OK! ...You first, ...I'll follow later, promise!  Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[RSL]

You nailed it, Slobodan, and in just eleven words. That kind of verbal economy is art at its apogee.

[fotometria gr]

We've often had the argument about whether one can be taught how to be an artist and not simply a technician.

Now dig this:

"He told Radio Times: “I used to point out at art school, you can teach the craft, it’s the poetry you can’t teach. But now they try to teach the poetry and not the craft.” "

I quote David Hockney.

Rob C

Is your opinion that "poetry" can be taught Rob? Or the old method of teaching the craft and let the instinct catch from there is enough? Mine is that it should be the craft, but since poetry can't be taught, approaching/decoding of art should be discussed (not taught) thus helping the student to advance from there. Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[Rob C]

My point of view is rather too well understood here, Theo.

I do believe that it is possible to self-educate on camera use; that it is easier/quicker to be taught; that Photoshop skills should be taught along with basic art in schools.

I do not believe that anyone can teach anyone else how to be an artist. I believe that in photography, self-education of the eye and mind is the only way it works, and that is done by looking at all the work one possibly can, which is the natural way of anyone sufficiently interested in photography or paint. It's why one is aware of either discipline to the extent that making it a life has any attraction in the first place. I think there are those photographers who never much looked at other's work and simply did it right out of the egg; I've never met one.

Looking at all that work does two things: it reveals to one the field(s) of personal interest; it gives one benchmarks against which to measure one's own progress. It does not, however, give anyone any business sense, which is perhaps as important a quality as any of the others in the mix! In practice, maybe it's the greatest of them all.

Rob C

[Rob C]

Ok, I'll bite: art, like beauty, is in the eye of the beer holder.

Like somebody said: I've never gone to bed with an ugly woman, but I've sure woken up beside many!

;-)

Rob C

[WalterEG]

Art gives my mind a hard-on.

Keith,

Perhaps you could share your brand of Beta-Blockers with Rob.

Comes a time in a man's personal evolution that a hard-on anywhere is a welcome talisman of former youth.

Cheers,

W

[fotometria gr]

My point of view is rather too well understood here, Theo.

I do believe that it is possible to self-educate on camera use; that it is easier/quicker to be taught; that Photoshop skills should be taught along with basic art in schools.

I do not believe that anyone can teach anyone else how to be an artist. I believe that in photography, self-education of the eye and mind is the only way it works, and that is done by looking at all the work one possibly can, which is the natural way of anyone sufficiently interested in photography or paint. It's why one is aware of either discipline to the extent that making it a life has any attraction in the first place. I think there are those photographers who never much looked at other's work and simply did it right out of the egg; I've never met one.

Looking at all that work does two things: it reveals to one the field(s) of personal interest; it gives one benchmarks against which to measure one's own progress. It does not, however, give anyone any business sense, which is perhaps as important a quality as any of the others in the mix! In practice, maybe it's the greatest of them all.

Rob C

Couldn't agree more... So, can to your opinion a teacher pass the reception of art to a possible artist? I mean surely none can teach somebody else to be an artist as you correctly state, but can't he help the "student" to decode/understand/approach existing art, thus helping him possibly optimize his abilities? Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
 P.S. I should have said, I hate being called Theo..., please try to avoid that.

[RSL]

Couldn't agree more... So, can to your opinion a teacher pass the reception of art to a possible artist? I mean surely none can teach somebody else to be an artist as you correctly state, but can't he help the "student" to decode/understand/approach existing art, thus helping him possibly optimize his abilities? Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
 P.S. I should have said, I hate being called Theo..., please try to avoid that.

So what shall we call you? Metria?

Yes, a teacher can "pass the reception of art" to a student. When I was at University of Michigan in 1950 and 51, I was lucky enough to have an English literature professor who, somehow, turned me on to poetry in a big way. I suddenly started spending most of my time in the men's union writing poetry, which didn't do much for my standing in my other classes, but got me published a couple times, while I was still 19, in one of the "little" magazines common in those days. I wrote poetry for decades after that and was published many times in various "little" magazines. That professor opened my life to something really glorious. I still can recite "Prufrock" from memory. I owe that man a lot.

[Rob C]

Keith,

Perhaps you could share your brand of Beta-Blockers with Rob.

Comes a time in a man's personal evolution that a hard-on anywhere is a welcome talisman of former youth.

Cheers,

W

Doubt that changing brands helps – now it’s academic at the very best.

Three maxims that come with age:

1.  never pass a toilet;
2.  never trust a fart;
3.  never waste a woodie, even if you’re alone.

Now you see why beta-blockers are so popular: keep you on the right side of the law in public places. However, if Heff's Playboy Philosophy was correct, you may not be quite so safe even at home in certain States of the Union.

Rob C

[fotometria gr]

So what shall we call you? Metria?

Yes, a teacher can "pass the reception of art" to a student. When I was at University of Michigan in 1950 and 51, I was lucky enough to have an English literature professor who, somehow, turned me on to poetry in a big way. I suddenly started spending most of my time in the men's union writing poetry, which didn't do much for my standing in my other classes, but got me published a couple times, while I was still 19, in one of the "little" magazines common in those days. I wrote poetry for decades after that and was published many times in various "little" magazines. That professor opened my life to something really glorious. I still can recite "Prufrock" from memory. I owe that man a lot.

Theodoros will do.
Could this have happened with any teacher? What I was trying to reach at, is that technic can be taught by many teachers, craft by none, but there are a few teachers, the ones that have that special "eye" who can "see" the talent that exists (even if the student hasn't realized it) and on the other hand the "real" knowledge on the subject that allows them to influence a possible artist and extract the maximum out of him by helping him to understand, decode and hence advance, from where the predecessors have stopped. Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
 

[Isaac]

Ooohhh... Let's try to define art.

'What strange psyche believes that two emails, printed out, then scrunched up, are important in any way? The creator of that masterpiece looked genuinely shocked when he was told that it was (literally) rubbish. He left, head down, cradling the screwed-up paper lovingly in his hands. ... The judges were kinder to some of the other entries – one thought the hanging whistle was "simple, radical, with strong sexual connotations". There was, however, a wonderful moment when an artist stumbling to explain the merit of some chairs he'd thrown on the floor was told: "This is the biggest load of bull---- I've ever heard." And that from Tracey Emin!

As Emin well knows, though, the question of what makes art, and what makes good art, has been around from Duchamp's urinal to Hirst's pickled shark. And there's a single answer – an answer that keeps art colleges going, keeps students believing that they really will change the world one day. Why is it art? Because I say so.'

Art? Even Tracey Emin said it was rubbish


'Why, I ask, is my unmade bed just an unmade bed and hers is art? "Because you didn't say that yours was art and you didn't feel that it was. I saw it as art and felt that it was. I said that it was and showed that it was. I have transferred what I feel on to someone else looking at it. That's the alchemy. That's the magic. I was the person who had to have the conviction in the first place. If you think about it, is it really worth all those fights and arguments and trauma to defend something that isn't real? No, it's not."'

'I really know what I'm talking about. I'm a brilliant f***ing artist' - Tracey Emin interview

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

I have no trouble defining Art. I know for a fact that it is the nickname of my friend Arthur.

[fotometria gr]

'What strange psyche believes that two emails, printed out, then scrunched up, are important in any way? The creator of that masterpiece looked genuinely shocked when he was told that it was (literally) rubbish. He left, head down, cradling the screwed-up paper lovingly in his hands. ... The judges were kinder to some of the other entries – one thought the hanging whistle was "simple, radical, with strong sexual connotations". There was, however, a wonderful moment when an artist stumbling to explain the merit of some chairs he'd thrown on the floor was told: "This is the biggest load of bull---- I've ever heard." And that from Tracey Emin!

As Emin well knows, though, the question of what makes art, and what makes good art, has been around from Duchamp's urinal to Hirst's pickled shark. And there's a single answer – an answer that keeps art colleges going, keeps students believing that they really will change the world one day. Why is it art? Because I say so.'

Art? Even Tracey Emin said it was rubbish


'Why, I ask, is my unmade bed just an unmade bed and hers is art? "Because you didn't say that yours was art and you didn't feel that it was. I saw it as art and felt that it was. I said that it was and showed that it was. I have transferred what I feel on to someone else looking at it. That's the alchemy. That's the magic. I was the person who had to have the conviction in the first place. If you think about it, is it really worth all those fights and arguments and trauma to defend something that isn't real? No, it's not."'

'I really know what I'm talking about. I'm a brilliant f***ing artist' - Tracey Emin interview

The problems of art with people appreciation of it... defined by artists! Only art can help them find their way and this way is through art,  ...its really a circle. Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[Isaac]

The problems of art with people appreciation of it... defined by artists! Only art can help them find their way and this way is through art,  ...its really a circle.

Break the circle -

"When David Frost asked Tracy Emin on his TV show why her bed was a work of art, she replied 'Because I say it is'. He did not then ask her, as he could have done, 'But who says you're an artist?' Artists do not, by any means, hold all the cards; they are free to try to be artists, but others are also free to decide for themselves whether they have achieved their goal."

p76 The Eclipse of Art: Tackling the Crisis in Art Today