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Author Topic: Scarlet  (Read 76097 times)

Bern Caughey

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #160 on: February 07, 2012, 02:20:25 pm »

About 120 for hair commercials, mmm. It depends. I've been trying with a videographer in testings and it looks good in a way but it still looks "cheap". It just depends on the budget, but I wasn't fully convinced.

Every hair commercial I've worked on was shot on film at 150 fps, or less.

www.arri.com/camera/film_cameras/35_mm_film/arriflex_435_xtreme.html
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fredjeang

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #161 on: February 07, 2012, 02:23:24 pm »

But it doesn't mean that I would personaly follow that path if I had to do a hair commercial. Actually I would not, and respect totally and admire the talent involved. It's just a matter of personal vision.
We have now impressive digital tools to expand the visual range. It's not because what was done or is still done today in a way is the only reasonable one.


Cheers.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 02:26:02 pm by fredjeang »
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Hywel

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #162 on: February 07, 2012, 02:25:48 pm »

Still waiting on my Scarlet, jealous of BCooter (as usual ;) )

I think if you come from a stills background, especially a medium format stills background, the "oh thank god for that!" feeling you get when you open up Red Cine and see RAW image processing tools so you can finally get your hands on the actual colour information will sell you on it right away. I've never really understood why most manufacturers are going from a perfectly decent RGB source to a mangled YCbCr signal, then trying to unwind that in post to colour correct and grade.

4K I don't really need but it doesn't hurt to have. RAW-like sensor information though, that's the killer feature. Slowmo is OK, we generally only use 50 fps at the moment anyway so 48 fps in 3K and 60 fps in 2K will do. If we need higher frame rates we'll hire for a day.

I wish RED could get a bit more businesslike with delivery times and ESPECIALLY delivery estimates. Dropping 15K UK pounds on a camera system one has a right to expect a delivery estimate. And REDUser is a scary, scary place.

But my experiments with a RED One definitely showed a Scarlet as the way to go, and I'm itching to get my hands on mine. I couldn't have afforded an Epic anyway so that's not a competitor, and a RED One would have done fine buy I found it too heavy and cumbersome for my grip gear, and I want to stick to lightweight shooting as the last think we need is an excuse to keep the camera static.

I think the most reassuring bit in Philip Bloom's review is:
"This is what the Scarlet does EXCEPTIONALLY well…The 4K recording is just amazing. The detail in the image plus the amazing latitude is a thing of beauty. The Red code RAW codec is robust and working with it in RED Cine Pro X makes working with ANYTHING else seem like a compromise."

Since I'm buying mine to get exactly those features, I'm very much looking forward to getting it. I think it'll be a very good complement to my Hasselblad H3D-31.

  Cheers, Hywel.




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Bern Caughey

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #163 on: February 07, 2012, 02:46:55 pm »

A little devil's advocate...

I'm still confused why the C300 gets so little respect. Many seasoned DPs are very excited about using it, & I'm holding off judgement until I can fully test. Having held it I'm glad it's an all-in-one plastic shrouded camera that shoots a broadcast ready codec while running endlessly on small batteries, & cheap media. It will be a dream to support in the field, & likely require less than half the cases of a RED.

There's much more to color science than RAW, & I know many a Producer who doesn't want the workflow hassles on most projects. Just look at the number of gigs that are shot on ArriRAW vs ProRes on the Alexa.

While this forum is very pro RED, Hollywood isn't. I hope the Epic/Scarlet change this dynamic, but my guess is that in the long term Canon will eventually dominate the market that RED plays in.

With that said I am still considering the Scarlet.

And the Canon.

Best,
Bern
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 08:58:29 pm by Bern Caughey »
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fredjeang

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #164 on: February 07, 2012, 02:55:05 pm »

A little devil's advocate...

I'm still confused why the C300 gets so little respect. Many seasoned DPs are very excited about using it, & I'm holding off judgement until I can fully test. Having held it I'm glad it's an all-in-one plastic shrouded camera that shoots a broadcast ready codec, runs on small batteries, & cheap media. It will be a dream to support in the field, & likely require less than half the cases of a RED.

There's much more to color science than RAW, & I know many a Producer who doesn't want the workflow hassles on most projects. Just look at the number of gigs that are shot on ArriRAW vs ProRes on the Alexa.

While this forum is very pro RED, Hollywood isn't. I hope the Epic/Scarlet change this dynamic, but my guess is that in the long term Canon will eventually dominate the market that RED plays in.

With that said I am still considering the Scarlet.

And the Canon.

Best,
Bern

Bern,

This there where I loose the story. In what the Raw workflow is perceived as hostile or hassle by many people? I really don't get this point. 
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bcooter

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #165 on: February 07, 2012, 03:05:47 pm »

Bern,

This there where I loose the story. In what the Raw workflow is perceived as hostile or hassle by many people? I really don't get this point. 

For an industry that can burn money like an oil spill, Hollywood producers can be damn cheap and are always looking for that magic bullet that will save them costs.

I think the compelling reason for the Canon is lower light, less cable, less generators, etc. etc, but then again we all know how Hollywood producers negotiate under and over the line talent.

So bottom line, they're cheap and want to protect their high margins and unfortunately not a lot of editors have a handle or want to know about RED workflow, or converting raw to a useable editorial codec.

Commercial clients see it different as they want more use out of their production and a somewhat future proof file.

Actually, there are no rules on workflow as every studio, production house and editorial director has their own thoughts on this.

My point on the Canon is it's a false economy.  Burning out a RED file flat in RED color and red gamma 2 takes about the same amount of time as downloading an SSD card.

Grading it allows you to make sure you have that extra security of moving the file, or cropping the file when you need to.

Canon blew it by offering just one lens mount per body.  To me, more than raw, more than file size that's a deal killer.

I'm not selling RED, heck I hope everyone uses the Canon, it makes it better for me, but I would never judge from a Hollywood producer because they get caught up in catch phrases without a lot of investigation.

IMO

BC
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Bern Caughey

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #166 on: February 07, 2012, 03:28:50 pm »

Given the money I think most producers would opt for RAW, but everything boils down to money.

Post is very expensive, & how many RedRockets will be required for multiple multicam shoots that each need to be turned around quickly? The small company I work with has about 15 editors, & seems to be adding more every week, most of who are working on Mac Minis. Imagine the workflow issues that RAW would add alone.

As I've said many times I wish the best for RED, & hope the Scarlet/Epic gets them around the bend. But understand the R1 was an very unreliable camera for years, & left a foul taste in the mouths of MANY a professional, myself included.

Now imagine a small all-in-one camera that shoots broadcast ready, laptop editable, footage on commodity memory cards with no need for a DIT.

I want to love the Scarlet, but not sure my clients will pay to play.




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Bern Caughey

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #167 on: February 07, 2012, 03:37:54 pm »

Canon blew it by offering just one lens mount per body.  To me, more than raw, more than file size that's a deal killer.

As a multimedia artist who runs his own ship the RED seems perfect for your needs. I can't imagine you with a C300 unless it was just for low light.
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fredjeang

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #168 on: February 07, 2012, 03:58:51 pm »

Bern,

I understand your points totally.

However, I'd like to introduce an idea.

This imagery world and specially the still-design is vastly Mac. Mac has even managed to make a big part of this industry work on a non-prpfessional software: FCP.
and currently has managed to impose a non open codec called prores and a more than discutible wrapper called QT.

And that makes the all process completly surreal.

I don't know where yopu are located, in the US maybe, but I can tell you that here, the industry is not FCP, it's Avid and Edius in the broadcast and to some extend Premiere. All the editors I know here fear like baby girl in front of a polar bear when they got a project in FCP, they hate it. None of the high-end studios that are working in demanding tasks like FX are runnin on Mac as their main platform, they run powerfull pc iunits on linux and now more and more on windows7.

We can deny that, but MAC + FCP isn't really the fastest more robust professional solution. In fact it's far from being the case.

Where do I want to go with that?

I don't have the Red rocket, and I've never edited so far huge volume of Red files, no. But as the system is the same, you can actually compare the workflow and it's stability. And the R3D workflow on Avid is faster than any of the other workflow I've experienced so far. The edius 4k workflow is very good. No crash, no slow down.

I run on PC since years, sort of abandonned Mac. I got Avid and Edius. But both Avid and Edius are professional softwares made and thought for having a fast reliable workflow, much faster than the FCP capabilities.
Just look at Edius clients for ex.

I'm not adressing this post to you, but I'd just like to break the Mac mystic because if people are measuring the workflow within this system-editor, they are IMO not getting the best.



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Bern Caughey

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #169 on: February 07, 2012, 04:23:03 pm »

Fred,

I'm in Hollywood. Looks like an Apple Store round these parts.

Best,
Bern
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fredjeang

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #170 on: February 07, 2012, 04:52:02 pm »

The situation here and in France is far from being the case.

Anyway, my point is that if people measure a workflow responsiveness with FCP as a reference point, it's not going to give a truth idea of what really costs a Red workflow in terms of speed.

Where I have a doubt is when I hear those claims about the difficult and heavy workflow that should represents RED, we should experience that also here at one point or another, and we see exactly the opposite: a straightforward process. So I'm not saying you are wrong I am right, but I'm saying something's weired somewhere about the Red workflow being demanding.

Of course, many great editors have and are working with FCP and therefore Mac, my point wasn't pejorative at all in that sense, but if all Hollywood is on Mac (but I doubt on FCP) then what Cooter pointed before in this thread about how works the production mentality in California makes all sense.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 04:54:05 pm by fredjeang »
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Bern Caughey

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #171 on: February 07, 2012, 04:58:43 pm »

... if all Hollywood is on Mac (but I doubt on FCP) then what Cooter pointed before in this thread about how works the production mentality in California makes all sense.

I'd guess there's 100, or more, copies of FCP for every copy of Avid in Hollywood. That culture is not going to change anytime soon, & I certainly expect FCP to be up to speed well before such could happen.

Edius isn't even on the radar here, while Premiere is a blip.
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fredjeang

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #172 on: February 07, 2012, 05:32:07 pm »

About Edius, I knew it isn't present in Hollywood. However it is a really good and powerfull editor and vastly used here in europe by some of the most prestigious broadcasts, very present in asia too.

But Bern, this isn't at all a personal criticsm. Not at all. In fact I thing that you're a great member, for your posts certainly a skilled professional and I like you. I say that because I know that english isn't my native lenguage and often I post things in a very straightforward form that may sound abrut or radical in ideas. It's a shortcut for me, easier to express things in english in a basic form. But I fully understand your points and do not find them specially in contradiction with my experience, because we all have different experiences to share. You may have good reasons to write what you do about the Red workflow and I respect them, and I also have good reasons to see the exact opposite, and we may be right both in fact.

Just that I report what I'm seeing and experience here, so as you do in your case.


Best regards. 
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bcooter

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #173 on: February 07, 2012, 05:32:13 pm »

I'd guess there's 100, or more, copies of FCP for every copy of Avid in Hollywood. That culture is not going to change anytime soon, & I certainly expect FCP to be up to speed well before such could happen.

Edius isn't even on the radar here, while Premiere is a blip.

I have never walked into any creative business enviornment in Russia, Spain, Italy, England, All the U.S., Canada, Brazil, Hong Kong where it wasn't dominated by Macs.

The only exception is Tokyo and that's changing.

Apple will have 146 billion in cash by the end of the year and it's not all from I phones.  A lot is, but not all.

P.C.'s are fine, I don't care and am totally agnostic about computers, but if all my client's and suppliers use Apple . . . I use Apple.

Bern's right fcpx will be the next standard whether anybody likes it or not.  They'll fix it, probably just enough to get by, but it will be the standard.

Premier is a blip for Apple users, Avid is for hard core production editors that know it inside and out and don't want to change.

Apple may have lost some market share to Avid and Premier, but that's didn't even show up on their balance sheet.

IMO

BC
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fredjeang

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #174 on: February 07, 2012, 05:36:56 pm »

Well, if that's going to be the case: a complete monopoly of Mac + FCP in the motion industry, then I don't like the idea at all. Because I love the Macs, but not in a motion configuration. Not at all.

Then I'll have no other choice to join the hard-core Avid division resistence.

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fredjeang

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #175 on: February 07, 2012, 06:00:48 pm »

So, where does this thing about the Red workflow being complicated, heavy and damn demanding comes from then ?


And James, I'm rarely, very rarely in contradiction with you, but the fact that Mac dominates the creative houses, no boubt with that, it's been like that for zillion years.

Now, on FCP I can't follow you on this prediction. Every editor I've been knowing so far have yes, FCP skills because they have to, but not one that I know edit mainly in FCP and most of them are completly allergic to it and they would give a list of 10 pages A4 to explain the reasons.

The few FCP editors I knew that have been trying Edius workflow in seminars have left FCP the same day and never went back.

Absolutly all the editors I've met so far are working with Media Composer or its broadcast version, some on Mac, others on Pcs workstations and the only reason they would eventually got the FCP is because of Prores monopoly. All broadcast TVs are working here with Avid, included national tv, and local tvs mainly on Edius. FCP is really the name I've heard the less unless in small independant editor houses where yes it is present and a few of independant filmakers I know.

And I know you know perfectly those facts actually but in fact I understand your post and why you say that about FCPx and yes, it may happen, like it or not, good or not. It may just happen.


Maybe California is different, but really, here FCP doesn't have the weight it has in the US.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 06:08:05 pm by fredjeang »
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Bern Caughey

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #176 on: February 07, 2012, 06:07:20 pm »

Now, on FCP I can't follow you on this prediction.

Remember the disappointment of the iPad 1.0 release? Pundits stating it looked little more than a bunch of cobbled together iPhones.

Don't underestimate Apple. They do think different, & will likely revolutionize editing. FCPX is just 6 months old, & plenty of editors are already seeing the light.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 06:10:41 pm by Bern Caughey »
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Hywel

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #177 on: February 07, 2012, 06:10:43 pm »


There's much more to color science than RAW, & I know many a Producer who doesn't want the workflow hassles on most projects. Just look at the number of gigs that are shot on ArriRAW vs ProRes on the Alexa.


Sure, there's more to colour science than RAW. But for me, I know I am likely to want to grade my material pretty aggressively (and I have to do it all myself). There's just no getting away from the fact that these broadcast-ready codecs throw away 99%+ of the moving picture information to squeeze it down to a 24/30/50 Mbps signal. You really notice that data loss when it comes time to grade.

I'd definitely rather keep more of the signal than that. So if I do want to tweak the colour science, at least the data is there to let me do it without discovering that the in-camera compression has already thrown all the information away.

For me, it is just like the difference between JPEG and RAW workflow. If you are a photojournalist, JPEG is probably your best buddy. But if you can take your time and want the liberty to massage and fine tune your images in post, the advantages of RAW win out.

The alternative to the Scarlet for me wasn't a C300, it was buying a ProRes recorder to plug into the clean SDI out from my AF100. The main limitation of that is the contrasty tone curve of the camera, and the fact that it will still be 8 bit. Canon Log solves the contrast issue on the C300 but my understanding is that it is still 8 bit, and that matters to me as I like really clean images and I HATE banding and posterisation. The Canon's codec just isn't a good fit to the way I want to work. Hopefully, the Scarlet's will be.

  Cheers, Hywel.
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fredjeang

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #178 on: February 07, 2012, 06:11:16 pm »

Remember the disappointment of the iPad 1.0 release? Pundits stating it looked little more than a bunch of cobbled together iPhones. Then fast forward to today.

Don't underestimate Apple. They do think different, & will likely revolutionize editing. FCPX is just 6 months old, & plenty of editors are already seeing the light.

It's true. Apple has the capacity to do that. And it will maybe happen.

or...the revolution could come also from RCX if they see it.
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Bern Caughey

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #179 on: February 07, 2012, 06:15:13 pm »

Canon Log solves the contrast issue on the C300 but my understanding is that it is still 8 bit, and that matters to me as I like really clean images and I HATE banding and posterisation.

How the C300 handles banding, & highlights, are my biggest concerns, & the main reason I'm holding off judgement.
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