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Author Topic: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0  (Read 101737 times)

amsp

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #140 on: January 25, 2011, 04:05:26 pm »

I'm with Mark, the reactions in this thread are ridiculous. Fortunately for PhaseOne most of their professional clients don't spend their time raging on internet forums. Don't get me wrong, I would like more for less as much as the next guy, but jeesh no one is forcing me to buy their products. So what if wealthy amateurs are buying these cameras, it only grows the used market for us poor sods that have to make a living shooting ;) Get a grip people, you are not entitled to this gear, just be happy there are options in the first place and that companies like P1 are working on advancing the MFD segment at all. Don't like it, don't buy it, it's as easy as that. But don't be presumptuous and think that YOUR needs are that of everyone else. For the record, I'm not buying one at launch, but down the line who knows, maybe I'll pick one up used. At least I'll have the option.

Back to work...


I don't get the negative vibes.  These backs offer what I wanted back when the P65 came out.  They are stupid expensive, but what else is new, they have always been stupid expensive.  

Some of the comments remind me of the Republicans attacking the health Care Reform Act:  absurdist and strange, fear mongering about Apple leaving your back unsupported.  If you don't like the new backs, don't buy them.  Their price tag makes that course of action an easy enough proposition.  

What Phase should do is have Mamiya make a digital RZ along the lines of the AFi/Hy6. Come to think of it, they should use an adapter system like Blad and Sinar, so that you can use the back on whatever camera you want.  That would be an open system.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #141 on: January 25, 2011, 04:52:01 pm »

 I'd really like to see some kind of alignment check with adjusts anyhow that would allow users to calibrate both the focus and alignment. I've been dreaming of a back mount system that had movements.

snip


Not to get off topic  ;D, but +1.
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LKaven

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #142 on: January 25, 2011, 05:04:07 pm »

I'm always interested in these posts that say /don't question the manufacturer's pricing/.  Usually they go something like "stop complaining--if you can't afford it don't buy it."  Yet customer dissent is one of the factors that moves manufacturers to lower their prices.  Why in god's name would anyone want to squelch that?

Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #143 on: January 25, 2011, 05:10:43 pm »

I'm always interested in these posts that say /don't question the manufacturer's pricing/.  Usually they go something like "stop complaining--if you can't afford it don't buy it."  Yet customer dissent is one of the factors that moves manufacturers to lower their prices.  Why in god's name would anyone want to squelch that?


I feel customer dissent is good, but more important to product development than determining what a manufacturer prices products at - at least at this level of technology, at this volume. For Canon or Sony, who will sell millions of $2,000 full frame DSLR's, they may adjust pricing by $100 to have an edge on a competitor. They may easily recoup that via the volume sales increase. That won't have an impact at the price level of medium format.

I don't think shouting at the manufacturer that their price is too high really has any effect. What really moves manufacturers to lower their price (or go out of business, or create better products) is when customers don't buy in the quantities they anticipate. That definitely gets their attention.


Steve Hendrix
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Alan W George

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #144 on: January 25, 2011, 05:20:47 pm »

I'm with Mark, the reactions in this thread are ridiculous. Fortunately for PhaseOne most of their professional clients don't spend their time raging on internet forums. Don't get me wrong, I would like more for less as much as the next guy, but jeesh no one is forcing me to buy their products. So what if wealthy amateurs are buying these cameras, it only grows the used market for us poor sods that have to make a living shooting ;) Get a grip people, you are not entitled to this gear, just be happy there are options in the first place and that companies like P1 are working on advancing the MFD segment at all. Don't like it, don't buy it, it's as easy as that. But don't be presumptuous and think that YOUR needs are that of everyone else. For the record, I'm not buying one at launch, but down the line who knows, maybe I'll pick one up used. At least I'll have the option.

Back to work...

Amen!  The armchair bellyaching gets old VERY quickly.  

Anyway, a question ....

So, I could turn in my P65+ and ~$16000 for an IQ180.  I admit to being interested.  I was wondering if anyone would comment on whether that ~$16000 is likely to go up or down as time goes by based on past P1 upgrade pricing histories?  Any input would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 10:23:00 pm by Alan W George »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #145 on: January 25, 2011, 06:05:53 pm »

I second that! my p45+ is awesome and a 1 min exposure time limit is just no good. The new backs, although very attractive, are instantly no good because of this problem!

I would consider the Pentax 645D and his possible future followers if you like the physical specs of the physical IQ but find long exposures important. They are currently using Kodak sensors.

It will be interesting to see if Pentax is able to implement some form of live view in the 645DII and to compare that with Phase implementation.

Cheers,
Bernard

Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #146 on: January 25, 2011, 06:34:02 pm »

I would consider the Pentax 645D and his possible future followers if you like the physical specs of the physical IQ but find long exposures important. They are currently using Kodak sensors.

It will be interesting to see if Pentax is able to implement some form of live view in the 645DII and to compare that with Phase implementation.

Got any sample images of, say, 6 minute exposures with a 645D? The Hasselblad H3D-31/39 and Phase One P30+/P45+ both used the same Kodak sensors and had drastically different long exposure capabilities. In other words: just because you use a Kodak sensor doesn't mean you get an automatic free pass for long exposures.

I'm serious about my question by the way. I'm curious to see samples like that as I have not seen any so far.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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gazwas

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #147 on: January 25, 2011, 07:36:47 pm »

I'm not clever or experienced enough to fully understand  how global markets work (especially at this present time) but wouldn't a lower pricing for these new backs actually open the market up more and ultimately Phase would sell more units?

If you want the best, sure, charge for it. However, the IQ140, and IQ160 are 2 year old tried and tested chips, just wrapped up in that new chassis.

Forget us working photographers, the rich amateur market must be where the cash cow is at the moment and I would imagine the cost of any of these new back must put all but the very wealthy amateurs off.

Heck, I'll be getting one but the costs still leaves me scratching my head as to the projected rate of growth P1 expect from a still very niche product ???
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #148 on: January 25, 2011, 07:51:43 pm »

I'm not clever or experienced enough to fully understand  how global markets work (especially at this present time) but wouldn't a lower pricing for these new backs actually open the market up more and ultimately Phase would sell more units?

If you want the best, sure, charge for it. However, the IQ140, and IQ160 are 2 year old tried and tested chips, just wrapped up in that new chassis.

Forget us working photographers, the rich amateur market must be where the cash cow is at the moment and I would imagine the cost of any of these new back must put all but the very wealthy amateurs off.

Heck, I'll be getting one but the costs still leaves me scratching my head as to the projected rate of growth P1 expect from a still very niche product ???


In the calculations I have been involved with working with various products of this type, it has not been shown that a dramatically reduced price will provide the necessary volume boost to produce more revenue (or even the same revenue, for that matter). And there have been some real world attempts I have observed that did not achieve the desired results. If this weren't the case, they would potentially have interest in this strategy.


Steve Hendrix
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Mr. Rib

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #149 on: January 25, 2011, 08:59:48 pm »

I'm not a tech guy but can someone tell me why the new P1 backs (and backs from other manufacturers) don't have a video output of some sort (like hdmi) for external viewing monitors? Ok,
Live view issue still not fixed (at least not to the level to call it a versatile/ solved problem live view solution), hmm.. It's unfortunate and sad when you think about the direction in which this market is evolving. Absolutely no doubts about that- it's target are wealthy amateurs and for anyone trying to make a buck out of photography, this is bad news. Sure, some pro guys will buy this, probably some will buy it even tough they can't justify the expense.
another thought- new P1 products make me think what would make a digital back a REVOLUTIONARY product. Not just another step forward, but something ground shaking..something REALLY useful.

- change the sensor size to 6x7 so that every MF shooter is happy (6x4.5, 6x7, 6x6)
- focus stacking (another thing which hasn't been announced.. if there's a focus confirmation, why can't there be a focus stacking option?)
- live view, which is obvious
- built in touchscreen which makes it possible to point the area / object which should be in focus (maybe it is impossible to realize it with current camera body- oh wait I forgot there is no real-deal pro camera up to current MFDB specs and demands in Mamiya / P1 lineup)
- aforementioned video port
- LONG exposure capability (huh, it wouldn't even be revolutionary since there is a P45+ back, actually current specs in this department are a step backwards..)
- high ISO capability is even more obvious (to the extent it souldn't even be mentioned here..)

Is all of this really, FOR REAL an impossible list of features to implement?
People can tell me that there are no perfect solutions and it aaall depends on what one needs. Well, yeah, that's because what that messed up MFDB market made us believe and be aware of..It's a neverending mantra of trade-offs, impossible to deal with obstacles, hourses for courses etc etc. I wonder if there are many motion shooters which would have big reasons to moan about Red Epic.. And it's all about listening to your customers, establishing a dialogue and confronting the matters. Sad truth is that pro shooters are not the customers to listen to and MFDB developers real customers can't tell what they need except the fact that the gear they will buy for kazillion $ should 'be the best on the market'.
All of this is frustrating and seriously makes me think about selling all this MF crap and going for a Canikon. It's not about the new iteration, but the development direction which is not likely to change any time soon- I guess there won't be times in foreseeable future when you can shoot your MF gear without thinking about it's limits, drawbacks and all that crap. And yes, I'm tired of being limited and of waiting for a SOLUTION.
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Dennis Carbo

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #150 on: January 25, 2011, 09:20:46 pm »

I myself doubt these new backs are for "Wealthy amateurs",  why would you think that is the target ? Seems to me there are plenty of Pros that would buy these backs and very,very few amateurs.  No matter what Phase One came out with there would be a thread bitching about it in one way or another, same thing happened when the 80mp Leaf came out - people yellin and screaming ...I dont need 80mp with poor Hi ISO performance !!    Fine ......then dont buy it...problem solved - go buy Canon or Nikon if that fits your bill better. It looks like they have done some great things with these backs....WAYYY out of my price range for now....I can pick one up when they are a few generations old !   Just my .02 cents
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jduncan

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #151 on: January 25, 2011, 11:29:33 pm »

I do agree.  :D

Edmund

Now I get what all the jokes were about: I should stop writing this posts >11pm.
But you get the idea :)
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Anders_HK

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #152 on: January 26, 2011, 12:41:17 am »

Doug, Steve, or whoever have info;

The user interface looks really great and there is a histogram nearly to size of Leaf backs now  ;D.

However, I am curious of what more exposure information the IQ backs provide. By chance would following be available? ;
1) histogram with gridline for each stop captured (similar to zone system)
2) readout of max and min exposure value captured (in stops), and how this relates to neutral and to the highest and lowest exposure for which the specific back is capable (read at barely textureless white and black)
3) with live view is there any way to expand above and relate to measured values of max and min EV values of the scene, thus to assist in adjusting exposure more precise based on the scene?

Above would be interesting. If not available, could they provide??? Apart from this... should we hope for a Leaf version soon with same type of display to cover the whole available real estate of the back???  :P

Regards
Anders
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #153 on: January 26, 2011, 03:41:51 am »

I myself doubt these new backs are for "Wealthy amateurs",  why would you think that is the target ? Seems to me there are plenty of Pros that would buy these backs and very,very few amateurs.  No matter what Phase One came out with there would be a thread bitching about it in one way or another, same thing happened when the 80mp Leaf came out - people yellin and screaming ...I dont need 80mp with poor Hi ISO performance !! 

I guess that some feel that most pros decide on their gear investments by looking rationally at the level of performance provided relative to their actual needs. I guess that only few photographers really need 80 mp for most of what they do, just like few photographers needed 4x5 quality in the past.

Wealthy amateurs on the other hand tend to just buy the best because they want it and can afford it.

I believe that the IQ180 is a very tempting back specwise, it seems that Phaseone did many things right and they are once more confirming the quality of their engineering dpt. Frankly speaking, it is the first time that I feel a back could actually be superior in the field to my trusted D3x. The only big unknown is battery life in cold weather.

I do think however that it is at least twice too expensive for the value it would deliver for my applications. Below 20.000 US$ I would have considered very seriously purchasing one had the cold weather battery life question been answered.

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #154 on: January 26, 2011, 07:13:05 am »


In the calculations I have been involved with working with various products of this type, it has not been shown that a dramatically reduced price will provide the necessary volume boost to produce more revenue (or even the same revenue, for that matter). And there have been some real world attempts I have observed that did not achieve the desired results. If this weren't the case, they would potentially have interest in this strategy.


Steve Hendrix

I agree with the above - it's an honest statement.

The only real argument Phase has is that it is a "Bentley". I used to ride to school regularly in a friend's Rolls Royce driven by his chauffeur, and I think that the new IQ backs will sell very well to photographers who get their assistant to take the picture.

BTW, nice car. Wood and leather ambience, as much space as anyone can need in the back, and who the hell cares about how it drives, or the front of the car, it definitely was not a self-drive. There was a guy in the front whose job was to make it work.

I was at a Phase dealer in Paris. The Photographer came to try the back. Big flamboyant guy with the leather jacket, open shirt, the stubble, the face well acquainted with the whisky - hold the rocks. Much kidding with the dealer, looking through the viewfinder, in the end, guy turns round and says "What do you think?" And then this sallow-faced insignificance walks up from the shadowy corner and picks up the camera. The Dealer really, really, doesn't like this moment. Says nothing. Big guy then says, well, what do you think? YOU are the ASSISTANT.

Edmund
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 07:23:38 am by eronald »
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Erick Boileau

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #155 on: January 26, 2011, 07:19:35 am »

I agree with the above - it's an honest statement.

The only real argument Phase has is that it is a "Bentley". I used to ride to school regularly in a friend's Rolls Royce driven by his chauffeur, and I think that the new IQ backs will sell very well to photographers who get their assistant to take the picture.

BTW, nice car. Wood and leather ambience, as much space as anyone can need in the back, and who the hell cares about how it drives, or the front of the car, it definitely was not a self-drive.

Edmund
;D
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 07:32:14 am by erickb »
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Graham Welland

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #156 on: January 26, 2011, 07:36:49 am »

I guess that some feel that most pros decide on their gear investments by looking rationally at the level of performance provided relative to their actual needs. I guess that only few photographers really need 80 mp for most of what they do, just like few photographers needed 4x5 quality in the past.

Wealthy amateurs on the other hand tend to just buy the best because they want it and can afford it.


Exactly. I don't see why this is so hard for some here to understand. Seems like a lot of sour grapes going on - the new backs appear to be a significant step forward and a worthy upgrade if you want these new features. If you don't like the price, don't pay it but there's no point getting all mad about it.

Let's face it, it's very unlikely that the images produced by these new backs will be noticeably different or indeed better than people can produce today with the Pxx+ or Leaf backs. Everything I see is really geared up to making the picture taking process better with improved ergonomics and better review tools.

In my own case I'm strictly an amateur shooting with a P40+ & Aptus 65 but I'll readily admit that I want the new IQ140 to improve my enjoyment of shooting and also to make my preferred technical camera shooting experience better and easier. From a rational point of view, it could be considered madness but what the heck, it's still cheaper than a trophy wife divorce or exotic car hobby (plus I'm only out to impress me, not the neighbors).
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 07:38:30 am by Graham Welland »
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eronald

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #157 on: January 26, 2011, 07:46:35 am »

In my own case I'm strictly an amateur shooting with a P40+ & Aptus 65 but I'll readily admit that I want the new IQ140 to improve my enjoyment of shooting and also to make my preferred technical camera shooting experience better and easier. From a rational point of view, it could be considered madness but what the heck, it's still cheaper than a trophy wife divorce or exotic car hobby (plus I'm only out to impress me, not the neighbors).

Regarding the trophy wife, there is always the rental option :)

Edmund
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Graham Welland

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #158 on: January 26, 2011, 08:06:53 am »

Regarding the trophy wife, there is always the rental option :)

Edmund

Indeed. Overall, MUCH cheaper actually.  :D
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Barry Goyette

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #159 on: January 26, 2011, 06:09:26 pm »

I'm sure this is a wonderful camera.

I have to say though that a 3:2 display on a 4:3 camera seems...well...odd.  Upon watching the Phase's LCD video, I'm also surprised at the placement of the Firewire port, sticking out the back of the camera right under the screen. On the plus side the touch features look nice, especially to someone who after 3 years with an iPhone, automatically swipes and pinches every small lcd I see.

Barry
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