Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: BJNY on January 23, 2011, 09:49:07 pm

Title: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BJNY on January 23, 2011, 09:49:07 pm
Details at http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/phase_one_iq180_announced.shtml

http://www.phaseone.com/~/media/Phase%20One/Press%20releases/PressRelease_Phase_One_IQ-series.ashx

Copenhagen, January 24, 2011 — Phase One, the world’s leading pro photography equipment provider, today announced a bold new generation of medium format digital camera backs. The Phase One IQ180, IQ160 and IQ140 digital camera backs feature maximum resolutions of 80, 60.5 and 40 high quality megapixels respectively. This series sets new standards for medium format camera system handling and performance.

The Phase One IQ180 captures at full-frame 80 megapixel resolution, with a dynamic range of 12.5 f-stops. It is the first product of its kind to feature a USB3 connection, facilitating faster image transfers in the future. The IQ180 also features a FireWire 800 connection, ensuring the fastest tethered capture speeds possible today. For untethered shooting, the IQ180 digital back’s new memory card interface is so fast that it eliminates buffering delays, supporting continuous shooting until a card is filled.

“I am amazed by the image quality I’ve gotten ‘out of the box’ with the Phase One IQ180 on the Phase One 645DF camera. I can create images with more detail and unique looks than with any other camera out there. It helps me develop styles unique to me,” said lifestyle photographer Jens Honoré. (website: http://www.jenshonore.com/)

A newly-designed 3.2 inch retina type, multi touch screen features 1.15 megapixel resolution, providing the highest resolution and largest display of any SLR type camera available today. This means that very fine details can be checked instantly during a photo shoot -- for instance using Phase One’s unique Focus Mask and the instant zoom function. The automatic adjustment of brightness and contrast ensures that the display is visible under various light conditions.

Context-sensitive controls, such as the instant zoom function, allow a photographer to zoom into an image using one finger only. Small histograms and highlight warnings can be enlarged to full screen view by a simple touch. The new Focus Mask available during preview helps validate depth-of-field and image focus. The wide format display allows for a full 4:3 aspect ratio VGA resolution image next to histogram, highlight warning, focus mask, EXIF data, and touch controls.  This touch screen display is complemented by Phase One’s intuitive 4-button navigation.

“The new high-resolution multi touch screen with its intuitive controls is a perfect tool for checking image quality right at the moment of capture. With this display quality, I can leave my laptop at home, and ultimately this makes my work easier,” said architectural photographer, Eugeni Pons. (website: http://www.eugeni-pons.com/)
Phase One’s patent-pending Sensor+ technology, built into the Phase One IQ180, supports a variety of shooting conditions. One can capture images with full 80 megapixels resolution or, using Sensor+ mode, switch instantly to capture images with 20 megapixels resolution at 4 times higher sensitivity, up to ISO 3200. This flexibility is very useful under low light conditions; there is no need to slow down to change cameras, and there’s no crop or lens factor. One gets the maximum wide-angle performance from the existing lens, higher ISO levels, and a faster workflow.

According to fashion photographer Stefan Kapfer, “The new IQ180 suits my work very well. I can use the full 80 megapixel resolution for my high end fashion shots, and the 20 megapixel images I get from the Sensor+ technology give me a faster workflow when I do work for catalogue production. It’s really two perfect solutions in one system.” (website: http://www.stefankapfer.de/)

Compatibility is improved between the IQ digital backs and the Phase One 645DF camera body. The power state of the digital back can now be controlled directly from the 645DF camera. An integrated battery charger ensures that the battery is charged while one is shooting tethered, offering more shooting versatility.

Capture One 6
Capture One 6 has been optimized for shooting with Phase One IQ digital backs. Together with the IQ series backs this professional RAW converter and image editing software will deliver the world’s highest image quality with excellent color and detail.  The software comprises all the tools required to capture, organize, edit, share and print images for an efficient workflow.

Reliability and Service
Pro photographers can rely on Phase One IQ digital backs to get their jobs done. Their highly durable build quality is designed and tested to work in the toughest environments, including extreme heat, cold and humidity.

All Phase One products represent long-term investment value with superior service. For professionals, this protection is priceless, especially when shooting in unfamiliar situations and locations around the world.

Various service levels are available for Phase One IQ digital backs. For example, a value-added option includes a life-time (5 year) warranty, a free loaner unit during repair and other options. Phase One offers 365 days round the clock support delivered on-line and backed up by dedicated partners and a global support team.

For a complete list of all the new Phase One IQ digital back features, including supported camera bodies, please see www.phaseone.com/iq

Availability and Pricing
The Phase One IQ180 is expected to be available end of April 2011. The Phase One IQ160 and IQ140 are expected to be available end of May 2011. The products may be ordered now through Phase One professional photography partners worldwide: www.phaseone.com/partners

Prices for new digital backs start at 16.990 EUR / 21.990 USD. Attractive upgrade offers are available for all existing Phase One photographers.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 23, 2011, 09:55:41 pm
Details at http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/phase_one_iq180_announced.shtml

There is a news embargo until 6am EST. Therefore I cannot comment yet. Suffice it to say Capture Integration will be all over this. We've worked very hard to have lots of information and answers to all your questions.

This is the most significant advancement in medium format I've ever seen.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: Guy Mancuso on January 23, 2011, 10:09:30 pm
We are adhering to the same news embargo at GetDPI as well. This data should not be out in public until the embargo is over.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: PaulSchneider on January 23, 2011, 10:13:13 pm
Doug, I have a question, maybe you might clarify the differences since your selling both the aptus and the phase one backs ... what's the relationship between the two now?

People who bought the aptus 12 now have bought a clearly inferior product? ... This  is annoying since I just ordered an aptus 12. ... Is aptus sort of a budget line now? Who wants a 80 MPX back with a low-res screen, no weather sealing, lumping battery on the bottom when one can have a Phase One IQ 180?

...

Just asking,

Paul

Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: Rudy Torres on January 23, 2011, 10:22:54 pm
Don't try to diffuse a bomb that has already gone off.
Wow. Forty Thousand Dollars.
Did you all see that video about a guy in Colorado who paid his Fourteen Thousand dollar college tuition for one semester in one dollar bills.
It was a lot of money on the cashier's table.

Wow. Forty Thousand Dollars.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 23, 2011, 10:25:00 pm
Doug, I have a question, maybe you might clarify the differences since your selling both the aptus and the phase one backs ... what's the relationship between the two now?

People who bought the aptus 12 now have bought a clearly inferior product? ... This  is annoying since I just ordered an aptus 12. ... Is aptus sort of a budget line now? Who wants a 80 MPX back with a low-res screen, no weather sealing, lumping battery on the bottom when one can have a Phase One IQ 180?

...

Just asking,

Paul




The IQ180 will cost quite a bit more than the Aptus-II 12. The extra cost will be the price of admission for everything but the sensor. Bear in mind also, that the Aptus-II 12 does offer some unique features of its own, like the internal rotating sensor of the R series, for example. The Phase One P+ digital backs aren't going away either - they remain as current products, simply at a lower price point and lacking the advanced features of the IQ series, yet utilizing (at least) two of the same sensors (and several others like the 39MP P45+ and 31MP P30+).

Not everyone buys the most expensive products on the market. This provides a range of products that cover a variety of price points, but offer superior image quality over the entire range.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: PaulSchneider on January 23, 2011, 10:29:31 pm
Steve, oh, I didn't see that, it costs 10k more ... price discrimination, remember that from economics class ... mhhh so there will be a p80+ in the price range of the aptus?

But the sensors are the same, thus noise and dynamic range characteristics?¨

Thanks for your clarifications,

Paul
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: Rudy Torres on January 23, 2011, 10:36:22 pm
What else could you buy.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 23, 2011, 10:39:57 pm
Steve, oh, I didn't see that, it costs 10k more ... price discrimination, remember that from economics class ... mhhh so there will be a p80+ in the price range of the aptus?

But the sensors are the same, thus noise and dynamic range characteristics?¨

Thanks for your clarifications,

Paul


Paul -

I don't know that there will be a P80+ produced. But I suspect not and that the IQ180 will be the only available version for a Phase One 80MP product. I would expect native noise and dynamic range to be similar to the Aptus-II 12, though considering the differences in the environmental components of each product, some subtle differences could exist.

***Despite the information on the IQ series being posted on Luminous Landscape in advance of the embargo expiration, since we have been under this embargo this weekend and are supposed to honor it until 6AM EST tomorrow morning (and the fact I am quite weary and heading to bed), I am not going to post any further until after that time has passed.

See you all then!


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: michael on January 23, 2011, 10:50:23 pm
Please note – I broke no embargo.

I was told by Phase One's CEO in a telephone call last week that it would be OK to post on Sunday evening my time.

Michael
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 23, 2011, 10:58:06 pm
Please note – I broke no embargo.

I was told by Phase One's CEO in a telephone call last week that it would be OK to post on Sunday evening my time.

Michael


No disrespect was intended. All Phase One Partners/Dealers were told that the embargo-time was 6am EST or noon Danish time on Monday. That is the only information I had regarding the timing of public release of the info.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 23, 2011, 10:59:07 pm
Please note – I broke no embargo.

I was told by Phase One's CEO in a telephone call last week that it would be OK to post on Sunday evening my time.

Michael



And I did not state that an embargo was broken here either (and Michael, I realize you are not directly responding to me), I only noted that the information was posted in advance of the embargo expiration, and that despite that, I would not be posting further until the embargo does expire (as we were instructed).


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: michael on January 23, 2011, 11:10:02 pm
Steve and Doug.

Understood. If I had been aware that there was a 6am embargo I of course would have honoured it.

As it was, during the conference call I asked when the release date was and was told the 24th. I was also told that I could publish the night before, my time, and that was that.

Sorry to have pissed in everyone's pool. That was not my intent.

Regards,

Michael
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: jduncan on January 23, 2011, 11:10:15 pm
This look great. I was expecting it from the mail about the great Phase one event.  Phase one continues to invest in fundamental technology and design. I believe Hasselblad have prove to be too conservative to get the leadership they hope to get when they closed the H system. I hope next move from phase will be related to cameras.
It is interesting how clean was the movement from Kodak to Leaf sensors for phase one users, in contrast to Hasselblad users. Great news. Lest hope the price is not too high for the entry and medium offerings. But even if priced at a premium there is little reason not to believe that this will be (if they work as expected) the top of the line backs in the market.
Note to new comers on the MF market: Phase is not going without a mighty fight, they understand that for wining you need to invest.
Post data: They are simple beautiful, still the stainless steel h4d-40 is even more beautiful but that's beside the point.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: bcooter on January 24, 2011, 01:51:15 am
We are adhering to the same news embargo at GetDPI as well. This data should not be out in public until the embargo is over.

I dig this embargo stuff.

This isn't wikileaks and classified documents, it's just a camera back.

Everybody has probably heard phase is gonna have a new back with a better lcd and probably some kind of touch screen since they acquired Leaf and Leaf has had touch screen forever.

As far as 80mpx, what would a medium format camera announcement be if there wasn't more megapixels?

You can't get within 4 blocks of a camera dealer without a wink-wink guess what I heard comment, so  . . .

I understand corporate proprietary information and I've signed a lot of contracts for a lot of projects and lived them to the letter,  but a new camera back with more pixels?

That's kind of like saying that Apple is gonna come out with a new I-phone someday.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: DeeJay on January 24, 2011, 02:21:43 am
Oh dear...it looks like the Leaf back.

It's really quite dire when a company buys out it's only real competition.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: skimasks on January 24, 2011, 02:53:46 am
Quote
I want to see some elephants step on this.
- Klyment Tan
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: klane on January 24, 2011, 04:23:11 am
I kinda liked the old screen better.  ;D
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: paul_jones on January 24, 2011, 04:29:15 am
well, i think this is great news. sounds like a better screen than i was expecting and having usb3 is future proofing.
even the weather sealing is a surprise, as a user that killed a p25 with a splash of salt water, this is also great. i hope it works.

i really dont need 80mp, but the 20mp senor plus is cool. pity its a bit slow. my p40+ shoots with senor plus at a couple of frames per second.

paul
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: amsp on January 24, 2011, 04:44:40 am
Nice, exactly the kind of evolution I was expecting and then some. Now I just hope they release an equally evolved revision of the camera.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: Erick Boileau on January 24, 2011, 04:50:01 am
As far as 80mpx, what would a medium format camera announcement be if there wasn't more megapixels?
  ?? strange idea !  my needs = 40 mp top limit , I shall never pay 1 $ for more pixels
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: Guy Mancuso on January 24, 2011, 05:16:17 am
I dig this embargo stuff.

This isn't wikileaks and classified documents, it's just a camera back.

Everybody has probably heard phase is gonna have a new back with a better lcd and probably some kind of touch screen since they acquired Leaf and Leaf has had touch screen forever.

As far as 80mpx, what would a medium format camera announcement be if there wasn't more megapixels?

You can't get within 4 blocks of a camera dealer without a wink-wink guess what I heard comment, so  . . .

I understand corporate proprietary information and I've signed a lot of contracts for a lot of projects and lived them to the letter,  but a new camera back with more pixels?

That's kind of like saying that Apple is gonna come out with a new I-phone someday.

IMO

BC

Obviously you need to read the Press release and we are just following the embargo that was given to us. You may hear this and that but there is a lot that no rumor covered to what is released. Frankly I am surprised the 40 and 60 are included in this new packaging. I may just do a lateral move myself from the P40 to the IQ 140 as it solves several key issues. Obviously we will see what upgrade pricing is in place and see what makes sense. Everyone will have there own priorities on what route to take or stay pat.


Jack and I will get a chance to shoot it all day this week in San Francisco and will also be doing a first look at it before the back starts making it's way around the country to the dealers for there demos and special events. 
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BJNY on January 24, 2011, 06:29:24 am
The IQ also features a USB 3.0 port for quicker image transfer and a FireWire 800 connection for faster tethered shooting.

Is USB 3.0 only for transferring, and not for tethering?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BJNY on January 24, 2011, 06:37:13 am
Is there WiFi to iPad without need for portable or desktop computer?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: ced on January 24, 2011, 06:39:40 am
I'm getting out of the pool to have a shower, what with all that piss around... :D
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BJNY on January 24, 2011, 06:50:33 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxrNqi5Cueo&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwlLoGuT-B4&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

and others at http://www.youtube.com/user/PhaseOneDK
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 24, 2011, 08:07:44 am
Oh dear...it looks like the Leaf back.

It's really quite dire when a company buys out it's only real competition.


Let's remember the situation with Leaf was quite "dire" at the time. This was not a hostile takeover, Leaf was in the hands of Kodak. Now, Leaf has a healthy, smart, well financed ownership committed to the segment of the market they operate in. A positive for Leaf, for Phase One, and for the photographic community on many levels contrasted to the alternative.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 24, 2011, 08:16:21 am
Respect to Phase/Leaf. All they need now is a half decent platform. I can't help feeling they backed the wrong camera; they should have put their money behind the AFi.


The price of that admission may have been more than they wished to spend. And I trust this was a wise choice. They backed a very viable platform and while the camera may not have excited anyone, I would say that they have improved it substantially and I don't think there is anyone who would argue about the lenses - excellent Mamiya and Schneider optics (part of the allure of the AFi anyway).

They're not done here, for those who don't feel the DF system is where they wish to be, it has already been stated by Phase One that more cameras are on the drawing table, though they'll take time. And frankly, many of our clients who have handled a DF camera have changed their opinions about the Mamiya-based system.

Instead of bogging themselves down with the AFi project (both financially and otherwise), they start fresh and invest into Leaf, Mamiya, Expression Media, and the R&D that results in the IQ series. Nice as the AFi may be, I for one, am thankful, and look forward to their new camera system in a few years, complete with more Mamiya/Schneider optics.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 08:55:53 am
  ?? strange idea !  my needs = 40 mp top limit , I shall never pay 1 $ for more pixels

Sounds like the Phase One IQ140 (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/iq/) is perfect for you :-).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 08:56:37 am
The IQ also features a USB 3.0 port for quicker image transfer and a FireWire 800 connection for faster tethered shooting.

Is USB 3.0 only for transferring, and not for tethering?

Tethering options:
USB3
USB2
FW800
FW400

See more: http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/iq/#tethering

Is there WiFi to iPad without need for portable or desktop computer?

No such feature has been announced.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: ndevlin on January 24, 2011, 09:03:37 am

... it has already been stated by Phase One that more cameras are on the drawing table, though they'll take time. And frankly, many of our clients who have handled a DF camera have changed their opinions about the Mamiya-based system.

... I for one, am thankful, and look forward to their new camera system in a few years, complete with more Mamiya/Schneider optics.
Steve Hendrix

In a few years!!!?? Sweet Jesus, please tell us you didn't mean that Steve. ;D We all know that the wizards in Copenhagen can build great backs. It took them longer than hoped to discover the existence of LCD technology, but let bygones be bygones. These backs look the business (except for live-view and video  ;))

But the real question is when the knuckle-draggers in Osaka will build a half-decent camera to mount this on. I don't want to drive my Aston Martin on 11" spare emergency rims, thanks.   I would have thought that the getting pants'd by Pentax on the 645D would have shamed Mamiya's salarymen men into 24/7 action. If I didn't know better, I'd think the survival of their jobs depends on it....

- N,
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 24, 2011, 09:10:32 am
Very interesting specs, I hope the live view thing is for real, that would make these backs total killers for top notch landscape work in the field.

Cut the price in half and it would become an interesting product. :)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: John R Smith on January 24, 2011, 09:25:47 am
Very interesting specs, I hope the live view thing is for real, that would make these backs total killers for top notch landscape work in the field.

Cut the price in half and it would become an interesting product. :)

Cheers,
Bernard

The pricing policy is very interesting. The way Phase are going to make their money is very similar to the way car manufacturers charge strikingly different amounts for what is essentially the same car, with just a slightly different engine. The prices from the Phase site -

IQ180: $43,990
IQ160: $36,990
IQ140: $21,990

Now then, the IQ140 is exactly the same body, screen, etc etc as the IQ180. You can't tell me or anyone else and keep a straight face that the sensor in the 80 costs $20,000 more than the 40, yet the sensor is the only difference between the two. So if Phase are able to make a profit on the IQ140 (and I don't imagine they are selling it at a loss), then the profit on the 80 is, shall we say, ludicrous?

John
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: ndevlin on January 24, 2011, 09:29:53 am
Actually John, I think it's not ludicrous but rather paying for R&D and relatively small quantities of chips in the larger size. Apple prices on the iPads....now that's ludicrous.

But they did manage to work "IQ" into the product name. That's gotta be worth a buck or two.

- N.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Erick Boileau on January 24, 2011, 09:37:24 am
but IQ140 has a crop 1.3   ... >:(
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 09:38:44 am
Very interesting specs, I hope the live view thing is for real, that would make these backs total killers for top notch landscape work in the field.

As long as your expectations are realistic. CCD sensors - of this kind - can not have the same live view as CMOS sensors. But if it's usable in slower tripod-based styles of shooting (landscape, interior, architecture) then it will be huge for tech camera users.

The Focus Mask and Tap to 100% Zoom on the LCD will also be very helpful in this regard.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BJNY on January 24, 2011, 09:44:43 am
Live View when implemented will be 3fps according to http://www.alpa.ch/en/news/2011/phase-one-iq-backs?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 09:59:46 am
Naaaah  8).  It is a copy of a LEAF back and some filing done to it to make a more simple shape + cut lower part off from the Leaf's display  ;D

[From an orphaned thread about the same topic...]

I know you're joking, but just for an interesting point of reference, the Phase One IQ LCD is not just the best LCD of any digital back. It is the best LCD on any still camera.

(http://www.captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/Resolution-670x179.jpg)
From our Article on the Phase One IQ LCD (http://www.captureintegration.com/2011/01/23/resolution-of-camera-lcds/).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BJNY on January 24, 2011, 10:03:41 am
The pricing policy is very interesting. The way Phase are going to make their money is very similar to the way car manufacturers charge strikingly different amounts for what is essentially the same car, with just a slightly different engine. The prices from the Phase site -

IQ180: $43,990
IQ160: $36,990
IQ140: $21,990

Now then, the IQ140 is exactly the same body, screen, etc etc as the IQ180. You can't tell me or anyone else and keep a straight face that the sensor in the 80 costs $20,000 more than the 40, yet the sensor is the only difference between the two. So if Phase are able to make a profit on the IQ140 (and I don't imagine they are selling it at a loss), then the profit on the 80 is, shall we say, ludicrous?

John


Upgrade pricing at http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/promotions/
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: ternst on January 24, 2011, 10:22:44 am
One of the great features of Leaf backs for tech camera users is that you can input the lens mm into the exif data before you take the picture, and is included in all files until you change it - a real lifesaver knowing what lens was used so I know which LCC file is needed. Is there anything like this with the new Phase backs?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: ondebanks on January 24, 2011, 10:23:55 am
Sounds like the Phase One IQ140 (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/iq/) is perfect for you :-).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)


Doug - the 40MP version is the same sensor as in the P40+? Aw, CRAP!

My heart sank when I saw your page say that all the new IQ backs have "Sensor+".

Sensor+ = DALSA = no long exposures (beyond 1 minute)   >:(

 ...AND...

DALSA 40MP = no microlenses = low ISO at full resolution.  :(

WTF are PhaseOne not using the best 40MP chip out there - the Kodak one used by Pentax and Hasselblad?

What a missed opportunity!
Beautiful screen and all that, just a very 2nd rate sensor!
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: arashm on January 24, 2011, 10:33:44 am
So what's happening with the prices for the current P backs
ie P30+ and the P40+  ???
thank you
am
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Rudy Torres on January 24, 2011, 10:45:54 am
I am looking at the image of the bottom. There is a small door. Is that the battery chamber and how long will the battery last untethered?

- Rudy
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 10:59:07 am
I am looking at the image of the bottom. There is a small door. Is that the battery chamber and how long will the battery last untethered?

Yes. Phase reports battery life will be the about the same as the P+ series. I would wait until we (Capture Integration) can do extended real world testing though since battery life is highly dependent on LCD use.

Also: Battery charges while tethered to FW. Neat little feature.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 11:16:18 am
Doug - the 40MP version is the same sensor as in the P40+? Aw, CRAP!

My heart sank when I saw your page say that all the new IQ backs have "Sensor+".

Sensor+ = DALSA = no long exposures (beyond 1 minute)   >:(

 ...AND...

DALSA 40MP = no microlenses = low ISO at full resolution.  :(

WTF are PhaseOne not using the best 40MP chip out there - the Kodak one used by Pentax and Hasselblad?

What a missed opportunity!
Beautiful screen and all that, just a very 2nd rate sensor!

I can't imagine you really think it's a "second rate sensor". It is the same specs (but 1.3x cropped) as the Phase One P65+ sensor which is widely regarded as having the highest dynamic range of any camera (Phase/Leaf claim the 80mp sensor adds another approx. 1/3 stop but until I've tested I'm skeptical).

The major decision is to make a back which can only be used on SLRs (strong micro lenses) but gains one stop of ISO, or to make a back which can be used on any kind of camera (weak micro lenses) such as a technical camera or view camera. The later provides access to more markets, provides the photographer great assurance of future-proofing if they start working in areas of photography (like product/still-life/architecture/interior/landscape) and will also likely help hold up the value of the camera when you go to sell it second hand.

Neither path is universally better - like anything it's a compromise.

The Sensor+ mode provides up to ISO3200 - higher than the Kodak version can go. For a P40+ this is at 10mp (the IQ180 it is 20mp in sensor+ mode) which is still plenty for many applications.

The Dalsa sensor coupled with the Phase architecture also allows faster readout allowing for faster shooting. For many fashion/portrait shooters this is no small thing since they want to be able to capture expressions and moments. A Phase One IQ140 (http://www.captureintegration.com/2011/01/23/phase-one-iq-series-upgrades/) can capture 70ish frames per minute (significantly faster than the H4D-40 or Pentax) in full resolution and over 100 frames per minute in sensor+ mode.

There are also many photographers who, after testing, simply prefer the look of the Dalsa sensor over the Kodak sensor, especially regarding skin tones and tonal smoothness. That's something you'd want to investigate for yourself as it's a very subjective thing.

Each of these products from Phase, Hassy, and Pentax have their strengths and weaknesses. That's why they are all in the marketplace.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 11:22:36 am
Doug, why have an iPhone 3g even mentioned in the chart? 2 year old product, 2 generations back. Odd for comparison. iPhone 4 would have a larger bar and I guess that truth is too hard to swallow, so morphing reality helps to sell things.

Basic marketing.

I don't think it's deceptive - in the article I link to wikipedia article with a running list of display's sorted by resolution. Actually the LCD of the iPhone 4 has a PPI of 326 - just 12% higher than a Phase One IQ. Being within 12% of the iPhone 4 LCD is pretty impressive to me, given that it's widely regarded as it is often referenced as the best LCD of any mobile device*

Regardless the more pertinent comparison is probably to other digital backs and in this regard there is absolutely no comparison. This is by far the best digital back LCD on the market.

Anyway, it only took 6-7 years for Phase to get this display. Phase will hold that top LCD spot for only a few months until the next bump from Canon/Nikon. Short lived. The higher quality screen will be greatly appreciated and the griping will most likely quell.

I would imagine that by the end of 2011 either Canon or Nikon will come out with a pro or semi pro (more likely) camera with an LCD with (slightly) better specs. That won't make the LCD on the Phase One IQ any less amazing.

It's fair to let them have their day in saying it's the best LCD of any camera.

This is sort of a threshold moment (in my opinion) for camera LCDs. Up until now they've been not good but getting better.

Once you've hit the 300ish PPI mark, and the LCD takes up the majority of the rear part of the digital back there is not much more that can be imagined to make the screen better except ramp the brightness up even more. So I strongly suspect that even in 5 years the LCD on the Phase One IQ will be considered very good.

Just my opinion.

*gotta feel bad for the LG-LU1400 which technically has a higher PPI LCD

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Graham Mitchell on January 24, 2011, 11:41:03 am
Back sounds great. Pity that it doesn't work with my first, second or even third choice of camera platform!
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 24, 2011, 11:44:11 am
The new design and specs seem quite good. I do believe these new backs will be great products, produce superb image quality.

Price is just silly. I'm sure tons of these new backs will sell, but come on, $44K just to make a still picture. It just snaps a pic. Add another $15-20K for lenses and accessories, just to make a photo. A standard 1 year warranty is abhorrent at that price point. Get some balls and provide a standard multi year warranty.

Doug, why have an iPhone 3g even mentioned in the chart? 2 year old product, 2 generations back. Odd for comparison. iPhone 4 would have a larger bar and I guess that truth is too hard to swallow, so morphing reality helps to sell things. Anyway, it only took 6-7 years for Phase to get this display. Phase will hold that top LCD spot for only a few months until the next bump from Canon/Nikon. Short lived. The higher quality screen will be greatly appreciated and the griping will most likely quell.




http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/technology/efficientdynamics/phase_1/model_5series_sedan_520d.html

Just to get from one place to another.


Actually, the resolution of the retina display of the IQ Series is similar to the iPhone 4G, so the graph would show them about the same level. So, I agree, why not show the iPhone 4G instead of the 3G, since the screen is so awesome? We'd be better served that way!


Steve Hendrix


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: vjbelle on January 24, 2011, 12:07:55 pm
I have not seen anywhere on the Phase site anything regarding connectivity with USB 3.0.  This would be a leap forward for Phase as FW is on its way out.  I have an email in to my dealer (Capture Integration) regarding upgrade paths for my P45.  Have yet to hear from them.... will see how all of this shakes out. 
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: JDG on January 24, 2011, 12:09:37 pm
Back sounds great. Pity that it doesn't work with my first, second or even third choice of camera platform!
What's your 3rd choice?  I assume your first two are Rollei 6008 and Hy6...  ;)

Based on the data sheets it looks like the IQ will be in the standard H, V, M and C mounts
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 12:18:11 pm
I have not seen anywhere on the Phase site anything regarding connectivity with USB 3.0.  This would be a leap forward for Phase as FW is on its way out.  I have an email in to my dealer (Capture Integration) regarding upgrade paths for my P45.  Have yet to hear from them.... will see how all of this shakes out. 

Lol, "have yet to hear from them" as in the last 3 hours? The three sales guys can't get off the phones from people putting down deposits. They will get back to you ASAP though - we're very appreciative of the chance to have your business!

In the meanwhile the upgrade path for a P45 is defined in our Phase One IQ Upgrade Prices Promotion (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/promotions/) blog entry.
P45 gives you 45% off the purchase of an IQ160 or IQ180. There will also be a cross-grade price to the IQ140 but that isn't finalized yet.

USB3: YES!
FW800: YES!
Backwards compatible to USB2 (think netbooks/macbook air): YES!
Backwards compatible to FW400: YES!

Phase One IQ Tethering Options (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/iq/#tethering)

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 12:18:45 pm
One of the great features of Leaf backs for tech camera users is that you can input the lens mm into the exif data before you take the picture, and is included in all files until you change it - a real lifesaver knowing what lens was used so I know which LCC file is needed. Is there anything like this with the new Phase backs?

That's a great question and wasn't covered in any of the presentations in person or by the web - I don't know but I'll get back to you as soon as I can!

Edit: Heard back from Phase One (boy are they quick!), basic answer is "maybe". Sorry it's not a yes or a no, but with the back not shipping until April there are a few features that are still "maybes".
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 12:21:00 pm
Based on the data sheets it looks like the IQ will be in the standard H, V, M and C mounts

Confirmed. Though the M mounts will be first to ship. V/H/C will be close behind.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: design_freak on January 24, 2011, 12:24:03 pm
Do you like the traces of the fingers on your I phone? (even iphone 4) I hate that. Cool technology, but in my opinion, misconceived idea. It's not a toy, a tool for the professional. Imagine how this display will look like after an hour of work. Not only that the fingers will touch the screen, it will be shooting touch your nose and the rest of the face of this beautiful display. Photographer should focus on their work and not wipe the screen from time to time. The decision to move to FW800 also amazes me. Apple withdraw from this standard for the Light Peak ... Since the MacBook Pro will not have a FW connector to which we attach this lovely camera? My idol, Stave Jobs is not in favor of USB 3.0. So the more I do not understand this step. Nice toy, but not worth the money ...
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: vjbelle on January 24, 2011, 12:35:15 pm
Jeez, a little edgy there Doug..... I simply stated the facts - it was not a criticism.  Calm down!
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 12:37:06 pm
Do you like the traces of the fingers on your I phone? (even iphone 4) I hate that. Cool technology, but in my opinion, misconceived idea. It's not a toy, a tool for the professional. Imagine how this display will look like after an hour of work. Not only that the fingers will touch the screen, it will be shooting touch your nose and the rest of the face of this beautiful display. Photographer should focus on their work and not wipe the screen from time to time. The decision to move to FW800 also amazes me. Apple withdraw from this standard for the Light Peak ... Since the MacBook Pro will not have a FW connector to which we attach this lovely camera? My idol, Stave Jobs is not in favor of USB 3.0. So the more I do not understand this step. Nice toy, but not worth the money ...

Way ahead of you! The Phase One IQ series ALSO has physical buttons from which you can access nearly all the same functions as by touch. Great for working with gloves or in a dirty environment.

As far as nose smudges your nose/holding-style may vary from mine, but for me the current P+ sits to the right of my nose (I shoot with my right eye) when shooting horizontal and completely out of the way when shooting vertical with all four major camera bodies I've used. Since the IQ series is roughly the same physical dimensions I'm guessing it won't be any problem (for my nose at least).

Apple is a near black hole when it comes to reliable info about their future products. But from my research it seems very likely the next generation of Apple laptops will have USB3 ports and a near sure bet they will have EITHER USB3 or FW800. Either way you can use the back at a very high tethering speed. I guess you can find something to complain about in any decision, but given that this is the only camera to take advantage of USB3 (backwards compatible to USB2) and also has FW800 (backwards compatible to FW400) it's really hard to see where you're complaining about it.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 12:39:01 pm
Jeez, a little edgy there Doug..... I simply stated the facts - it was not a criticism.  Calm down!

VJbelle, I was joking around. "a whole three hours?"  ;D

Sometimes writing doesn't convey intonation very well. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: bcooter on January 24, 2011, 12:46:03 pm
Basic marketing. ......snip........the majority of the rear part of the digital back there is not much more that can be imagined to make the screen better except ramp the brightness up even more. So I strongly suspect that even in 5 years the LCD on the Phase One IQ will be considered very good.



I just gave the link a quick glance, but I didn't see what camera platforms it supports other than the Mamiya.

I assume the first roll out of this is the phase/mamiya camera, then probably the H.

If it hits the shelves in a Hasselblad H mount quickly, then I can see these being a pretty decent rental camera, though this is 2011, not 2007 and the economics are much different today than they were 3.2 years ago.

With all due respect the LCD is needed, but does that mean there is a large preview imbedded in the raw, or does it produce a stand alone jpeg?

If it was 2007, I and a lot of others would be all over this, but today, it takes a lot to move someone and as I've said before I believe this is the basis of the next camera platform. 

(http://www.red.com/images/products/accessories/p_displays.png)

No mirror box, no prism, just big ol' honking lcds.

Leaf had a good idea with that swivel out lcd and RED's Epic has a swivel lcd which goes a long way to working in tight quarters.

It also goes a long way in taking the constant bend the neck pose of every photographer that peers into an lcd that is mounted rigid on a camera.

That way it won't look like we're shooting a crime scene on csi and probably will cut down on my neck massage bills.

(http://ishotit.com/csi_paris.jpg)

I'm not complaining and if I was buying a still only camera and it comes in an H mount, or contax mount I might be interested.  If it came with native higher iso at full rez I'd be a lot more interested.

The 4 grand warranty thing still bugs me, but I guess it bothers a lot of people.  Before I wrote that one out, I think I'd add a rider to my insurance policy that covered breakage.

Still you just know that real innovation is around the corner, where we have touch screen focus tracking, wireless something to remote view screens and a whole bunch of other stuff that will come for 40 to 50 large.

But . . . you'll never please everybody.   I had a friend drop by and see my RED and he said "hey, why can't I see an image on the lcd on the back of the camera?"   I said "hey man that's just for settings, but I have two 5.6" high def monitors mounted on this thing and since to get to the back of the RED ONE you have to walk 30 yards, why does it matter?"

His response . . . "yea but why not put a lcd on the back of the camera?, so to each his own.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BobDavid on January 24, 2011, 12:46:54 pm
How many working pros require 80 mega pixels? Hell, my CF 39MS has satisfied every professional requirement that I've had. If I were a rich guy with a passion for high-end toys...
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Graham Mitchell on January 24, 2011, 01:03:04 pm
What's your 3rd choice?  I assume your first two are Rollei 6008 and Hy6...  ;)

You assume correctly ;) My third platform would be the H...unlocked. I wouldn't want to switch to an H/P1 solution only to be locked out of the new bodies and lenses. Phase still has the problem of having great backs but not a great selection of cameras to use them on. (Clearly people are very divided on the M).
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 24, 2011, 01:14:29 pm
How many working pros require 80 mega pixels? Hell, my CF 39MS has satisfied every professional requirement that I've had. If I were a rich guy with a passion for high-end toys...


Wait, you shoot 39 megapixel multi shot images. Bob, of all people, you should understand the need for the resolution. There are working pros who will benefit from and purchase this product. It doesn't matter how many - there's enough to justify producing it (along with the other segments that it is ideal for). And it is not the only megapixel size available, there are smaller models to choose from. Why place a limit?

And I even forgot about the very strong side benefit of the 80MP, which is that this is a Sensor Plus product, meaning you can shoot 20MP at higher ISO (and still use the entire 645-sized sensor).

I am considering a blog entitled "New High ISO 20MP, 645 Full Frame Digital Back with High Rez Option". Not really, but considering photographers have for years requested a full frame 645, 22MP sensor that shoots high ISO with a good LCD, why not?  ::)


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: EricWHiss on January 24, 2011, 01:22:15 pm
Wow! Really looks like an improvement in usability!   

Is the sensor in the IQ180 the same as in the Aptus 12 and besides the sensor plus stuff and interface will there be any differences in image quality between the two?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: bcooter on January 24, 2011, 01:29:34 pm
..............snip.................
I am considering a blog entitled "New High ISO 20MP, 645 Full Frame Digital Back with High Rez Option". Not really, but considering photographers have for years requested a full frame 645, 22MP sensor that shoots high ISO with a good LCD, why not?  ::)


Steve,

You're 100% right 22 mpx that goes to high iso and a readable lcd has been asked for a long time . . . think 2005 . . ., but now Canon did it for a few grand.

This is a whole new world and the professional image making biz can still be very profitable, but it takes a lot of thinking, networking, and maximizing resources in ways we never dreamed of.

All you professional  medium format owners out there raise your hands . . . who doesn't own a canon and/or nikon?

I'm glad Phase redid their backs, see it as a positive, but I don't consider it anywhere near a breakthrough, not at 20 to 40 large.

I'm sure you'll sell em, I'm sure a lot of people will rent em', but to invest that amount it takes today comes a big gulp of where it leads you, because remember for about the same price you can get a full blown motion camera and throw a 5d2 into your bag for the stills the client requests.

IMO

BC

P.S.  I think I'll do a blog (actually don't worry I'll probably never do a blog cause I don't think anyone cares what I have for breakfast), but if I did do a blog I would call it, I use to say hold it, now I say rolling . . .speed . . .action.

Cut.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: design_freak on January 24, 2011, 01:43:14 pm
Way ahead of you! The Phase One IQ series ALSO has physical buttons from which you can access nearly all the same functions as by touch. Great for working with gloves or in a dirty environment.

As far as nose smudges your nose/holding-style may vary from mine, but for me the current P+ sits to the right of my nose (I shoot with my right eye) when shooting horizontal and completely out of the way when shooting vertical with all four major camera bodies I've used. Since the IQ series is roughly the same physical dimensions I'm guessing it won't be any problem (for my nose at least).

Apple is a near black hole when it comes to reliable info about their future products. But from my research it seems very likely the next generation of Apple laptops will have USB3 ports and a near sure bet they will have EITHER USB3 or FW800. Either way you can use the back at a very high tethering speed. I guess you can find something to complain about in any decision, but given that this is the only camera to take advantage of USB3 (backwards compatible to USB2) and also has FW800 (backwards compatible to FW400) it's really hard to see where you're complaining about it.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")


Dear Doug,
I am quite analytical. I see some risks that you can not see. I would not buy this DB, and then find out that the manufacturer made a mistake and did not foresee that the new MacBook Pro has no connectors (FW and USB 3.0) I will spend a lot of money, and stay with the problem. (I will not be able to use my camera.) So I wait for Apple step. I hope that I will not have to wait until Q3 2011.
Do not you think that "Light Peak" technology would be more development?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 01:44:09 pm

I just gave the link a quick glance, but I didn't see what camera platforms it supports other than the Mamiya.

The 4 grand warranty thing still bugs me, but I guess it bothers a lot of people.  Before I wrote that one out, I think I'd add a rider to my insurance policy that covered breakage.

The back includes a 1-year warranty. A five year warranty comes out to $1k/year for the four years it extends the warranty, plus provides a loaner during the duration of any repairs. I find that very reasonable.

I guess they could have charged $4k more for each model and made the 5-year warranty standard, but personally I much prefer the flexibility of getting to decide if it's worth the additional cost. Especially when a particular photographer may want to go the path you suggest and use other forms of insurance to provide for their needs.

To each his own.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 01:54:57 pm
Is the sensor in the IQ180 the same as in the Aptus 12 and besides the sensor plus stuff and interface will there be any differences in image quality between the two?

I think it's possible Phase will sneak a bit longer exposures (as in 15-30 seconds more) than the Aptus II 12 as they have typically gotten the most out of any mnfr from any given sensor. It's also possible that the revised electronics package (they said explicitly there is not a single piece of electronics that was not swapped out) might sneak a hair more DR. Up in the air until we get production models (est. April).

And of course the IQ180 has Sensor Plus for 20mp higher ISO and faster shooting which is a Phase-Only feature.

But for most applications the image quality will likely be nearly identical. Only a head to head test with a production model will tell for sure. This makes the Aptus II 12 a great option for those who want max resolution and image quality and are willing to compromise on some usability features to lower their cost of entry. Also the Aptus II 12 has some unique features like a rotatable sensor on the V and AFi mount backs).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Erick Boileau on January 24, 2011, 02:17:06 pm

Wait, you shoot 39 megapixel multi shot images. Bob, of all people, you should understand the need for the resolution. There are working pros who will benefit from and purchase this product. It doesn't matter how many - there's enough to justify producing it (along with the other segments that it is ideal for). And it is not the only megapixel size available, there are smaller models to choose from. Why place a limit?
because the files are heavy for nothing when you don't need it , and many of us don't need it,  the IQ140 has a crop 1.3 it is not a FF
it is necessary to know your own limits depending on your needs
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: EricWHiss on January 24, 2011, 02:26:24 pm
I'm not worried about a 5 year warrantee because before its up there will be the IQ500 out and ready for trade ins.  And anyhow what goes wrong with the backs over time? Either they are perfect out of the box or they aren't so 1 year is good enough to handle that if you get one with a line or banding or whatnot.  At least my impression is the probs mostly show up right away not failing over time.  I don't really consider the backs failing over time.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 02:26:43 pm
I am quite analytical. I see some risks that you can not see. I would not buy this DB, and then find out that the manufacturer made a mistake and did not foresee that the new MacBook Pro has no connectors (FW and USB 3.0) I will spend a lot of money, and stay with the problem. (I will not be able to use my camera.) So I wait for Apple step. I hope that I will not have to wait until Q3 2011.
Do not you think that "Light Peak" technology would be more development?

This series has more flexible tethering options (USB2/USB3/FW400/FW800) than any other camera in existence (let along digital back). I really cannot see your point.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 24, 2011, 02:44:55 pm
because the files are heavy for nothing when you don't need it , and many of us don't need it,  the IQ140 has a crop 1.3 it is not a FF
it is necessary to know your own limits depending on your needs


Erick, you and I always get into these megapixel discussions. I'm with you, sir. A photographer absolutely must know what tools he needs for the job in terms of his client's expectations and his own demands. Where we part ways is that I don't believe a manufacturer should create products that only meet the needs of some of their client base. While the photographers who need 80MP may be small, the actual revenue produced from those photographers probably exceeds the revenues from the less expensive 40MP product, even though (theoretically) one might presume $20K products sell in more quantity than $40K product. So for Phase One to not address this market doesn't make any sense. It's a substantial market for them. And if they only offered 80MP products, then, I could see the issue, but there are lower megapixel products available (P40+, P65+). Yes, the P40+ is a cropped sensor. But if you're asking for a small number of megapixels on a large sensor, that will never happen for quality reasons.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 24, 2011, 02:50:45 pm
Very short sighted about "what they could have..."

What they could have and should have done is a 2-3 year minimum standard warranty at no additional price if they really stand behind the product they ship out the door at that price point. We're not talking laptops, HDTVs and other shit like that. We're not talking $2500 5DII's. We're talking about a f*&king $44K item, you know like a car, a boat, we don't see those with 1 year warranties. Hasselblad and others need to do the same.

Innovation is not just 1's and 0's, it's also business models, policies and offerings that customers view as acceptable. A 12 month warranty is not acceptable at that price point. These backs have been proven to survive being frozen in elephant dung. No wait, sorry. Frozen, check. Stepped on by elephants, check. 1 year warranty, that's the dung.

If failure rates are low then absorb the small hit instead of raking in cash created out of false fear from your customer. The world economies have changed. Business as usual will only go so far.



They have made the decision to not offer extended warranties standard and instead, provide the pricing without it. Bear in mind you have the option of adding less expensive single year extended warranty periods if you don't wish to add a full 5 year warranty. Additional one year warranties have ranged from $699 - $999 for all previous models, though we don't yet have single year, extended warranty pricing confirmed yet on the IQ Series.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Erick Boileau on January 24, 2011, 02:53:08 pm
But if you're asking for a small number of megapixels on a large sensor, that will never happen for quality reasons.
Steve Hendrix
there is of course a market for a FF with 40 MP, many of us want it
40 MP on a FF  will  work very well, and I like big pixels for quality reasons
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 24, 2011, 03:01:19 pm
there is of course a market for a FF with 40 MP, many of us want it
40 MP on a FF  will  work very well, and I like big pixels for quality reasons


Phase One began the (close as you can get) full frame sensor series with the 60MP P65+. Now there is 80MP. You're saying they should go back to 40MP? So, 40MP, full frame for $3,000 less than the IQ60? And you would buy this product?


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Erick Boileau on January 24, 2011, 03:05:41 pm

Phase One began the (close as you can get) full frame sensor series with the 60MP P65+. Now there is 80MP. You're saying they should go back to 40MP? So, 40MP, full frame for $3,000 less than the IQ60? And you would buy this product?


Steve Hendrix
it will be cheaper of course
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 24, 2011, 03:13:49 pm
it will be cheaper of course


Yes, would you buy it?


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Erick Boileau on January 24, 2011, 03:55:13 pm

Yes, would you buy it?

Steve Hendrix
YES   I have sold my H1 and P45 but  I shall buy  a modern FF MF 40 MP  with good screen and good batteries, I shall take it at once, but I don't spoil 25000 euros for something that I don't want

Quote from: Steve Hendrix
But if you're asking for a small number of megapixels on a large sensor, that will never happen for quality reasons.
I guess a P45+ or P25+  with 39 MP was not  good quality DB in you opinion ?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 24, 2011, 04:00:46 pm
YES   I have sold my H1 and P45 but  I shall buy  a modern FF MF 40 MP  with good screen and good batteries
 I guess a P45+  wis 39 MP was not a good quality DB in you opinion ?


That was a larger sensor than the P40+. Why didn't you buy it? And in some ways, P40+ is a better quality file.

Are you saying that if you had the choice of IQ160 at $36,990 or the same exact product and sensor except only 40MP's, for $33,990, you would buy the 40MP version?


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Erick Boileau on January 24, 2011, 04:05:01 pm
$33,990 is too expensive for a 40 MP, far too much, for that price I can get a Leica S2 + lenses

I don't want 60 MP even at 5000 euro I shall not take it , never !  what shall I do with 60 MP ? 
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: JV on January 24, 2011, 04:12:40 pm

Has the upgrade cost from P30+ to IQ140 already been determined?

Also, will there be any change in upgrade cost from P30+ to P40+?

Thanks, Joris.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 04:22:22 pm
$33,990 is too expensive for a 40 MP, far too much, for that price I can get a Leica S2 + lenses

You misread. Phase One IQ140 is $21,990.

The S2 is also a good camera. But they are fairly dissimilar systems so it's kind of hard to compare in general (only for a specific person's needs/wants).

Has the upgrade cost from P30+ to IQ140 already been determined?

Also, will there be any change in upgrade cost from P30+ to P40+?

Phase One IQ Series Upgrade Promotion for the first quarter of the year places that upgrade from a P30+ to a IQ140 at $15,330.

Steve: P30+ to P40+?

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 24, 2011, 04:25:21 pm
You misread. Phase One IQ140 is $21,990.

The S2 is also a good camera. But they are fairly dissimilar systems so it's kind of hard to compare in general (only for a specific person's needs/wants).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")


Doug - this is imaginary, hypothetical, non-reality based.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: deejjjaaaa on January 24, 2011, 04:29:33 pm
a little off topic... was C1 upgraded to 6.0.2 for w/ new MFDBs ? and if so any chance to see what other cameras did they add to the list of supported bodies.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 24, 2011, 04:31:45 pm
$33,990 is too expensive for a 40 MP, far too much, for that price I can get a Leica S2 + lenses

I don't want 60 MP even at 5000 euro I shall not take it , never !  what shall I do with 60 MP ? 


Eric - then buy the S2. Phase One does not make a product for you. But they do make products for others.

Don't get me wrong, I mean I understand you. You yourself want this product at 40MP's - no higher! - and there may be others who would pay a little bit less to have 50% fewer pixels over the same sensor size. But it isn't going to happen. I understand you want less. I see no issue with Phase One making more.

And incidentally, you really better buy the S2, because Leica has stated they will never make the sensor any larger than 45mm x 30mm on future generations of the S series. At some point, they make actually increase the resolution though and then you'll be hosed!


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Erick Boileau on January 24, 2011, 04:38:09 pm
Leica has stated they will never make the sensor any larger than 45mm x 30mm on future generations of the S series. At some point, they make actually increase the resolution though and then you'll be hosed!
Steve Hendrix
except if Leica customers clearly don't want more or much more pixels
Title: ... retina type multi touch screen
Post by: BJL on January 24, 2011, 04:40:53 pm
I know you're joking, but just for an interesting point of reference, the Phase One IQ LCD is not just the best LCD of any digital back. It is the best LCD on any still camera.

(http://www.captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/Resolution-670x179.jpg)
From our Article on the Phase One IQ LCD (http://www.captureintegration.com/2011/01/23/resolution-of-camera-lcds/).
Second best LCD of any still camera: my "go everywhere" camera, an iPod Touch, has a larger, higher resolution "Retina Display". Somewhat worse resolution and DR though.

To be fair, using the full width of the back allows a wider screen than any SLR is likely to have, and so allows displaying some info. like histograms to the side of the preview rather than with annoying overlays.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: simplify on January 24, 2011, 04:43:35 pm
I would upgrade from my P45+ to the IQ180 tomorrow, if it allowed exposures more than one minute.  Long exposures are a huge factor for me, and my P45+ is still the highest resolution back that can handle long exposures.  I am sad that long exposure shooters have been left out in the dust by Phase One, with no upgrade options since the P45+
JP
http://www.JPJespersen.com
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 04:44:38 pm
Second best LCD of any still camera: my "go everywhere" camera, an iPod Touch, has a larger, higher resolution "Retina Display". Somewhat worse resolution and DR though.

 ;D
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: tho_mas on January 24, 2011, 05:04:53 pm
I just gave the link a quick glance, but I didn't see what camera platforms it supports other than the Mamiya.
there is a Contax mount. nice!
Title: sensor cost is more about size than pixel count
Post by: BJL on January 24, 2011, 05:12:59 pm
it will be cheaper of course
Why do you think a 40MP sensor would be cheaper if it were the same size as the 60MP and 80MP ones? MF sensor production costs are dominated by size, not pixel count, so a 40MP sensor of the same size as the current 60MP and 80MP Dalsa ones would cost about the same to make. Yes, backs with an older generation sensor of the same size and lower pixel count typically cost less, but that is mostly about "market value" (the lower res. options are in less demand, despite what one might think by reading some forums), and the fact that the development costs of the older, lower res. sensor has been defrayed, so it can be profitably sold at lower price by the sensor maker.

P. S. The image quality advantages sometimes attribute to larger photosites are in fact almost entirely due to larger sensors: fewer, bigger photosites will not have much effect on the DR seen in final image when displayed at the same size, only on misleading "per pixel" lab measurements and such.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Dennis Carbo on January 24, 2011, 05:20:05 pm
P. S. The image quality advantages sometimes attribute to larger photosites are in fact almost entirely due to larger sensors: fewer, bigger photosites will not have much effect on the DR seen in final image when displayed at the same size, only on misleading "per pixel" lab measurements and such. 

Don't larger photosites generally give an image with less noise ?  I always thought that was a plus in larger photosites...is that not the case ?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Jozef Zajaz on January 24, 2011, 05:24:16 pm
Wow amazing to see how many ppl bitch about the new cameras dont have this dont do that.

Lol if you dont like it dont buy it. There will never be a camera that satisfies every photographer EVERYone has diffrent needs. You simply find the camera that has the most things you need and get it then create stunning images.

I'm a superhappy p30+ user and probably wont upgrade because I dont have the money for the investment. I love my p30+ and use it as much as I can but im as happy when i have to shoot low light situations and switch to my 5dII because in the end it all comes down to ONE think to capture that image that your client will be happy with.

(I'm pretty sure that 80% of the photographers clients here would never see the diffrence of a image from a 5dII or a IQ180 shot in studio and then retouched for print)

Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 05:46:26 pm
Don't larger photosites generally give an image with less noise ?  I always thought that was a plus in larger photosites...is that not the case ?

If all else was equal then yes larger pixels should have less noise.

But there are other factors like the % of the sensor that is actually gathering light (as opposed to electronics packages seated next to the active pixels, or the size of the walls between pixels). As well the read-out technology, A/D convertor, black frame technology and other technology/electronics have all improved over time. The end result is that each generation of sensors has actually (modestly) improved in DR/noise as the sensor pixel sizes went from 12 to 9 to 6.8 to 6 microns. Phase is claiming a similar "scootch" more improvement with the 5.2 micron sensor - of course I want to see it to believe it.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: JV on January 24, 2011, 05:48:11 pm
I'm a superhappy p30+ user and probably wont upgrade because I dont have the money for the investment. I love my p30+ and use it as much as I can but im as happy when i have to shoot low light situations and switch to my 5dII because in the end it all comes down to ONE think to capture that image that your client will be happy with.

Same here.  I think the P30+ is great.  It covers all my needs except low light situations.

I will need to look for a solution outside of Phase.  I cannot justify a $15K upgrade cost for better ISO (with lower resolution) and a good LCD.

The previous upgrade cost (to a P40+) was $10K, so you pay now $5K additional for the LCD screen.  This is twice the price of a 5Dmk2.

Mindboggling and insane!  I am sure it will be an excellent product but the pricing is pure madness.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: AldoMurillo on January 24, 2011, 07:13:05 pm

Eric - then buy the S2. Phase One does not make a product for you. But they do make products for others.

Don't get me wrong, I mean I understand you. You yourself want this product at 40MP's - no higher! - and there may be others who would pay a little bit less to have 50% fewer pixels over the same sensor size. But it isn't going to happen. I understand you want less. I see no issue with Phase One making more.

And incidentally, you really better buy the S2, because Leica has stated they will never make the sensor any larger than 45mm x 30mm on future generations of the S series. At some point, they make actually increase the resolution though and then you'll be hosed!


Steve Hendrix

I guess we will have to wait for the iQ1-160 for the FF 40 MP back... of course in sensor+ mode  :D
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: NROCH on January 24, 2011, 07:41:41 pm
I would upgrade from my P45+ to the IQ180 tomorrow, if it allowed exposures more than one minute.  Long exposures are a huge factor for me, and my P45+ is still the highest resolution back that can handle long exposures.  I am sad that long exposure shooters have been left out in the dust by Phase One, with no upgrade options since the P45+
JP
http://www.JPJespersen.com

I second that! my p45+ is awesome and a 1 min exposure time limit is just no good. The new backs, although very attractive, are instantly no good because of this problem!
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 07:46:20 pm
I second that! my p45+ is awesome and a 1 min exposure time limit is just no good. The new backs, although very attractive, are instantly no good because of this problem!

That is to say "no good" for your needs.  ;)

If you often need more than 1 minute exposures than the P45+ is the best back in the world for you :-).
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Paul C. on January 24, 2011, 07:55:04 pm
That is to say "no good" for your needs.  ;)

Cut the sleezy sales bs. If someone had said "the new backs are fantastic!" would you have felt the need to chime in with "maybe 'fantastic' for you"?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: EricWHiss on January 24, 2011, 08:10:29 pm
If all else was equal then yes larger pixels should have less noise.

But there are other factors like the % of the sensor that is actually gathering light (as opposed to electronics packages seated next to the active pixels, or the size of the walls between pixels). As well the read-out technology, A/D convertor, black frame technology and other technology/electronics have all improved over time. The end result is that each generation of sensors has actually (modestly) improved in DR/noise as the sensor pixel sizes went from 12 to 9 to 6.8 to 6 microns. Phase is claiming a similar "scootch" more improvement with the 5.2 micron sensor - of course I want to see it to believe it.


OK , I won't debate the point on DR (even though the sensor spec sheets quote lower SNR numbers for most of the chips made after the 9micron ones (at least for Kodak)).   Maybe the difference is made up in the other electronics?

However for DOF concerns,  doesn't the sensel size make a difference because of diffraction effects? 2nd question: Does the sensor plus technology help mitigate the diffraction loses for small apertures? I mean if a group of pixels is binned does it act like a larger sensor well?

And just to add....definitely I'd consider purchasing one of the new phase backs if I could fit one to my cameras as I am looking at the AFi-ii 12 now.   I really like the phase software and the new interface and screen look fantastic.


Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: hubell on January 24, 2011, 08:55:52 pm
Paradoxically, the Focus Mask and limited Live View features of the new Phase backs just may be the perfect solution for the Hasselblad tilt/shift device with H mount Phase backs and old H1s and H2s.  I have tried using it untethered, and I found it impossible to focus with it accurately by looking through the viewfinder or by inspecting the LCD on my current Phase back. (Same problem with a tech camera, and you don't even have a viewfinder.) I am very interested to see how effective the Live View and Focus Mask features are in practice for fine tuning focus and depth of field. I also don't see why the Focus Mask feature could not be used by a camera's firmware to bracket  automatically for focus through the entire image.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Ken Doo on January 24, 2011, 09:25:05 pm
I also don't see why the Focus Mask feature could not be used by a camera's firmware to bracket  automatically for focus through the entire image.

Now that would be really cool.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: richardhagen on January 24, 2011, 10:47:57 pm
Cut the sleezy sales bs.

BOOYAH!!! you took the words right out of my mouth! thanks paul.

rh
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 24, 2011, 11:00:57 pm
Cut the sleezy sales bs. If someone had said "the new backs are fantastic!" would you have felt the need to chime in with "maybe 'fantastic' for you"?

Cut me a break. I'm tired - not enough sleep the last 72 hours!  ;D

You know I'm not a sleezy sales guy  8)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BobDavid on January 24, 2011, 11:18:48 pm
All I can say, is that these 60mp and 80mp backs will yield excellent hand-held results if you're using strobes  in the studio. Otherwise, you'll need to lock up the mirror (to lose mirror-slap vibrations) and stick the camera onto a tripod to avoid human shake. This kind of resolution will amplify the vibrations caused by the Prius pulling up into the studio parking lot. A friend of mine metioned that aerial photography is a good application for these ultra-high resolution backs. That makes sense.

Whether aloft or earthbound, it's a given that super-duper optics mated with vibration-free shutters are required to get the most from these mega-sensors.

The main reason I use a CF 39MS back is color accuracy for fine art reproduction. If I didn't shoot artwork, I'd be content with a regular 39MP back. The Sony a850 sees a lot of use these days.

Interesting times. It would be fun to play around with the IQ 80. If so, I'd probably need to install a solid state terabyte drive for a Photoshop scratch disc and piggy-back my I-7 motherboard with another.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 24, 2011, 11:32:41 pm
Cut the sleezy sales bs. If someone had said "the new backs are fantastic!" would you have felt the need to chime in with "maybe 'fantastic' for you"?


We are nothing if not sleazy!  ;)

But this is not bs.

We have an incredible variety of clients. Aside from the many various conditions, environments, and subjects they deal with, what works for one individual who photographs in similar situations as another is often completely different and extremely subjective. So, yes we're alert to the idea that a feature lacking for one is declared a problem or flaw in the product.

Honestly sometimes I just think it is the language - and it is the internet. Hard to say.

But I'd love a product that had all the boxes checked. Unfortunately I've never met such a thing.

And Doug is not even in sales. I'm supposed to be the sleazy sales guy...

I actually like the idea of saying "maybe fantastic for you! I'm going to try it sometime.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: jduncan on January 24, 2011, 11:45:50 pm
Cheers to Phase one. The backs look head and shoulders above the competency.  Is nice to see that they invest in core technologies including internal processing. Instead of trying to force the old chips to handle the new sensors and displays. They avoided a pipeline that lacks the performance to handle the sensor and the display. I also believe that the new backs are an excellent platform for the future.  The comparative chart is quiet telling. Is the H4D-60 double resolution working? they seem generous with the competency. That alone tell us how confident they are in the new line.

I have a couple questions:
1. In capture integration the buffer is listed as 1.5GB. Is this a typo? in any case the important number is the fps and the numbers are impressive :)
2. Dynamic range vs the P65+ any ideas or comments. Sensor+
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: bradleygibson on January 24, 2011, 11:56:59 pm
We are nothing if not sleazy!  ;)

LOL!!  Love the sense of humor, Steve!  :)

Sorry if this has been asked, but does anyone know if the IQ180 and the Aptus-II 12 are using the same chip?  I don't imagine Dalsa has too many different 80MP designs laying around, but then again, who knows, two isn't that implausible...
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 24, 2011, 11:58:43 pm
Hi,

On the DR issue, reducing the sensor pitch from say 6my to 5.2 my would reduce "full well size" with 25%. I don't think that it would have any major effect on DR.

On the diffraction issue, diffraction is a property of light, so it would not be affected sensor size. The only parameters affecting diffraction is size of aperture and wavelength of light. The only way sensor pitch affects diffraction is that with a smaller sensor pitch there is more to loose. You will probably see no difference between a 16MP sensor and a 80 MP sensor somewhere around f/22 or f/32.

The series below show the effects of diffraction on an APS sensor with 4.2 micron pitch and also the effect of defocusing 3, 6 and 9 cm at 3.0 meters using a 100 macro lens:

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/49-dof-in-digital-pictures?start=1


Best regards
Erik




OK , I won't debate the point on DR (even though the sensor spec sheets quote lower SNR numbers for most of the chips made after the 9micron ones (at least for Kodak)).   Maybe the difference is made up in the other electronics?

However for DOF concerns,  doesn't the sensel size make a difference because of diffraction effects? 2nd question: Does the sensor plus technology help mitigate the diffraction loses for small apertures? I mean if a group of pixels is binned does it act like a larger sensor well?

And just to add....definitely I'd consider purchasing one of the new phase backs if I could fit one to my cameras as I am looking at the AFi-ii 12 now.   I really like the phase software and the new interface and screen look fantastic.



Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 25, 2011, 12:02:58 am
Cheers to Phase one. The backs look head and shoulders above the competency.  Is nice to see that they invest in core technologies including internal processing. Instead of trying to force the old chips to handle the new sensors and displays. They avoided a pipeline that lacks the performance to handle the sensor and the display. I also believe that the new backs are an excellent platform for the future.  The comparative chart is quiet telling. Is the H4D-60 double resolution working? they seem generous with the competency. That alone tell us how confident they are in the new line.

I have a couple questions:
1. In capture integration the buffer is listed as 1.5GB. Is this a typo? in any case the important number is the fps and the numbers are impressive :)
2. Dynamic range vs the P65+ any ideas or comments. Sensor+


Maybe nice for you JDuncan!

There.

I don't know if I can answer your questions. Not sure about the buffer - it may be 1GB, rather than 1.5Gb, but I will confirm this with Doug. I expect the dynamic range to be very similar as it is the same (base) sensor, I believe. But these are entirely new and advanced on board electronics, so I suppose it is possible there's enhancement. We can test this at the USA Dealer IQ Series launch in Atlanta on February 8.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: EricWHiss on January 25, 2011, 01:50:33 am

 You will probably see no difference between a 16MP sensor and a 80 MP sensor somewhere around f/22 or f/32.


In a way I have already made this comparison myself.  I do see diffraction effects on my ixpress between f/16 an f/22 on single or 4 shot mode (9um sensel), but around f/8 (maybe even f/6.8) when its set to microstep mode (effective 4.5 um sensel).  There's an article here on LuLa that has a table where the maximum useful MP for a given sensor size and aperture.  The table even breaks it down by wavelength of light.  

 Edit: I've found it!  Scroll down to table 3. in the article.... http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/resolution.shtml     Well have a look.... the table corroborates with my empirical data.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: HarperPhotos on January 25, 2011, 04:32:16 am
Hello

Well my take on this new development is.

I have a Leaf Aptus 75 which is now close to been 5 years old. I has made me 100’s of thousand of dollars and it is still going strong. So what the point of spending my hard earned money on another back. Its is not going to increases my income by one cent.
 
Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: eronald on January 25, 2011, 07:12:02 am
Cheers to Phase one. The backs look head and shoulders above the competency.

I do agree.  :D

Edmund
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: MrSmith on January 25, 2011, 07:45:04 am
you forgot 'a usable 400-800 asa and not a grainy noisefest'
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: aaron on January 25, 2011, 09:40:52 am
Phase must know something about the state of global economies that nobody else does.

The price of most items is going down(or at worst remains the same)  while the specs go up. That applies to cameras/cars/houses/ Tv's, but not to Phase One products.

Every potential customer screams for a better lcd display and live view. Well years later Phase delivers it! except they now want you loyal customers to pay thousands more for the privilege.

Ridiculous. The prices are a joke. 
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: bcooter on January 25, 2011, 09:43:28 am
Hello

Well my take on this new development is.

I have a Leaf Aptus 75 which is now close to been 5 years old. I has made me 100’s of thousand of dollars and it is still going strong. So what the point of spending my hard earned money on another back. Its is not going to increases my income by one cent.


Simon,

I don't think they're selling to you.

Sure they'll take the order, but if you glance (glance not read) over all the e-mails and web links Phase has sent out on this camera they mention image quality about 4,000 times.

Heck they even named it I(mage) Q(qualtiy).

I'm surprised they didn't name it SIQ.

It's kind of like going to a Southern Baptist Church and hearing the phrase "Hell and Damnation".    They say it so much it becomes kind of funny and they sell it so hard it makes you wanna take the preacher's daughter out to really go sin.

No I think this is all for the semi wealthy guy or the semi professional that thinks a camera will make them a better photographer.

This is for the guy who really doesn't know that most of all good commercial work is shot with a Canon or Nikon dslr and 75% of all medium format for professionals is shot with some kind of Hasselblad camera with some kind of 1 generation old digital back.

For the last few years Phase' market has been pushing that way, think PODAS, so they use phrases like "the most advancement in mfd cameras ever" because the people that don't know any better believe it.

Well . . . no this is not the most advancement.  

The Leaf AFI with a flip up LCD and internal rotating sensor  was way more advanced, because those things were useful for a professional and Leaf had a touch screen LCD a billion years ago.

All this is is just another digital back with more megapixels and a better lcd, but heck at this point everything on the planet has a good LCD.

If it was the most advanced it wouldn't be aimed at the third time warmed over Mamiya camera.

But, once again they're not selling to you, because if they were it would have a base iso of 800, in internal nd filter, real useable live view, an hdmi port for an optional high def lcd, a removable prism or no prism at all and it wouldn't have that tacky $4,000 warranty hooked to it.

It would be truly modular and the phrase "open system" would mean it has a back mount that would be user interchangeable and would shoot at least at the same speed as a film medium format camera.  

Contrast this Phase announcement to RED.

If Phase was selling to you they would have a direct line and manufacturer representation on the forums.

The information you would receive would be first hand from the maker, not second hand from the dealer.  

Not that RED is the pinnacle of medium format because RED is not medium format for stills and RED is not the pinnacle of meeting deadlines because they have missed a bunch of them,  but RED has the owners participation on their forum and everything RED makes or sells is aimed directly at professionals.

Everything.

But then again, I don't think RED is pressuring anybody to buy anything (in fact go try and buy a new EPIC), though if you run the numbers for the last few years RED has conservatively sold half a billion dollars in product.  Probably a lot more than that.

But then again, the RED is truly innovative for the professional.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 25, 2011, 11:51:39 am
Hello

Well my take on this new development is.

I have a Leaf Aptus 75 which is now close to been 5 years old. I has made me 100’s of thousand of dollars and it is still going strong. So what the point of spending my hard earned money on another back. Its is not going to increases my income by one cent.
 
Cheers

Simon


Simon, don't buy the upgrade. It doesn't offer features you're missing. It is a great testament to medium format that your Aptus 75 can still function as your workhorse 5 years after you've bought it.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: mhecker* on January 25, 2011, 11:55:18 am
Simon,

I don't think they're selling to you.

No I think this is all for the semi wealthy guy or the semi professional that thinks a camera will make them a better photographer.



I believe this is right on the mark.

Phase One is using the Leica market strategy.
The big question is  will the world be big enough for two MF players in Leicas niche?

Time will tell.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 25, 2011, 12:12:27 pm
Phase must know something about the state of global economies that nobody else does.

The price of most items is going down(or at worst remains the same)  while the specs go up. That applies to cameras/cars/houses/ Tv's, but not to Phase One products.

Every potential customer screams for a better lcd display and live view. Well years later Phase delivers it! except they now want you loyal customers to pay thousands more for the privilege.

Ridiculous. The prices are a joke. 


The price of a top of the line DSLR has been $7,995 and remains unchanged since 2002, with the launch of the 11MP Canon 1DS. Prices don't always go down. In fact, most of the time, prices on most products worldwide - cars, houses, food, Canon cameras, either go up or remain unchanged.

The pricing on the IQ series is not significantly different than traditional medium format digital pricing. The P65+ launched 2.5 years ago, was $39,990. The P40+ launched at $19,990.

Phase One almost always offers trade credit on your existing product well above what you could sell it for. I see nothing ridiculous or unfair about Phase One's pricing.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: eronald on January 25, 2011, 12:28:37 pm

The price of a top of the line DSLR has been $7,995 and remains unchanged since 2002, with the launch of the 11MP Canon 1DS. Prices don't always go down. In fact, most of the time, prices on most products worldwide - cars, houses, food, Canon cameras, either go up or remain unchanged.

The pricing on the IQ series is not significantly different than traditional medium format digital pricing. The P65+ launched 2.5 years ago, was $39,990. The P40+ launched at $19,990.

Phase One almost always offers trade credit on your existing product well above what you could sell it for. I see nothing ridiculous or unfair about Phase One's pricing.


Steve Hendrix

Steve,

 You don't see anything ridiculous or unfair about this pricing?
 Maybe we as customers have different opinions at this point.
 I wouldn't call it unfair, just priced in fantasy-land.
 Good luck making us pay. And I say this as a Phase owner.
 I'm setting up a shoot next week with an award-winning film producer, and this is going to be done on an iPhone. I'm sure you'll enjoy the laugh.

Edmund

Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 25, 2011, 12:40:54 pm
I'm setting up a shoot next week with an award-winning film producer, and this is going to be done on an iPhone. I'm sure you'll enjoy the laugh.

Is it being done for a reason other than the following:
 - intellectual curiosity ("I wonder if / how well we can make this work")
 - cross promotional / novelty appeal ("this will get us links from blogs & articles")
 - complete lack of budget

If so I'm very curious.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 25, 2011, 12:53:57 pm
I'd hate to see the vitriol if Phase One delivered just what was being asked for (a usable LCD and Live View). You ask and ask (justifiably), and then they deliver (and dramatically exceed what was being asked for), and then you complain about how long it took. But I am surprised at how much the improvements are being glossed over. If it was indeed just a "better LCD screen", say 460,000 or even 920,000 standard LCD, I'd be a little disappointed also. But frankly, I think the reactions are a little bit of sour grapes, a little bit of piling on the easy target, medium format.

It's a little more than a better LCD and Live View. I think "better LCD" drastically understates the display technology and functionality:

*3.2 inch Retina Touch Dispay with the highest resolution of any professional camera
*Dual interface options (touch screen, or button-based)
*Swipe-technology Touch Screen Interface
*Button based, simple interface workflow
*Multiple interface options including USB2, USB3, FW400, FW800
*In Camera Focus Mask
*In Camera battery charger
*1GB buffer, UDMA 6, 9 Cores, zero shot pauses, fill the entire card
*Dual Resolution with no sensor crop
*In Camera Live View
*Aerospace Grade Aluminum

Does it have a flip out LCD? No. Guess what? Neither does any professional product from Canon or Nikon (they will eventually). But they don't today. Does the sensor internally rotate? No (not that it is possible with 3 of the primary camera interfaces it would be used on (Mamiya/Phase, Hassselbald H, Contax). It would be nice though. Perhaps that remains Leaf's niche.

Considering that recent generations have primarily only been about adding megapixels (22MP>39MP, etc), I find this the most significant upgrade for medium format in years (although I also feel the Sensor Plus technology was incredibly important and will be even more so in the future).

Medium format costs more. It is larger. It is slower. Use it for what it is for. However, I feel these products do represent an opportunity for photographers to use these products much more than they would previously. It would be great if medium format wasn't so expensive, and as a result, more viable for more of the commercial market. It was a tough buying decision 5 years ago. Today - even more so. From the interest, it would seem many want large sensors. But the technology has inherent limitations and is incredibly expensive to bring to market.


Steve Hendrix






 
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 25, 2011, 01:01:20 pm
Steve,

 You don't see anything ridiculous or unfair about this pricing?
 Maybe we as customers have different opinions at this point.
 I wouldn't call it unfair, just priced in fantasy-land.
 Good luck making us pay. And I say this as a Phase owner.
 I'm setting up a shoot next week with an award-winning film producer, and this is going to be done on an iPhone. I'm sure you'll enjoy the laugh.

Edmund



No, I don't. That you don't feel it offers an acceptable ROI is your subjective circumstance - and may be completely justified. However, that alone does not make the pricing unfair or ridiculous. If you upgrade to an IQ160 from P45+, you receive at least $17,000 trade credit for the P45+. If you upgrade to IQ180 from P45+, you receive $20,000 trade credit. Recently I sold a demo P45+ for $13,490. End user to end user P45+ sales range from $11,000 - $12,000. What is unfair about this? Please, tell me.

You don't know me Edward, though you think you do. I won't rise to your bait of "laughing at your iPhone". I respect all devices that photographers use to create their imagery. Anyone who really knows me would be aware of this.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Ed Jack on January 25, 2011, 01:09:07 pm
Nice to see all the news backs are availble in a contax 645 mount... makes it all the more strange that the AFi and Rolleiflex mount doesn't seem to be supported, especially given Leaf's invovlement. A conspiracy theorist would be thinking that vestages of the Leaf mangement want the Afi platform preserved on Leaf backs only, or even the preserve of the Leaf backs at 80MP ?!! Still don't think it costs much to have another mount developed and made available.

 Ed
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: JonathanBenoit on January 25, 2011, 01:23:43 pm
I didnt bother to read all the posts. sorry if Im restating the obvious.
I think this new db line will be very appealing to field photographers such as for architecture and landscape. I bet most of the negative posts about price come from photographers that do not need live-view to the same extent.
However, I still cant see the justification in the extra expense. It is pretty bold of phase one to increase the price of their flagship back.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 25, 2011, 01:43:33 pm
I didnt bother to read all the posts. sorry if Im restating the obvious.
I think this new db line will be very appealing to field photographers such as for architecture and landscape. I bet most of the negative posts about price come from photographers that do not need live-view to the same extent.
However, I still cant see the justification in the extra expense. It is pretty bold of phase one to increase the price of their flagship back.


Agree that the new features may not appeal to everyone. I own photographic products also and I don't always upgrade with each new version.

The justification is the cost of the product. It is priced where P1 feels they can make a profit back on their investment and r&d. And is priced where it as a result. They are a very smart company from a business standpoint. They have priced the products where they feel they will result in the appropriate amount of sales at an appropriate margin for them to hit the target they have set for themselves as a company, just like anyone else (including commercial photographers, many of whom undervalue their products and services).

A brand new Phase One IQ160 Kit with DF Camera and 80mm Schneider Lens costs $3,000 less than a Hasselblad H4D-60. Why don't you bash Hasselblad's pricing? Why should Phase One charge even less?


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: eronald on January 25, 2011, 01:53:20 pm
Doug,

How about

- Huge depth of field
- Good location acceptance in tight super-busy quarters.
- and last not least - really nice look.
- I am deadly tired of ACR, Photoshop and all that sh*t.

Edmund



Is it being done for a reason other than the following:
 - intellectual curiosity ("I wonder if / how well we can make this work")
 - cross promotional / novelty appeal ("this will get us links from blogs & articles")
 - complete lack of budget

If so I'm very curious.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 25, 2011, 01:57:28 pm
- Huge depth of field
- Good location acceptance in tight super-busy quarters.
- and last not least - really nice look.

Sounds Great! Enjoy the shoot.

You know I know every camera has advantages and disadvantages and it's all about compromise. Knowing you (at least a little) I figured you had a good reason. It does bother me when someone uses an iPhone / still-grab-from-video / pseudo-antique-process or other equipment/process for the novelty or promotional appeal - but clearly that is not the case for this shoot or for you.

I figured if you were doing it there must be a good reason (for your application). Make sure to share (whatever public-able) footage!
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BlasR on January 25, 2011, 02:13:34 pm
Steve,

Why Hasselblad should be bash?
and that price is for the Ignoring Q160, no the IQ180. 

I do not have problem with Phase one.  I can be with them if when i had problem, someone help me, but
no one did, so I change in I have now the H4D-60.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Jack Flesher on January 25, 2011, 02:14:56 pm
Here we go...

(http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/nothisagain.jpg)


Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 25, 2011, 02:29:54 pm
Steve,

Why Hasselblad should be bash?
and that price is for the Ignoring Q160, no the IQ180. 

I do not have problem with Phase one.  I can be with them if when i had problem, someone help me, but
no one did, so I change in I have now the H4D-60.


Blas -

I have not bashed Hassleblad. No one has. I am wondering why a Phase One product that uses the same sensor as a Hasselblad is getting bashed instead of Hasselblad because of its price when it is $3,000 less than the Hasselblad?


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BobDavid on January 25, 2011, 02:34:15 pm
It's time to move on from this thread. The market will determine how Phase One's new offerings will be received. At least the bar has been raised in a certain segment of photography. Phase One, Hasselblad, Leica, and Apple do not force anyone to buy their products.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: TMARK on January 25, 2011, 02:44:30 pm
I don't get the negative vibes.  These backs offer what I wanted back when the P65 came out.  They are stupid expensive, but what else is new, they have always been stupid expensive.  

Some of the comments remind me of the Republicans attacking the health Care Reform Act:  absurdist and strange, fear mongering about Apple leaving your back unsupported.  If you don't like the new backs, don't buy them.  Their price tag makes that course of action an easy enough proposition.  

What Phase should do is have Mamiya make a digital RZ along the lines of the AFi/Hy6. Come to think of it, they should use an adapter system like Blad and Sinar, so that you can use the back on whatever camera you want.  That would be an open system.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: uaiomex on January 25, 2011, 02:48:35 pm
Ok, I'll give you a break now. You vastly need it before you have to be committed. :D

I went again through all specs from the new P1 backs. I've changed my mind somehow. They are indeed a significant advance in DMF back manufacturing. If the coming live view works for portraits and studio work, it will pass. The implementation of the retina lcd is a first in the industry and in fact a huge advance in this department for dmf. I wish (I expected) this new line of backs had better prices, but no.  Will these new backs produce lower prices for the used P+ backs? . Nope, I don't think so since these backs are limited to 1 minute exposures.
It seems to me that P1 did an enormous effort bringing all this new engineering inside these new backs. If it is of any good, Kudos to PhaseOne for the effort. I'm not schizo, it's just that I'm entitled to rectify.  ::)  And I say this despite it was not of any benefit for my practice in any way whatsoever.
Eduardo

Here we go...

(http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/nothisagain.jpg)



Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: eronald on January 25, 2011, 02:52:46 pm
I'm also changing my mind. I think that Phase are now selling basically to the same market as Bentley. For that crowd, a few thousand dollars here and there doesn't even matter, what matters is the product rep and impact. So good luck to Steve and Doug, it's a new world out there.

Edmund

PS I'm sure you'll be able to get the decent screen and the same sensors on the Pentax in a year or so, for half the price. I've seen this film before with Nikon and Zeiss Ikon.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BJNY on January 25, 2011, 02:57:36 pm
.....Come to think of it, they should use an adapter system like Blad and Sinar, so that you can use the back on whatever camera you want.  That would be an open system.

Have doubt it will happen

as tighter integration is necessary for [ever] decreasing tolerances.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: gss on January 25, 2011, 03:07:28 pm
I may be the only one who thinks this, but I think the inclusion of in-camera focus mask is the most exciting new feature.  I am quite impressed by the many small changes made by PhaseOne which together will really help people's workflow.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: PierreVandevenne on January 25, 2011, 03:16:09 pm
I'm also changing my mind. I think that Phase are now selling basically to the same market as Bentley.

Look at their balance sheet. Take the individual product prices. Assume a discount for resellers. Add software, accessories, lenses, lower end backs to the mix. Look at Bentley's sales numbers. Conclusion: they are selling far less than Bentley but significantly more than Bugatti. ;-)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: cyberean on January 25, 2011, 03:52:34 pm
Simon,

I don't think they're selling to you.

Sure they'll take the order, but if you glance (glance not read) over all the e-mails and web links Phase has sent out on this camera they mention image quality about 4,000 times.

Heck they even named it I(mage) Q(qualtiy).

...


you don't know that for sure ... do you ...
for all we know it could be any of the following ...

Information Quality
Intelligence Quotient
Installation Qualification
Indefinite Quantity
Inhibitory Quotient
Inverse Quantization


personally, i'm leaning towards the following two ...
Indefinite Quantity
Inhibitory Quotient


Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 25, 2011, 03:56:13 pm
If the coming live view works for portraits and studio work, it will pass. The implementation of the retina lcd is a first in the industry and in fact a huge advance in this department for dmf.

As we very clearly say on our Phase One IQ (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/iq/) page it will not work for portraits or fashion. If by studio work you mean product, still life, and macro then absolutely yes. If by studio work you mean portraits or fashion then no.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Jozef Zajaz on January 25, 2011, 03:59:27 pm
Steve,

 You don't see anything ridiculous or unfair about this pricing?
 Maybe we as customers have different opinions at this point.
 I wouldn't call it unfair, just priced in fantasy-land.
 Good luck making us pay. And I say this as a Phase owner.
 I'm setting up a shoot next week with an award-winning film producer, and this is going to be done on an iPhone. I'm sure you'll enjoy the laugh.

Edmund



If most ppl are willing to pay that amount of money for that product so no! A company always strides to sell their product for as much as possible.
Dont think Phase One  would price the backs the way they do if the didnt think/knew ppl would buy the product.

Porsche charges around 100k for a car base price because they can. Sure there are probably a bunch of ppl bitching/complaining about that as well but if the want a car they also have the possibility to buy a used Honda or whatever.

If you dont like the price dont buy it.....
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: EricWHiss on January 25, 2011, 04:02:26 pm
Have doubt it will happen

as tighter integration is necessary for [ever] decreasing tolerances.

I'd be excited about an adapter plate system, and I'm sure there are many ways to circumvent mechanical positioning errors that would be ton cheaper to implement than a new screen.  I'd really like to see some kind of alignment check with adjusts anyhow that would allow users to calibrate both the focus and alignment. I've been dreaming of a back mount system that had movements.

Well none of this takes away from the improvements Phase has just made.  I do think the new IQ backs represent significant advancements.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: amsp on January 25, 2011, 04:05:26 pm
I'm with Mark, the reactions in this thread are ridiculous. Fortunately for PhaseOne most of their professional clients don't spend their time raging on internet forums. Don't get me wrong, I would like more for less as much as the next guy, but jeesh no one is forcing me to buy their products. So what if wealthy amateurs are buying these cameras, it only grows the used market for us poor sods that have to make a living shooting ;) Get a grip people, you are not entitled to this gear, just be happy there are options in the first place and that companies like P1 are working on advancing the MFD segment at all. Don't like it, don't buy it, it's as easy as that. But don't be presumptuous and think that YOUR needs are that of everyone else. For the record, I'm not buying one at launch, but down the line who knows, maybe I'll pick one up used. At least I'll have the option.

Back to work...


I don't get the negative vibes.  These backs offer what I wanted back when the P65 came out.  They are stupid expensive, but what else is new, they have always been stupid expensive.  

Some of the comments remind me of the Republicans attacking the health Care Reform Act:  absurdist and strange, fear mongering about Apple leaving your back unsupported.  If you don't like the new backs, don't buy them.  Their price tag makes that course of action an easy enough proposition.  

What Phase should do is have Mamiya make a digital RZ along the lines of the AFi/Hy6. Come to think of it, they should use an adapter system like Blad and Sinar, so that you can use the back on whatever camera you want.  That would be an open system.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 25, 2011, 04:52:01 pm
 I'd really like to see some kind of alignment check with adjusts anyhow that would allow users to calibrate both the focus and alignment. I've been dreaming of a back mount system that had movements.

snip


Not to get off topic  ;D, but +1.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: LKaven on January 25, 2011, 05:04:07 pm
I'm always interested in these posts that say /don't question the manufacturer's pricing/.  Usually they go something like "stop complaining--if you can't afford it don't buy it."  Yet customer dissent is one of the factors that moves manufacturers to lower their prices.  Why in god's name would anyone want to squelch that?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 25, 2011, 05:10:43 pm
I'm always interested in these posts that say /don't question the manufacturer's pricing/.  Usually they go something like "stop complaining--if you can't afford it don't buy it."  Yet customer dissent is one of the factors that moves manufacturers to lower their prices.  Why in god's name would anyone want to squelch that?


I feel customer dissent is good, but more important to product development than determining what a manufacturer prices products at - at least at this level of technology, at this volume. For Canon or Sony, who will sell millions of $2,000 full frame DSLR's, they may adjust pricing by $100 to have an edge on a competitor. They may easily recoup that via the volume sales increase. That won't have an impact at the price level of medium format.

I don't think shouting at the manufacturer that their price is too high really has any effect. What really moves manufacturers to lower their price (or go out of business, or create better products) is when customers don't buy in the quantities they anticipate. That definitely gets their attention.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Alan W George on January 25, 2011, 05:20:47 pm
I'm with Mark, the reactions in this thread are ridiculous. Fortunately for PhaseOne most of their professional clients don't spend their time raging on internet forums. Don't get me wrong, I would like more for less as much as the next guy, but jeesh no one is forcing me to buy their products. So what if wealthy amateurs are buying these cameras, it only grows the used market for us poor sods that have to make a living shooting ;) Get a grip people, you are not entitled to this gear, just be happy there are options in the first place and that companies like P1 are working on advancing the MFD segment at all. Don't like it, don't buy it, it's as easy as that. But don't be presumptuous and think that YOUR needs are that of everyone else. For the record, I'm not buying one at launch, but down the line who knows, maybe I'll pick one up used. At least I'll have the option.

Back to work...

Amen!  The armchair bellyaching gets old VERY quickly.  

Anyway, a question ....

So, I could turn in my P65+ and ~$16000 for an IQ180.  I admit to being interested.  I was wondering if anyone would comment on whether that ~$16000 is likely to go up or down as time goes by based on past P1 upgrade pricing histories?  Any input would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 25, 2011, 06:05:53 pm
I second that! my p45+ is awesome and a 1 min exposure time limit is just no good. The new backs, although very attractive, are instantly no good because of this problem!

I would consider the Pentax 645D and his possible future followers if you like the physical specs of the physical IQ but find long exposures important. They are currently using Kodak sensors.

It will be interesting to see if Pentax is able to implement some form of live view in the 645DII and to compare that with Phase implementation.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 25, 2011, 06:34:02 pm
I would consider the Pentax 645D and his possible future followers if you like the physical specs of the physical IQ but find long exposures important. They are currently using Kodak sensors.

It will be interesting to see if Pentax is able to implement some form of live view in the 645DII and to compare that with Phase implementation.

Got any sample images of, say, 6 minute exposures with a 645D? The Hasselblad H3D-31/39 and Phase One P30+/P45+ both used the same Kodak sensors and had drastically different long exposure capabilities. In other words: just because you use a Kodak sensor doesn't mean you get an automatic free pass for long exposures.

I'm serious about my question by the way. I'm curious to see samples like that as I have not seen any so far.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: gazwas on January 25, 2011, 07:36:47 pm
I'm not clever or experienced enough to fully understand  how global markets work (especially at this present time) but wouldn't a lower pricing for these new backs actually open the market up more and ultimately Phase would sell more units?

If you want the best, sure, charge for it. However, the IQ140, and IQ160 are 2 year old tried and tested chips, just wrapped up in that new chassis.

Forget us working photographers, the rich amateur market must be where the cash cow is at the moment and I would imagine the cost of any of these new back must put all but the very wealthy amateurs off.

Heck, I'll be getting one but the costs still leaves me scratching my head as to the projected rate of growth P1 expect from a still very niche product ???
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 25, 2011, 07:51:43 pm
I'm not clever or experienced enough to fully understand  how global markets work (especially at this present time) but wouldn't a lower pricing for these new backs actually open the market up more and ultimately Phase would sell more units?

If you want the best, sure, charge for it. However, the IQ140, and IQ160 are 2 year old tried and tested chips, just wrapped up in that new chassis.

Forget us working photographers, the rich amateur market must be where the cash cow is at the moment and I would imagine the cost of any of these new back must put all but the very wealthy amateurs off.

Heck, I'll be getting one but the costs still leaves me scratching my head as to the projected rate of growth P1 expect from a still very niche product ???


In the calculations I have been involved with working with various products of this type, it has not been shown that a dramatically reduced price will provide the necessary volume boost to produce more revenue (or even the same revenue, for that matter). And there have been some real world attempts I have observed that did not achieve the desired results. If this weren't the case, they would potentially have interest in this strategy.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Mr. Rib on January 25, 2011, 08:59:48 pm
I'm not a tech guy but can someone tell me why the new P1 backs (and backs from other manufacturers) don't have a video output of some sort (like hdmi) for external viewing monitors? Ok,
Live view issue still not fixed (at least not to the level to call it a versatile/ solved problem live view solution), hmm.. It's unfortunate and sad when you think about the direction in which this market is evolving. Absolutely no doubts about that- it's target are wealthy amateurs and for anyone trying to make a buck out of photography, this is bad news. Sure, some pro guys will buy this, probably some will buy it even tough they can't justify the expense.
another thought- new P1 products make me think what would make a digital back a REVOLUTIONARY product. Not just another step forward, but something ground shaking..something REALLY useful.

- change the sensor size to 6x7 so that every MF shooter is happy (6x4.5, 6x7, 6x6)
- focus stacking (another thing which hasn't been announced.. if there's a focus confirmation, why can't there be a focus stacking option?)
- live view, which is obvious
- built in touchscreen which makes it possible to point the area / object which should be in focus (maybe it is impossible to realize it with current camera body- oh wait I forgot there is no real-deal pro camera up to current MFDB specs and demands in Mamiya / P1 lineup)
- aforementioned video port
- LONG exposure capability (huh, it wouldn't even be revolutionary since there is a P45+ back, actually current specs in this department are a step backwards..)
- high ISO capability is even more obvious (to the extent it souldn't even be mentioned here..)

Is all of this really, FOR REAL an impossible list of features to implement?
People can tell me that there are no perfect solutions and it aaall depends on what one needs. Well, yeah, that's because what that messed up MFDB market made us believe and be aware of..It's a neverending mantra of trade-offs, impossible to deal with obstacles, hourses for courses etc etc. I wonder if there are many motion shooters which would have big reasons to moan about Red Epic.. And it's all about listening to your customers, establishing a dialogue and confronting the matters. Sad truth is that pro shooters are not the customers to listen to and MFDB developers real customers can't tell what they need except the fact that the gear they will buy for kazillion $ should 'be the best on the market'.
All of this is frustrating and seriously makes me think about selling all this MF crap and going for a Canikon. It's not about the new iteration, but the development direction which is not likely to change any time soon- I guess there won't be times in foreseeable future when you can shoot your MF gear without thinking about it's limits, drawbacks and all that crap. And yes, I'm tired of being limited and of waiting for a SOLUTION.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Dennis Carbo on January 25, 2011, 09:20:46 pm
I myself doubt these new backs are for "Wealthy amateurs",  why would you think that is the target ? Seems to me there are plenty of Pros that would buy these backs and very,very few amateurs.  No matter what Phase One came out with there would be a thread bitching about it in one way or another, same thing happened when the 80mp Leaf came out - people yellin and screaming ...I dont need 80mp with poor Hi ISO performance !!    Fine ......then dont buy it...problem solved - go buy Canon or Nikon if that fits your bill better. It looks like they have done some great things with these backs....WAYYY out of my price range for now....I can pick one up when they are a few generations old !   Just my .02 cents
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: jduncan on January 25, 2011, 11:29:33 pm
I do agree.  :D

Edmund

Now I get what all the jokes were about: I should stop writing this posts >11pm.
But you get the idea :)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Anders_HK on January 26, 2011, 12:41:17 am
Doug, Steve, or whoever have info;

The user interface looks really great and there is a histogram nearly to size of Leaf backs now  ;D.

However, I am curious of what more exposure information the IQ backs provide. By chance would following be available? ;
1) histogram with gridline for each stop captured (similar to zone system)
2) readout of max and min exposure value captured (in stops), and how this relates to neutral and to the highest and lowest exposure for which the specific back is capable (read at barely textureless white and black)
3) with live view is there any way to expand above and relate to measured values of max and min EV values of the scene, thus to assist in adjusting exposure more precise based on the scene?

Above would be interesting. If not available, could they provide??? Apart from this... should we hope for a Leaf version soon with same type of display to cover the whole available real estate of the back???  :P

Regards
Anders
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 26, 2011, 03:41:51 am
I myself doubt these new backs are for "Wealthy amateurs",  why would you think that is the target ? Seems to me there are plenty of Pros that would buy these backs and very,very few amateurs.  No matter what Phase One came out with there would be a thread bitching about it in one way or another, same thing happened when the 80mp Leaf came out - people yellin and screaming ...I dont need 80mp with poor Hi ISO performance !! 

I guess that some feel that most pros decide on their gear investments by looking rationally at the level of performance provided relative to their actual needs. I guess that only few photographers really need 80 mp for most of what they do, just like few photographers needed 4x5 quality in the past.

Wealthy amateurs on the other hand tend to just buy the best because they want it and can afford it.

I believe that the IQ180 is a very tempting back specwise, it seems that Phaseone did many things right and they are once more confirming the quality of their engineering dpt. Frankly speaking, it is the first time that I feel a back could actually be superior in the field to my trusted D3x. The only big unknown is battery life in cold weather.

I do think however that it is at least twice too expensive for the value it would deliver for my applications. Below 20.000 US$ I would have considered very seriously purchasing one had the cold weather battery life question been answered.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: eronald on January 26, 2011, 07:13:05 am

In the calculations I have been involved with working with various products of this type, it has not been shown that a dramatically reduced price will provide the necessary volume boost to produce more revenue (or even the same revenue, for that matter). And there have been some real world attempts I have observed that did not achieve the desired results. If this weren't the case, they would potentially have interest in this strategy.


Steve Hendrix

I agree with the above - it's an honest statement.

The only real argument Phase has is that it is a "Bentley". I used to ride to school regularly in a friend's Rolls Royce driven by his chauffeur, and I think that the new IQ backs will sell very well to photographers who get their assistant to take the picture.

BTW, nice car. Wood and leather ambience, as much space as anyone can need in the back, and who the hell cares about how it drives, or the front of the car, it definitely was not a self-drive. There was a guy in the front whose job was to make it work.

I was at a Phase dealer in Paris. The Photographer came to try the back. Big flamboyant guy with the leather jacket, open shirt, the stubble, the face well acquainted with the whisky - hold the rocks. Much kidding with the dealer, looking through the viewfinder, in the end, guy turns round and says "What do you think?" And then this sallow-faced insignificance walks up from the shadowy corner and picks up the camera. The Dealer really, really, doesn't like this moment. Says nothing. Big guy then says, well, what do you think? YOU are the ASSISTANT.

Edmund
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Erick Boileau on January 26, 2011, 07:19:35 am
I agree with the above - it's an honest statement.

The only real argument Phase has is that it is a "Bentley". I used to ride to school regularly in a friend's Rolls Royce driven by his chauffeur, and I think that the new IQ backs will sell very well to photographers who get their assistant to take the picture.

BTW, nice car. Wood and leather ambience, as much space as anyone can need in the back, and who the hell cares about how it drives, or the front of the car, it definitely was not a self-drive.

Edmund
;D
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Graham Welland on January 26, 2011, 07:36:49 am
I guess that some feel that most pros decide on their gear investments by looking rationally at the level of performance provided relative to their actual needs. I guess that only few photographers really need 80 mp for most of what they do, just like few photographers needed 4x5 quality in the past.

Wealthy amateurs on the other hand tend to just buy the best because they want it and can afford it.


Exactly. I don't see why this is so hard for some here to understand. Seems like a lot of sour grapes going on - the new backs appear to be a significant step forward and a worthy upgrade if you want these new features. If you don't like the price, don't pay it but there's no point getting all mad about it.

Let's face it, it's very unlikely that the images produced by these new backs will be noticeably different or indeed better than people can produce today with the Pxx+ or Leaf backs. Everything I see is really geared up to making the picture taking process better with improved ergonomics and better review tools.

In my own case I'm strictly an amateur shooting with a P40+ & Aptus 65 but I'll readily admit that I want the new IQ140 to improve my enjoyment of shooting and also to make my preferred technical camera shooting experience better and easier. From a rational point of view, it could be considered madness but what the heck, it's still cheaper than a trophy wife divorce or exotic car hobby (plus I'm only out to impress me, not the neighbors).
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: eronald on January 26, 2011, 07:46:35 am
In my own case I'm strictly an amateur shooting with a P40+ & Aptus 65 but I'll readily admit that I want the new IQ140 to improve my enjoyment of shooting and also to make my preferred technical camera shooting experience better and easier. From a rational point of view, it could be considered madness but what the heck, it's still cheaper than a trophy wife divorce or exotic car hobby (plus I'm only out to impress me, not the neighbors).

Regarding the trophy wife, there is always the rental option :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Graham Welland on January 26, 2011, 08:06:53 am
Regarding the trophy wife, there is always the rental option :)

Edmund

Indeed. Overall, MUCH cheaper actually.  :D
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Barry Goyette on January 26, 2011, 06:09:26 pm
I'm sure this is a wonderful camera.

I have to say though that a 3:2 display on a 4:3 camera seems...well...odd.  Upon watching the Phase's LCD video, I'm also surprised at the placement of the Firewire port, sticking out the back of the camera right under the screen. On the plus side the touch features look nice, especially to someone who after 3 years with an iPhone, automatically swipes and pinches every small lcd I see.

Barry
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: dchew on January 26, 2011, 08:19:44 pm
...automatically swipes and pinches every small lcd I see.

I got the joke about the trophy wife, and the rental option, but the "lcd" reference lost me.  Likable, cute, diva?

Dave
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: LKaven on January 26, 2011, 08:52:38 pm
I got the joke about the trophy wife, and the rental option, but the "lcd" reference lost me.  Likable, cute, diva?

Dave
He's referring to the gestures that you use on the iPhone, iPad, iPod to enlarge, shrink, scroll, etc.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Bernhard on January 26, 2011, 09:05:40 pm
I'm also surprised at the placement of the Firewire port, sticking out the back of the camera right under the screen.


same here with the Firewire, I like the way Hasselblad place the plug on the back

wonder if phase one does this for any special reason, at least they could make an L-shaped firewire cable for my P45+, doug/steve please add to the wishlist ;)

Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 26, 2011, 09:15:27 pm
Something worth noting. It's not in Phase or Capture Integration's best interest to use the term "retina display". It is a filed trademark with Apple.

On June 11, 2010, the US Patent & Trademark Office published Apple's latest trademark application for "Retina" under applications 85056807 and 85056810. Apple has filed their trademark under two distinct International Classes covering such matters as electronic hand-held game units and cell phones. Apple's CEO Steve Jobs stated in their June 7, 2010 press release that "Apple's stunning 3.5 inch Retina display has 960 x 640 pixels—four times as many pixels as the iPhone 3GS and 78 percent of the pixels on an iPad. The resulting 326 pixels per inch is so dense that the human eye is unable to distinguish individual pixels when the phone is held at a normal distance, making text, images and video look sharper, smoother and more realistic than ever before on an electronic display.




Wow, good call John. Huh. I sure hadn't thought about that...

Well, I guess we will have a look into that.    :-[


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: LKaven on January 26, 2011, 09:25:15 pm

I feel customer dissent is good, but more important to product development than determining what a manufacturer prices products at - at least at this level of technology, at this volume. For Canon or Sony, who will sell millions of $2,000 full frame DSLR's, they may adjust pricing by $100 to have an edge on a competitor. They may easily recoup that via the volume sales increase. That won't have an impact at the price level of medium format.

I don't think shouting at the manufacturer that their price is too high really has any effect. What really moves manufacturers to lower their price (or go out of business, or create better products) is when customers don't buy in the quantities they anticipate. That definitely gets their attention.
There is information in all of those activities, and I'd let the manufacturer (with your help) sort that out.  People who might have bought your product, but didn't, express their feelings both in non purchasing and in opinions voiced.  My guess is that you get more information out of the opinions than you do the non-purchases, even if you are more motivated by the non-purchases.  

I suspect there is some volume for you in the next tier or so down.  The $8-10k solution is important to a lot of people.  But I also recognize that competing against the high-end offerings of Nikon and Canon is difficult.  And I also recognize that if either of those companies got into the MFD business, they could wrap it up in that price tier.

Perhaps Phase One would want to offer a $6k 40MP (or next year, 50MP) back at this point?  Seems that by now, they would have rehearsed the basic technology enough to port it downwards.  Could that sensor be any more than $800 in qty by now?  I might be wrong, but wouldn't you stand to sell 5,000 to 10,000 of those?  Wouldn't that expand your user base for future product offerings, drawing people into the system?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: bcooter on January 27, 2011, 12:57:31 am
People who might have bought your product, but didn't, express their feelings both in non purchasing and in opinions voiced.

The fur always flies when something new comes out and there is no way to please everybody.

The deal is finally Phase took their backs one semi-large step forward and I think it's great.

That LCD and the extra ports is enough to semi future proof the investment and if this was 2007 I'd be first in line.

The thing is between now and 2007, Canon came out with the 5d2 and threw a stink bomb in the room.

The 5d2 is like that Rodney Dangerfield guy that shows up at the benefit ball dressed in a Hawaiian shirt with a stripper on each arm.   It may not be a pretty sight, but you just gotta look.

Except this 5d2 party crasher is athletic, smart, incredibly competent and by the end of the night, everyone is standing around asking for an autograph.

I have no idea about the economics of camera making and camera sales, but I am completely blown away by that 5d2.  

I really don't want to like it, I really don't even think it's good for our industry, but you see them everywhere.  On TV sets, movie lots, studios, with led, tungsten, hmi, flash and practical lighting.

Real live money making professionals use them for movie b roll, TV production, ads, web, posters for TV, posters for movies, high end editorial and the list goes on.

They have real up to the second live view, real 22mpx high iso and they costs less than the warranty of a digital back.  

I purposely tried never to use the 5d2 for stills, but the last few weeks gave in and there is nothing I shot that is really lacking, nothing that any client will object to and the camera is so low priced you never worry about it. 

I can't think of a single genre of professional photography that the 5d2 doesn't compete in.  From tilt shift still life, to fast moving fashion and lifestyle.   

Actually the 5d2 isn't bad for our industry if the high end cameras were 7 times better, heck make that 3 times better.

I love photography, love fine instruments to apply my art, but it's 2011 not 2007 and as much as I respect the small camera companies like Phase I guess I'm a little disappointed that after all that work and effort, they just got their premier product almost to the usability of that low priced Canon and even with that their camera of choice isn't even 2007, it's 2004.

At least the chrome Hasselblad is pretty and looks the part of an expensive camera and is the standard of the medium format world.  Can anyone say that about the 645 Mamiya?

Anyway, I guess we're all conditioned.  From the start of digital I paid 10 grand for the first camera, 16 for two 1ds', 22 for a valeo, 7 to upgrade to an aptus, 20 something for the p30+ and then the Leica, a p21+, Nikons, and three more flavors of the 1ds (in duplicate) so if this was 2007, dropping 20 to 40k on a camera back wouldn't be a shock, except for that $2,500 5d2 that's everybody is watching in the center of the dance floor.

Consequently I wrote a Phase One type of check to RED because they had something that no one else offered in the price range.  

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: LKaven on January 27, 2011, 02:48:44 am
[...]
I love photography, love fine instruments to apply my art, but it's 2011 not 2007 and as much as I respect the small camera companies like Phase I guess I'm a little disappointed that after all that work and effort, they just got their premier product almost to the usability of that low priced Canon and even with that their camera of choice isn't even 2007, it's 2004.
[...]
Consequently I wrote a Phase One type of check to RED because they had something that no one else offered in the price range.

I'm definitely not knocking Phase or its people in what I said.  And I'm sure the new backs are top performers.  Somehow though I did expect them to disrupt things at the low end, perhaps partly because they released C1 LE in a form that all can afford and use, and created an appetite for their brand that way. 

BC, it's interesting that you brought up RED.  Because RED seems to me to be tuned into the very idea that technology is disrupted now from the bottom up much of the time.  They are bringing tools to the table, assuming all goes according to plan, that newer and developing creative artists can use to gain a competitive footing in the industry.  In this economy, this is a quality that engenders deep and lasting loyalty among customers. 

The pull from 24x36 will grow stronger.  The D7000 sensor in FX form by itself would put DSLRs at a new performance level, and Canon will match.  And one can anticipate one big step: video capture derived from downsampling full frame captures. 

Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Anders_HK on January 27, 2011, 03:08:22 am
Any reply to following please???

Doug, Steve, or whoever have info;

The user interface looks really great and there is a histogram nearly to size of Leaf backs now  ;D.

However, I am curious of what more exposure information the IQ backs provide. By chance would following be available? ;
1) histogram with gridline for each stop captured (similar to zone system)
2) readout of max and min exposure value captured (in stops), and how this relates to neutral and to the highest and lowest exposure for which the specific back is capable (read at barely textureless white and black)
3) with live view is there any way to expand above and relate to measured values of max and min EV values of the scene, thus to assist in adjusting exposure more precise based on the scene?

Above would be interesting. If not available, could they provide??? Apart from this... should we hope for a Leaf version soon with same type of display to cover the whole available real estate of the back???  :P

Regards
Anders
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BJNY on January 27, 2011, 06:33:50 am
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/leaf___phase_one_interview.shtml
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on January 27, 2011, 07:16:46 pm
Any reply to following please???



Anders -

All good questions. If we can get answers short term, we'll provide them. Otherwise, we'll have at least more information at the first dealer-based launch in the USA for the product on February 8 in Atlanta, GA.

The Live View question may not have an answer until closer to delivery. Leaf's plans for their next generation are unknown at this time.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: eronald on January 27, 2011, 07:28:49 pm
I have no special love for my 5D2. In fact I hate the thing. But it always bounces back into my bag, and surprises me. As an example, I found this neat piece of stop-motion animation software, and guess what? It is every studio shooter's dream of tethering an SLR for box shots. It works with a lot of cameras, but it works real good with the 5D2.

http://www.dragonstopmotion.com/

Edmund

PS. Download the free demo and try it.




The 5d2 is like that Rodney Dangerfield guy that shows up at the benefit ball dressed in a Hawaiian shirt with a stripper on each arm.   It may not be a pretty sight, but you just gotta look.

Except this 5d2 party crasher is athletic, smart, incredibly competent and by the end of the night, everyone is standing around asking for an autograph.

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: JoeKitchen on January 29, 2011, 05:58:04 pm
I have been reading through the posts and I feel there is one thing that everyone has missed; that being is the extra 20 MP worth the extra $8 grand?  

Dont get me wrong, I think the new backs look awesome and, for someone like me who shoots architecture, the live view plus the focus masks and one touch zoom makes my mouth water.  I have not yet upgraded to MFD, but plan on this year (IQ is the least of my reasons just to say) and I like the idea of not needing a sliding back for working outside.  But if I had a MF system already, I probably would be less interested. 

But here is the issue with the IQ180.  All three of these back were developed in conjunction with each other, which means it is highly likely that all three have the same internal components and software (or close to it).  They all process the image in the same fashion, and, since we get less noise with larger pixels, the IQ 160 will be the back to get.  So is the additional 20 MP worth the additional $8 grand since you will be getting a larger amount of noise?  I think it makes no sense unless you deal with moire on a regular basis.  

Please correct me if I am wrong.  
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: dchew on January 30, 2011, 06:43:32 am
I have been reading through the posts and I feel there is one thing that everyone has missed; that being is the extra 20 MP worth the extra $8 grand?  

Dont get me wrong, I think the new backs look awesome and, for someone like me who shoots architecture, the live view plus the focus masks and one touch zoom makes my mouth water.  I have not yet upgraded to MFD, but plan on this year (IQ is the least of my reasons just to say) and I like the idea of not needing a sliding back for working outside.  But if I had a MF system already, I probably would be less interested. 

But here is the issue with the IQ180.  All three of these back were developed in conjunction with each other, which means it is highly likely that all three have the same internal components and software (or close to it).  They all process the image in the same fashion, and, since we get less noise with larger pixels, the IQ 160 will be the back to get.  So is the additional 20 MP worth the additional $8 grand since you will be getting a larger amount of noise?  I think it makes no sense unless you deal with moire on a regular basis.  

Please correct me if I am wrong.  
I think you might be, but it depends...

See Erik's post here (second in the thread):
http://Megapixel Count, Megapixel Density x Camera Size (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=50745.0), and the dxo thread he references.

Seems to me it depends on how you plan to use the sensor.  If you are at base ISO, then there is little or no noise penalty.  If you plan to use the camera at higher ISO or in the dead of night, then the extra 20mp may hurt.  Is it worth the extra 8k? Well, we are all individual points on a demand curve.  You can answer that for you, and I can answer that for me, but I can't answer that for you!

Dave
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: ChristopherBarrett on January 30, 2011, 08:34:46 am
One of the advantages to the 80mp back is if you do find yourself shooting at night and need some extra ISO you can enable Sensor+ mode and still have a 20mp file.  I'd feel a little better about that than the 15mp Sensor+ mode of my P65+.

CB
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: MrSmith on January 30, 2011, 09:14:24 am
i guess most people just reach for their canon/nikon and shoot that instead, after all the AF will work better in the poor light or live view will enable critical focus.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: asf on January 30, 2011, 10:41:55 am
Will be interesting to see, if and when the 3fps live view is implemented, how it works in low light or at night.

Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Guy Mancuso on January 30, 2011, 10:46:54 am
Jack and I did a little home brew video of the interface with Kevin Raber from Phase One the other day as we did our field tests of the new back. Goes into the detail of the interface and how it all will work. It's 10 minutes get some popcorn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GYKfT0jvec
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Erick Boileau on January 30, 2011, 01:09:37 pm
fine ! and in 5 years we shall get decent batteries ...
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: DeeJay on January 30, 2011, 02:31:53 pm
The problem, I find, with the Phamiya system is the Mamiya always seemed to me like a temporary system for them. There was word some time ago about  new cameras being designed.

I don't want to invest in a system like this to find 6 month or a year later that there is a better option.



Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: vgogolak on January 30, 2011, 07:02:00 pm
The pricing policy is very interesting. The way Phase are going to make their money is very similar to the way car manufacturers charge strikingly different amounts for what is essentially the same car, with just a slightly different engine. The prices from the Phase site -

IQ180: $43,990
IQ160: $36,990
IQ140: $21,990

Now then, the IQ140 is exactly the same body, screen, etc etc as the IQ180. You can't tell me or anyone else and keep a straight face that the sensor in the 80 costs $20,000 more than the 40, yet the sensor is the only difference between the two. So if Phase are able to make a profit on the IQ140 (and I don't imagine they are selling it at a loss), then the profit on the 80 is, shall we say, ludicrous?


John


There are many factors in pricing, but Drucker, and "market pricing" have retained a certain logic for many decades. Sales are a deal; your product for my money. Cost based pricing may be good for government work but rarely works in an open market.

Companies sometimes price below market to gain share (but must watch for the dreaded "predatory pricing" accusation) and sometime way over market. If they don't as happened with the HP slate 5oo recently, an efficient market took the goin price from a "list" of 799 to over $1800. on ebay  :-)

Phase has a tonne of $$$ in R&D  (ok, maybe it's danish krona) and has a market position, AND product differentiation. If they didn't price the 80 high enough I will bet the 40 woulod need to be priced HIGHER to cover R&D. It's a massively complex guess (esp ultimate market size, that price determines ofthen.)

I for one worry more about keeping Phase in business, making products I like...and for my CONTAX system to booT. Will I upgrade 'you bet' Am I surprised at the price no. Would I want the 80 lower....not sure. If it risked the viability and continuation of Phase CONTAX mounts.

No quibble with your perspective; I dare say, on the cost front you may be right, but other factors I think dominate the Phase pricing decisions.

best regards
Victor

Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: ChristopherBarrett on January 30, 2011, 07:44:59 pm
I get it, yeah, 40 grand is a big pile of cash.  But this gear is clearly aimed at two markets.  The first and likely largest group is the affluent hobbyist photographer, the second is the high end professional.  If you're in the first group, you could care less about the cost.  If you're in the second group the price shouldn't be a huge deal.  I've owned my P65+ about a year and a half.  In that time it has paid for itself as well as the IQ180 upgrade in capture fees.  It's all just numbers.  If you're business model works with this, then cool.  If not, use something else and move on.

CB
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BlasR on January 30, 2011, 08:29:23 pm
how much is Hasseblad hd -60?  the real price.

I was Phase customer until they start hatting me because of my English I guess, no one answer my question in help me with my problems.  So here come Hasselblad, 99.99% want to help me, small, or big  problem,
right away resolved (priceless).  Now I like what phase doing giving you money for used back..but they have camera like hasselblad?. I am so far behind the I just enjoy what I have.  you got it HD4-60..

I hate I paid $500.00 plus for c1 in now I need to pay more to upgrade.  Phocus is free but they upgrade in the 3 or 4 Q of what year?  A list is free.  Oh well stop complaining enjoy what you have. couples from my hd4-60
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 30, 2011, 10:38:22 pm
how much is Hasseblad hd -60?  the real price.

I was Phase customer until they start hatting me because of my English I guess, no one answer my question in help me with my problems.  So here come Hasselblad, 99.99% want to help me, small, or big  problem,
right away resolved (priceless).  Now I like what phase doing giving you money for used back..but they have camera like hasselblad?. I am so far behind the I just enjoy what I have.  you got it HD4-60..

I hate I paid $500.00 plus for c1 in now I need to pay more to upgrade.  Phocus is free but they upgrade in the 3 or 4 Q of what year?  A list is free.  Oh well stop complaining enjoy what you have. couples from my hd4-60


Phase One relies mostly on its dealers to provide support. So if you had problems and didn't get help please refer to your dealer and not "Phase One" that didn't help. In fact as I recall I pitched in on more than one occasion to point you in the right direction.

Capture One for use with your digital back is 100% free and requires no registration, activation, or license. Only if you want to use it with dSLRs does it ever cost money - and then it does native tethering to nikon/canon, native processing with it's own engine and all adjustments of a wide variety of dSLR and point and shoots.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: bcooter on January 30, 2011, 11:15:05 pm
I get it, yeah, 40 grand is a big pile of cash.  But this gear is clearly aimed at two markets.  The first and likely largest group is the affluent hobbyist photographer, the second is the high end professional.  If you're in the first group, you could care less about the cost.  If you're in the second group the price shouldn't be a huge deal.  I've owned my P65+ about a year and a half.  In that time it has paid for itself as well as the IQ180 upgrade in capture fees.  It's all just numbers.  If you're business model works with this, then cool.  If not, use something else and move on.

CB

Everyone works in a different style and business model.  Our studios line item everything, but in the last few years the only line item that matters is the bottom line, so what we add to a project in terms of equipment is either for personal satisfaction or whatever is specific to the project.

Now I'm not against 80mpx, don't even know what that looks like, but I would be falling in the floor heart pounding astounded if any client in any situation, could tell the difference between 40 and 80 mpx.

Maybe the CIA or the Copy Art crowd could, but even then it would take a magnifying glass on a 100% crop.

I think most of the reason anyone buys the 80mpx back is to say they have the highest resolving back in the world.  Maybe in some instances that works for sales, or on the shelf in the study, but in what I do, they wouldn't ask.

In fact the only camera I think anyone will notice on set, (other than a movie camera) is that chrome, stainless steel hasselblad.  I think it's bloody beautiful and the only issue I have is why didn't hasselblad make them all that way from the start?

Man a case with two of those bodies would be like opening up that glowing briefcase in pulp fiction. 

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BJNY on January 31, 2011, 02:55:32 am

In fact the only camera I think anyone will notice on set, (other than a movie camera) is that chrome, stainless steel hasselblad.  I think it's bloody beautiful and the only issue I have is why didn't hasselblad make them all that way from the start?

Agree 100%
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: John R Smith on January 31, 2011, 04:31:42 am
In fact the only camera I think anyone will notice on set, (other than a movie camera) is that chrome, stainless steel hasselblad.  I think it's bloody beautiful and the only issue I have is why didn't hasselblad make them all that way from the start?

Because if you are working outdoors in bright sunshine the reflections and glare can be quite killing. It's not so bad these days, with auto-everything, but trying to set my old manual silver lenses can be a real pain sometimes in the summer.

John
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Anders_HK on February 01, 2011, 02:48:39 am
no post
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BJNY on February 03, 2011, 05:31:23 pm
Doug,
Has Denmark given you an idea how reliable/robust USB 3.0 will be?
And, how fast compared to FW800? 
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on February 03, 2011, 05:56:29 pm
Isn't that a bit like asking a movie producer how successful a movie will be before it's released?  ;D

Once release we'll test the crap out of it and only then would I feel comfortable answering that question.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: bcooter on February 03, 2011, 06:05:13 pm
Isn't that a bit like asking a movie producer how successful a movie will be before it's released?  ;D



No I think this is like asking a Movie producer a technical questions, like, will the movie be released in 2d or 3d or both.

What Billy asked was the performance of usb 3.0 and I'm sure he asked this because a lot of people wonder if  firewire is going away, or if 3.0 is a better option than firewire.

Maybe the question should be why did Phase implement usb 3.0?

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Jack Varney on February 03, 2011, 09:18:27 pm
"Maybe the question should be why did Phase implement usb 3.0?"

Gosh, you don't supose it might be to make large tethered image transfers faster do you?

USB 3.0 is rated at 4.8Gb/sec. That is ten times the rate of USB 2.0, assuming the spec is realized in practice, and should be a significant advantage.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: photo570 on February 03, 2011, 09:51:14 pm
The rating for USB 3.0 of 4.8Gb/sec is theoretical!!! The protocol is the same, so if you overtax your machine by running a heavy application, like say C1 for example, will it all grind to a screeching halt like it does now with USB 2.0? The link below puts it quite succinctly. I also asked this of a Phase rep today, who was visiting my city, doing the rounds with the IQ180, which is very nice, by the way. He was not really in a position to say, although he acknowledged that it could be an issue under heavy use, but he had not tested it personally, and I should probably just stick with Firewire, kind of if it ain't broke don't fix it type of deal.

Jason.

http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/07/01/firewire-vs-usb/


"Maybe the question should be why did Phase implement usb 3.0?"

Gosh, you don't supose it might be to make large tethered image transfers faster do you?

USB 3.0 is rated at 4.8Gb/sec. That is ten times the rate of USB 2.0, assuming the spec is realized in practice, and should be a significant advantage.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: TMARK on February 03, 2011, 10:06:33 pm
"Maybe the question should be why did Phase implement usb 3.0?"

Gosh, you don't supose it might be to make large tethered image transfers faster do you?

USB 3.0 is rated at 4.8Gb/sec. That is ten times the rate of USB 2.0, assuming the spec is realized in practice, and should be a significant advantage.

I think the nuance in the question is about the future of firewire and USB 3.0, and what led Phase to put 3.0 in the IQ series.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: michael on February 03, 2011, 10:20:47 pm
The take-up on USB 3 seems to be slow, so it's difficult to know which machines will support it and when.

In a way it's inclusion in the IQ backs is a bit of future-proofing, but it's too early to say how it's all going to work out.

As I wrote in my review – I'd be hard pressed at the moment to find a computer to test it with.

We'll just have to see how it all evolves.

Michael
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Steve Hendrix on February 03, 2011, 10:49:20 pm
Considering you can't even test it on a Mac, it's completely theoretical, except for on a PC. There is very little real world data on the actual throughput that I've been able to find. But certainly USB 2 on spec was supposed to be faster than firewire 400, but it was not. I see it as -  if USB 3 somehow overcomes USB 2's real world handicaps, then it looks promising. Worst case, it is at least a hedge against the possible elimination of firewire from the Mac platform, as well as providing another option to tether instead of the poor firewire 800 connection. Just the fact USB 3 is in there makes me feel firewire ports are likely doomed in upcoming Macs.


Steve Hendrix
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: bcooter on February 04, 2011, 12:58:06 am
The take-up on USB 3 seems to be slow, so it's difficult to know which machines will support it and when.

In a way it's inclusion in the IQ backs is a bit of future-proofing, but it's too early to say how it's all going to work out.

As I wrote in my review – I'd be hard pressed at the moment to find a computer to test it with.

We'll just have to see how it all evolves.

Michael


There are a lot of firewire macs out there and even if they went away tomorrow, a quick look around would probably buy you all the used and refurbished firewire computers you could use for a lifetime.

Heck, I even have two old Legacy White 24" I macs that will tether my p30+ with C-1 and the Canons with DPP as well as anything I could ask for.  The newer I macs which still have at least one fw port are even faster still.

In fact I've kept a 17" powerbook for backup with the 400 and 800 fw ports  we use for capture all the time, powering a newer Apple lcd monitor with no issues.

So, I think by the time firewire moves on, (if it does) we'll probably be into a whole different set and type of cameras anyway and that could be a long time from now.

Really the only issue is not the cameras it's the software and the os system that runs it.  If software gets to the point it requires the next os system probably call spotted cat,  or whatever is next on Apple's list of animals, then there may be a problem if it doesn't run on legacy machines.

Phase has been good with making their software backwards compatible with their legacy backs, Canon does the same, so if this policy doesn't change, for tethering we're ok.


IMO

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Gary Ferguson on February 04, 2011, 09:39:06 am
Just got back from looking at the IQ180 at one of the London demos. Now I've got a dillema and I'd appreciate any thoughts or comments,

1. I'd be interested in trading up my P65+ for the IQ180 chiefly because of the better screen and the quasi live view function, and the potential improvement that could make with a technical camera. The standard I'm looking forward is to effectively be able to operate without fresnel screen, magnifying hood, or rapid change slide. In other words using quasi live view for composition, focusing, and camera movement adjustments.

2. There's a useful trade up deal that runs until the end of March offering 65% off. Furthermore Phase are offering a 90% refund on the purchase price if at any time within 18 months of purchase there's a further material upgrade.

3. The demo IQ180 doesn't yet have the live view functionality, and there's no guarantee it'll be available to evaluate before the trade up deals expires at the end of March. Not ideal but Phase have always been honest brokers and I'm sure I could negotiate my way around that one.

4. But the real complexity is that all the well informed opinion I consult says Phase are actively working on a medium format CMOS chip. The key reason is for movie capability (and there are some clues to this direction both in the IQ180 viewing screen ratio and the funcionality of Capture One 6.1), but if they launch a CMOS chip it'll likely have live view, not quasi live view, but live view live view!


I'd be happy to pay for the upgrade and then take the 90% rebate in say 12-18 months and move to the next CMOS version back. But I wouldn't be happy to pay for the upgrade and then find that in 18 months and one day Phase launch the next back!

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Guy Mancuso on February 04, 2011, 09:55:11 am
Well tough one but you buy for today hoping tomorrow it will all work out. No crystal ball but even if they are working on CMOS we may not see it for awhile since the life on the IQ is at least a 2 year cycle one would assume. I tested the IQ 180 along with others and in all honesty I see Live view as a nice additional feature not a primary function of the back. With the 100-400 zoom and double tap features plus with the addition of focus mask this alone is a pretty powerful tool. In all honesty if Live view had any edge over the other features and that would be framing. Other than framing the other tools will get the job done very well but you may have to think more polaroid style. Take a shot and adjust, which we all do anyway to a certain degree especially folks shooting tech cams. But even with the Live view coming if you can at least frame with it than I think many would be happy. Now I should add personally I think Live view is nice but I never used it when I shot a Nikon with it. Really depends on need here but I will say the other features on the IQ make life a whole lot better with viewing and confirming what you are doing. That got me very excited about the product when testing it and maybe the best thing we have seen to date. Everything was fast and very precise on the LCD, histo and highlight tools. Even when testing it a lot of functions where not ready to try and i still liked it as is. Looking forward to testing it again with final production unit but I am certainly putting a order in for it. I really liked the tech part as I feel it can really help you as a shooter make better judgements on what you are getting and it also to me will free your brain to let you work on what is in front of you than playing a guessing game with the gear. It will come down to what you find most important in the style you shoot.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: issa on February 04, 2011, 10:33:21 am
I am in the same dilema, I am 5x4 user and love the view camera. Have been waiting until a digital back appears with some kind of live view, to help with focus and framing. If phase One do pull this ouit with 2/3 frames per secons Quai live View, I think it good enough to frame and compose. Naturally if it had 100 live view is abonus, but not at the expense of quality.

I think over the next few years we will see view camera users opring for these backs, providing some can afford the, and which i am sure will become more affordbale over time.

Once my supply of frozen Quickloads is exhaused will review the situation and most likely take the plunge for Db but not IQ180.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Gary Ferguson on February 04, 2011, 10:45:29 am
Guy, thanks for your comments. I've posted before on digital backs and technical cameras, but essentially I believe (after several years of various Phase One backs on a Linhof M679cs) that it's an uncomfortable and compromised arrangement at best. However live view could make a major improvement. The questions though remain,

1. How "live" is the IQ180's live view?
2. Will it be decisively trumped by their next CMOS based chip?
3. Will that happen within their 18 month "future proofing" 90% discount deal?

The more I chew this one over the more it feels like if live view is what I really want, then I may be better waiting for a CMOS solution.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: willconnor on February 04, 2011, 10:49:24 am
Live view would be great on a tech camera, but from what I can glean, it might be unrealistic to expect the IQ live view to be of much use   for framing.

I'm looking forward to the great screen, zoom, focus mask on the IQ for post capture evaluation, but for framing I'll continue to switch out between the gg and back.  For my method of shooting, which is very deliberate, slowly circling my "prey" until I see a refined, ideal composition through the optics, this works.  What I miss in speed and spontaneity, I hope I sometimes gain in one good image. 
 
I'll also, as I'm walking around, mark spots with sticks or tape and then come back and shoot from those spots.

While taking the back on and off can be a hassle, particularly in bad weather, it's the only way I see working with a tech camera-- for me.

I use two really nice gg's made by Bill Maxwell--one for wides and one for longer lenses.  And a Hass. rmfx removable viewfinder. 

Until live view develops to give me the same quality view...
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Guy Mancuso on February 04, 2011, 11:16:12 am
Yea the live view one is really up in the air. Phase did not talk much about it and my feeling is it is ready to go just don't want the competition to see it 3 months out ( my speculation). If i had a question mark on the IQ this would be it on how good it really is going to be. Than on the other hand after playing with the IQ on how well they did with the UI and LCD than you wonder if we should question it since everything else is really brilliant design. We did not see focus mask but my feeling is if it is just like C1 than it's all good in my view. I agree though folks that are really after Live View right now it is a leap of faith. But after talks with Phase I can say this . They are on the move with product and technology. I just have a feeling they will pull this off since they did so well and better than i thought the new LCD and UI would be. As others i am hoping they can talk more about this soon as really not much has been said yet except they will have it in final production. Trust me i know we all have a lot of money riding on our purchases so we do not take this stuff lightly. I personally feel good about it though if that means anything. I honestly fell in love with the IQ and I really try to watch my excitement on this stuff because i certainly never want to mislead anyone ever on these high dollar items for sure. My opinion if Live view is a primary criteria for you than maybe wait it out some until more data comes out or some of the reviewers get this in our hands again before final release. Also you may want to chat with your dealers as they may have there pulse on this better than any of us too. I think it always comes back to doing your homework get as much data as you can and make good buy decisions that you are comfortable under your own skin.

As I see it the IQ is just killer for tech cams as we never have any confirmation on anything when shooting until you really hit C1. This changes the game IMHO. Sure you will have workarounds and it still may not be as fast as you want but you can break down walk away and feel a whole lot better you nailed it or at least confirmed your focus if not anything else. LOL
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: MrSmith on February 04, 2011, 12:47:27 pm
so where next with the megapixel race?
22-30-39-50-60-80 so who's holding out for a 100-120mp back?
i can't wait.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Guy Mancuso on February 04, 2011, 12:57:05 pm
I'm not waiting for anything like that. I'm pretty happy with 40 mpx but looking at these 80 mpx files just gives me a rush that is hard to describe. So much damn detail

Look at this one. Phase 150mm D lens 2.8 WIDE OPEN

The crop is  1200 pixel wide. remember this is wide open at 2.8. We have a whole bunch of images posted and honestly the detail out of this 80 back is simply mind blowing. Never seen anything like it . Need it or not it's out there for the taking.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Gary Ferguson on February 04, 2011, 01:16:51 pm
Is that a touch of moire on the wire fence to the right of the outboards?
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: marcmccalmont on February 04, 2011, 01:21:37 pm
Guy
please post more comments on color, DR, IQ etc I'll be moving from a P45+ and would like to know what to expect
Thanks
Marc
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Guy Mancuso on February 04, 2011, 01:25:08 pm
It looks like it is. Or a anomaly that Phase will look at . They have all the raw files to take back to Denmark and analyze any adjustments they need to make. One thing was clear images area little red on the prototype which is pretty normal for a unit 3 months out from final. The P65 was worse when we did a pre production unit, so I would not look to far into the images yet until we start seeing production units. Now no question we will still see moire but given a 5.2 micron sensor it should be less than even the P40 and P65 at 6 micron. I know i get it sometimes on my P40+. I know folks look at it as bad and yes it can be but it also says something else as sort of credit to the sensor, lens and total combined imaging system. Jack got it also on another image as some guys pants at 100 yards away showed moire. Pretty amazing actually
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Guy Mancuso on February 04, 2011, 01:34:45 pm
Guy
please post more comments on color, DR, IQ etc I'll be moving from a P45+ and would like to know what to expect
Thanks
Marc

Right now color looks okay but until we get final firmware really hard to judge but it is fairly clean except for a base red in the files but they WB right out. Now on DR we did have dinner with Mark Dobovoy the day he shot his tests Thursday night last week and he mentioned to keep a eye on the DR which he felt did increase. We pretty much came to the same conclusions as well but without serious testing from any of us  we felt at least 1/3 of a stop maybe more. Obviously we all have to be careful since we all shot a prototype and nothing is set in stone yet and Phase is still tweaking the system but in general the IQ was right there in very good shape given its state of development. I feel very confident it will be at production levels like the P65+ for sure with maybe some extra DR coming. It is the new sensor and we will have to see how it shakes out.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Guy Mancuso on February 04, 2011, 03:05:22 pm
We are saying a conservative 1/3 but my feeling more like a 1/2. It's rated at 12.5 stops. Won't have final answer to that until final production. Not sure more DR is even possible at this level which is damn high right out of the gate.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: bcooter on February 04, 2011, 03:13:16 pm
If a fancy SUV got 12 miles per gallon and a few years later the new model got 12.3 miles per gallon, would anyone really care? Would it be deemed anything worth noting?

That's what the Dynamic Range measurement comments feel like.


Regardless of what anyone "advertises", the real benefit of this back is a usable lcd.

If the previous poster is correct, then this is just the first stage prior to going to cmos, which I'm sure will change the whole thought process  of real live view and maybe add video capabilities and higher iso.

That changes medium format, but 1/3 of a stop or 1/2 of a stop?   That's why we use crafted fill light in professional settings.

I never understand some of the excited buzz that comes out every time more megapixels are announced.  It's always that's incredible "we can see moire at 100 yards" or something like that, but rarely if ever does any of the images show a beautiful photograph and what the back can do to add to that process.   They are normally noon lit snapshots with 100% crops.   

I don't know how that moves anyone to purchase.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: cyberean on February 04, 2011, 03:23:49 pm
That changes medium format, but 1/3 of a stop or 1/2 of a stop?   That's why we use crafted fill light in professional settings.

I never understand some of the excited buzz that comes out every time more megapixels are announced.  It's always that's incredible "we can see moire at 100 yards" or something like that, but rarely if ever does any of the images show a beautiful photograph and what the back can do to add to that process.   They are normally noon lit snapshots with 100% crops.   

I don't know how that moves anyone to purchase.


IMO

BC

who ever said any of the rah-rah
was about photography?
...  ;)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Guy Mancuso on February 04, 2011, 04:14:25 pm
Regardless of what anyone "advertises", the real benefit of this back is a usable lcd.

If the previous poster is correct, then this is just the first stage prior to going to cmos, which I'm sure will change the whole thought process  of real live view and maybe add video capabilities and higher iso.

That changes medium format, but 1/3 of a stop or 1/2 of a stop?   That's why we use crafted fill light in professional settings.

I never understand some of the excited buzz that comes out every time more megapixels are announced.  It's always that's incredible "we can see moire at 100 yards" or something like that, but rarely if ever does any of the images show a beautiful photograph and what the back can do to add to that process.   They are normally noon lit snapshots with 100% crops.   

I don't know how that moves anyone to purchase.

IMO

BC

Love it , yeah I based my whole career on noon snapshots. This is about testing image quality and seeing what data comes off the sensor nothing about art. That part is up to whoever wants to buy any camera.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: marcmccalmont on February 04, 2011, 05:57:16 pm
in the past as photosites got smaller there were cases that the IQ got worse not better, ie canon g10/11 so the DR/noise questions are valid, that with a decrease in photosite size has there been a decrease in IQ? from most observations so far the IQ180 does not suffer from this
Marc
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: bcooter on February 05, 2011, 12:15:59 pm
Quote
Love it , yeah I based my whole career on noon snapshots. This is about testing image quality and seeing what data comes off the sensor nothing about art. That part is up to whoever wants to buy any camera.


Don't get upset.  This isn't about your career or what your capable of, it's just about what you chose to present.

If I was going to become a "camera reviewer/consultant," I'd take a cue from Michael, because there is a reason he is well respected in his opinions . . . he nearly always tests within the genre which he works.

It's not my genre, but since it's within his experience zone, he has a comparison of one camera to the next that has validity.  Sure everyone has their bias, it's just human nature, though giving Michael's review a casual read,  I get the feeling that he is selling me less and informing me more.

He also puts out some nice photos, once again in the genre of his expertise.  

The video stuff that came out on this camera back, well it's like all you tube product intro videos, somewhat informative about the buttons and the screen, medium to low level production values,  but not really journalism, though I don't think  journalism is the goal.

The one question I would have liked asked by anyone is why the shape of the lcd in a 16x9 format?   I'm not the only one that noticed that screen format which leads me to believe that since Phase tends to use the same back architecture for a decade, is this the start of what's to come and if so . . . how soon?

So looking at the rear lcd my first question would be when is cmos coming with high def video?  I don't think it is probably a topic anyone selling a new $40,000 camera wants to approach today, but it sure seems possible that something else is coming down the line.

But back to the noon lit snapshots.  Nothing wrong with that if that's what you want to present and it's a style in which you work.  Alex Soth has shot a lot of noon lit photos for the look and I assume the effect and done quite well.   The difference is he shot his images for the photography, not for the camera.

IMO

BC




Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Guy Mancuso on February 05, 2011, 04:09:18 pm
Obviously you have not seen what we done or care too but certainly enjoy riding my ass.  Not my issue and I do NOT write articles . We show images and talk about the images and what is going on with the images which i feel end of day what it is all about. Just a different way to approach things. Your opinions are extremely biased towards the negative of Phase which has been so obvious for a long time even though you shoot there products. I question who you are really upset with the company and its people or the actual products ( i already know this answer)not to mention a thread you started about being a nicer person or something awhile back, maybe time to reread your thoughts there. That's your issue and frankly me being upset is meaningless but your insults do travel to people that actually care about what is presented to them and end of day it IS about data sharing NOT sales. As far as what to show it is simply a matter of timing with some of these products in this case we had 10 am to about 3 pm of shooting time and not in my town either so obviously not a choice in the matter and like anyone else we would love more time with them to do things in our actual work style, not the case here. James a real reminder here this is about the camera and NOT about the art. Its a product that is being reviewed not photography. What we do with the gear after we have it than it turns to photography but right now it is sensor, metal , glass  and technology that is on trial. Nothing else so maybe we see this differently I don't know but to me this has nothing to do with with the art at this stage.  You want to talk about this more than lets do it privately.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: eronald on February 05, 2011, 06:57:30 pm
Regardless of what anyone "advertises", the real benefit of this back is a usable lcd.

If the previous poster is correct, then this is just the first stage prior to going to cmos, which I'm sure will change the whole thought process  of real live view and maybe add video capabilities and higher iso.

That changes medium format, but 1/3 of a stop or 1/2 of a stop?   That's why we use crafted fill light in professional settings.

I never understand some of the excited buzz that comes out every time more megapixels are announced.  It's always that's incredible "we can see moire at 100 yards" or something like that, but rarely if ever does any of the images show a beautiful photograph and what the back can do to add to that process.   They are normally noon lit snapshots with 100% crops.   

I don't know how that moves anyone to purchase.

IMO

BC

Any SLR now on the market, with a *real* lens (not kit) and studio flash can get any reasonable job done.

So, Phase and Hassy can say the do things well, but no one can claim that they *have* to buy their stuff.

Now, if you talk video, RED may have an argument of being the only game in town.

Edmund

Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Jack Flesher on February 05, 2011, 07:47:06 pm


The one question I would have liked asked by anyone is why the shape of the lcd in a 16x9 format?  

We answered that one James, you must have missed it  --- it's so you can have the full 4:3 aspect image onscreen PLUS a hitso and highlight warning display. 

Cheers,
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: marcmccalmont on February 05, 2011, 08:06:40 pm
my guess is it was one of the few hi res touch screens available OEM
you can only design with available parts
Marc
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: bcooter on February 06, 2011, 12:22:32 pm
Guy,

Believe it or not I'm on your side.


My point isn't about Phase. 

I'd have the same view if it was Canon, Nikon or Pepsi.

If your an advertising photographer, journalist, offer consulting services, bandwidth, have an audience, have a following, my advice is don't give it up for free or don't do it under restraints that won't allow you to showcase how well you can shoot something.

Once again, this isn't about Phase, they're just the example that is out there at the moment, because they have a new product. 

Next month it will probably be a Canon 5d3 or whatever and 4,000 websites and blogs will start giving reviews where their remuneration is close to zero and the photos they produce with the prototype are 3 hour snapshot sessions that don't positively move their standing as an artist or business person.

I don't dislike that you dig equipment, I think that's fine.  I don't dislike what you produced,  because art, even technical art can be very subjective.   My question is are you happy with what you produced?

Was it good for you today, will it be good for you in the future?

You know . . . I understand some of the dealers and reps that go on forums to inform and sometimes it's appreciated.

Let's just not forget  that they also go on forums  to sell.  Social media in any form is virtually free advertising and since most of the dealers and reps are in it for profit . . . why not take advantage of the bandwidth?

The only issue I have is the word free and advertising in the same sentence.

That's really the point I was trying to make.


Advertising;

Advertising is a form of communication intended to persuade an audience (viewers, readers or listeners) to purchase or take some action upon products, ideas, or services. It includes the name of a product or service and how that product or service could benefit the consumer, to persuade a target market to purchase or to consume that particular brand. These messages are usually paid for by sponsors and viewed via various media.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Guy Mancuso on February 06, 2011, 12:41:31 pm
As we talked late yesterday by phone, I understand the free advertising part much too much and yes understand your other points as well. And no the shots are what they are and not what I like maybe better said it would never make it to my book, but they do illustrate a few things we where after DR, Noise, Detail and Tonal range. I agree I want much more time with these things to really show what I REALLY shoot with these systems. 8 hours is not enough for any reviewer but given only 2 in the country I do understand the time limits. When final units come out I want a couple days or I will just simply not do it.  Too bad I did not have it right now as we head out for a workshop Tuesday morning which would give everyone a chance at shooting with it in some nice light and scenes. Believe me we take mid day breaks and NOT shoot. LOL
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Guy Mancuso on February 06, 2011, 12:47:04 pm
I should add I did get a chance to Print this morning . Something funky happened to my yellow cartridge on my Epson 7900 so just got a new one in last night made 3 23/30 inch prints and have to say my printer is too small for this monster. Honestly I never seen prints with this much detail before and they can go a whole lot bigger. This thing should come bundled with a Epson 9900 as someone suggested. Me i am still sticking with the 40 mpx chip for now and just get a IQ 140 for the tech but those going big this is pretty amazing. This new sesnor does have something about it I like, just have to see how the final version is.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: bcooter on February 06, 2011, 01:55:17 pm

I came to the provisional conclusion that it really serves the brands whatever they are, serves very little the consummer, and is counter-producer for the photographers involved in most of the cases.

Honestly, I reach a point where I'd like to see less camera testings and maybe more lightning testings for example.


There is a very strange happening in the world of advertising and marketing.  

A company talks and everybody listens and many toe the corporate line just to get close to the company.  

Historically  the only companies that could leverage their brand to lower cost services were the brands that produced innovative or even shocking creative, because associating yourself with higher level creative could move your career forward.

Now, the innovative creative part is gone and in relationship to electronics (cameras included) all anyone talks about is the features, the buttons, the lcd, the pixels . . . . the something, with little reference as to what these machines are used for.

In the world of cameras there is more talk about tech, less talk about the art, the final product, the net reward both artistically and monetarily.

I don't think they are the holy grail but I like Hasselblad's marketing with Victor and the way they present the images that go on their site.  It seems they keep their brand one notch above everyone in the presentation level and that's something I understand.  It also seems they place the photograph (photographer) on an equal level to the camera.  That is something I appreciate.

But in regards to toeing the company line.   The UK version of the TV show Top Gear is unmerciful in the way they review automobiles.  They bash em, slide em, criticize them, adore them, but you always have the feeling it comes from honest opinion.

If you've seen one of their reviews you think why would a company present their product for such scrutiny and potential scorn?  Well, I guess because Top Gear is the number rated TV show in the world with 350,000,000 viewers and these viewers are watching the show with real paying advertising on a real profit making network.

There is something to be said for unabashed honesty presented in a high production setting.   Even if it is only a few people's opinion.


IMO.

BC

Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: yaya on February 06, 2011, 02:08:27 pm
And in the UK, being a BBC programme it obviously comes ad free when running live on BBC2 :-)

(Episode 3, series 16 starts in 52 minutes BTW...)

Oh and Fred how about taking the initiative and starting a new topic called Lighting Technique, Testing and Reviews???
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: eronald on February 06, 2011, 02:34:31 pm
Sorry James,

 I think there is little innovation on show here because this market hates innovation.

 The fashion companies used to make product, then lens it locally and advertise locally. Now we have a handful of "luxury" conglomerates (LVMH, Chanel) who own ALL the big brands, shoot once and then run identical saturation campaigns in every single market in every single magazine on the inside cover and back cover.

 When you run ONE huge international campaign, you are essentially betting your company on it; there is little margin for this elusive "creativity" factor, and to the contrary the client wants reassurance, control, and a guarantee that the images can be reused in every context.

 I know this is familiar to you, others here may not have realized yet that the "Luxury" brands have declared war on the "Fashion" industry, and one of their tools is relentlessly crowding out the independents via expensive real estate for showrooms, and another is inexorably raising the production values for advertising.

 And to confirm my off-the-top opinions, open any glossy mag, and compare the editorial work, and the expensive advertising pages ...

Edmund

There is a very strange happening in the world of advertising and marketing.  

A company talks and everybody listens and many toe the corporate line just to get close to the company.  

Historically  the only companies that could leverage their brand to lower cost services were the brands that produced innovative or even shocking creative, because associating yourself with higher level creative could move your career forward.

Now, the innovative creative part is gone and in relationship to electronics (cameras included) all anyone talks about is the features, the buttons, the lcd, the pixels . . . . the something, with little reference as to what these machines are used for.

In the world of cameras there is more talk about tech, less talk about the art, the final product, the net reward both artistically and monetarily.

I don't think they are the holy grail but I like Hasselblad's marketing with Victor and the way they present the images that go on their site.  It seems they keep their brand one notch above everyone in the presentation level and that's something I understand.  It also seems they place the photograph (photographer) on an equal level to the camera.  That is something I appreciate.

But in regards to toeing the company line.   The UK version of the TV show Top Gear is unmerciful in the way they review automobiles.  They bash em, slide em, criticize them, adore them, but you always have the feeling it comes from honest opinion.

If you've seen one of their reviews you think why would a company present their product for such scrutiny and potential scorn?  Well, I guess because Top Gear is the number rated TV show in the world with 350,000,000 viewers and these viewers are watching the show with real paying advertising on a real profit making network.

There is something to be said for unabashed honesty presented in a high production setting.   Even if it is only a few people's opinion.


IMO.

BC


Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: fredjeang on February 06, 2011, 02:43:44 pm
Oh and Fred how about taking the initiative and starting a new topic called Lighting Technique, Testing and Reviews???
Well, actually I was thinking about opening a thread on that topic that everybody could add their stuff, a little bit like "recent pro works".
That is indeed a good idea.
Those last weeks I've been working a lot with Kinos and I'm starting to get a few configurations that I like.
Anyway, if I do such a thread that would be exclusively with hot lights because I only use (and used) continuous lightning.
Reviews would be out of question as the devices I use are old, nothing of the newest products.
Who knows...
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Gary Ferguson on February 08, 2011, 04:11:53 am
We answered that one James, you must have missed it  --- it's so you can have the full 4:3 aspect image onscreen PLUS a hitso and highlight warning display. 

Cheers,

Jack, in the UK pretty much everyone I talk to (including Phase distributors) says the aspect ratio is just one necessary step towards a CMOS chip delivering moving images. I wonder if Phase have been open in their development intentions, but there's an NDA in place which is being respected in the US yet in the UK the general view is the cat's out of the bag so what the heck!
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: bcooter on February 08, 2011, 11:13:33 am
Jack, in the UK pretty much everyone I talk to (including Phase distributors) says the aspect ratio is just one necessary step towards a CMOS chip delivering moving images. I wonder if Phase have been open in their development intentions, but there's an NDA in place which is being respected in the US yet in the UK the general view is the cat's out of the bag so what the heck!


If Phase doesn't go with cmos and some video option then I'd be much more than surprised, though if I really wanted to find out I'm sure three dealer phone calls in europe would confirm it.

Regardless for Phase to go forward, (and right now they're kind of on a forward roll), they're going to have to go cmos and video and sorry, but I don't buy the 16x9 lcd thing as a way to show a histogram.

Let's face it, Phase is getting pressure from the low end from Pentax and probably soon Canon, the high end from Hasselblad with a more mature camera system, so to step away from the crowd it's gotta be cmos, higher real iso without downsizing and video.

It just makes sense, especially when they talk about a new camera, because nobody that's not smokin' weed would build an expensive still capture only camera in today's market.

Those guys and girls in Denmark are smart and they have calculator widgets just like the rest of us, so I'm sure they totaled up the RED sales numbers and saw that there was a billion bucks out there in sales waiting for someone to step up.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BJNY on February 08, 2011, 12:25:09 pm
Medium format video, really?....as challenging as it is to nail focus with full frame Canon 5d2.

Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BJNY on February 08, 2011, 12:30:55 pm
I posted these links at thread in Motion section

http://vimeo.com/josephhutson/m8unboxing

http://vimeo.com/19626214

Amazed at RED's design, attention to detail (what users want), and ability to manufacture [in the USA].
Obviously, build-quality, too, to withstand rigors of moviemaking.

Wonder how they compare size-wise and sales-wise to Phase One as a company.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Alan W George on February 08, 2011, 12:44:37 pm
Medium format video, really?....as challenging as it is to nail focus with full frame Canon 5d2.

I agree.  80 Megapixel chip to capture video.  That's like chasing a mosquito with a bazooka.  Even RED is only 14 Megapixel.  Perhaps the highest level still image capture device will offer some sort of video at some point, but I seriously doubt it is a major factor driving design choices at this point.  Just my opinion of course, but I gotta feeling I know smokin' something....:)
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: BJNY on February 08, 2011, 01:01:53 pm
Let's say Sensor+ brings it down to 15 or 20mpx,
but nailing focus is hard enough on 24mmx36mm Canon 5d2,
let alone 42mmx56mm size sensor.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: bcooter on February 08, 2011, 01:11:31 pm
Let's say Sensor+ brings it down to 15 or 20mpx,
but nailing focus is hard enough on 24mmx36mm Canon 5d2,
let alone 42mmx56mm size sensor.


I'm not an engineer, but it doesn't take a lot of foresight to figure Phase could use that pixel binning thing to drop it down to a 4 or 5 k video file.

Canon uses some kind of line skipping to get to 2k, because a 5d2 ain't shooting a 22mpx video file.

Now the next thing is how to process this stuff, cause we've been lightly color adjusting  dailies for 10 days and it ain't easy or fast.

As far as RED's attention to detail, some things they're amazing at, i.e. camera build, packaging, forethought in use, somethings are just goofy lame, like half their instruction pdfs on how to install the red rocket are corrupted.

Sometimes with RED your flying blind, other times your just amazed at what they've done.

In regards to focus, focus ain't easy on anything moving, though when it's moving it's much more forgiving.

The Canons are hard to focus cause the lcd is tiny in comparison to the RED and a lot of people are using Canon's still servo lenses which don't stop at infinity and feel kind of funky when your shooting motion.

I can promise you, if my contax had a big ol' lcd those lenses would be a lot easy to focus than anything Canon makes for stills.

Everybody says bling doesn't matter, but the RED packaging is killa.   When you drop that kind of cash, it's cool to get a package that looks like it's worth the skins. 

I just got a RED Rocket in last week and the package is a work of art.

As far as how much RED makes, it's anybody's guess, though the word is they've sold at least 10,000 RED ONE's.  Run the numbers and that's between half a billion to a billion bucks in sales and they ain't sharing it with any dealers, at least not yet.

With the Epic I'm positive they'll sell a lot more.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: fredjeang on February 08, 2011, 03:50:51 pm
Not a long time ago, I honestly thought that Red did a mistake pushing the Epic release date, but it works, it bloody works.

I understand that a kind of conservatism is "needed?" for MF manufacturers, but instead of pixel steroids, it would be nice if they could put their team at work and come with really groundbreaking ideas.

This is not just a war about the sacro saint IQ but the nature of the mediums themselves is changing.
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: DeeJay on February 11, 2011, 04:12:43 pm
Apologies if this has already been posted. I was gobsmacked by this IQ180 sample.

http://www.phaseone.com/en/Downloads/Sample-images.aspx
Title: Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
Post by: Doug Peterson on February 11, 2011, 04:58:51 pm
The raw is even more impressive:

http://www.captureintegration.com/2011/02/04/phase-one-iq180-sample-raws/

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")