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Author Topic: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0  (Read 101739 times)

dchew

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #160 on: January 26, 2011, 08:19:44 pm »

...automatically swipes and pinches every small lcd I see.

I got the joke about the trophy wife, and the rental option, but the "lcd" reference lost me.  Likable, cute, diva?

Dave
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LKaven

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #161 on: January 26, 2011, 08:52:38 pm »

I got the joke about the trophy wife, and the rental option, but the "lcd" reference lost me.  Likable, cute, diva?

Dave
He's referring to the gestures that you use on the iPhone, iPad, iPod to enlarge, shrink, scroll, etc.

Bernhard

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #162 on: January 26, 2011, 09:05:40 pm »

I'm also surprised at the placement of the Firewire port, sticking out the back of the camera right under the screen.


same here with the Firewire, I like the way Hasselblad place the plug on the back

wonder if phase one does this for any special reason, at least they could make an L-shaped firewire cable for my P45+, doug/steve please add to the wishlist ;)

Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #163 on: January 26, 2011, 09:15:27 pm »

Something worth noting. It's not in Phase or Capture Integration's best interest to use the term "retina display". It is a filed trademark with Apple.

On June 11, 2010, the US Patent & Trademark Office published Apple's latest trademark application for "Retina" under applications 85056807 and 85056810. Apple has filed their trademark under two distinct International Classes covering such matters as electronic hand-held game units and cell phones. Apple's CEO Steve Jobs stated in their June 7, 2010 press release that "Apple's stunning 3.5 inch Retina display has 960 x 640 pixels—four times as many pixels as the iPhone 3GS and 78 percent of the pixels on an iPad. The resulting 326 pixels per inch is so dense that the human eye is unable to distinguish individual pixels when the phone is held at a normal distance, making text, images and video look sharper, smoother and more realistic than ever before on an electronic display.




Wow, good call John. Huh. I sure hadn't thought about that...

Well, I guess we will have a look into that.    :-[


Steve Hendrix
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LKaven

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #164 on: January 26, 2011, 09:25:15 pm »


I feel customer dissent is good, but more important to product development than determining what a manufacturer prices products at - at least at this level of technology, at this volume. For Canon or Sony, who will sell millions of $2,000 full frame DSLR's, they may adjust pricing by $100 to have an edge on a competitor. They may easily recoup that via the volume sales increase. That won't have an impact at the price level of medium format.

I don't think shouting at the manufacturer that their price is too high really has any effect. What really moves manufacturers to lower their price (or go out of business, or create better products) is when customers don't buy in the quantities they anticipate. That definitely gets their attention.
There is information in all of those activities, and I'd let the manufacturer (with your help) sort that out.  People who might have bought your product, but didn't, express their feelings both in non purchasing and in opinions voiced.  My guess is that you get more information out of the opinions than you do the non-purchases, even if you are more motivated by the non-purchases.  

I suspect there is some volume for you in the next tier or so down.  The $8-10k solution is important to a lot of people.  But I also recognize that competing against the high-end offerings of Nikon and Canon is difficult.  And I also recognize that if either of those companies got into the MFD business, they could wrap it up in that price tier.

Perhaps Phase One would want to offer a $6k 40MP (or next year, 50MP) back at this point?  Seems that by now, they would have rehearsed the basic technology enough to port it downwards.  Could that sensor be any more than $800 in qty by now?  I might be wrong, but wouldn't you stand to sell 5,000 to 10,000 of those?  Wouldn't that expand your user base for future product offerings, drawing people into the system?

bcooter

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #165 on: January 27, 2011, 12:57:31 am »

People who might have bought your product, but didn't, express their feelings both in non purchasing and in opinions voiced.

The fur always flies when something new comes out and there is no way to please everybody.

The deal is finally Phase took their backs one semi-large step forward and I think it's great.

That LCD and the extra ports is enough to semi future proof the investment and if this was 2007 I'd be first in line.

The thing is between now and 2007, Canon came out with the 5d2 and threw a stink bomb in the room.

The 5d2 is like that Rodney Dangerfield guy that shows up at the benefit ball dressed in a Hawaiian shirt with a stripper on each arm.   It may not be a pretty sight, but you just gotta look.

Except this 5d2 party crasher is athletic, smart, incredibly competent and by the end of the night, everyone is standing around asking for an autograph.

I have no idea about the economics of camera making and camera sales, but I am completely blown away by that 5d2.  

I really don't want to like it, I really don't even think it's good for our industry, but you see them everywhere.  On TV sets, movie lots, studios, with led, tungsten, hmi, flash and practical lighting.

Real live money making professionals use them for movie b roll, TV production, ads, web, posters for TV, posters for movies, high end editorial and the list goes on.

They have real up to the second live view, real 22mpx high iso and they costs less than the warranty of a digital back.  

I purposely tried never to use the 5d2 for stills, but the last few weeks gave in and there is nothing I shot that is really lacking, nothing that any client will object to and the camera is so low priced you never worry about it. 

I can't think of a single genre of professional photography that the 5d2 doesn't compete in.  From tilt shift still life, to fast moving fashion and lifestyle.   

Actually the 5d2 isn't bad for our industry if the high end cameras were 7 times better, heck make that 3 times better.

I love photography, love fine instruments to apply my art, but it's 2011 not 2007 and as much as I respect the small camera companies like Phase I guess I'm a little disappointed that after all that work and effort, they just got their premier product almost to the usability of that low priced Canon and even with that their camera of choice isn't even 2007, it's 2004.

At least the chrome Hasselblad is pretty and looks the part of an expensive camera and is the standard of the medium format world.  Can anyone say that about the 645 Mamiya?

Anyway, I guess we're all conditioned.  From the start of digital I paid 10 grand for the first camera, 16 for two 1ds', 22 for a valeo, 7 to upgrade to an aptus, 20 something for the p30+ and then the Leica, a p21+, Nikons, and three more flavors of the 1ds (in duplicate) so if this was 2007, dropping 20 to 40k on a camera back wouldn't be a shock, except for that $2,500 5d2 that's everybody is watching in the center of the dance floor.

Consequently I wrote a Phase One type of check to RED because they had something that no one else offered in the price range.  

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 01:05:29 am by bcooter »
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LKaven

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #166 on: January 27, 2011, 02:48:44 am »

[...]
I love photography, love fine instruments to apply my art, but it's 2011 not 2007 and as much as I respect the small camera companies like Phase I guess I'm a little disappointed that after all that work and effort, they just got their premier product almost to the usability of that low priced Canon and even with that their camera of choice isn't even 2007, it's 2004.
[...]
Consequently I wrote a Phase One type of check to RED because they had something that no one else offered in the price range.

I'm definitely not knocking Phase or its people in what I said.  And I'm sure the new backs are top performers.  Somehow though I did expect them to disrupt things at the low end, perhaps partly because they released C1 LE in a form that all can afford and use, and created an appetite for their brand that way. 

BC, it's interesting that you brought up RED.  Because RED seems to me to be tuned into the very idea that technology is disrupted now from the bottom up much of the time.  They are bringing tools to the table, assuming all goes according to plan, that newer and developing creative artists can use to gain a competitive footing in the industry.  In this economy, this is a quality that engenders deep and lasting loyalty among customers. 

The pull from 24x36 will grow stronger.  The D7000 sensor in FX form by itself would put DSLRs at a new performance level, and Canon will match.  And one can anticipate one big step: video capture derived from downsampling full frame captures. 

Anders_HK

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #167 on: January 27, 2011, 03:08:22 am »

Any reply to following please???

Doug, Steve, or whoever have info;

The user interface looks really great and there is a histogram nearly to size of Leaf backs now  ;D.

However, I am curious of what more exposure information the IQ backs provide. By chance would following be available? ;
1) histogram with gridline for each stop captured (similar to zone system)
2) readout of max and min exposure value captured (in stops), and how this relates to neutral and to the highest and lowest exposure for which the specific back is capable (read at barely textureless white and black)
3) with live view is there any way to expand above and relate to measured values of max and min EV values of the scene, thus to assist in adjusting exposure more precise based on the scene?

Above would be interesting. If not available, could they provide??? Apart from this... should we hope for a Leaf version soon with same type of display to cover the whole available real estate of the back???  :P

Regards
Anders
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BJNY

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Guillermo

Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #169 on: January 27, 2011, 07:16:46 pm »

Any reply to following please???



Anders -

All good questions. If we can get answers short term, we'll provide them. Otherwise, we'll have at least more information at the first dealer-based launch in the USA for the product on February 8 in Atlanta, GA.

The Live View question may not have an answer until closer to delivery. Leaf's plans for their next generation are unknown at this time.


Steve Hendrix
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eronald

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #170 on: January 27, 2011, 07:28:49 pm »

I have no special love for my 5D2. In fact I hate the thing. But it always bounces back into my bag, and surprises me. As an example, I found this neat piece of stop-motion animation software, and guess what? It is every studio shooter's dream of tethering an SLR for box shots. It works with a lot of cameras, but it works real good with the 5D2.

http://www.dragonstopmotion.com/

Edmund

PS. Download the free demo and try it.




The 5d2 is like that Rodney Dangerfield guy that shows up at the benefit ball dressed in a Hawaiian shirt with a stripper on each arm.   It may not be a pretty sight, but you just gotta look.

Except this 5d2 party crasher is athletic, smart, incredibly competent and by the end of the night, everyone is standing around asking for an autograph.

BC
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #171 on: January 29, 2011, 05:58:04 pm »

I have been reading through the posts and I feel there is one thing that everyone has missed; that being is the extra 20 MP worth the extra $8 grand?  

Dont get me wrong, I think the new backs look awesome and, for someone like me who shoots architecture, the live view plus the focus masks and one touch zoom makes my mouth water.  I have not yet upgraded to MFD, but plan on this year (IQ is the least of my reasons just to say) and I like the idea of not needing a sliding back for working outside.  But if I had a MF system already, I probably would be less interested. 

But here is the issue with the IQ180.  All three of these back were developed in conjunction with each other, which means it is highly likely that all three have the same internal components and software (or close to it).  They all process the image in the same fashion, and, since we get less noise with larger pixels, the IQ 160 will be the back to get.  So is the additional 20 MP worth the additional $8 grand since you will be getting a larger amount of noise?  I think it makes no sense unless you deal with moire on a regular basis.  

Please correct me if I am wrong.  
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 06:00:57 pm by JoeKitchen »
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dchew

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #172 on: January 30, 2011, 06:43:32 am »

I have been reading through the posts and I feel there is one thing that everyone has missed; that being is the extra 20 MP worth the extra $8 grand?  

Dont get me wrong, I think the new backs look awesome and, for someone like me who shoots architecture, the live view plus the focus masks and one touch zoom makes my mouth water.  I have not yet upgraded to MFD, but plan on this year (IQ is the least of my reasons just to say) and I like the idea of not needing a sliding back for working outside.  But if I had a MF system already, I probably would be less interested. 

But here is the issue with the IQ180.  All three of these back were developed in conjunction with each other, which means it is highly likely that all three have the same internal components and software (or close to it).  They all process the image in the same fashion, and, since we get less noise with larger pixels, the IQ 160 will be the back to get.  So is the additional 20 MP worth the additional $8 grand since you will be getting a larger amount of noise?  I think it makes no sense unless you deal with moire on a regular basis.  

Please correct me if I am wrong.  
I think you might be, but it depends...

See Erik's post here (second in the thread):
http://Megapixel Count, Megapixel Density x Camera Size, and the dxo thread he references.

Seems to me it depends on how you plan to use the sensor.  If you are at base ISO, then there is little or no noise penalty.  If you plan to use the camera at higher ISO or in the dead of night, then the extra 20mp may hurt.  Is it worth the extra 8k? Well, we are all individual points on a demand curve.  You can answer that for you, and I can answer that for me, but I can't answer that for you!

Dave
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ChristopherBarrett

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #173 on: January 30, 2011, 08:34:46 am »

One of the advantages to the 80mp back is if you do find yourself shooting at night and need some extra ISO you can enable Sensor+ mode and still have a 20mp file.  I'd feel a little better about that than the 15mp Sensor+ mode of my P65+.

CB
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MrSmith

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #174 on: January 30, 2011, 09:14:24 am »

i guess most people just reach for their canon/nikon and shoot that instead, after all the AF will work better in the poor light or live view will enable critical focus.
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asf

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #175 on: January 30, 2011, 10:41:55 am »

Will be interesting to see, if and when the 3fps live view is implemented, how it works in low light or at night.

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Guy Mancuso

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #176 on: January 30, 2011, 10:46:54 am »

Jack and I did a little home brew video of the interface with Kevin Raber from Phase One the other day as we did our field tests of the new back. Goes into the detail of the interface and how it all will work. It's 10 minutes get some popcorn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GYKfT0jvec
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Erick Boileau

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #177 on: January 30, 2011, 01:09:37 pm »

fine ! and in 5 years we shall get decent batteries ...
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DeeJay

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #178 on: January 30, 2011, 02:31:53 pm »

The problem, I find, with the Phamiya system is the Mamiya always seemed to me like a temporary system for them. There was word some time ago about  new cameras being designed.

I don't want to invest in a system like this to find 6 month or a year later that there is a better option.



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vgogolak

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #179 on: January 30, 2011, 07:02:00 pm »

The pricing policy is very interesting. The way Phase are going to make their money is very similar to the way car manufacturers charge strikingly different amounts for what is essentially the same car, with just a slightly different engine. The prices from the Phase site -

IQ180: $43,990
IQ160: $36,990
IQ140: $21,990

Now then, the IQ140 is exactly the same body, screen, etc etc as the IQ180. You can't tell me or anyone else and keep a straight face that the sensor in the 80 costs $20,000 more than the 40, yet the sensor is the only difference between the two. So if Phase are able to make a profit on the IQ140 (and I don't imagine they are selling it at a loss), then the profit on the 80 is, shall we say, ludicrous?


John


There are many factors in pricing, but Drucker, and "market pricing" have retained a certain logic for many decades. Sales are a deal; your product for my money. Cost based pricing may be good for government work but rarely works in an open market.

Companies sometimes price below market to gain share (but must watch for the dreaded "predatory pricing" accusation) and sometime way over market. If they don't as happened with the HP slate 5oo recently, an efficient market took the goin price from a "list" of 799 to over $1800. on ebay  :-)

Phase has a tonne of $$$ in R&D  (ok, maybe it's danish krona) and has a market position, AND product differentiation. If they didn't price the 80 high enough I will bet the 40 woulod need to be priced HIGHER to cover R&D. It's a massively complex guess (esp ultimate market size, that price determines ofthen.)

I for one worry more about keeping Phase in business, making products I like...and for my CONTAX system to booT. Will I upgrade 'you bet' Am I surprised at the price no. Would I want the 80 lower....not sure. If it risked the viability and continuation of Phase CONTAX mounts.

No quibble with your perspective; I dare say, on the cost front you may be right, but other factors I think dominate the Phase pricing decisions.

best regards
Victor

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