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Author Topic: PA241W and Spectraview II  (Read 87406 times)

BJNY

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PA241W and Spectraview II
« Reply #60 on: May 06, 2010, 11:29:46 am »

Thanks for the link to the PDF, Eric.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 12:12:11 pm by BJNY »
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Guillermo

petervdwerf

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« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2010, 06:42:12 pm »

Partially thanks to the posts on this forum I bought a PA241W 2 weeks ago. It should be delivered one of these days. I Can't wait!!!!

After reading this, and other forums, like others I was also confused about the whole US/EU SpectraView difference. Even more because I live in the Netherlands meaning I get the EU version. I contacted NEC support in Europe to get some things cleared up. I must say that support responded both quickly as well as helpful and were patient with my nagging questions:), kudos to them!.
I thought I could be helpful to other (potential) owners if I'd share some findings and help other to avoid misunderstandings..

Facts as given by support:
A) In the EU the "normal" Multisync line is sold, and a second, professional line called the SpectraView Reference line.
B  In the EU "SpectraView Reference" is a more expensive model line consisting of highly selected displays and stricter quality criteria. Those PA241W are the hand-picked "cream of the crop" models, Fogra Certified, and come with a hood, a 6 month pixel warranty and the SpectraView Profiler 4 software (which is a NEC version of the BasICColor Display 4 software)
C) In the US only the "normal" Multisync line is sold. (I know the word "normal" is an understatement for these displays, but you know what I mean..)
D) In the US "SpectraView" is a package consisting of a "normal" PA241W Multisync combined with the SpectraView2 software/NEC calibrator kit. This kit can also be had separately in the US.
E) All US/EU PA241W Multisync models are technically IDENTICAL as far as firmware and hardware.
F) The US SpectraView2 software works for ALL US/EU PA241W displays to do full hardware calibration.
BUT!!: The SpectraView2 software is only available to US customers, and even if you manage to get the software as a European, the SV2 software simply is not supported outside the US.
G) The SpectraView Profiler 4 software that comes with the EU SpectraView Reference displays can do full hardware calibration on only the SpectraView Reference models, but not on the Multisync models.

Two assumptions on my side:
-Support said that all US/EU and Multisync/SpectraViewReference displays are technically identical with the same firmware. I ASSUME that an alteration in the SpectraView Reference firmware is made simply to have this type of monitor identify itself as a SpectraView Reference model to the OS for example. Given the situation that the SpectraView Profiler 4 software only does full hardware calibration on the EU SpectraView Reference models, not on the Multisync models, I ASSUME that their software checks if the connected display can be identified as a SV Reference model, and if so, full hw calibration is works with the Profiler 4 software.
-From reading various posts about the x90 series and SpectraView confusion I THINK that the above also applies to the previous x90 series.

Hope this helps.

Peter




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AndreaPiaggesi

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PA241W and Spectraview II
« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2010, 03:58:17 am »

Hi,
I've red the whole thread and I'm planning to buy this monitor because it seems to be the best 24 inch monitor for under 1000 EUR.

I like the SpectraView software and I already own a SV license with a X-Rite iDisplay 2 that I would like to use to make an hardware calibration of the NEC.

I've called the NEC support here in Italy to get some things cleared up like petervdwerf but I'm a little bit confused because they've told me this:

1) In Italy (I assume in EU) there's a different policy than in US so the SpectraView Kit is not available separately.
2) You can only get the "Reference" version of the monitor (PA241W or the 90 series) to get Software + Colorimeter + Hood
3) The PA241W "normal version" have a different hardware than the PA241W "Reference version" so it can't be hardware calibrated!! You can only make a software calibration by using the video card 8bit LUT and the X-Rite software because the "standard version" lacks the necessary hardware to store the profile.
4) It seems that the "Reference version" have more options in the OSD to make an hardware calibration of the white point, that it's not possible on the standard PA241W package.

I'm planning to buy this monitor from a German shop that have better prices but I would like to be sure that my SpectraView software and X-Rite colorimeter will work flawlessly with it.

Thanks!!!
Andrea
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petervdwerf

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« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2010, 09:44:58 am »

Hello Andrea,

We appear to have had the same confusion, to maybe I can clearify your statements a bit more:

Regarding points 1) & 2):
These are correct, please see my post in which the differences in SpectraView packages/model lines for the US and EU markets are described.

Regarding point 3) & 4)
At first I was told the same thing.. Which only raised more questions on my side. But after further questioning NEC support it turns out that these statements are based on using SpectraView Profiler 4 software. Which makes sense of course, simply because NEC EU only supports that software. It's a marketing thing, they want to sell more SpectraView Refencence models and software.
It's very important to understand that the software in the US (SpectraView2) and EU (SpectraView Profiler 4) is different.

-The EU SpectraView Profiler 4 software is only available in combination with the Reference models and only allows hardware calibration on those Reference models (I assume by checking if a SpectraView Profiler software checks if a Reference model is connected)
-The US SpectaView2 software allows hardware calibration on ALL!! EU/US Multisync/Reference models, nothing in the firmware of either model is enabled/disabled to have more/less functions I was told.
-3rd Party software (like the stock X-Rite software) can not(!) do hardware calibration on either the Multisync or the SpectraView Reference software, because it cannot talk to the PA241W hardware to save the adjusted settings.

If you want to benefit from hardware calibration in the EU you have 2 choices:
1) The "official" way is you get the SpectraView Reference241. Pay ~1300euro and you get the a highly selected display, hood, extra warranty and the apprpriate SpectraView Profiler 4 software to hardware calibrate your display.
2) The "creative" way. Pay ~1000euro to get a Multisync241. The pay ~320euro (incl shipping) to get the US SpectraView kit
through an eg America webshop or an American relative..(or just the SpectraView2 software for ~120euro)

In both cases you pay ~1300euros to be able to hardware calibrate your display.
I've allready ordered a Multisync for about 1000euro. The Reference wasn't available yet and I expected the SpectraView Reference241 to be more expensive. Had I known the 'difference' would be ~300euro. I probably would have waited... Because now I still need the proper software, and in the end I pay more or less the same, but then I would have had the higher quality Reference model...

Another important issue is the use of your X-Rite i1 Display2, which is not fully suitable for wide gamut. I have the same sensor (the stock one, not the NEC custom) and asked NEC US support if this would give my any issues calibrating the PA241W in combination with the SpectraView2 software. Their first response is that the stock X-Rite is not advised because of the wide gamut of the NEC displays. You could get slightly incorrect wite point results. Using the sRGB calibration you should be fine I was told.

As various sources on the web confirm with for instance the 2690, the white point can be off by about 500K, so if you know this, you can work around it by eg choosing a different target. But to be completely sure, and safe yourself the hassle, it's better to get the NEC custom puck (again, officially only for the US.... ) or the Spyder3, which also has wide gamut support. (note that some very early produced Spyder3 models had issues with wide gamut, but current models are compatible)

regards,
Peter

edit: added more specific remark about the i1 Display2 not being optimized for wide gamut.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 03:10:28 am by petervdwerf »
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AndreaPiaggesi

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« Reply #64 on: May 16, 2010, 05:49:34 pm »

Thanks for the reply and for all the informations.

I'm happy to hear that the monitor doesn't have any hardware difference, but I'm thinking about the NEC colorimeter.....I don't know if the NEC custom calibrated sensor will worth the price because I already have the i1Display 2 that should support wide gamut display so I would like to use it.

From the Spectraview FAQ

http://www.necdisplay.com/supportcenter/mo...ectraview2/faq/

Quote
QUESTION: What is the difference between the color sensor used in the SVII-KIT and the new SVII-PRO-KIT?
ANSWER: The new SVII-PRO-KIT includes the MDSVSENSOR2, an NEC branded X-Rite iOne Display V2 color sensor that is custom calibrated for increased measurement accuracy with our wide color gamut displays such as the LCD2690WUXi, LCD2690WUXi2, LCD3090WQXi, and P221W. It is backward compatible with standard color gamut displays. The SVII-KIT included an NEC branded X-Rite iOne Display V2 but did not have any custom calibration.

So the NEC sensor is better but the i1Display 2 should give acceptable results.
Thanks!!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 05:50:16 pm by AndreaPiaggesi »
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JeffKohn

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« Reply #65 on: May 16, 2010, 06:02:35 pm »

Quote
...I already have the i1Display 2 that should support wide gamut display so I would like to use it.
Actually the i1Display 2 is not optimal for wide-gamut displays. It will work, but it cannot measure the full gamut of these displays; so the resulting profile will have a smaller gamut than if you used the SVII-Pro colorimeter, a Spyder3, or a spectro.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 06:02:55 pm by JeffKohn »
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Czornyj

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« Reply #66 on: May 16, 2010, 06:02:40 pm »

Quote from: AndreaPiaggesi
So the NEC sensor is better but the i1Display 2 should give acceptable results.
Thanks!!

That depends what results are acceptable for you - standard i1d2 may calibrate the white point in a wrong way. The good news is that PA241W is factory calibrated, so when you set the white point to 6500K using OSD controls or Multiprofiler, you get a very good result. In case you'll encounter some problems while calibrating the white point with i1d2 and SVII, you can measure the chromatic coordinates of the factory preset 6500K white, and use it as a calibration target.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 06:04:35 pm by Czornyj »
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digitaldog

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« Reply #67 on: May 16, 2010, 07:23:19 pm »

Quote from: Czornyj
That depends what results are acceptable for you - standard i1d2 may calibrate the white point in a wrong way.

In my case, it was off about 500K compared to the target based on trying the same with an EyeOne Pro. But its not a big deal because these are just numbers and ultimately, one often has to alter the values to produce a visual match. You just end up adjusting the values to taste.

Yes, the i1 with mated filters is preferable. If a user has the budget, go for it. If not, the i1-D2 will do the job with a bit of a fudge factor.
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AndreaPiaggesi

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« Reply #68 on: May 17, 2010, 06:35:01 pm »

Quote from: JeffKohn
Actually the i1Display 2 is not optimal for wide-gamut displays. It will work, but it cannot measure the full gamut of these displays; so the resulting profile will have a smaller gamut than if you used the SVII-Pro colorimeter, a Spyder3, or a spectro.

Hi,
please sorry for the delay.

It's new to me, usually the i1Display 2 is suggested for wide gamut displays, maybe I'm wrong but I've red that it's the same hardware of the Lacie Blue Eye and all the TFT central reviews are all made with this colorimeter.

Forget the NEC monitor, which is the best colorimeter for a wide gamut displays (Eizo, Dell or something like)?

Thanks digitaldog & Czornyj for the suggestion regarding the calibration, I'm thinking to change the i1Display2 with the NEC colorimeter but it's very expensive because I have to get it from USA or I can wait for the 241 reference version but I don't think it'll be cheaper than EUR 1500 (actually the PA241W is available for 900 EUR)!!!

Thanks!!
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digitaldog

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« Reply #69 on: May 17, 2010, 06:53:45 pm »

Quote from: AndreaPiaggesi
It's new to me, usually the i1Display 2 is suggested for wide gamut displays, maybe I'm wrong but I've red that it's the same hardware of the Lacie Blue Eye and all the TFT central reviews are all made with this colorimeter.

Suggested as an ideal colorimeter by whom? Its not ideal. Its not expecting a wide gamut display. It will work as noted but its not ideal assuming you are in the market for an instrument.

Quote
Forget the NEC monitor, which is the best colorimeter for a wide gamut displays (Eizo, Dell or something like)?

Best would be one specially tuned filter wise for the display. I haven’t seen anything like this since the Sony Artisan. 2nd best would be one tuned to expect a wide gamut display, which is what NEC has done.

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Czornyj

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« Reply #70 on: May 17, 2010, 06:57:17 pm »

Quote from: AndreaPiaggesi
Forget the NEC monitor, which is the best colorimeter for a wide gamut displays (Eizo, Dell or something like)?

Quato Silver Haze is the only colorimeter I'd recommend for a wide gamut display - Quato profiler has standard correction tables for various backlight spectra, and it's combined with the reliable X-Rite DTP 94B colorimeter. It's not perfect but it's better than nothing.

The other option would be X-Rite ColorMunki spectrophotometer and ArgyllCMS profiler (in case of 10-12bit LUT displays).
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 06:59:53 pm by Czornyj »
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petervdwerf

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« Reply #71 on: May 17, 2010, 08:02:58 pm »

Quote from: AndreaPiaggesi
It's new to me, usually the i1Display 2 is suggested for wide gamut displays, maybe I'm wrong but I've red that it's the same hardware of the Lacie Blue Eye and all the TFT central reviews are all made with this colorimeter.
Andrea, I'm afraid these are two different things. The i1 Display2 is still not meant for wide gamut measuring, XRite support will confirm this if you contact them. The Lacie Blue Eye Pro indeed has the same stock sensor as the i1 Display2, just another paint job. The fact that the Lacie package is used by TFTcentral (and most other reviews sites) does not change the capabilities of it's sensor. A major reason for reviews sites to use this package is because the Lacie software offers detailed dE reporting fuctions. (http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/lacie_blue-eye.htm)

Quote
Forget the NEC monitor, which is the best colorimeter for a wide gamut displays (Eizo, Dell or something like)?

I've contacted NEC US support about this issue. For wide gamut measuting their advise was to get the NEC sensor or the Spyder3. The Spyder3 express can be had for about 90euro and is fully compatible with the SpectraView2 software and wide gamut displays (whether it's a Dell/Eizo/NEC etc..).
As Czornyj mentioned in the previous post, there are other spectrophotometer options like the Munki, those packages have more/other capablities then the i1/Spyder colorimeters and are in a different price class.

If you want the NEC sensor I suggest you sell your i1 Display2 and get the NEC sensor online. I estimate this upgrade will cost you about 70euro... That's a good deal and way cheaper then a spectrophotometer.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 08:14:00 pm by petervdwerf »
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BJNY

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« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2010, 09:07:29 am »

Quote from: WillH
The Mini DisplayPort -> DisplayPort adapter will work, however I strongly caution against using that particular design since it is *very* fragile and one wrong move will destroy the connector on your Mac. It is much better to get a Mini DisplayPort -> DisplayPort cable (monoprice sells them). The Apple Mini DisplayPort to Dual-Link DVI Adapter will work, but is not necessary since all of the PA series displays have DisplayPort inputs.

Thanks Will.

Can PA series display output from Canon Mini-HDMI port?

Are there such cables: Male Mini-HDMI to DisplayPort?
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Guillermo

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Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
« Reply #73 on: August 14, 2010, 02:32:07 pm »

I'm new to this forum, so let me say hello everyone!

I'm in Spain and I sell workstations for the computer animation industry. I'm currently researching the PA241 for my customers and a critical point is hardware calibration.

Maybe I'm thick, but after reading this thread twice, I still can't completely understand the situation. It seems the PA241 has identical hardware worldwide, so the American SVII software will work indeed on the European "plain" PA241W models as well, right?

I'm OK buying downloadable software from the US, but not so fine with importing goods that NEC doesn't support in Europe, like their custom Eye One Display 2 puck.

So, summing it all up, am I good to go with buying the PA241W and a compatible colorimeter like the Spyder 3 Express, both in Europe, and then go and buy (download) the SVII software from the NEC USA site?
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gromit

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Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2010, 08:00:11 pm »

Maybe I'm thick, but after reading this thread twice, I still can't completely understand the situation. It seems the PA241 has identical hardware worldwide, so the American SVII software will work indeed on the European "plain" PA241W models as well, right?

My understanding is that you can hardware calibrate any version with the SpectraView II software, but SpectraView Profiler will only work with the SpectraView Reference version. You can of course use any software to just profile.

I recently bought a SpectraView Reference PA271W and spent some time playing around with different calibration/profiling options and came to the conclusion that most people are probably better off just using NEC's MultiProfiler software. This enables you to dial in any calibration settings and it activates a corresponding (matrix) profile on your system. It's a bit buggy still but this I think is the future of monitor calibration. The problem is that current consumer-level colorimeters just aren't to be relied upon. I got maybe the best results with using MultiProfiler for the calibration and then using SpectraView Profiler to profile only with a Samsung branded i1 Display 2 but the differences were negligible compared to those generated by MultiProfiler alone. I also used a Spyder 3 but the shadows weren't clean, though the reported gamut was larger. Which to trust? My understanding is that SpectraView II just generates matrix profiles so I don't see the benefit in using it. Final brightness, black level and whitepoint are going to be set by eye anyway.

The new NEC models look to be outstanding monitors ... if you get a good one.

NB. I edited out the parenthesis about uniformity with my PA271W as discussions with the supplier are ongoing. I don't think the model should be tarnished by my sole experience with what is increasingly looking like rough handling in shipping.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 09:14:51 pm by gromit »
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WombatHorror

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Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2010, 12:10:33 am »

My understanding is that you can hardware calibrate any version with the SpectraView II software, but SpectraView Profiler will only work with the SpectraView Reference version. You can of course use any software to just profile.

I recently bought a SpectraView Reference PA271W (which is going back because of poor uniformity) and spent some time playing around with different calibration/profiling options and came to the conclusion that most people are probably better off just using NEC's MultiProfiler software. This enables you to dial in any calibration settings and it activates a corresponding (matrix) profile on your system. It's a bit buggy still but this I think is the future of monitor calibration. The problem is that current consumer-level colorimeters just aren't to be relied upon. I got maybe the best results with using MultiProfiler for the calibration and then using SpectraView Profiler to profile only with a Samsung branded i1 Display 2 but the differences were negligible compared to those generated by MultiProfiler alone. I also used a Spyder 3 but the shadows weren't clean, though the reported gamut was larger. Which to trust? My understanding is that SpectraView II just generates matrix profiles so I don't see the benefit in using it. Final brightness, black level and whitepoint are going to set by eye anyway.

The new NEC models look to be outstanding monitors ... if you get a good one.

Well I don't know about Spectraview profiler since they don't make it available in the US but SV II, over here at least, still has uses. First, the NEC puck won't give a proper reading outside of SV II so you need it to measure patches for adjusting settings in MultiProfiler. Multiprofiler doesn't let you measure anything itself. So you can use SV II to take measurements and then alter white point in MP or say sRGB primary locations.

And for photo editing you want to use native gamut and you need to make a profile of that which MP can't do so over here you need SV II to do that.
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gromit

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Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
« Reply #76 on: August 15, 2010, 01:13:08 am »

And for photo editing you want to use native gamut and you need to make a profile of that which MP can't do so over here you need SV II to do that.

MultiProfiler will generate a profile for native gamut (page 25 of the manual). If you've got more confidence in using a puck and it delivers better results, use it.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 01:18:06 am by gromit »
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Rhossydd

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Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
« Reply #77 on: August 15, 2010, 02:22:30 am »

I'm OK buying downloadable software from the US,
Not quite that simple though. You need a credit/debit card with a US address to be able to pay for it.

I remain to be convinced that paying the extra 25% in the EU for a SV reference model of these monitors is really worth it.
I'll be very interested to read anyone's experience of trying to use Spectraview 4 software (aka Basicolor 4.1.7) on an EU Multisync PA2xx-w model. At the moment I've got an older(dying) SV 1980 and a MS1980 and the software works on both, so I'm hopeful to get it working with the PA series.

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probep

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Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
« Reply #78 on: August 15, 2010, 03:43:26 am »

Not quite that simple though. You need a credit/debit card with a US address to be able to pay for it.
Everyone can buy any goods from US via brokers. There are some
http://www.oneusaaddress.com/
http://www.anythingfromamerica.com/

I've bought SVII's and NEC colorimeters via such broker.
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Czornyj

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Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
« Reply #79 on: August 15, 2010, 07:48:18 am »

I remain to be convinced that paying the extra 25% in the EU for a SV reference model of these monitors is really worth it.
I'll be very interested to read anyone's experience of trying to use Spectraview 4 software (aka Basicolor 4.1.7) on an EU Multisync PA2xx-w model. At the moment I've got an older(dying) SV 1980 and a MS1980 and the software works on both, so I'm hopeful to get it working with the PA series.
Regular PA can't be hardware calibrated via basICColor/Spectraview - it's blocked in the the firmware. In the past there were tricks to unlock it in x80 and in early x90 models, but now NEC made things more complicated and AFAIK it can't be done in a simple way (or at least the method remains undiscovered), so the US Spectraview II software is the only way to make it.
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