Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Czornyj on March 04, 2010, 09:00:42 am

Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on March 04, 2010, 09:00:42 am
I'll have the new PA241W for tests next week, so I'm curious - when will it be supported by Spectraview II?
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: probep on March 04, 2010, 10:08:13 am
Quote from: Czornyj
I'll have the new PA241W for tests next week, so I'm curious - when will it be supported by Spectraview II?
In April.
Look at http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=34693323 (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1004&message=34693323)
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: AdrianRogers on March 04, 2010, 12:02:57 pm
Presume there will be no option to upgrade later for EU customers ala current Spectraview situation?
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on March 04, 2010, 01:28:19 pm
Quote from: probep
In April.
Thanks!

Quote from: AdrianRogers
Presume there will be no option to upgrade later for EU customers ala current Spectraview situation?

NEC Display Europe policy is different than NEC Display America policy - in Europe they're selecting best units, tag 'em with Spectraview label, and enable hardware calibration. In US there's more democratic approach, so you can have hardware calibration in any unit - but you can't get best units selected by NEC technicians.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: probep on March 06, 2010, 11:27:10 pm
Quote from: Czornyj
NEC Display Europe policy is different than NEC Display America policy - in Europe they're selecting best units, tag 'em with Spectraview label, and enable hardware calibration. In US there's more democratic approach, so you can have hardware calibration in any unit - but you can't get best units selected by NEC technicians.
Yes, you are absolutely right. But "American" SpectraView II supports NEC MDSVSENSOR2 colorimeter that is "Custom Calibrated for Wide-Gamut NEC Displays". I like it. NEC MDSVSENSOR2 sensors are specifically calibrated for SpectraView II against a lab grade instrument to match a particular type of display.

BTW I have compared NEC MDSVSENSOR2 with some "generic" sensors for NEC 2690WUXi2 monitor. Here is the result.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on March 07, 2010, 05:22:50 am
Quote from: probep
Yes, you are absolutely right. But "American" SpectraView II supports NEC MDSVSENSOR2 colorimeter that is "Custom Calibrated for Wide-Gamut NEC Displays". I like it. NEC MDSVSENSOR2 sensors are specifically calibrated for SpectraView II against a lab grade instrument to match a particular type of display.

BTW I have compared NEC MDSVSENSOR2 with some "generic" sensors for NEC 2690WUXi2 monitor. Here is the result.

Very funny  Doesn't Spyder 3's "optical design and color engine enable precise calibration and profiling of the latest in wide gamut, LED backlight and AdobeRGB displays"?

AFAIK Karl Koch created correction tables for popular colorimeters, so Spectraview Display 4 (aka basICColor) should achive better results - as long as the inter-instrumental agreement of colorimeter is good enough
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: probep on March 07, 2010, 06:52:25 am
Quote from: Czornyj
Very funny  Doesn't Spyder 3's "optical design and color engine enable precise calibration and profiling of the latest in wide gamut, LED backlight and AdobeRGB displays"?

AFAIK Karl Koch created correction tables for popular colorimeters, so Spectraview Display 4 (aka basICColor) should achive better results - as long as the inter-instrumental agreement of colorimeter is good enough
About Spyder3. I bought my Spyder3Elite one year ago and it's very inaccurate for wide gamut displays. NEC wrote: "Some early production units (Spyder3) did not produce acceptable results, however recent production units of the Spyder3 have shown some accuracy improvements when measuring wide color gamut displays. " Maybe that is the reason.

BTW SpectraCal company calibrates user's Spyder3 for CalMAN application. But: "You will send in your Spyder3 and it will be verified if it can indeed be calibrated. If its performance is too far out of range to correct, your Spyder3 will be returned to you"
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Anthony R on March 12, 2010, 12:40:31 pm
Have you received your unit yet? I'm quite interested in this monitor.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on March 18, 2010, 09:01:39 am
Quote from: Anthony R
Have you received your unit yet? I'm quite interested in this monitor.

It's beautiful - I highly recommend it. The uniformity is better than in x90 series, the tonality is better, the gamut is larger, the hardware calibration can be made thru USB interface (it is faster), and the display has unique feature to change it's color space, so it may emulate various synthetic editing spaces (something similar to HP2480zx function).
Unfortunatelly I have no acces to new Spectraview II (or III?), but the display seems to be a strong competitor to Eizo CG243W.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Anthony R on March 18, 2010, 11:45:20 am
Quote from: Czornyj
It's beautiful - I highly recommend it. The uniformity is better than in x90 series, the tonality is better, the gamut is larger, the hardware calibration can be made thru USB interface (it is faster), and the display has unique feature to change it's color space, so it may emulate various synthetic editing spaces (something similar to HP2480zx function).
Unfortunatelly I have no acces to new Spectraview II (or III?), but the display seems to be a strong competitor to Eizo CG243W.


Good to know, thanks. I'm currently using a CG211 and CG241W. I wonder why the price is so much lower than the x90 series and when a larger (26") might be available and at what price. What are you calibrating the monitor with?
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on March 18, 2010, 12:01:44 pm
Quote from: Anthony R
Good to know, thanks. I'm currently using a CG211 and CG241W. I wonder why the price is so much lower than the x90 series and when a larger (26") might be available and at what price. What are you calibrating the monitor with?

There'll be no 26" - PA271W will be 27" panel with 2560x1440 resolution, an it should be available in a month or two

I use i1pro rev.D - I'll share my validation results as soon as I'll finish the test. It won't tell the whole story, because Spectraview II doesn't support PA241W so the most precise, hardware calibration is not available yet, but it'll give some idea of what's that display potential.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on March 21, 2010, 04:34:04 am
I wonder, at least in Germany, the price for this monitor is above the 2490.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Paul Stalker on March 21, 2010, 11:47:42 am
Quote from: Czornyj
It's beautiful - I highly recommend it. The uniformity is better than in x90 series, the tonality is better, the gamut is larger, the hardware calibration can be made thru USB interface (it is faster), and the display has unique feature to change it's color space, so it may emulate various synthetic editing spaces (something similar to HP2480zx function).
Unfortunatelly I have no acces to new Spectraview II (or III?), but the display seems to be a strong competitor to Eizo CG243W.

I was glad for the lucky timing in seeing your comments and would be keen on additional comments from anyone who is able to yet. I've got funds for a new display (to use with my year-old 3800) that must be spent in the next week. I've already decided on NEC and had been thinking since a few weeks ago of the 2690W2 (Spectraview-included version of 2690WUXi2) when I read about the imminent arrival of the PA241W. These are listed but not available yet in North America (I've heard from a week overdue to 6-10wks away). I could easily live with a screen that's 1.4in smaller and would probably prefer taking that size hit if it's a better display. And is it that much better to make it worth slightly more than a bigger 2690WUXi2 (as listed here in NA)? I'm willing to prepay & then wait if necessary but am hesitant without seeing a major review or additional comments from LuLa users. I would presumably get Spectraview (III?) later. Thanks for comments or advice.
cheers,
Paul
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Roy on March 31, 2010, 06:53:07 pm
Quote from: PaulStalker
I was glad for the lucky timing in seeing your comments and would be keen on additional comments from anyone who is able to yet. I've got funds for a new display (to use with my year-old 3800) that must be spent in the next week.

Paul,

CDW (cdw.ca) is now listing the PA241W at $1230 Cdn. Vistek is also listing it but at 1349!

Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: digitaldog on March 31, 2010, 07:03:32 pm
Quote from: Czornyj
Unfortunatelly I have no acces to new Spectraview II (or III?), but the display seems to be a strong competitor to Eizo CG243W.

What is interesting about the unit, and it will be even more interesting to see how it pans out for users, is you don’t have to use an instrument or SpectraView II to calibrate it unless you wish to. The monitor is factory calibrated using a very expensive lab grade color sensor and is capable of tracking how colors change over time and temperature, brightness etc. The color engine allows you to set in a specific luminance, white point, gamut etc. which it will then use to set this all out without the need for an external sensor.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Roy on March 31, 2010, 09:01:50 pm
Quote from: digitaldog
What is interesting about the unit...

Andrew, sounds wonderful, tell more!

Calibrated to what? Doesn't my software need a monitor profile to know how to manage it?
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: digitaldog on March 31, 2010, 09:03:33 pm
Quote from: Roy
Calibrated to what? Doesn't my software need a monitor profile to know how to manage it?

There are target calibrations such as Adobe RGB (1998), sRGB, full gamut, then you tell the software the cd/m2 values you wish. It then builds a profile to reflect that.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Roy on March 31, 2010, 09:12:34 pm
Quote from: digitaldog
There are target calibrations such as Adobe RGB (1998), sRGB, full gamut, then you tell the software the cd/m2 values you wish. It then builds a profile to reflect that.

My VISA card may get some use tomorrow! This sounds like the next step. My Apple 23" display may soon be on Crag's List.

I have good calibration gear (iOne pro and display), so do I put that away, or use it?
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: digitaldog on March 31, 2010, 09:49:52 pm
Quote from: Roy
My VISA card may get some use tomorrow! This sounds like the next step. My Apple 23" display may soon be on Crag's List.

Well its still a pre-production unit I’m looking at so you might want to wait until the dust settles, the product is actually released and it gets a more through review from others.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Paul Stalker on April 05, 2010, 11:53:53 pm
The last week of March came and went without my new display being purchased---my organization changed the rules and allowed a 1yr-max roll-over for "time-limited" funding. So I decided to wait to find out more about the PA241W. My main question is how does this fit into NEC's line-up? Is this a replacement for the 2690WUXi2 or will the 2690WUXi2 continue to be sold with the PA241W being a junior model to it? Since most high technology changes quickly it's usually a smarter purchase to buy the latest model. Is that true in this case?

So far the PA241W features look very intriguing but info seems to be coming so slowly on this that I'm worried I'm going to soon be tempted to then wait for the PA271W (June?)! I don't know how much longer my old display can hold out.

BTW, CDW.CA is now finally listing actual PA241W stock in the tens of units but only in the Calgary & Vancouver warehouses.

cheers
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: WillH on April 06, 2010, 01:08:41 am
Quote from: PaulStalker
The last week of March came and went without my new display being purchased---my organization changed the rules and allowed a 1yr-max roll-over for "time-limited" funding. So I decided to wait to find out more about the PA241W. My main question is how does this fit into NEC's line-up? Is this a replacement for the 2690WUXi2 or will the 2690WUXi2 continue to be sold with the PA241W being a junior model to it? Since most high technology changes quickly it's usually a smarter purchase to buy the latest model. Is that true in this case?

The current LCD90 series will be phased out as the newer PA series takes over. The 24" PA241W is the first one released, followed by the 27" PA271W in a couple of months. The technology in the PA series takes all of the best features of the 90 series and adds a bunch of new features based on customer feedback we have received and the enhanced capabilities of the new internal color processor engine.

The displays can *very* accurately be adjusted to emulate color gamuts such as sRGB, AdobeRGB etc., so there is no longer a need to base your purchase decision on your color workflow and the color gamut of the display model. All of the PA series are native wide color gamut displays. Also you can now set the display luminance by an absolute value in Candelas rather than the typical 0-100% control.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Paul Stalker on April 06, 2010, 06:59:36 am
Thanks for that info Will. (And to Andrew for earlier comments) I'll now be getting a PA model. It's been mentioned that they may not even need calibration by the end-user. Do we know yet it can be trusted without doing one? Other than paying a small cost premium later for it, should I then wait a while to see if I should buy SpectraView separately for it?
Part of deciding whether to wait on the PA271W is knowing the relative price for it. When will NEC be putting up a suggested list price? I haven't seen one anywhere yet.
cheers
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Roy on April 07, 2010, 01:59:45 pm
Quote from: WillH
The displays can *very* accurately be adjusted to emulate color gamuts such as sRGB, AdobeRGB etc., so there is no longer a need to base your purchase decision on your color workflow and the color gamut of the display model. All of the PA series are native wide color gamut displays. Also you can now set the display luminance by an absolute value in Candelas rather than the typical 0-100% control.

Will, does this mean that I could load the monitor with the profile for a printer/paper combination and see (within the limits of the gamut of the display) a preview of the printed image? Or is the monitor limited to standard gamuts?
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: digitaldog on April 07, 2010, 02:01:47 pm
Quote from: Roy
Will, does this mean that I could load the monitor with the profile for a printer/paper combination and see (within the limits of the gamut of the display) a preview of the printed image?

Yes, my understanding is you can get a “soft proof” based on the full gamut of the display, not a dumbed down one based on an sRGB like display.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Roy on April 07, 2010, 02:04:47 pm
PA241/PA271 user manual now up on NEC web site:

http://www.necvisualsystems.com/cms/docume..._UserManual.pdf (http://www.necvisualsystems.com/cms/documents/UserManuals/PA241W-PA271W_UserManual.pdf)
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Chris_Brown on April 14, 2010, 01:29:40 pm
Quote from: Roy
PA241/PA271 user manual now up on NEC web site:
http://www.necvisualsystems.com/cms/docume..._UserManual.pdf (http://www.necvisualsystems.com/cms/documents/UserManuals/PA241W-PA271W_UserManual.pdf)
Thanks for the link.

I see it utilizes a Display Port connection, supporting 10-bit color depth. Does this require a certain brand/model of graphics card? I was planning on using an ATI Radeon HD 4870 or nVidia GeForce GT 120 with this unit, but don't know if either of these cards support 10-bit output.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on April 14, 2010, 02:49:56 pm
Quote from: Chris_Brown
Thanks for the link.

I see it utilizes a Display Port connection, supporting 10-bit color depth. Does this require a certain brand/model of graphics card? I was planning on using an ATI Radeon HD 4870 or nVidia GeForce GT 120 with this unit, but don't know if either of these cards support 10-bit output.

I think it still remains a ghost-feature. The DisplayPort interface is 10 bit, but AFAIK neither graphic card drivers, OS nor Photoshop support 10 bit palette. And so or so - even with 8 bit palette - the new PA241W is as smooth and neutral as a display can be, so there's really nothing to worry about.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: davidlang on April 18, 2010, 09:57:54 pm
So the PA241W has gotten a couple more reviews so far:

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/nec_pa241w.htm (http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/nec_pa241w.htm)
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2362472,00.asp (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2362472,00.asp)

Wondering whether to jump on this, wait for the SV version, or even the 27" to come out in a few months. Really tough to decide!

Anyone have more news/thoughts on the PA241W?
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: WillH on April 19, 2010, 01:12:36 pm
Quote from: davidlang
So the PA241W has gotten a couple more reviews so far:

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/nec_pa241w.htm (http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/nec_pa241w.htm)
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2362472,00.asp (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2362472,00.asp)

Wondering whether to jump on this, wait for the SV version, or even the 27" to come out in a few months. Really tough to decide!

Anyone have more news/thoughts on the PA241W?


The new free MultiProfiler software, and an updated version of SpectraView II that supports the PA241W is now available online:

http://www.necdisplay.com/MultiProfiler/ (http://www.necdisplay.com/MultiProfiler/)


http://www.necdisplay.com/SpectraView/ (http://www.necdisplay.com/SpectraView/)
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on April 19, 2010, 01:15:45 pm
Quote from: WillH
The new free MultiProfiler software, and an updated version of SpectraView II that supports the PA241W is now available online:

http://www.necdisplay.com/MultiProfiler/ (http://www.necdisplay.com/MultiProfiler/)


http://www.necdisplay.com/SpectraView/ (http://www.necdisplay.com/SpectraView/)

Thanks a lot, Will!!!
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on April 19, 2010, 01:34:37 pm
Quote from: Czornyj
I think it still remains a ghost-feature. The DisplayPort interface is 10 bit, but AFAIK neither graphic card drivers, OS nor Photoshop support 10 bit palette. And so or so - even with 8 bit palette - the new PA241W is as smooth and neutral as a display can be, so there's really nothing to worry about.

Correction - according to the last gossip that I've heard, Photoshop CS5 will be supporting 10bit output, so CS5 + Windows 7 + 10 bit graphic card with display port may potentially provide full 10 bit path (I don't know about Snow Leo)
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: JeffKohn on April 20, 2010, 02:28:31 am
I know the latest generation or ATI Radeon cards support 10-bit color on Windows, but I don't think any of the previous generation cards do, and I don't know how good the driver support is. And it may just be Windows 7, I'm not sure about Vista.

In theory, application support for 10-bit color should be pretty trivial to implement once the OS and graphics driver support it.

Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: RobWalstrom on April 22, 2010, 05:44:42 pm
Quote from: Czornyj
Correction - according to the last gossip that I've heard, Photoshop CS5 will be supporting 10bit output, so CS5 + Windows 7 + 10 bit graphic card with display port may potentially provide full 10 bit path (I don't know about Snow Leo)

Yep, check out the end of this thread (http://forums.adobe.com/message/2346311) and the information by Chris Cox of Adobe.

The PA241W sounds like a great monitor. I'm holding out for pricing on the PA271W and with Spectraview II supporting the PA series now I hope to see a bundle in the very near future.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on April 22, 2010, 06:35:22 pm
Quote from: RobWalstrom
Yep, check out the end of this thread (http://forums.adobe.com/message/2346311) and the information by Chris Cox of Adobe.

The PA241W sounds like a great monitor. I'm holding out for pricing on the PA271W and with Spectraview II supporting the PA series now I hope to see a bundle in the very near future.

Yeah, it is great! The display is very flexible - it may work as wide gamut softproofing monitor @160cd/m^2, and in a blink of an eye it can be transformed into web design sRGB screen @80cd/m^2. The new Multirpofiler is nice - it can change the gamut of the display, so it can mimic synthetic editing spaces, or specific printer+paper color space - with the paper white and black ink simulation option, and rendering intent selection.

The display uniformity is also very good, the one I measured max deviation was 2,4 dE (94), with 1-1,5 dE (94) on average.

There's wide backlight regulation range, so calibration (with i1pro rev.D) validation results for 80cd/m^2 are as good as for 120 or 160cd/m^2:
(http://members.chello.pl/m.kaluza/NEC-PA2.jpg)
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: rickhatCHROMiX on April 23, 2010, 01:25:43 am
I just happened to be strolling around on NEC's website and noticed the new Spectraview II software as well. Yes Mr Hollingworth, thank you. I haven't seen any formal PR announcements yet, but this does seem to be the new production version compatible with the PA241W and the MultiSync PA Series (that we all have been waiting for). It does list the PA241W and the PA271W models. No Windows 7 compatibility yet, and there are some 'red-marked' caveats for a few Mac OS's to pay attention to.

<http://www.necdisplay.com/SupportCenter/Monitors/spectraview2/>

rickhatCHROMiX
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: WillH on April 23, 2010, 08:39:29 am
Quote from: rickhatCHROMiX
It does list the PA241W and the PA271W models. No Windows 7 compatibility yet, and there are some 'red-marked' caveats for a few Mac OS's to pay attention to.

rickhatCHROMiX
Windows 7 is supported. Where did you read that it wasn't?
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: JeffKohn on April 23, 2010, 12:33:16 pm
Quote from: WillH
Windows 7 is supported. Where did you read that it wasn't?
This page doesn't list Windows 7 as a supported OS, although it also doesn't explicitly say it's no supported.

http://www.necdisplay.com/supportcenter/mo.../compatibility/ (http://www.necdisplay.com/supportcenter/monitors/spectraview2/compatibility/)

Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: WillH on April 23, 2010, 03:51:22 pm
Quote from: JeffKohn
This page doesn't list Windows 7 as a supported OS, although it also doesn't explicitly say it's no supported.

http://www.necdisplay.com/supportcenter/mo.../compatibility/ (http://www.necdisplay.com/supportcenter/monitors/spectraview2/compatibility/)

Oh! You are right. Seems the spec on that page wasn't updated. Should be fixed by Monday. Thanks for pointing that out.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: degrub on April 24, 2010, 09:33:13 am
Will,

Slightly OT - What is the dead pixel policy on the PAs for warranty ? i was not able to find a listing on the website.

Thanks.

Frank Worley
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: RickBerger on April 26, 2010, 02:02:44 am
Quote from: WillH
All of the PA series are native wide color gamut displays.

According to tftcentral, the PA231W will be 75% of AdobeRGB ... is that correct or did they get it wrong?

I'd really prefer a standard gamut display.  I'm still concerned that the colorimetric distance between any two colors is much larger on a wide gamut display.  Does a 10-bit panel give me better emulation of sRGB even if I'm not using a 10-bit application?  Why would the PA231W emulate sRGB better than an LCD2690WUXI?  I'd love it if someone could explain this.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on April 26, 2010, 04:02:58 am
Quote from: RickBerger
According to tftcentral, the PA231W will be 75% of AdobeRGB ... is that correct or did they get it wrong?

I'd really prefer a standard gamut display.  I'm still concerned that the colorimetric distance between any two colors is much larger on a wide gamut display.  Does a 10-bit panel give me better emulation of sRGB even if I'm not using a 10-bit application?  Why would the PA231W emulate sRGB better than an LCD2690WUXI?  I'd love it if someone could explain this.

I don't know about gamut volume of PA231W, but PA241W has 14bit 3D LUT, that allows you to calibrate the gamut. In former displays like 2690WUXi2 you only could calibrate RGB gain value, here you can also calibrate RGB chromacity coordinates - so you can have precise, high quality sRGB simulation. In fact you can even change the shape of the displays gamut, so not only it simulates simple matrix RGB profiles, but also more complex LUT RGB profiles, like the color space of the printer.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: DavidBreslauer on April 30, 2010, 04:27:41 pm
My faithful original 23-inch cinema display finally needed to go. After much research, and agonizing, I selected the LaCie 724 and their calibrator. All three of them went back to LaCie because of uneven illumination...clearly visible to my eyes AND shown in their own calibration report. Anything more than 10% is considered unacceptable, My monitors had between 13-17% variation in the display report.
So, I started my research over again.  The Apple was appealing, but the glossy display was a turn off.
I settled on the NEC PA241W being discussed here.
It is a great monitor out of the box. No detectable unevenness. Better response than the LaCie as well, not tearing when moving dialog boxes. And a cheaper solution as well!

Just waiting for the new NEC puck and software to fine tune the display, but could not be happier.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: davidlang on May 01, 2010, 08:19:37 pm
Just ordered a PA241W with the spectraview kit from cdw.ca. Really excited for this to arrive.

The hood for it seems to be sold out everywhere though. Still on the hunt for one...

Grateful to everyone on this forum for their valuable discussions. Sheds light on the complicated world of colour and monitors.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Paul Stalker on May 03, 2010, 10:59:40 pm
PA271W finally listed today on www.necdisplay.com for $320USD more than PA241W, either alone or for SV bundled. Very tempting to wait until this one ships (June?) In general, are there any downsides to a larger display?
cheers,
Paul
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: JeffKohn on May 03, 2010, 11:15:04 pm
Quote from: PaulStalker
PA271W finally listed today on www.necdisplay.com for $320USD more than PA241W, either alone or for SV bundled. Very tempting to wait until this one ships (June?) In general, are there any downsides to a larger display?
cheers,
Paul
The only downside would be if it had a coarser dot-pitch, but according to the specs it's actually finer (.23 on the 27", .27 on the 24"). If your desk layout doesn't allow adequate viewing distance, I suppose that could be an issue. You don't want to be so close to the display that you have to turn your head to see everything.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: RobWalstrom on May 04, 2010, 12:17:59 pm
Quote from: JeffKohn
The only downside would be if it had a coarser dot-pitch, but according to the specs it's actually finer (.23 on the 27", .27 on the 24"). If your desk layout doesn't allow adequate viewing distance, I suppose that could be an issue. You don't want to be so close to the display that you have to turn your head to see everything.

The other difference worth noting is the 24" model has 98% coverage of AdobeRGB while the 27" has 97.1%.

I called NEC and was told that they are shipping the PA241W-BK-SV kit now but the PA271W-BK/PA271W-BK-SV will not be shipping until the end of May. I was all excited about the 27" but with the super fine pixel pitch I'm a bit worried about eye strain now. My current 20" monitor has a pixel pitch of .26. May have to take a look at a 27" iMac in the stores for a comparison.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: BJNY on May 04, 2010, 08:20:52 pm
I'm thinking about getting the 30" PA down the road when it becomes available.

Wondering if this Mini DisplayPort to DisplayPort adapter (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10428&cs_id=1042803&p_id=5714&seq=1&format=2) will connect it to MacBook Pro,
or will Apple's Mini DisplayPort to Dual-Link DVI Adapter (http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB571Z/A) still be necessary?
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: JeffKohn on May 04, 2010, 10:44:40 pm
Quote from: BJNY
I'm thinking about getting the 30" PA down the road when it becomes available.

Wondering if this Mini DisplayPort to DisplayPort adapter (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10428&cs_id=1042803&p_id=5714&seq=1&format=2) will connect it to MacBook Pro,
or will Apple's Mini DisplayPort to Dual-Link DVI Adapter (http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB571Z/A) still be necessary?
At that price I would think the Monoprice part is certainly worth I try. I would avoid DVI input on the display if possible, since it limits you to 8-bit per channel color.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: WillH on May 05, 2010, 02:16:15 am
Quote from: BJNY
I'm thinking about getting the 30" PA down the road when it becomes available.

Wondering if this Mini DisplayPort to DisplayPort adapter (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10428&cs_id=1042803&p_id=5714&seq=1&format=2) will connect it to MacBook Pro,
or will Apple's Mini DisplayPort to Dual-Link DVI Adapter (http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB571Z/A) still be necessary?

The Mini DisplayPort -> DisplayPort adapter will work, however I strongly caution against using that particular design since it is *very* fragile and one wrong move will destroy the connector on your Mac. It is much better to get a Mini DisplayPort -> DisplayPort cable (monoprice sells them). The Apple Mini DisplayPort to Dual-Link DVI Adapter will work, but is not necessary since all of the PA series displays have DisplayPort inputs.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: ericstaud on May 05, 2010, 03:15:40 am
Do the SV and Non-SV versions of the new PA series differ only in the added calibrator and software, or is the factory calibration of the SV series more thorough?  The reason I ask is because I already have the SV software for my current LCD2690WUXI and use an EyeOne spectro to calibrate.

Also, the MultiProfiler software is listed under the "technology" section of the SV version of the monitor but not with the standard version.

http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/Product...11-6d39c54f61bd (http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/Product/?product=186bb118-0c70-4c6a-a511-6d39c54f61bd)

http://www.necdisplay.com/MultiProfiler/ (http://www.necdisplay.com/MultiProfiler/)
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Doyle Yoder on May 05, 2010, 07:31:26 am
Quote from: ericstaud
Do the SV and Non-SV versions of the new PA series differ only in the added calibrator and software, or is the factory calibration of the SV series more thorough?  The reason I ask is because I already have the SV software for my current LCD2690WUXI and use an EyeOne spectro to calibrate.

Also, the MultiProfiler software is listed under the "technology" section of the SV version of the monitor but not with the standard version.

http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/Product...11-6d39c54f61bd (http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/Product/?product=186bb118-0c70-4c6a-a511-6d39c54f61bd)

http://www.necdisplay.com/MultiProfiler/ (http://www.necdisplay.com/MultiProfiler/)

That is a good question.

Here is what the current manual for SVII says.
Note: This version of SpectraView II software does not yet support communicating with the display via USB, therefore DDC/CI must be used. A future update to SpectraView II will add this and other features new to the NEC MultiSync PA Series models.

The current version on the NEC web site is SpectraView II 1.1.04 , so apparently a newer version will need to be released to fully support the NEC MultiSync PA Series models even though the the NEC MultiSync PA Series models are listed as supported in the 1.1.04 manual.

Can anybody clear this up?

Doyle
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: WillH on May 05, 2010, 09:25:56 am
Quote from: ericstaud
Do the SV and Non-SV versions of the new PA series differ only in the added calibrator and software, or is the factory calibration of the SV series more thorough?  The reason I ask is because I already have the SV software for my current LCD2690WUXI and use an EyeOne spectro to calibrate.

Also, the MultiProfiler software is listed under the "technology" section of the SV version of the monitor but not with the standard version.

http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/Product...11-6d39c54f61bd (http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/Product/?product=186bb118-0c70-4c6a-a511-6d39c54f61bd)

http://www.necdisplay.com/MultiProfiler/ (http://www.necdisplay.com/MultiProfiler/)

The two are exactly the same. Just the -SV version comes with the software and sensor bundled.

The MultiProfiler software works with both the non-SV and -SV. It needs to be listed on the non-SV page.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: WillH on May 05, 2010, 09:30:32 am
Quote from: Doyle Yoder
That is a good question.

Here is what the current manual for SVII says.
Note: This version of SpectraView II software does not yet support communicating with the display via USB, therefore DDC/CI must be used. A future update to SpectraView II will add this and other features new to the NEC MultiSync PA Series models.

The current version on the NEC web site is SpectraView II 1.1.04 , so apparently a newer version will need to be released to fully support the NEC MultiSync PA Series models even though the the NEC MultiSync PA Series models are listed as supported in the 1.1.04 manual.

Can anybody clear this up?

Doyle

An update will be available in a couple of weeks that adds support for communicating with the display via USB, in addition to the DDC/CI method that is supported in the current version. Adding USB support means it can be used as an alternative to DDC/CI on a couple of Mac models and Mac OS versions that have issues with DDC/CI support.

We will be adding other features unique to the new PA series over the next few months.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Doyle Yoder on May 05, 2010, 12:21:38 pm
Quote from: WillH
An update will be available in a couple of weeks that adds support for communicating with the display via USB, in addition to the DDC/CI method that is supported in the current version. Adding USB support means it can be used as an alternative to DDC/CI on a couple of Mac models and Mac OS versions that have issues with DDC/CI support.

We will be adding other features unique to the new PA series over the next few months.

Thanks for replying here.

Another question. What is the exact difference package wise between the PA241W-BK and the PA241W-BK-SV? Does the SV include a hood? If not is one available?

Doyle
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: RobWalstrom on May 05, 2010, 03:11:11 pm
Quote from: Doyle Yoder
Thanks for replying here.

Another question. What is the exact difference package wise between the PA241W-BK and the PA241W-BK-SV? Does the SV include a hood? If not is one available?

Doyle

Heh, see Will's reply two posts above yours. SV includes the Spectraview II software and calibration sensor. Can't say for sure if there is a hood available, but it would not be bundled with the SV version.

Quote
The two are exactly the same. Just the -SV version comes with the software and sensor bundled.

The MultiProfiler software works with both the non-SV and -SV. It needs to be listed on the non-SV page.

Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: ericstaud on May 05, 2010, 08:34:30 pm
Quote from: WillH
The two are exactly the same. Just the -SV version comes with the software and sensor bundled.

The MultiProfiler software works with both the non-SV and -SV. It needs to be listed on the non-SV page.

Thank you Will.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: pixtweak on May 05, 2010, 09:02:31 pm
Re: Macbook Pro and PA series monitors

"The Apple Mini DisplayPort to Dual-Link DVI Adapter will work, but is not necessary since all of the PA series displays have DisplayPort inputs."  - Will H

Will has this been tested and verified? I assume "work" means that it (mini displayport -> displayport cable) will work the same as using dual link DVI adapter cable, which is 8 bit and not 10 bit. My understanding is that currently Macbook Pros do not allow for 10 bit per channel output. It would be nice to at least go with the less expensive solution, if it is indeed working. Going with a mini displayport -> displayport adapter cable would also be preferable assuming Apple and NVidia come up with new firmware/drivers that allows for 10 bit/30 bit color on the Macbook Pro ASAP.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: WillH on May 06, 2010, 12:57:22 am
Quote from: pixtweak
Re: Macbook Pro and PA series monitors

"The Apple Mini DisplayPort to Dual-Link DVI Adapter will work, but is not necessary since all of the PA series displays have DisplayPort inputs."  - Will H

Will has this been tested and verified? I assume "work" means that it (mini displayport -> displayport cable) will work the same as using dual link DVI adapter cable, which is 8 bit and not 10 bit. My understanding is that currently Macbook Pros do not allow for 10 bit per channel output. It would be nice to at least go with the less expensive solution, if it is indeed working. Going with a mini displayport -> displayport adapter cable would also be preferable assuming Apple and NVidia come up with new firmware/drivers that allows for 10 bit/30 bit color on the Macbook Pro ASAP.


Yes it has been verified using a mini displayport -> displayport cable. This is the least expensive and best solution. The alternative is to use the $99 Apple adapter which has some "issues". Note that 10 bit support must be built into the video card hardware as well. Currently only the FXx800 series cards support 10 bits.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: BJNY on May 06, 2010, 10:12:57 am
WillH,

Thank you for the answers you've given.

Reading the specifications, may I know what quick release stand means?
Does the display portion disconnect from the desk stand quickly?
If yes, which third party VESA brands are compatible?
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: ericstaud on May 06, 2010, 11:19:25 am
Quote from: BJNY
WillH,

Thank you for the answers you've given.

Reading the specifications, may I know what quick release stand means?
Does the display portion disconnect from the desk stand quickly?
If yes, which third party VESA brands are compatible?

If it's like my LCD2690WUXI, then with the flick of a lever you can remove the monitor from the stand.  This reveals the screw holes on the monitor for the 100 x 100mm VESA mount.

....Actually, just looked this up... The PDF instruction manual for the PA series has a pretty clear illustration of removing the monitor stand and the placement of the VESA screw holes...

http://www.necdisplay.com/cms/documents/Us..._UserManual.pdf (http://www.necdisplay.com/cms/documents/UserManuals/PA241W-PA271W_UserManual.pdf)
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: BJNY on May 06, 2010, 11:29:46 am
Thanks for the link to the PDF, Eric.

Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: petervdwerf on May 11, 2010, 06:42:12 pm
Partially thanks to the posts on this forum I bought a PA241W 2 weeks ago. It should be delivered one of these days. I Can't wait!!!!

After reading this, and other forums, like others I was also confused about the whole US/EU SpectraView difference. Even more because I live in the Netherlands meaning I get the EU version. I contacted NEC support in Europe to get some things cleared up. I must say that support responded both quickly as well as helpful and were patient with my nagging questions:), kudos to them!.
I thought I could be helpful to other (potential) owners if I'd share some findings and help other to avoid misunderstandings..

Facts as given by support:
A) In the EU the "normal" Multisync line is sold, and a second, professional line called the SpectraView Reference line.
B  In the EU "SpectraView Reference" is a more expensive model line consisting of highly selected displays and stricter quality criteria. Those PA241W are the hand-picked "cream of the crop" models, Fogra Certified, and come with a hood, a 6 month pixel warranty and the SpectraView Profiler 4 software (which is a NEC version of the BasICColor Display 4 software)
C) In the US only the "normal" Multisync line is sold. (I know the word "normal" is an understatement for these displays, but you know what I mean..)
D) In the US "SpectraView" is a package consisting of a "normal" PA241W Multisync combined with the SpectraView2 software/NEC calibrator kit. This kit can also be had separately in the US.
E) All US/EU PA241W Multisync models are technically IDENTICAL as far as firmware and hardware.
F) The US SpectraView2 software works for ALL US/EU PA241W displays to do full hardware calibration.
BUT!!: The SpectraView2 software is only available to US customers, and even if you manage to get the software as a European, the SV2 software simply is not supported outside the US.
G) The SpectraView Profiler 4 software that comes with the EU SpectraView Reference displays can do full hardware calibration on only the SpectraView Reference models, but not on the Multisync models.

Two assumptions on my side:
-Support said that all US/EU and Multisync/SpectraViewReference displays are technically identical with the same firmware. I ASSUME that an alteration in the SpectraView Reference firmware is made simply to have this type of monitor identify itself as a SpectraView Reference model to the OS for example. Given the situation that the SpectraView Profiler 4 software only does full hardware calibration on the EU SpectraView Reference models, not on the Multisync models, I ASSUME that their software checks if the connected display can be identified as a SV Reference model, and if so, full hw calibration is works with the Profiler 4 software.
-From reading various posts about the x90 series and SpectraView confusion I THINK that the above also applies to the previous x90 series.

Hope this helps.

Peter




Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: AndreaPiaggesi on May 15, 2010, 03:58:17 am
Hi,
I've red the whole thread and I'm planning to buy this monitor because it seems to be the best 24 inch monitor for under 1000 EUR.

I like the SpectraView software and I already own a SV license with a X-Rite iDisplay 2 that I would like to use to make an hardware calibration of the NEC.

I've called the NEC support here in Italy to get some things cleared up like petervdwerf but I'm a little bit confused because they've told me this:

1) In Italy (I assume in EU) there's a different policy than in US so the SpectraView Kit is not available separately.
2) You can only get the "Reference" version of the monitor (PA241W or the 90 series) to get Software + Colorimeter + Hood
3) The PA241W "normal version" have a different hardware than the PA241W "Reference version" so it can't be hardware calibrated!! You can only make a software calibration by using the video card 8bit LUT and the X-Rite software because the "standard version" lacks the necessary hardware to store the profile.
4) It seems that the "Reference version" have more options in the OSD to make an hardware calibration of the white point, that it's not possible on the standard PA241W package.

I'm planning to buy this monitor from a German shop that have better prices but I would like to be sure that my SpectraView software and X-Rite colorimeter will work flawlessly with it.

Thanks!!!
Andrea
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: petervdwerf on May 15, 2010, 09:44:58 am
Hello Andrea,

We appear to have had the same confusion, to maybe I can clearify your statements a bit more:

Regarding points 1) & 2):
These are correct, please see my post in which the differences in SpectraView packages/model lines for the US and EU markets are described.

Regarding point 3) & 4)
At first I was told the same thing.. Which only raised more questions on my side. But after further questioning NEC support it turns out that these statements are based on using SpectraView Profiler 4 software. Which makes sense of course, simply because NEC EU only supports that software. It's a marketing thing, they want to sell more SpectraView Refencence models and software.
It's very important to understand that the software in the US (SpectraView2) and EU (SpectraView Profiler 4) is different.

-The EU SpectraView Profiler 4 software is only available in combination with the Reference models and only allows hardware calibration on those Reference models (I assume by checking if a SpectraView Profiler software checks if a Reference model is connected)
-The US SpectaView2 software allows hardware calibration on ALL!! EU/US Multisync/Reference models, nothing in the firmware of either model is enabled/disabled to have more/less functions I was told.
-3rd Party software (like the stock X-Rite software) can not(!) do hardware calibration on either the Multisync or the SpectraView Reference software, because it cannot talk to the PA241W hardware to save the adjusted settings.

If you want to benefit from hardware calibration in the EU you have 2 choices:
1) The "official" way is you get the SpectraView Reference241. Pay ~1300euro and you get the a highly selected display, hood, extra warranty and the apprpriate SpectraView Profiler 4 software to hardware calibrate your display.
2) The "creative" way. Pay ~1000euro to get a Multisync241. The pay ~320euro (incl shipping) to get the US SpectraView kit
through an eg America webshop or an American relative..(or just the SpectraView2 software for ~120euro)

In both cases you pay ~1300euros to be able to hardware calibrate your display.
I've allready ordered a Multisync for about 1000euro. The Reference wasn't available yet and I expected the SpectraView Reference241 to be more expensive. Had I known the 'difference' would be ~300euro. I probably would have waited... Because now I still need the proper software, and in the end I pay more or less the same, but then I would have had the higher quality Reference model...

Another important issue is the use of your X-Rite i1 Display2, which is not fully suitable for wide gamut. I have the same sensor (the stock one, not the NEC custom) and asked NEC US support if this would give my any issues calibrating the PA241W in combination with the SpectraView2 software. Their first response is that the stock X-Rite is not advised because of the wide gamut of the NEC displays. You could get slightly incorrect wite point results. Using the sRGB calibration you should be fine I was told.

As various sources on the web confirm with for instance the 2690, the white point can be off by about 500K, so if you know this, you can work around it by eg choosing a different target. But to be completely sure, and safe yourself the hassle, it's better to get the NEC custom puck (again, officially only for the US.... ) or the Spyder3, which also has wide gamut support. (note that some very early produced Spyder3 models had issues with wide gamut, but current models are compatible)

regards,
Peter

edit: added more specific remark about the i1 Display2 not being optimized for wide gamut.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: AndreaPiaggesi on May 16, 2010, 05:49:34 pm
Thanks for the reply and for all the informations.

I'm happy to hear that the monitor doesn't have any hardware difference, but I'm thinking about the NEC colorimeter.....I don't know if the NEC custom calibrated sensor will worth the price because I already have the i1Display 2 that should support wide gamut display so I would like to use it.

From the Spectraview FAQ

http://www.necdisplay.com/supportcenter/mo...ectraview2/faq/ (http://www.necdisplay.com/supportcenter/monitors/spectraview2/faq/)

Quote
QUESTION: What is the difference between the color sensor used in the SVII-KIT and the new SVII-PRO-KIT?
ANSWER: The new SVII-PRO-KIT includes the MDSVSENSOR2, an NEC branded X-Rite iOne Display V2 color sensor that is custom calibrated for increased measurement accuracy with our wide color gamut displays such as the LCD2690WUXi, LCD2690WUXi2, LCD3090WQXi, and P221W. It is backward compatible with standard color gamut displays. The SVII-KIT included an NEC branded X-Rite iOne Display V2 but did not have any custom calibration.

So the NEC sensor is better but the i1Display 2 should give acceptable results.
Thanks!!
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: JeffKohn on May 16, 2010, 06:02:35 pm
Quote
...I already have the i1Display 2 that should support wide gamut display so I would like to use it.
Actually the i1Display 2 is not optimal for wide-gamut displays. It will work, but it cannot measure the full gamut of these displays; so the resulting profile will have a smaller gamut than if you used the SVII-Pro colorimeter, a Spyder3, or a spectro.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on May 16, 2010, 06:02:40 pm
Quote from: AndreaPiaggesi
So the NEC sensor is better but the i1Display 2 should give acceptable results.
Thanks!!

That depends what results are acceptable for you - standard i1d2 may calibrate the white point in a wrong way. The good news is that PA241W is factory calibrated, so when you set the white point to 6500K using OSD controls or Multiprofiler, you get a very good result. In case you'll encounter some problems while calibrating the white point with i1d2 and SVII, you can measure the chromatic coordinates of the factory preset 6500K white, and use it as a calibration target.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: digitaldog on May 16, 2010, 07:23:19 pm
Quote from: Czornyj
That depends what results are acceptable for you - standard i1d2 may calibrate the white point in a wrong way.

In my case, it was off about 500K compared to the target based on trying the same with an EyeOne Pro. But its not a big deal because these are just numbers and ultimately, one often has to alter the values to produce a visual match. You just end up adjusting the values to taste.

Yes, the i1 with mated filters is preferable. If a user has the budget, go for it. If not, the i1-D2 will do the job with a bit of a fudge factor.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: AndreaPiaggesi on May 17, 2010, 06:35:01 pm
Quote from: JeffKohn
Actually the i1Display 2 is not optimal for wide-gamut displays. It will work, but it cannot measure the full gamut of these displays; so the resulting profile will have a smaller gamut than if you used the SVII-Pro colorimeter, a Spyder3, or a spectro.

Hi,
please sorry for the delay.

It's new to me, usually the i1Display 2 is suggested for wide gamut displays, maybe I'm wrong but I've red that it's the same hardware of the Lacie Blue Eye and all the TFT central reviews are all made with this colorimeter.

Forget the NEC monitor, which is the best colorimeter for a wide gamut displays (Eizo, Dell or something like)?

Thanks digitaldog & Czornyj for the suggestion regarding the calibration, I'm thinking to change the i1Display2 with the NEC colorimeter but it's very expensive because I have to get it from USA or I can wait for the 241 reference version but I don't think it'll be cheaper than EUR 1500 (actually the PA241W is available for 900 EUR)!!!

Thanks!!
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: digitaldog on May 17, 2010, 06:53:45 pm
Quote from: AndreaPiaggesi
It's new to me, usually the i1Display 2 is suggested for wide gamut displays, maybe I'm wrong but I've red that it's the same hardware of the Lacie Blue Eye and all the TFT central reviews are all made with this colorimeter.

Suggested as an ideal colorimeter by whom? Its not ideal. Its not expecting a wide gamut display. It will work as noted but its not ideal assuming you are in the market for an instrument.

Quote
Forget the NEC monitor, which is the best colorimeter for a wide gamut displays (Eizo, Dell or something like)?

Best would be one specially tuned filter wise for the display. I haven’t seen anything like this since the Sony Artisan. 2nd best would be one tuned to expect a wide gamut display, which is what NEC has done.

Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on May 17, 2010, 06:57:17 pm
Quote from: AndreaPiaggesi
Forget the NEC monitor, which is the best colorimeter for a wide gamut displays (Eizo, Dell or something like)?

Quato Silver Haze is the only colorimeter I'd recommend for a wide gamut display - Quato profiler has standard correction tables for various backlight spectra, and it's combined with the reliable X-Rite DTP 94B colorimeter. It's not perfect but it's better than nothing.

The other option would be X-Rite ColorMunki spectrophotometer and ArgyllCMS profiler (in case of 10-12bit LUT displays).
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: petervdwerf on May 17, 2010, 08:02:58 pm
Quote from: AndreaPiaggesi
It's new to me, usually the i1Display 2 is suggested for wide gamut displays, maybe I'm wrong but I've red that it's the same hardware of the Lacie Blue Eye and all the TFT central reviews are all made with this colorimeter.
Andrea, I'm afraid these are two different things. The i1 Display2 is still not meant for wide gamut measuring, XRite support will confirm this if you contact them. The Lacie Blue Eye Pro indeed has the same stock sensor as the i1 Display2, just another paint job. The fact that the Lacie package is used by TFTcentral (and most other reviews sites) does not change the capabilities of it's sensor. A major reason for reviews sites to use this package is because the Lacie software offers detailed dE reporting fuctions. (http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/lacie_blue-eye.htm)

Quote
Forget the NEC monitor, which is the best colorimeter for a wide gamut displays (Eizo, Dell or something like)?

I've contacted NEC US support about this issue. For wide gamut measuting their advise was to get the NEC sensor or the Spyder3. The Spyder3 express can be had for about 90euro and is fully compatible with the SpectraView2 software and wide gamut displays (whether it's a Dell/Eizo/NEC etc..).
As Czornyj mentioned in the previous post, there are other spectrophotometer options like the Munki, those packages have more/other capablities then the i1/Spyder colorimeters and are in a different price class.

If you want the NEC sensor I suggest you sell your i1 Display2 and get the NEC sensor online. I estimate this upgrade will cost you about 70euro... That's a good deal and way cheaper then a spectrophotometer.
Title: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: BJNY on June 02, 2010, 09:07:29 am
Quote from: WillH
The Mini DisplayPort -> DisplayPort adapter will work, however I strongly caution against using that particular design since it is *very* fragile and one wrong move will destroy the connector on your Mac. It is much better to get a Mini DisplayPort -> DisplayPort cable (monoprice sells them). The Apple Mini DisplayPort to Dual-Link DVI Adapter will work, but is not necessary since all of the PA series displays have DisplayPort inputs.

Thanks Will.

Can PA series display output from Canon Mini-HDMI port?

Are there such cables: Male Mini-HDMI to DisplayPort?
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: sicofante on August 14, 2010, 02:32:07 pm
I'm new to this forum, so let me say hello everyone!

I'm in Spain and I sell workstations for the computer animation industry. I'm currently researching the PA241 for my customers and a critical point is hardware calibration.

Maybe I'm thick, but after reading this thread twice, I still can't completely understand the situation. It seems the PA241 has identical hardware worldwide, so the American SVII software will work indeed on the European "plain" PA241W models as well, right?

I'm OK buying downloadable software from the US, but not so fine with importing goods that NEC doesn't support in Europe, like their custom Eye One Display 2 puck.

So, summing it all up, am I good to go with buying the PA241W and a compatible colorimeter like the Spyder 3 Express, both in Europe, and then go and buy (download) the SVII software from the NEC USA site?
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: gromit on August 14, 2010, 08:00:11 pm
Maybe I'm thick, but after reading this thread twice, I still can't completely understand the situation. It seems the PA241 has identical hardware worldwide, so the American SVII software will work indeed on the European "plain" PA241W models as well, right?

My understanding is that you can hardware calibrate any version with the SpectraView II software, but SpectraView Profiler will only work with the SpectraView Reference version. You can of course use any software to just profile.

I recently bought a SpectraView Reference PA271W and spent some time playing around with different calibration/profiling options and came to the conclusion that most people are probably better off just using NEC's MultiProfiler software. This enables you to dial in any calibration settings and it activates a corresponding (matrix) profile on your system. It's a bit buggy still but this I think is the future of monitor calibration. The problem is that current consumer-level colorimeters just aren't to be relied upon. I got maybe the best results with using MultiProfiler for the calibration and then using SpectraView Profiler to profile only with a Samsung branded i1 Display 2 but the differences were negligible compared to those generated by MultiProfiler alone. I also used a Spyder 3 but the shadows weren't clean, though the reported gamut was larger. Which to trust? My understanding is that SpectraView II just generates matrix profiles so I don't see the benefit in using it. Final brightness, black level and whitepoint are going to be set by eye anyway.

The new NEC models look to be outstanding monitors ... if you get a good one.

NB. I edited out the parenthesis about uniformity with my PA271W as discussions with the supplier are ongoing. I don't think the model should be tarnished by my sole experience with what is increasingly looking like rough handling in shipping.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: WombatHorror on August 15, 2010, 12:10:33 am
My understanding is that you can hardware calibrate any version with the SpectraView II software, but SpectraView Profiler will only work with the SpectraView Reference version. You can of course use any software to just profile.

I recently bought a SpectraView Reference PA271W (which is going back because of poor uniformity) and spent some time playing around with different calibration/profiling options and came to the conclusion that most people are probably better off just using NEC's MultiProfiler software. This enables you to dial in any calibration settings and it activates a corresponding (matrix) profile on your system. It's a bit buggy still but this I think is the future of monitor calibration. The problem is that current consumer-level colorimeters just aren't to be relied upon. I got maybe the best results with using MultiProfiler for the calibration and then using SpectraView Profiler to profile only with a Samsung branded i1 Display 2 but the differences were negligible compared to those generated by MultiProfiler alone. I also used a Spyder 3 but the shadows weren't clean, though the reported gamut was larger. Which to trust? My understanding is that SpectraView II just generates matrix profiles so I don't see the benefit in using it. Final brightness, black level and whitepoint are going to set by eye anyway.

The new NEC models look to be outstanding monitors ... if you get a good one.

Well I don't know about Spectraview profiler since they don't make it available in the US but SV II, over here at least, still has uses. First, the NEC puck won't give a proper reading outside of SV II so you need it to measure patches for adjusting settings in MultiProfiler. Multiprofiler doesn't let you measure anything itself. So you can use SV II to take measurements and then alter white point in MP or say sRGB primary locations.

And for photo editing you want to use native gamut and you need to make a profile of that which MP can't do so over here you need SV II to do that.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: gromit on August 15, 2010, 01:13:08 am
And for photo editing you want to use native gamut and you need to make a profile of that which MP can't do so over here you need SV II to do that.

MultiProfiler will generate a profile for native gamut (page 25 of the manual). If you've got more confidence in using a puck and it delivers better results, use it.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Rhossydd on August 15, 2010, 02:22:30 am
I'm OK buying downloadable software from the US,
Not quite that simple though. You need a credit/debit card with a US address to be able to pay for it.

I remain to be convinced that paying the extra 25% in the EU for a SV reference model of these monitors is really worth it.
I'll be very interested to read anyone's experience of trying to use Spectraview 4 software (aka Basicolor 4.1.7) on an EU Multisync PA2xx-w model. At the moment I've got an older(dying) SV 1980 and a MS1980 and the software works on both, so I'm hopeful to get it working with the PA series.

Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: probep on August 15, 2010, 03:43:26 am
Not quite that simple though. You need a credit/debit card with a US address to be able to pay for it.
Everyone can buy any goods from US via brokers. There are some
http://www.oneusaaddress.com/
http://www.anythingfromamerica.com/

I've bought SVII's and NEC colorimeters via such broker.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on August 15, 2010, 07:48:18 am
I remain to be convinced that paying the extra 25% in the EU for a SV reference model of these monitors is really worth it.
I'll be very interested to read anyone's experience of trying to use Spectraview 4 software (aka Basicolor 4.1.7) on an EU Multisync PA2xx-w model. At the moment I've got an older(dying) SV 1980 and a MS1980 and the software works on both, so I'm hopeful to get it working with the PA series.
Regular PA can't be hardware calibrated via basICColor/Spectraview - it's blocked in the the firmware. In the past there were tricks to unlock it in x80 and in early x90 models, but now NEC made things more complicated and AFAIK it can't be done in a simple way (or at least the method remains undiscovered), so the US Spectraview II software is the only way to make it.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Rhossydd on August 15, 2010, 01:54:44 pm
Everyone can buy any goods from US via brokers.

Thanks for that. I've never come across these services before.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: WombatHorror on August 16, 2010, 12:59:57 am
MultiProfiler will generate a profile for native gamut (page 25 of the manual). If you've got more confidence in using a puck and it delivers better results, use it.

oops that is correct

(which also brings one to the point that if you do alter the sRGB locations for a MP mode then you should make sure that color-managed stuff such as firefox doesn't use the profile from MP otherwise it see the profile listing shifted sRGB primaries when they are, at least according to probe, not actually shifted)
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: TimBarker on August 16, 2010, 07:23:53 am

The new NEC models look to be outstanding monitors ... if you get a good one.

NB. I edited out the parenthesis about uniformity with my PA271W as discussions with the supplier are ongoing. I don't think the model should be tarnished by my sole experience with what is increasingly looking like rough handling in shipping.

explain...  I'm in the market for a new screen and its between the NEC PA271W and Eizo CG243W.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on August 16, 2010, 07:36:50 am
explain...  I'm in the market for a new screen and its between the NEC PA271W and Eizo CG243W.

There were some quality issues with early NEC x90 series displays, but the new PA seem to be playing in a different league. If I had to choose between CG243W and PA271W I wouldn't even hesitate - the PA271W with it's reasonable size and huge 2540x1440px resolution is much more convinient than 24" Eizo, and quality-wise it's at least as good as CG (if not even better)
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: TimBarker on August 16, 2010, 08:23:56 am
Thanks, I'm in the market but won't buy until I see/handle one.  For some reason nobody in Sydney seems to sell NEC with the nearest obvious retailer in Melbourne whilst Eizo couldn't be more helpful.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: gromit on August 16, 2010, 05:26:56 pm
explain...  I'm in the market for a new screen and its between the NEC PA271W and Eizo CG243W.

What attracted me to the PA271W over the CG243W (and PA241W) is its finer dot pitch resulting in smoother display of images. The MultiProfiler facility as it turns out is a real bonus. The CG243W is probably a better size monitor, unless you're mainly working on panos or need to do side-by-side comparisons (which I rarely do). Eizo's gamma 2.2 factory calibration is useless to me as I use L*. They both have CCFL backlights and are probably last in line with this clunker technology. The Quato 240 LED is also worth considering but more expensive still ... I haven't seen one.

I have some issues with uniformity on my PA271W, exacerbated by the fact that I drive mine at the bottom end of the luminance range. Investigations are ongoing as to whether it is or isn't in spec, was affected by rough handing in shipping etc.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Doyle Yoder on August 16, 2010, 06:33:09 pm
On the PA series monitors is there any difference between using an optional USB connection to the display for communicating, instead of using DDC/CI when it is supported by the video card?

Doyle
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: WombatHorror on August 17, 2010, 02:42:28 am
What attracted me to the PA271W over the CG243W (and PA241W) is its finer dot pitch resulting in smoother display of images. The MultiProfiler facility as it turns out is a real bonus. The CG243W is probably a better size monitor, unless you're mainly working on panos or need to do side-by-side comparisons (which I rarely do). Eizo's gamma 2.2 factory calibration is useless to me as I use L*. They both have CCFL backlights and are probably last in line with this clunker technology. The Quato 240 LED is also worth considering but more expensive still ... I haven't seen one.

I have some issues with uniformity on my PA271W, exacerbated by the fact that I drive mine at the bottom end of the luminance range. Investigations are ongoing as to whether it is or isn't in spec, was affected by rough handing in shipping etc.

are you talking back light leakage?

clouding on 10-35% level solid color screens?

tinting differences?

luminance differences?

0-10% level IPS white glow?
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: WombatHorror on August 17, 2010, 02:43:13 am
On the PA series monitors is there any difference between using an optional USB connection to the display for communicating, instead of using DDC/CI when it is supported by the video card?

Doyle

I don't think so. I'm mostly using the USB.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: sicofante on August 17, 2010, 03:54:09 am
Everyone can buy any goods from US via brokers. There are some
http://www.oneusaaddress.com/
http://www.anythingfromamerica.com/

I've bought SVII's and NEC colorimeters via such broker.
Will you get a Worldwide warranty if you purchase the full kit? If not, how do you handle the American warranty from Europe?
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: gromit on August 17, 2010, 04:29:21 am
luminance differences?

Side to side luminance difference. It's not bad but doesn't tally with the SpectraView certification report. Anyway, it's going to be looked at. In all other respects it's a killer monitor ... the best I've owned.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: probep on August 17, 2010, 05:18:01 am
Will you get a Worldwide warranty if you purchase the full kit?
No, of course.
Quote
If not, how do you handle the American warranty from Europe?
It depends on the broker. Each broker has its own policy.
For example http://www.westernbid.com/english_pr.htm
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: sicofante on August 17, 2010, 07:44:00 am
No, of course.
Well, it wouldn't be so rare. There are many manufacturers who offer world wide warranty on all of their products, and there are also MACK warranties. So I guess that's what we Europeans would need to find: some retailer willing to ship the SVII-PRO-KIT to Europe with a MACK warranty. The quest begins! :)

Quote
It depends on the broker. Each broker has its own policy.
For example http://www.westernbid.com/english_pr.htm
Thanks, but that's not nearly enough. I expect any such business to provide some warranty regarding their shipping or a DOA status, but that wasn't my point.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: TimBarker on August 17, 2010, 08:14:34 am
What attracted me to the PA271W over the CG243W (and PA241W) is its finer dot pitch resulting in smoother display of images. The MultiProfiler facility as it turns out is a real bonus. The CG243W is probably a better size monitor, unless you're mainly working on panos or need to do side-by-side comparisons (which I rarely do). Eizo's gamma 2.2 factory calibration is useless to me as I use L*. They both have CCFL backlights and are probably last in line with this clunker technology. The Quato 240 LED is also worth considering but more expensive still ... I haven't seen one.

I have some issues with uniformity on my PA271W, exacerbated by the fact that I drive mine at the bottom end of the luminance range. Investigations are ongoing as to whether it is or isn't in spec, was affected by rough handing in shipping etc.

thanks, understand.  It was these issues I was interested in, are NEC consistent or are you paying more for consistentcy with the Eizo.  Interestingly the demo I had with the CG241 & CG243 showed the 243 to have some uniformity issues on plain greys but it was only when you saw it on a completely plain grey screen that it was noticeable.  I was assured that the screen would be a replacement issue as the 241 appeared perfectly uniform (to my eyes).
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: WombatHorror on August 17, 2010, 11:10:35 pm
Side to side luminance difference. It's not bad but doesn't tally with the SpectraView certification report. Anyway, it's going to be looked at. In all other respects it's a killer monitor ... the best I've owned.

I take you got one of the special European spectraview quality certified ones then?

Anyway is the side to side luminance difference still bothersome even with Comp on say level 4?

I don't really see any that appear to test much better on prad.de compared to mine at comp 4. The numbers I measured seemed, at comp 4, a lot more even for luminance than most, close ballpark to the EIzo Coloredge data they took and noticeably better than their Eizo flexscan measurements.

First copy had a horrible backlight bleed upper left, it seemed like it was just up along the edge but it actually subtly spread across the entire screen and it measured noticeably higher black points and lower contrast ratios. Second had more side to side brightness differences though. I also peeked at a third, less side to side when at comp 0-2 but not quite as even at comp 4 and it had some faint cloud sort of bands when looking at solid colors around 15-40% brightness so overall I decided the second copy was the best. Without the nasty bleed across the screen that killed the black levels the first copy would've been best, no clouds and quite even looking even by comp 1.

Second one has a trace of upper left backlight bleed but it's pretty faint and doesn't wash out black levels, they measure at least as good as the numbers I see on any test sites. On comp 4 my screen looks very even whether I display a solid screen of 40%, 80% or 100% gray/white. It would be nicer if it didn't have the side to side at lower comp levels, but even by level 3 it's already better than any monitor without a compensation function and at level 0 it's not really any worse than any typical run of the mill monitor.


Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: WombatHorror on August 17, 2010, 11:11:55 pm
Well, it wouldn't be so rare. There are many manufacturers who offer world wide warranty on all of their products, and there are also MACK warranties. So I guess that's what we Europeans would need to find: some retailer willing to ship the SVII-PRO-KIT to Europe with a MACK warranty. The quest begins! :)
Thanks, but that's not nearly enough. I expect any such business to provide some warranty regarding their shipping or a DOA status, but that wasn't my point.

Why not just get the regular version of the monitor in Europe and then order just the probe+software kit through the broker?
The monitor is where the warranty really matters.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: sicofante on August 18, 2010, 05:49:05 am
Why not just get the regular version of the monitor in Europe and then order just the probe+software kit through the broker?
The monitor is where the warranty really matters.
Of course I'm getting the monitor in Europe. I don't understand why it's OK to buy the probe without a warranty (???).
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: WombatHorror on August 18, 2010, 03:24:42 pm
Of course I'm getting the monitor in Europe. I don't understand why it's OK to buy the probe without a warranty (???).

When is the last time you've heard of a probe breaking within the first year?
I mean I can hardly guarantee it won't happen, but I believe it to be a very, very rare occurrence.

Even in the extremely unlikely case it did break within a year and you had to buy a new one you'd still be out less than the European Spectraview price.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: nilo on August 18, 2010, 03:46:49 pm
When is the last time you've heard of a probe breaking within the first year?
I mean I can hardly guarantee it won't happen, but I believe it to be a very, very rare occurrence.

Even in the extremely unlikely case it did break within a year and you had to buy a new one you'd still be out less than the European Spectraview price.


That's exactly what I did, a European PA with SVII kit from B&H, where you don't need any broker for direct cheap and quick UPS worldwide saver delivery. BTW all the probes I own, are from there. None had any issue till now, it's just that the standard i1D2 does not work for wide gamut monitors at all, but that's not under warranty.

regards
nino
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: nilo on August 18, 2010, 03:55:21 pm
That's exactly what I did, a European PA with SVII kit from B&H, where you don't need any broker for direct cheap and quick UPS worldwide saver delivery. BTW all the probes I own, are from there. None had any issue till now, it's just that the standard i1D2 does not work for wide gamut monitors at all, but that's not under warranty.

regards
nino

there is one thing I forgot to mention: I am not located in Europe either! They don't sell the new NEC models everywhere yet, and I wanted the latest and best, so I just brought it over by plane. And even when they do sell them here eventually, they sell them with astronomical and ridiculous margins (For some companies up to four times US prices!).
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: StevenWu on October 14, 2010, 03:12:37 pm
Just curious what happened with your PA271w?  I just got the same monitor and I'm nothing some backlight bleeding in the top right (not exactly as the corner but 2-3 inches off of it toward the middle).  Just to be clear, it is the top right if I am facing the monitor.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: gromit on October 15, 2010, 04:10:45 am
Just curious what happened with your PA271w?

I received a replacement PA271W with good luminance uniformity, but just a touch of a cyan caste in the bottom left corner, occasionally noticeable in light areas. This is probably the best that can be expected from such a wide screen with CCFL backlight. Note that I paid extra for the Spectraview Reference to ensure I got a good unit.

Further to my comments above, I'm actually finding the extra width quite useful for comparing images/views side by side.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: PJAMedia on November 02, 2010, 10:55:22 am
That's exactly what I did, a European PA with SVII kit from B&H, where you don't need any broker for direct cheap and quick UPS worldwide saver delivery. BTW all the probes I own, are from there. None had any issue till now, it's just that the standard i1D2 does not work for wide gamut monitors at all, but that's not under warranty.

regards
nino

I am looking at buying the European MultiSync (non-SV) version of the PA271W. I have SVII software with license from the states (and just downloaded the latest update for this), but wondering which calibrator to use. Wondering if in fact I'd be better off getting the ColorMunki device instead of the NEC (modified i1D2) colorimeter from the States, as this does printer profiling also. Price is also comparable when I add delivery and import tax etc. Just wondered if anyone had experience of using the CM device with PA271W/SVII ??

Thanks, Paul A
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on November 02, 2010, 11:29:24 am
Just wondered if anyone had experience of using the CM device with PA271W/SVII ??
CM works flawlessly with SVII and I highly recommend it.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: PJAMedia on November 03, 2010, 05:15:48 am
CM works flawlessly with SVII and I highly recommend it.

Thanks for the reply - can I just confirm that you are using the CM with SVII for the PA271W (wide-gamut, 10bit) monitor?

Just want to be doubly sure this is a good combo before I go splash out the £300 on the CM here in the UK.

Thanks again, Paul
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: TimBarker on November 03, 2010, 06:23:41 am
also using (or more correctly learning to use) the CM-PA271 combination with SVII.  No complaints so far although I have heard that the CM isn't the most accurate with off-white papers when doing printer profiles though I haven't yet had the same problem.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on November 03, 2010, 10:02:22 am
Thanks for the reply - can I just confirm that you are using the CM with SVII for the PA271W (wide-gamut, 10bit) monitor?

Just want to be doubly sure this is a good combo before I go splash out the £300 on the CM here in the UK.

Thanks again, Paul

Yep - I'm using my private i1pro, but I've tested few samples of CM on PA & SV Reference 241, PA & SV Reference 271 and so on. It works just like my i1pro spectro, and there's virtually no difference in profiles and validation results.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 07, 2010, 08:03:26 pm
Regular PA can't be hardware calibrated via basICColor/Spectraview - it's blocked in the the firmware. In the past there were tricks to unlock it in x80 and in early x90 models, but now NEC made things more complicated and AFAIK it can't be done in a simple way (or at least the method remains undiscovered), so the US Spectraview II software is the only way to make it.

I bought a PA271W - probably the first one to arrive in Toronto. The colorimeter which comes with it is the NEC version of the i1 Display 2, which has been specially adapted for use with this model display. I was not satisfied with Spectraview II because it only makes matrix profiles; while the profile validation results weren't bad, I felt that one could do better, perhaps with LUT profiles which use many more data points. Therefore after checking with Karl Koch whether BasicColor would work on this US version of the display, I bought, installed and used BasicColor 4.1.22 as the profiling software and NEC's colorimeter as the profiling hardware. I am pleased to report that this combination of software and hardware works seamlessly with the US version of the PA271W, and the validation results of the profiling were truly very good. 
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on November 08, 2010, 04:24:56 am
Personally I'm a big fan of Karl Koch and basICColor, but in this case I'm not sure if it's such a good idea.
1) Custom NEC sensor has a built-in correction matrix, but it may be enabled only by Spectraview II software
2) I'm not sure whether - in case of a PA271W, that is perfectly linearised via internal 14(16)bit 3DLUT - a LUT profile can provide better results than matrix profile
3) basICColor display 4 calibrates the NEC display internally only when it's identified as Spectraview Reference - in other case the "Hardware calibration (monitor LUTs)" option is unavailable, and only "Combined hard- and software calibration" method can be selected. So the question is - can you really switch on the "Hardware calibration (monitor LUTs)" method in basICColor display settings?

As for SVII profile validation:
1) What was the validation method you're referring to?
2) Did you enable "Calibration Priority: best grayscale tracking", "Calibration and Profile steps: 52(Highest quality)" and "Extend luminance stabilization times"  modes in SVII Preferences?
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 08, 2010, 08:05:03 am
Personally I'm a big fan of Karl Koch and basICColor, but in this case I'm not sure if it's such a good idea.
1) Custom NEC sensor has a built-in correction matrix, but it may be enabled only by Spectraview II software
2) I'm not sure whether - in case of a PA271W, that is perfectly linearised via internal 14(16)bit 3DLUT - a LUT profile can provide better results than matrix profile
3) basICColor display 4 calibrates the NEC display internally only when it's identified as Spectraview Reference - in other case the "Hardware calibration (monitor LUTs)" option is unavailable, and only "Combined hard- and software calibration" method can be selected. So the question is - can you really switch on the "Hardware calibration (monitor LUTs)" method in basICColor display settings?

As for SVII profile validation:
1) What was the validation method you're referring to?
2) Did you enable "Calibration Priority: best grayscale tracking", "Calibration and Profile steps: 52(Highest quality)" and "Extend luminance stabilization times"  modes in SVII Preferences?

,,,,,,"not sure", "may-be"; do you own this set-up and have you tested it yourself? I do and I have and it works. And how do you know a PA271W is necessarily perfectly linearized? I have been presented with evidence that mine is not bad but not perfect. On what authority does your observation #3 come from? Someone told you this, or you actually tried it and in your set-up it failed? In my environment, the hardware calibration option is available and that is what I used, and that is what the software reported I used: "Hardware calibration (Monitor LUT)". And yes when I used SVII I had all the same settings you mention; validation is the results given by the software's own validation algorithm; this has obvious limitations, so it can be supplemented using BabelColor's PatchTool with independent suites of test patches and calculating algorithms - I have all that stuff installed and I've used in the past for diagnostics on my previous system which was causing me some problems, but in the final analysis I didn't need to bother this time, because I got the extent of improvement I wanted using BasicColor.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on November 08, 2010, 10:04:11 am
I'm never sure of anything about color management ;)

Thanks for the answer, that's very interesting - seems like NEC displays for US market identify themselves as SV's. Could you please check your model's name in last tag of advanced menu?

When you're validating the SV II profile with PT and NEC sensor the measurement may vary, because SVII uses internal custom correction matrices of the sensor while PT uses generic X-Rite correction matrices.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 08, 2010, 10:49:27 am
The model stated in the info tag is PA271W. The serial number of my unit ends with "UA". This, however is not a relevant factor. The monitors sold in North America and in Europe have identical hardware. The only differences are "certification", hood, profiling software, inclusion or exclusion of colorimeter and price.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on November 08, 2010, 11:33:31 am
The monitors sold in North America and in Europe have identical hardware.
The hardware is identical, but the firmware must be different. The basICColor's "Hardware Calibration (LUTs)" method is grayed out, it simply doesn't work with european NECs. And there's no PA271W on the official "Hardware Support List basICColor display 4.1.22"...
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Mark D Segal on November 08, 2010, 11:41:04 am
Whether or not it is stated on a list, if it works it works, and at least here it does. For whatever reason the regular commercial version of BasicColor 4.1.22 works on the North American model but not on the European model, at least we know that both displays can be calibrated and profiled at the hardware LUT level with on or the other of the BasicColor Display versions. 
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Chris_Brown on November 19, 2010, 07:28:53 pm
I just received my PA271w with Spectraview hardware/software. It replaces my last, trusty Sony Artisan. It's connected to a MacPro with a dedicated nVidia GeForce GT 120 card via DVI (10-bit display isn't ready for prime time on yet).

My initial reaction is positive. It produces a very clear image. The push-button settings for colorspaces is too easy, making it hard for me to believe that it's accurate.

Photographs of vividly colored objects finally get their color appropriately crushed when soft-proofing. What a relief as most of my work ends up in CMYK. Before, with the Artisan, I'd see the difference but the color/tonal change wasn't nearly as dramatic as it should have been.

As an excuse to sip a few beers, I used both my Spyder 3 and the modified i1 puck that came with the monitor for a little fun. The difference is very apparent. The profile created by the Spyder produces a warmer gray than that of the i1 puck. Both color plots seem to be about the same area/volume. See attached. The colored area is the profile, the yellow triangle is the Adobe 1998 colorspace. The "x" in the middle is the white point, and in both cases they mate perfectly with the white point of Adobe '98 RGB. The Spectraview software is one of the nicest profiling programs I've used.

While flipping through several dozen images, shadow detail and highlight separation seem very nice. Contrast is definitely higher than the Artisan. The jury's still out until I get a few projects proofed by clients' prepress departments, and I see the stuff in print, but so far I'm liking this monitor package.

Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Enchanter on January 03, 2011, 04:49:37 am
I'm considering buying the PA241W from B&H but note that their price for the monitor PA241W-BK-SV with the bundled Spectraview II package is more expensive ($1240) than the PA241W-BK and NEC Color Sensor and SpectraView II bought separately ($799.95 plus $277.09 = $1077.44). I don't know if this is because of a special promo deal on the basic monitor, but the obvious thing to do is to buy the items separately and ship in the same order. Unless someone could give me reason why I shouldn't do this.

However, I haven't quite decided whether to get the PA241W or the PA271W. I see that the aspect ratio is 16:10 on the PA241W and 16:9 on the PA271W. The difference in height between both monitors is only about 0.4" but of course the PA271W is 3.1" longer and the resolution greater.

My intended use of the monitor is for photographic processing and Internet browsing only. No gaming, playing movies etc.

Any help on making a final choice between the two sizes would be appreciated. Thanks.

Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Rhossydd on January 03, 2011, 08:16:47 am
The basICColor's "Hardware Calibration (LUTs)" method is grayed out, it simply doesn't work with european NECs.
Not greyed out here with my PA271.

Paul in the UK
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: gromit on January 03, 2011, 03:27:13 pm
I'm considering buying the PA241W from B&H but note that their price for the monitor PA241W-BK-SV with the bundled Spectraview II package is more expensive ($1240) than the PA241W-BK and NEC Color Sensor and SpectraView II bought separately ($799.95 plus $277.09 = $1077.44). I don't know if this is because of a special promo deal on the basic monitor, but the obvious thing to do is to buy the items separately and ship in the same order. Unless someone could give me reason why I shouldn't do this.

However, I haven't quite decided whether to get the PA241W or the PA271W. I see that the aspect ratio is 16:10 on the PA241W and 16:9 on the PA271W. The difference in height between both monitors is only about 0.4" but of course the PA271W is 3.1" longer and the resolution greater.

The SV package is aimed at novices who aren't capable of making adjustments by eye (it looks too warm so I'll up the colour temperature, it's too contrasty so I'll change the luminance/blackpoint). These monitors work great with MultiProfiler which is a free download. Save your money and go with the PA271W instead which has finer dot pitch ... more important than the imagined differences you get with the SV package over MultiProfiler.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Enchanter on January 03, 2011, 03:42:33 pm
Thanks gromit. I'll definitely get the PA271W and as I currently have a Spyder3 Elite I may do as you suggest re. the MultiProfiler.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Manuel_A on January 11, 2011, 01:07:01 pm
Hi All,

I ordered two PA241W-BK-SV, the first two arrived damaged so they went back to NEC.
My replacements are on their way, but I am concerned about the
Pixels per inch (PPI) or Pixel Density of just 94

Everything will be to large, what can I do about this.

My W701 has a PPI of 133
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Czornyj on January 11, 2011, 03:04:18 pm
I am concerned about the
Pixels per inch (PPI) or Pixel Density of just 94

Everything will be to large, what can I do about this.

My W701 has a PPI of 133

Slide it backwards!
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Manuel_A on January 11, 2011, 03:35:39 pm

Slide it backwards!


Hi Czornyj,

Say what...
Please explain
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: AndrewKulin on January 12, 2011, 07:01:19 pm
I just received a PA271W last week and have downloaded the 2-week trial of BasICColor.  I also managed to find enough desk space to also keep my old Dell FPW2405 in use in a dual monitor set-up.

What I find odd however is that as others have noted for the NEC monitors (PA241W or PA271W) all 4 calibration methods are available for my PA271W.  But the odd part is, all 4 calibration methods are also shown as available for my close to 6-year old Dell monitor (and this includes Hardware calibration (Monitor LUTs)).  I am surprised the Dell has such a capability, to the point where I question if the software is properly identifying what methods are really available. 

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Dan Sroka on January 17, 2011, 10:53:22 am
I just purchased the NEC PA271W with SpectraVision II. I'm interested to know what SpectraVision settings other people are using for photo editing. I started with their "Photo Editing" settings, and just knocked Intensity down to 120 to make it better suited for my workspace (see attached). Anyone else do anything different?

I have a few other questions about how to best use/understand the new power this monitor and software give me:

(1) in what situations might you want to change Color Gamut to AdobeRGB, or change Contrast Ratio to a specific setting?
(2) under Preferences/Calibration, there's an option for Calibration Priority (Max contrast ratio vs Best Greyscale) -- what are people's experiences with these?
(3) when I wake the monitor up from sleep, it seems to take a minute to "settle in", with the monitor flickering different colors. Is this normal?

Any other photography workflow suggestions? (I wish NEC's manual gave more concrete advice/examples for their end users!)
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: rmyers on January 17, 2011, 05:25:48 pm
I just purchased the NEC PA271W with SpectraVision II. I'm interested to know what SpectraVision settings other people are using for photo editing. I started with their "Photo Editing" settings, and just knocked Intensity down to 120 to make it better suited for my workspace (see attached). Anyone else do anything different?

I have a few other questions about how to best use/understand the new power this monitor and software give me:

(1) in what situations might you want to change Color Gamut to AdobeRGB, or change Contrast Ratio to a specific setting?
(2) under Preferences/Calibration, there's an option for Calibration Priority (Max contrast ratio vs Best Greyscale) -- what are people's experiences with these?
(3) when I wake the monitor up from sleep, it seems to take a minute to "settle in", with the monitor flickering different colors. Is this normal?

Any other photography workflow suggestions? (I wish NEC's manual gave more concrete advice/examples for their end users!)

1)  If you were going to output it in Adobe RGB.  sRGB for web browsing or looking at photos you were going to post on the web.  

Contrast ratio can be used for print matching.  A print will probably not have a contrast of over 300:1.  I set up a profile for a semi gloss paper that had white point at 6K, luminance at 100 cd/m2 and contrast 200:1.  I sent some files to an online printer and compared them when they came back.  Pretty dang close.  I will fine tune it.  When I get that match where I want it, I will name that profile with the name of the paper and the online printer.

2) Pretty sure that Best Grayscale will not work with anything other than native contrast.  Will have to look at manual tonight.  Others might chime in that know for sure.

3)  Mine seems to take a minute or two after I turn it on to stabilize, almost like warming up.  I would like to know if this is common as well.

Another feature is that you can use ICC profiles for soft proofing.  I am new to this monitor as well and am reading and studying at a slow pace.  I bought Digital Dog's book and am in the process of learning about color management and specifically the use of ICC profiles currently.  It will be a while before I can utilize all the features of this monitor.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: Dan Sroka on January 17, 2011, 08:46:38 pm
Thanks for the feedback.

2) Pretty sure that Best Grayscale will not work with anything other than native contrast.  Will have to look at manual tonight.  Others might chime in that know for sure.

Yes, that's true. Wish the description was a bit more detailed about what it actually *does*.

Quote
3)  Mine seems to take a minute or two after I turn it on to stabilize, almost like warming up.  I would like to know if this is common as well.

Well, both of ours do it, and it seems to mimic the behavior when you switch profiles, so it looks like it is by design.

Quote
Another feature is that you can use ICC profiles for soft proofing.  I am new to this monitor as well and am reading and studying at a slow pace.

I just discovered this feature in MultiProfiler, but need read up some more as well.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: davidh202 on January 19, 2011, 10:26:53 pm
1 Contrast ratio can be used for print matching.  A print will probably not have a contrast of over 300:1.  I set up a profile for a semi gloss paper that had white point at 6K, luminance at 100 cd/m2 and contrast 200:1.  I sent some files to an online printer and compared them when they came back.  Pretty dang close.  I will fine tune it.  When I get that match where I want it, I will name that profile with the name of the paper and the online printer.

 3)  Mine seems to take a minute or two after I turn it on to stabilize, almost like warming up.  I would like to know if this is common as well.
 

I have the 241 and view in a darkened environment and am using the same settings with very good results with an Epson 7900.
The monitor, or I should say the Spectraview software goes through a 1 minute 'tune up', when first turned on I get a small splash screen with a 60 second countdown.
All monitors need at least 20 minutes or so to warm up and stabilize before doing any calibrating or profiling.
Title: Re: PA241W and Spectraview II
Post by: ejnewman on February 04, 2011, 05:40:26 am
I decided this should be a new post, please see:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=50961.0