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Author Topic: Hasselblad H4D-40 to be launched on Feb 10th  (Read 81845 times)

tho_mas

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Hasselblad H4D-40 to be launched on Feb 10th
« Reply #180 on: February 08, 2010, 07:59:39 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
A well captured single shot of, say, a P65+ is "high quality" enough for many purposes, and it is nice to have that much res for moving subjects, but for very large prints, especially murals e.g. 3m * 5m, I will shift and stitch with a 60Mpx, and Kapture Group say that they expect to produce a stitching back for 60Mpx sensors this Spring.
Just wondered about the "high quality" term here...sounds like less resolution = less quality. Too, 40 or 60 MP is already loads of resolutuion.
Still... stitching is often not an option. And if it is not... with a highres back you can still get a highres capture with single shot.
As to flat stitching with your view camera: it is limited anyway as with large movements the edges go soft, of course (here nodal point stitching is clearly better but you have to take much more captures).
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KevinA

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Hasselblad H4D-40 to be launched on Feb 10th
« Reply #181 on: February 08, 2010, 08:00:14 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
And... landscape is one domain where stitching is overall a better option for those interested in really high quality prints.

Cheers,
Bernard

Hi Bernard,
I've seen your images posted here and have to say I like them and I can't argue with the quality.
I also think stitching is only an option in some cases, I would not want to base getting the images on stitching as the only option for a high quality large print if I set out with the intention of making large prints.
60 mp would be a far better bet if there was a choice, besides composing the picture would be much better in camera rather than tweaking on a computer. Plus you are a bit limited on shape with stitching unless you shoot multi rows.
I can't think there is an argument for stitching when one frame can get it, sure on a budget, but no photographic reason what so ever.

Kevin.
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aaron

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Hasselblad H4D-40 to be launched on Feb 10th
« Reply #182 on: February 08, 2010, 08:19:40 am »

Quote from: eronald
Yes, there is a brave new world of iPads and 100dpi max.
Also, IMHO, inkjet is actually 100dpi too.

Edmund

Interesting comment on inkjet being 100dpi,
Can you elaborate on your thoughts Edmund?

Aaron.
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #183 on: February 08, 2010, 08:57:48 am »

Quote from: tho_mas
Just wondered about the "high quality" term here...sounds like less resolution = less quality. Too, 40 or 60 MP is already loads of resolutuion.
Still... stitching is often not an option. And if it is not... with a highres back you can still get a highres capture with single shot.
As to flat stitching with your view camera: it is limited anyway as with large movements the edges go soft, of course (here nodal point stitching is clearly better but you have to take much more captures).
Using Apo-digitars the 100mm * 100mm P3 uses about all the usable image circle, giving about 250Mpx.

For higher res, the Schneider Fine Art Gold lenses, with the 100Mpx digiback with 9 or 10 micron pixels would be a better option for giga-pixel stitching... if weight and cost and bulk were not a problem!

Bernard's stitching system is, I suspect, lighter than any 60Mpx system... but an apo-digitar and the back are light enough... just need a good light camera.
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tho_mas

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« Reply #184 on: February 08, 2010, 09:10:49 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Using Apo-digitars the 100mm * 100mm P3 uses about all the usable image circle, giving about 250Mpx.
I wasn't referring to the usable image circle - I was referring to the lens performance with large movements (in conjunction with wide angle lenses).
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 09:12:05 am by tho_mas »
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lisa_r

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« Reply #185 on: February 08, 2010, 09:07:53 pm »

Yes, it is interesting in the context of the iPad and whatever else we will be reading off of by this time next year. 100 dpi or less. And Edmund's comment about inkjet being 100 dpi.

I have often wondered how much data actually sticks to the printed page. How many megapixels are actually visible on the Vogue glossy page?? In my experience even with a 12mp camera, you could not see a lot of the data in the file once it was printed on an inkjet. Mind you, the print looks great! Even close-up it looks great. But looking at the monitor at 100% reveals stuff that you can not see without a magnifying glass or loupe. And even then you re missing info. in the moderate sized print. My mind keeps going back to that article where Michael had his expert friends come to the gallery and they could not tell a Canon G9 from a high rez back, other than the DOF disparities.

I know that in one of my portfolios I have an image shot with a Sony something or other 707 snapshot camera, and this print is indistinguishable form the rest of the stuff in the 11x14 book (from Canon 1Ds, 5D, Hassy scans, 5D2, 1Ds3, etc.) They all print quite well IMO.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 09:13:49 pm by lisa_r »
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #186 on: February 09, 2010, 05:17:01 am »

Hi, Lisa.
Quote from: lisa_r
Yes, it is interesting in the context of the iPad and whatever else we will be reading off of by this time next year. 100 dpi or less. And Edmund's comment about inkjet being 100 dpi.
Generally it is considered that printing at more than 360ppi gives no visible improvement, the difference between 240 and 360 can be difficult to spot, and 70 looks awful... but this is not a limitation of inkjet prints, but of the human eye.
Quote
I have often wondered how much data actually sticks to the printed page. How many megapixels are actually visible on the Vogue glossy page?? In my experience even with a 12mp camera, you could not see a lot of the data in the file once it was printed on an inkjet. Mind you, the print looks great! Even close-up it looks great.
The way the press process and screen photographs they loose most of the res, and a professional inkjet with a good RIP makes a difference that is worth the 4,500.
Quote
But looking at the monitor at 100% reveals stuff that you can not see without a magnifying glass or loupe. And even then you re missing info. in the moderate sized print. My mind keeps going back to that article where Michael had his expert friends come to the gallery and they could not tell a Canon G9 from a high rez back, other than the DOF disparities.

I know that in one of my portfolios I have an image shot with a Sony something or other 707 snapshot camera, and this print is indistinguishable form the rest of the stuff in the 11x14 book (from Canon 1Ds, 5D, Hassy scans, 5D2, 1Ds3, etc.) They all print quite well IMO.
We are talking about high res files for big prints, so, unless your book is 11 * 14 feet, it is irrelevant.

Many photographers know the limitations of their equipment, and produce moody pictures of misty sunsets, as they know they have not got what it takes to capture much detail. To produce an acceptable landscape you need to capture the detail or texture in the scene.

By using a digiback on a view camera, you can often use the movements to compensate for the lack of DOF, or you can use focus merge.

Sharpening, fractals and ALCE can make prints look good at low original camera pixels per print inch, but it is difficult to reinvent lost detail.

I think we have what we could use to carry on where Constable and Canaletto left off, but we should not expect the machine to do all the work for us.
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #187 on: February 09, 2010, 06:56:19 am »

Quote from: tho_mas
so a well captured single shot of, say, a P65+ is not really "high quality"? That's new to me.
Stitching is far to often not an option if you really care about certain image details (i.e. a specific moment). This applies escpecially to changing light or moving objects due to wind and the like.

There is no denying that the P65+ delivers excellent resolution, but considering that many housholds now have 50 inch TVs in their living room, the definition of a large print has IMHO changed a lot in the past 5 years.

For many of these large prints, 60Mp is very far from cutting it. It reallyt depends on the market you are trying to address.

To my eyes, anybody trying to address the best possible image quality in terms of details (knowing that there of course other aspects t image quality) shoudl do stitching, whatever the camera used.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #188 on: February 09, 2010, 08:29:03 am »

Quote from: KevinA
Hi Bernard,
I've seen your images posted here and have to say I like them and I can't argue with the quality.
I also think stitching is only an option in some cases, I would not want to base getting the images on stitching as the only option for a high quality large print if I set out with the intention of making large prints.
60 mp would be a far better bet if there was a choice, besides composing the picture would be much better in camera rather than tweaking on a computer. Plus you are a bit limited on shape with stitching unless you shoot multi rows.
I can't think there is an argument for stitching when one frame can get it, sure on a budget, but no photographic reason what so ever.

Kevin,

In therory you would be correct... now the question is not about comparing a 60MP perfect camera vs a 20MP perfect camera...

It is about a P65+ on a Mamiya platform vs a leading DSLR from one of the major vendors... which means that the usage of the 35mm option will offer:

- less weight,
- more options going long or going wide,
- mode DoF when needed, less DoF when needed,
- readily available back ups,
- more rugedness,
- less risk when evolving in dodgy environments,
- a lot more battery life,
- ...

Regardless of the price, I would stitck with my current setup for anything for day trips near the car.

That is the key value of stitching, it gives you the flexibility to track a charging bull at 10:45 AM and to shoot a 200 megapixel multi-row pano at 11:05 with a single camera.

Cheers,
Bernard

Toto

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« Reply #189 on: February 09, 2010, 02:05:27 pm »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
To my eyes, anybody trying to address the best possible image quality in terms of details (knowing that there of course other aspects t image quality) shoudl do stitching, whatever the camera used.

Stitching is boring and is not an everyday solution

Anyway, digital 35 mm IQ is not equivalent to IQ of a MF back (and you still need a tripod ...). So 3 good stitched photos of 20 MP are not as good as one native 60 MP.

3 nice girls don't make a top model

At the end, if you want large format and are courageous enough to stitch, 4 photos of 60MP will be so nice !
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gwhitf

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« Reply #190 on: February 09, 2010, 02:56:58 pm »

In that Hasselblad sales site, they feature Alec Soth. His 8x10 rocks. I'm trying to find the story that he tells, somewhere on the web, about him taking a cover assignment from the NYTimes, and time was short -- instant turnaround -- so he didn't have time to shoot the camera he knew well and was comfortable with (8x10), so he rented a digital back and a tech, and set off to shoot the job. I think I remember in the story, they had problems with the camera, either it locked up or they simply couldn't figure out how to use it, and in the end, the job was pretty much botched, and his pictures got killed. They ran an illustration on the Cover instead.

Point being: The best camera for the job is the one that you know well, and the that you're comfortable with, whether it be a T2 point and shoot, or film, or a P65 Megalopolis. Your style is your style, and it's a delicate dance to venture outside of that.

Also, oddly, it seems like on that Hasselblad site, they run some Hasselblad images, but also some 8x10 film images, but of course, don't bother to note that some of them are not Hasselblad digital.

Nothing wrong with selling, but there's always a true, real world backstory. Always.

(To their credit, at least they didn't strip in an overly hi-rez image, into the LCD of the camera. We're making progress!)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 03:45:51 pm by gwhitf »
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David Grover / Phase One

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« Reply #191 on: February 09, 2010, 03:11:59 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
In that Hasselblad sales site, they feature Alec Soth. His 8x10 rocks. I'm trying to find the story that he tells, somewhere on the web, about him taking a cover assignment from the NYTimes, and time was short -- instant turnaround -- so he didn't have time to shoot the camera he knew well and was comfortable with (8x10), so he rented a digital back and a tech, and set off to shoot the job. I think I remember in the story, they had problems with the camera, either it locked up or they simply couldn't figure out how to use it, and in the end, the job was pretty much botched, and his pictures got killed. They ran an illustration on the Cover instead.

Point being: The best camera for the job is the one that you know well, and the that you're comfortable with, whether it be a T2 point and shoot, or film, or a P65 Megalopolis. Your style is your style, and it's a delicate dance to venture outside of that.

Also, oddly, it seems like on that Hasselblad site, they run some Hasselblad images, but also some 8x10 film images, but of course, don't bother to note that some of them are not Hasselblad digital.

Nothing wrong with selling, but there's always a true, real world backstory. Always.

Mark,

I assume you mean here...

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/user-showcase/alec-soth.aspx

Note Alec says he shot with the H3D since 2008, only comments on the portrait and the Auckland house

The other photograph is labelled 2002.

David




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gwhitf

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« Reply #192 on: February 09, 2010, 03:23:31 pm »

Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
I assume you mean here...

Yeah, David, that's the sales page, not the backstory page.

And to stay in the "ride on the coattails mentality" shown here by Hasselblad, I'm looking for that BMW webpage, where they show a Mercedes down in the bottom left corner. Yes, they're legally correct, I guess, that it shows a copyright of 2002, but in spirit, hmm, I'm not so sure.

Would a casual customer assume that that 8x10 was shot on a Hasselblad back? I'd think so. But I guess your lawyers went over it before it was uploaded.

As far as venturing outside his comfort zone, I just thought it was pretty cool, and forthcoming, for a guy at his stature, to freely tell that NYTimes story. I'd post the link, but I can't find it right now. Everything that I see about him, (and now helping publish a blog a Little Brown), seems to indicate that he's a great guy.

http://littlebrownmushroom.wordpress.com/
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 03:36:05 pm by gwhitf »
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TMARK

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« Reply #193 on: February 09, 2010, 03:40:07 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
In that Hasselblad sales site, they feature Alec Soth. His 8x10 rocks. I'm trying to find the story that he tells, somewhere on the web, about him taking a cover assignment from the NYTimes, and time was short -- instant turnaround -- so he didn't have time to shoot the camera he knew well and was comfortable with (8x10), so he rented a digital back and a tech, and set off to shoot the job. I think I remember in the story, they had problems with the camera, either it locked up or they simply couldn't figure out how to use it, and in the end, the job was pretty much botched, and his pictures got killed. They ran an illustration on the Cover instead.

Point being: The best camera for the job is the one that you know well, and the that you're comfortable with, whether it be a T2 point and shoot, or film, or a P65 Megalopolis. Your style is your style, and it's a delicate dance to venture outside of that.

Also, oddly, it seems like on that Hasselblad site, they run some Hasselblad images, but also some 8x10 film images, but of course, don't bother to note that some of them are not Hasselblad digital.

Nothing wrong with selling, but there's always a true, real world backstory. Always.

Alec used a 1ds2 and couldn't make it work for him.  The assignment was not one for him, he shouldn't have taken it.
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David Grover / Phase One

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« Reply #194 on: February 09, 2010, 03:52:46 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
Yeah, David, that's the sales page, not the backstory page.

And to stay in the "ride on the coattails mentality" shown here by Hasselblad, I'm looking for that BMW webpage, where they show a Mercedes down in the bottom left corner. Yes, they're legally correct, I guess, that it shows a copyright of 2002, but in spirit, hmm, I'm not so sure.

Would a casual customer assume that that 8x10 was shot on a Hasselblad back? I'd think so. But I guess your lawyers went over it before it was uploaded.

As far as venturing outside his comfort zone, I just thought it was pretty cool, and forthcoming, for a guy at his stature, to freely tell that NYTimes story. I'd post the link, but I can't find it right now. Everything that I see about him, (and now helping publish a blog a Little Brown), seems to indicate that he's a great guy.

http://littlebrownmushroom.wordpress.com/

I imagine Alec approved it himself.

Thanks for blog link.

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David Grover
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pcunite

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« Reply #195 on: February 09, 2010, 04:56:08 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
In that Hasselblad sales site, they feature Alec Soth. His 8x10 rocks. I'm trying to find the story that he tells, somewhere on the web, about him taking a cover assignment from the NYTimes, and time was short -- instant turnaround -- so he didn't have time to shoot the camera he knew well and was comfortable with (8x10), so he rented a digital back and a tech, and set off to shoot the job. I think I remember in the story, they had problems with the camera, either it locked up or they simply couldn't figure out how to use it, and in the end, the job was pretty much botched, and his pictures got killed. They ran an illustration on the Cover instead.

Here is the story:
http://toomuchchocolate.org/?p=1067
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #196 on: February 09, 2010, 05:47:24 pm »

Quote from: Toto
Stitching is boring and is not an everyday solution

Anyway, digital 35 mm IQ is not equivalent to IQ of a MF back (and you still need a tripod ...). So 3 good stitched photos of 20 MP are not as good as one native 60 MP.

3 nice girls don't make a top model

At the end, if you want large format and are courageous enough to stitch, 4 photos of 60MP will be so nice !

Stitching is "boring" you.

Cheers,
Bernard

Toto

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« Reply #197 on: February 09, 2010, 05:56:14 pm »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Stitching is "boring" you.

Cheers,
Bernard

Of course, and 35 mm is boring me too

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TechTalk

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« Reply #198 on: February 10, 2010, 12:56:04 am »

Quote from: gwhitf
In that Hasselblad sales site, they feature Alec Soth. His 8x10 rocks.
What happens when he shoots with something else?
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TechTalk

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« Reply #199 on: February 10, 2010, 01:04:14 am »

Quote from: gwhitf
Also, oddly, it seems like on that Hasselblad site, they run some Hasselblad images, but also some 8x10 film images, but of course, don't bother to note that some of them are not Hasselblad digital.
Also, oddly, if you click on the link to the main "User Showcase" page you get just one statement plus the links to the individual photographers pages...

"On this new section of our website we will feature selected Hasselblad photographers and their work. All types of photography are welcome, but we will place special emphasis upon photographers who are doing unique or technically challenging things with their Hasselblad gear. To be considered for inclusion in this showcase, please contact your local Hasselblad representative."

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/user-showcase.aspx
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