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Leonardo Barreto

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« Reply #240 on: June 15, 2009, 10:49:10 pm »

... but isn't that a grate photo? it represents a lot. Wasn't AGFA one of the first developers of transparency/slide film? that was not so long ago, and now it is coming down and the public is shooting the event with their cellphones, digicams and uploading them to Flker and Facebook.... probably one generation from black and white to color slide and ... no more color slides.

The article talks about traditional camera companies knowing that the perfect storm of digital was coming but not being able to cope with it because it was bigger and swifter than their worst fears.

They pace of the change, the tools and know how that they had, it all brought disaster to a lot of them. He used the example of an octopus that is the perfect animal in the water but no good outside of it...

Rollei, Sinar and F&H are a few of this companies that had to transition from mechanics and optics (where they are state of the art) to electronics and software, they had to also move at a maddening speed to produce a better model every year....

the result is never as graphic as in this image, but often as catastrophic as this building falling ....





Quote from: H1/A75 Guy
They must have got that demo team on the cheap. Buildings were supposed to fall in on themselves (implode), not fall over.
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Geoffrey

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« Reply #241 on: June 17, 2009, 06:05:03 am »

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
..The article talks about traditional camera companies knowing that the perfect storm of digital was coming but not being able to cope with it because it was bigger and swifter than their worst fears.

They pace of the change, the tools and know how that they had, it all brought disaster to a lot of them. He used the example of an octopus that is the perfect animal in the water but no good outside of it...

Rollei, Sinar and F&H are a few of this companies that had to transition from mechanics and optics (where they are state of the art) to electronics and software, they had to also move at a maddening speed to produce a better model every year....

the result is never as graphic as in this image, but often as catastrophic as this building falling ....


The irony is that both Hassy and Rollei did see the storm coming and did respond. They just missed the timing - in Rollei's case (I believe) it was a strange situation in that they were too far ahead of the curve: in the 1990's they were making digital scan back connections, and trying to find a home for digital backs (6mp) in their lineup. Not highly promoted, and mostly in Europe, but there it was. In the marketplace.

one can imagine the situation where they spent whatever funds they had too soon, and for (in today's terms) an insuficient product. Were they to have worked on connections for backs about 5-10 years later, and really opened themselves up that way, perhaps the situation would have been quite different. Its really unfortunate when the commitment was made, the money spent, and the timing was just too soon.

One has to rethink the "leading" edge (or is it bleeding edge?) and the model for timing: unlike the classic tech'l model, of research-oriented companies thoughtfully being 10-15 years ahead of the curve, and bringing products to fruition, the new "digital model" seems to be that you bide your time, find a good partner, and maybe even be a year behind the curve - so you can deliver your product successfully, reliably, and cost-effectively. Its certainly a different way of thinking.

So the older European companies have had to adapt - and be more nimble in their approach to partnering. As we've seen, its not been without mishaps. Interesting times.
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geesbert

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« Reply #242 on: June 17, 2009, 12:50:45 pm »

Quote from: H1/A75 Guy
They must have got that demo team on the cheap. Buildings were supposed to fall in on themselves (implode), not fall over.


If you knew the site, you'd see why it had to fall this way. there are housing estates to the left, a big open plane and an urban highway to the right
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Leonardo Barreto

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« Reply #243 on: June 17, 2009, 08:04:40 pm »

Shortly after a chemical way to fix an image was developed in the 1840s --if I remember this ok--, one of the first casualties was the booming industry of miniature portrait studios. Before that, if you where going to war, or shipping to a colony at another part of the world, a sitting for a miniature -portable- portrait was high on the TO DO list. Photography could do this, so the industry was wiped out. I suppose that a large quantity of miniature painters probably transitioned to the new media.

It is probably difficult for Agfa and Konica to change since film is what they produced and now is not needed anymore.

Rollei wiped out Graflex business when they came out with a camera that was considered more practical by photojournalists ... until Leica discovered that you could use even less film and shoot faster...

Where is Graflex now? they where the inspiration to Mamiya, you can say that the 67 RB is a Japanese Graflex, but they came up with a new idea: the 645 format...

Rollei did not see the 645 format coming, and Hasselblad did.

Now. How much life has the 645 format have? It is much more difficult to see the future than to be a critic of the past.

After all nobody saw the internet coming. Did we?

Quote from: Geoffrey
The irony is that both Hassy and Rollei did see the storm coming and did respond. They just missed the timing - in Rollei's case (I believe) it was a strange situation in that they were too far ahead of the curve: in the 1990's they were making digital scan back connections, and trying to find a home for digital backs (6mp) in their lineup. Not highly promoted, and mostly in Europe, but there it was. In the marketplace.

one can imagine the situation where they spent whatever funds they had too soon, and for (in today's terms) an insuficient product. Were they to have worked on connections for backs about 5-10 years later, and really opened themselves up that way, perhaps the situation would have been quite different. Its really unfortunate when the commitment was made, the money spent, and the timing was just too soon.

One has to rethink the "leading" edge (or is it bleeding edge?) and the model for timing: unlike the classic tech'l model, of research-oriented companies thoughtfully being 10-15 years ahead of the curve, and bringing products to fruition, the new "digital model" seems to be that you bide your time, find a good partner, and maybe even be a year behind the curve - so you can deliver your product successfully, reliably, and cost-effectively. Its certainly a different way of thinking.

So the older European companies have had to adapt - and be more nimble in their approach to partnering. As we've seen, its not been without mishaps. Interesting times.
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PeterA

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« Reply #244 on: June 18, 2009, 08:49:51 am »

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
.......

After all nobody saw the internet coming. Did we?

Depends on how you define 'internet' - closed system but public  bulletin Boards were around for a decade or two before the internet arrived ..
Financial Market electronic boards were there decades before the internet - two way communication in cyber world via puters - decade before the internet started.

Bleeding edge is always the high ground taken by those who need the absolute latest - or those who in using the bleeding edge - profit the most..

MFD camera systems stopped being bleeding edge years ago - their own success seeded their own failure - instead of developing a larger market - they focused on stupidly high margins on low unit sales..
a typical and arrogant European way of doing business btw..

Succeeded in defining a niche so narrow that the CaNikons were happy to let the MFD boof heads play in their tiny corner - for now..meanwhile each generation of high end CaNikon creeps closer and closer to delivering everything the pro user market needs and more..

Silly little companies milking an ever diminishing market..all of a sudden discovering that if they lower prices their volumes actually increase ---DOH! Sadly maybe too little too late...



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ThierryH

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« Reply #245 on: June 18, 2009, 09:13:29 am »

Dear Peter,

with all due respect (and you know that I have for you), things are/were not as you describe it, margins over the top. The margins have been those of a minimum to make the company(ies) be just profitable and not loosing money. In fact, many tentatives have been made, by many players in this field, to reduce the prices, often selling at or even under real costs, years back and without any significant increase in sales numbers. Trade-ins and refurbished units have been proposed for as long as the beginning of digital, by the different manufacturers, and it has proven to be a financial "headache" after a while, for all, understand manufacturers AND distributors/dealers, without any other success than an increase in market share for some (but still with the "headache").

If mistake there is, it must be searched elsewhere, but not in the margins.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: PeterA
Depends on how you define 'internet' - closed system but public  bulletin Boards were around for a decade or two before the internet arrived ..
Financial Market electronic boards were there decades before the internet - two way communication in cyber world via puters - decade before the internet started.

Bleeding edge is always the high ground taken by those who need the absolute latest - or those who in using the bleeding edge - profit the most..

MFD camera systems stopped being bleeding edge years ago - their own success seeded their own failure - instead of developing a larger market - they focused on stupidly high margins on low unit sales..
a typical and arrogant European way of doing business btw..

Succeeded in defining a niche so narrow that the CaNikons were happy to let the MFD boof heads play in their tiny corner - for now..meanwhile each generation of high end CaNikon creeps closer and closer to delivering everything the pro user market needs and more..

Silly little companies milking an ever diminishing market..all of a sudden discovering that if they lower prices their volumes actually increase ---DOH! Sadly maybe too little too late...
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Steve Hendrix

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« Reply #246 on: June 18, 2009, 09:48:55 am »

Quote from: PeterA
Silly little companies milking an ever diminishing market..all of a sudden discovering that if they lower prices their volumes actually increase ---DOH! Sadly maybe too little too late...


How do you know volumes increased? And also, increased volumes do not guarantee increased profitability, the factor of increase has to be dramatic to maintain even the same level of profitability, given the amount of price reductions we've seen. Significant financial stress can be generated if projected volume increases are not met. While Phase One did not initiate these substantial price reductions, we have made competitive price adjustments of late. But initially we resisted because we felt quite sure the volume would not be made up - especially given the world's economic climate - in order to retain profitability. By this action we remained profitable (and continue to be).


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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jing q

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« Reply #247 on: June 18, 2009, 10:13:49 am »

Quote from: ThierryH
Dear Peter,

with all due respect (and you know that I have for you), things are/were not as you describe it, margins over the top. The margins have been those of a minimum to make the company(ies) be just profitable and not loosing money. In fact, many tentatives have been made, by many players in this field, to reduce the prices, often selling at or even under real costs, years back and without any significant increase in sales numbers. Trade-ins and refurbished units have been proposed for as long as the beginning of digital, by the different manufacturers, and it has proven to be a financial "headache" after a while, for all, understand manufacturers AND distributors/dealers, without any other success than an increase in market share for some (but still with the "headache").

If mistake there is, it must be searched elsewhere, but not in the margins.

Best regards,
Thierry

I think if the margins were insufficient then perhaps one needs to look into the business structure and how much fat there is in the company that makes the manufacturing of digital backs so expensive when the japanese are making cameras at a fraction of the cost.

Costs of buying from european manufacturers will always be much more expensive, perhaps there is something to be said about outsourcing production.

And if the argument is that quality control is an issue when production is outsourced, well I've only had a Canon fail on me once, 3 years after hard usage, whereas I had to send a Leaf back for replacement twice for serious problems right from the start. (noted, that Leaf is an Israeli company. But general fears about outsourcing production usually involve QC worries in Asian countries)

One starts to wonder if Hasselblad changed their business mentality too after being bought over by a Hong Kong company, Shriro.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 10:19:29 am by jing q »
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rainer_v

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« Reply #248 on: June 18, 2009, 11:04:26 am »

for me all the companies show an incredible lack of practical knowledge, which is at the same time astonishing and incredible. they need one,two or three photographers which are experienced and professional and to whom they trust, not hundreds of opinions which is what they try to collect and to filter.
to handle this different was what happened in my relation with sinar ( they trusted in my opinion/advices after some years of receiving input as important as brumbaer tools, stefans centerfold algorythm and many "details" ) and the results is now i.m.o. by far the best professional system for digital arcitecture photography ( my humble opinion ) ,- the only one too which is made by  one company from camera over back to software.

but what i mean above is:

how is it possile that phase one removed their lcc correction from dng files in newer sotware?
how is it possible that hasselblad still ignores and neglect the color shifts produced by shift lenses and not offering a solution which works 1005 colorshiftfree?
how is it possible that leaf didnt ever resolved completely thier centerfold issue, just using the ( i cal it ) workaround of inverting whitefiles to subtract it?
how can alpa say that there is no need for a sliding back?
why arca dont have a website?
what is linhof thinking building a nice new architecture camera without fixed infinity points so one has to focus for every infinty image again with loupe ?
why sinar didnt build a camera as the artec years ago? why they sold years only software which didnt allow to remove colorcasts on location?
why never was a batch workflow in any software for correcting color shifts in software till SH and me created the brumbaer workflow and sinar became convinced to put in together a similar thing in exposure?
many whys, and each of it is absolutely fundamental. i am sure that in other fields of photography there are much more ? to ask.

how can expect these companies to gain big enough professional market, delivering not ready thought products for very high prices? i am not surprised at all about whats happening now in the market, i expected this earlier. i am more surprised that so many photographers are contently working with their mf gear.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 04:15:27 pm by rainer_v »
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Leonardo Barreto

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« Reply #249 on: June 18, 2009, 03:44:42 pm »

[attachment=14631:image009.jpg]

or mabe the world is falling and the camera industry is not?
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pcunite

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« Reply #250 on: June 18, 2009, 04:10:33 pm »

Quote from: rainer_v
For me all the companies show an incredible lack of practical knowledge, which is at the same time astonishing and incredible.

I agree. How could Leica even think of releasing the S2 without Live View? If I where to purchase the camera, it would be sitting on a tripod over half it's life.
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TMARK

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« Reply #251 on: June 18, 2009, 04:26:21 pm »

Quote from: rainer_v
for me all the companies show an incredible lack of practical knowledge, which is at the same time astonishing and incredible. they need one,two or three photographers which are experienced and professional and to whom they trust, not hundreds of opinions which is what they try to collect and to filter.
to handle this different was what happened in my relation with sinar and me ( they trusted in my opinion/advices after some years of receiving input as important as brumbaer tools, stefans centerfold algorythm and much more details ) and the results is now i.m.o. by far the best professional system for digital arcitecture photography,- not to say the only one which really works out of one hand from camera over back to software without that there are mad compromises or workarounds.

but what i mean above is:

how is it possile that phase one removed their lcc correction from dng files in newer sotware?
how is it possible that hasselblad still ignores and neglect the color shifts produced by shift lenses and not offering a solution which works 1005 colorshiftfree?
how is it possible that leaf didnt ever resolved completely thier centerfold issue, just using the ( i cal it ) workaround of inverting whitefiles to subtract it?
how can alpa say that there is no need for a sliding back?
why arca dont have a website?
what is linhof thinking building a nice new architecture camera without fixed infinity points so one has to focus for every infinty image again with loupe ?
why sinar didnt build a camera as the artec years ago? why they sold years only software which didnt allow to remove colorcasts omn location?
why never was a batch workflow in any software for correcting color shifts in software till SH and me created the brumbaer workflow and sinar became convinced to let me show them how to do a similar thing in exposure?
many whys, and each of it is absolutely fundamental. i am sure that in other fields of photography there are much more ? to ask.

how can expect these companies to gain big enough professional market, delivering not ready thought products for very high prices? i am not surprised at all about whats happening now in the market, i expected this earlier. i am more surprised that so many photographers are contently working with their mf gear.

WARNING, LONG RANT

Amen Brother Rainer.  I think you and SH's involvement with Sinar produced the best digital architecture system available.  Sinar is the clear leader in this field.  What baffels me is why the big players never had a similar collaboration with fashion, interior, tabletop product shooters.  I mean a real collaboration, not a product endorsement. Phase had JR do a shoot for them but did they call up JR when planning out C1 4 or the P65?  I don't think so.  Did Sinar?  They seemed to have listened with the ESpirit 65, but I've never seen one, or even heard of anyone using one.  Its almost like a myth, a Unicorn of a fashion shooter's camera.  Leaf seems to have color issues for fashion/portrait worked out, and the S series backs are fast enough, but I still hate Leaf Capture, even though its solid.  I usually use LRoom if its for press, and LC just for tethering. In any case, the main problem I see is that these companies have primarily worked on their backs and let the camera side and work flow languish.  Phase sort of dropped the ball with C1 4, but its still best of the bunch, which when you consider the manufacturers' software in general, isn't saying THAT much.  Blad is in their own world, and its not a bad place to be if you like the H system.  

The main problem is simply this:  all of the back makers products somehow, one way or another, get in the way of just making a picture.  Either the camera is a piece of shiznit (Mamiya AFd series with the shutter lag is a pig with digital, nice with film, the H is just awkward with any lens other than the 80), the back isn't fast enough, software stability, no in camera jpegs, non-compatability with LR/ACR, dropped frames, color casts, half assed solutions or expensive solutions, all of these things put the gear in the forfront, rather than the creative process.  I'd rather spend time lighting than keeping track of a botched renaming job, or talking and interacting with the subject than explaining to the client why there is a color shift, why the preview looks like crap, why we lost some frames, etc.  In frustration I slapped on a film back for my AFd one time and I lost myself in the work, not in the gear.  It was liberating.  Using a 1ds gets you to the same mental state:  a Canon or Nikon melts into the background, letting you work.  That being said, I loved my P30+ IQ, hated the camera it was attched to (AFd).  In order to put it on an RZ, I would have to use wakeup cables and a dead plate (expensive and cumbersome) or buy a RZ ProIID with the same buggy, crappy, slow digital communication protocal as the AFd, for an extra $2k.  It also eats batteries, and you still need an adaper plate, for another $700.  This was unacceptable to me. Sold the P30+, started shooting film again.  I later bought a Leaf 54s from a friend for under $6k with a H to RZ plate, and now I have a workable system with an "obsolete" back attached to an "obsolete" camera.  The question the back makers should ask, based on my experience, is why the best workable solution to a working photographer involves product that is no longer currently available from a manufacturer.  The answer is because it works.

In many ways the Hy6 is the perfect solution, but too late.  Everyone who wanted a DB already bought a Phase/Leaf back in a dedicated mount, and invested in lenses, extension tubes, etc. for their camera, or went H.  The Hy6, while compelling, isn't worth the substantial hit to the bottom line involved in switching systems.  I would love to buy a Hy6, but it just does not offer much over my RZ/Leaf 54s, which, all in, cost less than a 1ds3 w/o a lens.  I really wish all of the players in this market the best of luck.  Unfortunately they are all too small to be bailed out.
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Leonardo Barreto

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« Reply #252 on: June 18, 2009, 06:40:10 pm »

This thread has 35,000 views    

There is probably more exposure here than in a trade show...

Can I ask you -- 35,000 viewers--, : Who are you?--
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PeterA

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« Reply #253 on: June 18, 2009, 07:30:59 pm »

Hi Thierry,

Seriously - no disrespect at any single person or company is meant..sometimes I say things with harsh words. However as a person who earns their living understanding good and bad economics and busines models - the MFD industry is a classic case study of failures on many levels. It is a shame because teh technology promises and in many cases delivers image quality and relative ease of use in workflow that is liberating. I am quite upset about teh prospect of great companies like Sinar - not beeing able to continue. I am not saying that Sinar wont continue - but i am concerned that photographers will be one day deprived of the great tools that Sinar and some others produce.

As has been said above by Rainer and others - there has been a mismatch between promise and delivery in too many important things concerning workflow. Now that many of the issues are being adresed - we also have teh worst economic conditions in living memory to deal with. Now we are seeing 'value' emerge in pricing at much more realistic levels - from all manufacturers. If this was managed a few years ago - the quality differential between MFD and 35m combined with pricing - would have made a huge difference in size of market.

Anyway - I think the industry situation is sad - very sad for photographers and even sadder for the people who work in these companies.

I wont argue high school economics with you Mr Hendricks - you seem to have a bee in your bonnett. Suffice to say - current pricing is much more likely to attract users - than past pricing. It takes time to build volume at any price. If there were too many players - then reducing prices faster is teh ONLY strategy that can win. This is basic strategy my friend. Of course it is painful but industry rationalisation is always painful.

The real question MFD cpmpanies shoudl ask themselves is "WHY isnt teh global market larger "?

The amswer to that question is obvious to users who do cost/cvalue analysis - compound this disfuctional equation by user unfriendliness in many areas constantly referred to. and you have you teh answer. it aint rocket science.

With respect
Pete

Quote from: ThierryH
Dear Peter,

with all due respect (and you know that I have for you), things are/were not as you describe it, margins over the top. The margins have been those of a minimum to make the company(ies) be just profitable and not loosing money. In fact, many tentatives have been made, by many players in this field, to reduce the prices, often selling at or even under real costs, years back and without any significant increase in sales numbers. Trade-ins and refurbished units have been proposed for as long as the beginning of digital, by the different manufacturers, and it has proven to be a financial "headache" after a while, for all, understand manufacturers AND distributors/dealers, without any other success than an increase in market share for some (but still with the "headache").

If mistake there is, it must be searched elsewhere, but not in the margins.

Best regards,
Thierry
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uaiomex

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« Reply #254 on: June 18, 2009, 07:48:13 pm »

Geesuzz TMark!  This makes the 5D2 look like it was made by Saint Peter himself.
Eduardo

Quote from: TMARK
WARNING, LONG RANT

Amen Brother Rainer.  I think you and SH's involvement with Sinar produced the best digital architecture system available.  Sinar is the clear leader in this field.  What baffels me is why the big players never had a similar collaboration with fashion, interior, tabletop product shooters.  I mean a real collaboration, not a product endorsement. Phase had JR do a shoot for them but did they call up JR when planning out C1 4 or the P65?  I don't think so.  Did Sinar?  They seemed to have listened with the ESpirit 65, but I've never seen one, or even heard of anyone using one.  Its almost like a myth, a Unicorn of a fashion shooter's camera.  Leaf seems to have color issues for fashion/portrait worked out, and the S series backs are fast enough, but I still hate Leaf Capture, even though its solid.  I usually use LRoom if its for press, and LC just for tethering. In any case, the main problem I see is that these companies have primarily worked on their backs and let the camera side and work flow languish.  Phase sort of dropped the ball with C1 4, but its still best of the bunch, which when you consider the manufacturers' software in general, isn't saying THAT much.  Blad is in their own world, and its not a bad place to be if you like the H system.  

The main problem is simply this:  all of the back makers products somehow, one way or another, get in the way of just making a picture.  Either the camera is a piece of shiznit (Mamiya AFd series with the shutter lag is a pig with digital, nice with film, the H is just awkward with any lens other than the 80), the back isn't fast enough, software stability, no in camera jpegs, non-compatability with LR/ACR, dropped frames, color casts, half assed solutions or expensive solutions, all of these things put the gear in the forfront, rather than the creative process.  I'd rather spend time lighting than keeping track of a botched renaming job, or talking and interacting with the subject than explaining to the client why there is a color shift, why the preview looks like crap, why we lost some frames, etc.  In frustration I slapped on a film back for my AFd one time and I lost myself in the work, not in the gear.  It was liberating.  Using a 1ds gets you to the same mental state:  a Canon or Nikon melts into the background, letting you work.  That being said, I loved my P30+ IQ, hated the camera it was attched to (AFd).  In order to put it on an RZ, I would have to use wakeup cables and a dead plate (expensive and cumbersome) or buy a RZ ProIID with the same buggy, crappy, slow digital communication protocal as the AFd, for an extra $2k.  It also eats batteries, and you still need an adaper plate, for another $700.  This was unacceptable to me. Sold the P30+, started shooting film again.  I later bought a Leaf 54s from a friend for under $6k with a H to RZ plate, and now I have a workable system with an "obsolete" back attached to an "obsolete" camera.  The question the back makers should ask, based on my experience, is why the best workable solution to a working photographer involves product that is no longer currently available from a manufacturer.  The answer is because it works.

In many ways the Hy6 is the perfect solution, but too late.  Everyone who wanted a DB already bought a Phase/Leaf back in a dedicated mount, and invested in lenses, extension tubes, etc. for their camera, or went H.  The Hy6, while compelling, isn't worth the substantial hit to the bottom line involved in switching systems.  I would love to buy a Hy6, but it just does not offer much over my RZ/Leaf 54s, which, all in, cost less than a 1ds3 w/o a lens.  I really wish all of the players in this market the best of luck.  Unfortunately they are all too small to be bailed out.
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Steve Hendrix

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« Reply #255 on: June 18, 2009, 08:01:41 pm »

Quote from: PeterA
I wont argue high school economics with you Mr Hendricks - you seem to have a bee in your bonnett. Suffice to say - current pricing is much more likely to attract users - than past pricing. It takes time to build volume at any price. If there were too many players - then reducing prices faster is teh ONLY strategy that can win. This is basic strategy my friend. Of course it is painful but industry rationalisation is always painful.


With respect
Pete


Pete

There's no arguing the fact that lower pricing attracts more users.

However, there is a critical link between how much lower and how many more users. And while it's obvious - even at the high school level   - that quickly reducing prices can help eliminate competitors, it can also have the same effect on the price reducer depending on how well that critical link is managed.

You described how it suddenly occurred to us that if we lowered prices, volume would increase. My point is simply that this fact doesn't guarantee any level of profitability in and of itself, which was kind of how you put it.


Respectfully,
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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PeterA

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« Reply #256 on: June 18, 2009, 08:51:36 pm »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Pete

There's no arguing the fact that lower pricing attracts more users.

However, there is a critical link between how much lower and how many more users. And while it's obvious - even at the high school level   - that quickly reducing prices can help eliminate competitors, it can also have the same effect on the price reducer depending on how well that critical link is managed.

You described how it suddenly occurred to us that if we lowered prices, volume would increase. My point is simply that this fact doesn't guarantee any level of profitability in and of itself, which was kind of how you put it.


Respectfully,
Steve Hendrix
Phase One


Steve,

I agree - reducing prices to take out competition only works if you are the low cost producer and at or around leading market share.... My understanding is that Phase One has market leadership interms of share. When Hasselblad did their pre-emptive slash i am sure they were attempting to get a greater market share in terme of volume - in order to be able to at the margin pre-empt any response from you guys. If everyone has similar cost structures - then reducing prices hurts everyone and then it gets down to the difficult and risky situaiton of who has the deeper pockets...

MFD is now in a kind of lose/lose game from a shareholders perspective....

Why I am concerned is that I feel it would be a great shame if some manufacturers of camera equipment ( not just MFD backs) closed shop as a result of the competitive dynamics playing out as above.
It has made me hesitate to buy some gear - if only because like anything mechanical irrepsective of starting build quality - things do break down over time and with use.

All photographers - wether they do it for a living or do it because they are passionate hobbysists want a healthy stable industry dynamic. The technology changing so much makes it a difficult background to achieve this. Shame if the hardware side of things got flushed along with perhaps a tech platform that is just too niche..and uneconomic. One company going down scares everyone - about the longevity of everyone else. Digi backs - sans bodies/systems and lenses - well what are they..if you get my drift.

Pete

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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #257 on: June 18, 2009, 09:06:25 pm »

...
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 09:14:40 pm by foto-z »
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Leonardo Barreto

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« Reply #258 on: June 18, 2009, 09:51:50 pm »

I remember the discussion about Nikon not making it. They had made a bad luck decision and Canon went way ahead when they where stuck in the DX format. Now things are very mature there. MF is not there yet, but probably the trajectory to being settled is there. Mamiya will come up with a mature AFD, Hasselblad will also work on improving their H3 system and they will all lower their prices as much as possible.

It is interesting that this two are systems where Europeans are working alongside with Japanese. Hasselblads are made with the help of Fujifilm --or the other way around, don't know-- and Phase One and Mamiya. Mamiya could not do a digital back on their own. Fujifilm also had a digital back that went the way of the Titanic, --and Hasselblad obviously could not do an 645 AF or they would have done it w/out Fujifilm--

It is also interesting that digital backs evolved from film scanning companies, like Imacon and Phase One.. and that Casio was one of the first companies set up to join a sensor with an LCD. Olympus was always shrinking cameras and now they have the DIGITAL PEN.

Imagine a MF with no mirror mechanism? it means that it could be smaller, with sharper lenses that could have less elements, less distortion, better color, sharper. With faster apertures.

Technology can safely make the mirror mechanism obsolete. Then you could have LIVE view, PC correction live. Super HD movie capability.

This is what Rollei/F&H/Sinar should have done as a proposition to the future of MF, instead of make up changes in to an old 6x6 system.

We will probably see that form a completely new company like RED...

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pcunite

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« Reply #259 on: June 18, 2009, 10:29:11 pm »

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
Technology can safely make the mirror mechanism obsolete. Then you could have LIVE view, PC correction live. Super HD movie capability.

This is what Rollei/F&H/Sinar should have done as a proposition to the future of MF, instead of make up changes in to an old 6x6 system.

We will probably see that form a completely new company like RED...

Right on Leonardo!
The way MFD is used mostly (tripod) work one could easily do away with the mirror! What makes it so funny (not really) is that all current MFD makers have the worst LCD available!
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