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Author Topic: Rhe RED Med format  (Read 81965 times)

Dan Wells

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Rhe RED Med format
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2008, 02:30:48 am »

I wonder how appealing it will be to primarily still photographers? If you shoot a lot of video or movie film, it will be VERY appealing! Other than that 617 sensor, all the other models are movie cameras that happen to shoot stills as well (and do a good job of it). Once you add an (electronic) viewfinder, battery grip, etc... , the 645 model will be $10,000 more than an H3D/60 or P65+ is today (not to mention that those cameras will decline in price over the next two years). It's also quite a bit heavier than a Phamiya, a Sinar or a Hassy- they're quoting 4 lbs (roughly the weight of most MF systems, including body, 80 mm lens and back) without lens, finder,  battery, storage module or handle. The FF35 model is, similarly, twice as expensive and somewhat heavier than pro DSLRs , while still being an EVF only camera.  There are clearly pretty significant cost, weight and functionality (EVF) tradeoffs as a still camera for the video functionality - worth it? I'm not sure for my uses - it certainly has me thinking which way to go...

                                             -Dan
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Carsten W

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« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2008, 02:52:33 am »

Quote from: thsinar
FYI:

- arTec announced as new product end of June '08, announced to be shipped in October '08 ---> is available and shipped in October '08

- Sinar Hy6 65 & Sinarback eSprit 65 announced as new product end of August '08, announced to be shipping at Photokina ---> is shipping by November 30th

1 Month delay for the Hy6 65 and the Sinarback eSprit 65: is this a "Wimpy Hamburger Promise"?

 

Best regards,
Thierry

To be fair, some updates to eXposure have been promised for a long time, right?
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thsinar

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« Reply #62 on: November 14, 2008, 03:21:33 am »

Yes, absolutely right Carsten, for Photokina as well, and now it looks to become end of November.

Best regards.
Thierry

Quote from: carstenw
To be fair, some updates to eXposure have been promised for a long time, right?
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Thierry Hagenauer
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markowich

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« Reply #63 on: November 14, 2008, 04:40:05 am »

dear graeme,
would you be kind enough to comment (for us still photographers) about autofocus on the REDs? i read somewhere that it only works in still mode, with RED
lenses. is this correct? if so, how many autofocus sensors are there? also, how about the light metering? none/center weighted/ spot ...?
thanks in advance, peter


Quote from: Graeme Nattress
Working hard as we speak.....

Doing full sensor at a movie fps for maybe over an hour or two of recording is a non-trivial task. It's also completely different to recording a short burst of stills. For motion, timing has to be precise over that length of record, you  can't wait a fraction here or there while a buffer empties or a card rights. It's either real-time or it's not. There's no in between.

The other factor is the sensor skew that especially Nikon shows. Canon has it to an extent. RED uses a CMOS rolling shutter also, but it's much less still again on the skew. Currently the Nikon D90's is practically unusable (in my biassed opinion) and shows severe scaling artifacts taking the full sensor image down to 720p to add insult to injury. This is the difference in a sensor designed primarily for stills with a physical shutter, compared to a camera designed for motion use.

To keep the data rates manageable, we use the REDCODE RAW compression,  which keeps the sensor data raw for post flexibility, but uses wavelet based lossy, but visually lossless compression. That is how we can write the current 4k files at up to 30fps onto a fast compact flash card (until it's full) or onto a small RAID drive or RAM pack for a longer time.

I hope that explains some of the complexities....

Graeme
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markowich

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« Reply #64 on: November 14, 2008, 04:55:01 am »

uuuuppps, i forgot: how about high iso performance?
peter


Quote from: markowich
dear graeme,
would you be kind enough to comment (for us still photographers) about autofocus on the REDs? i read somewhere that it only works in still mode, with RED
lenses. is this correct? if so, how many autofocus sensors are there? also, how about the light metering? none/center weighted/ spot ...?
thanks in advance, peter
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Snook

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« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2008, 06:19:02 am »

Quote from: thsinar
FYI:

- arTec announced as new product end of June '08, announced to be shipped in October '08 ---> is available and shipped in October '08

- Sinar Hy6 65 & Sinarback eSprit 65 announced as new product end of August '08, announced to be shipping at Photokina ---> is shipping by November 30th

1 Month delay for the Hy6 65 and the Sinarback eSprit 65: is this a "Wimpy Hamburger Promise"?

 

Best regards,
Thierry


There is thesinar Plugging his product again....
This is a RED Post.. stop plugging your product in every thread... And always and only complementing the photographers with SInar products..:+}
Snook
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2008, 06:38:36 am »

Quote from: Snook
There is thesinar Plugging his product again....

Thierry was answering to a comment posted by another about Sinar. If you bothered to look properly you would see that.

Quote from: Snook
And always and only complementing the photographers with SInar products..:+}
Snook

Just look at the 'recent works' thread to see how untrue that is.

Your post seems to be nothing more than an unsubstantiated personal attack on another LL member. But then we all know that's your style...
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 06:39:04 am by foto-z »
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thsinar

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« Reply #67 on: November 14, 2008, 06:42:45 am »

Dear Snook,

Please take note of following:

1. I HAD complimented your recent images: do you have a Sinar product? Follow precisely and check your claims before making any about me!

2. I only then intervene when the name Sinar is mentioned: in this case it has been mentioned by "gwithft".

Quote:

"Or, maybe it's just karma coming back at Phase and Sinar. They are the kings of the Wimpy Hamburger Promise, announcing things months and months in advance, except this time, with Red, it came back and bit them in the ass".

It is my absolute right to answer, and I won't ask for your permission.

3. May I ask you to be polite: you won't impress me with your rudeness and achieve nothing this way.

best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Snook
There is thesinar Plugging his product again....
This is a RED Post.. stop plugging your product in every thread... And always and only complementing the photographers with SInar products..:+}
Snook
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 07:26:24 am by thsinar »
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Thierry Hagenauer
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stewarthemley

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« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2008, 08:19:18 am »

Thierry, I admire your firm but fair and polite handling of such rudeness.

Snook, do you have to be so aggressive so often? It's fine to question but it can be done in a pleasant way and usually gets better results.
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Graeme Nattress

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« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2008, 08:27:53 am »

I don't know the specific details to tell you. As you can imagine this is a fairly large project, with a lot of people working on it. I look at compression and image processing algorithms, and really, I've not had much time to study what is going on elsewhere in the system. Released details have primarily been about the concept as a whole, and the sensors to be used. I'd fully expect a more detailed specification will become available, especially those elements that are more digital photographic than digital cinema oriented.

Graeme
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jeff Liao

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« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2008, 08:34:43 am »

Quote from: Tim Lüdin
I use a RED since January. In fact my partner and I have two now.
Ever  since I was very impressed by its still frame quality.
2 weeks ago, we shot a big comercial for a telecom company here in switzerland.
The ad-agency also booked a still photographer for the prinst stuff. He used his hassy 39mp.
During the shooting the customer checked my laptop with the RED files. I was constantly rendering some still frames and quicktimes
to give the agency some stuff to feel good about.
The agency and the customer coundn't believe what they saw. Even the still photographer (I'm one too) was totaly blown away by
the RED stills.
During lunch break the whole set was discussing the future of still and motion photography.
I told them that the epic will come out next year and about the rumors etc.
From then on the still photographer was joking about learning the motion camera work or he might be out of work...

Dont start to pick my writing apart. All I want to say is "the change is here". Like I said it months before. Faster than we all thougt.
By the way, the ad-angency was Jung von Matt. The best agency in the german speaking part of Europe.
The photographer was one of the best in Switzerland.
So this shows that also these big pros can see it coming and they like the idea of shooting high-end (midformat) and high-end motion with just one cam. Not ideal for everyone, but great for the ad shooters.

And dont question RED to much. They will deliver. They did before.
Jim, Graeme Nattress (is posting here) and the team will pull it off again.
They have the best customer service I know to date. They respond quickly as hell. Now think Hassy, Phase etc....

Interesting times, crazy times.

Tim

Dear Tim,

Do you mean Red still file is better than Hassy 39mp file?

thanks

Jeff
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Tim Lüdin

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« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2008, 09:06:34 am »

Quote from: jeff Liao
Dear Tim,

Do you mean Red still file is better than Hassy 39mp file?

thanks

Jeff


Hi Jeff

No not exactly. The Hassy File has a bit mor DR and has a bigger resolution, but the RED File looked as good as the Hassy stuff on
the laptops on set. You can use a RED still up to A3 maybe A2.
So this made everyone chatter about what could be happening in the near future. As we know now, RED pulled the rabbit out of the hat allready.
Exactly as many were discussing on the set a few weeks ago.
As one of the early RED users and beeing a pro photographer I can only say, that the RED programm is killer in every way.
The RED one is cool but the new stuff will realy change the industry for good.
Just stay open minded and let it coming. Like Obama, the change is here.

Tim

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paulmoorestudio

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« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2008, 09:32:06 am »

Quote from: Tim
Hi Jeff

No not exactly. The Hassy File has a bit mor DR and has a bigger resolution, but the RED File looked as good as the Hassy stuff on
the laptops on set. You can use a RED still up to A3 maybe A2.
So this made everyone chatter about what could be happening in the near future. As we know now, RED pulled the rabbit out of the hat allready.
Exactly as many were discussing on the set a few weeks ago.
As one of the early RED users and beeing a pro photographer I can only say, that the RED programm is killer in every way.
The RED one is cool but the new stuff will realy change the industry for good.
Just stay open minded and let it coming. Like Obama, the change is here.

Tim


I think we know more about the red and what red one can do than we do on the president elect - I am hoping not a red.
challenging and dynamic times for all  - life does not exist in a vacuum.
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hankg

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« Reply #73 on: November 14, 2008, 10:17:38 am »

Quote from: paulmoorestudio
I think we know more about the red and what red one can do than we do on the president elect - I am hoping not a red.

You must have been in a coma for the last two years.

As to the RED it will initially only be cost competitive for those that require video. However more and more photographers are having to consider video as part of the imaging equation. RED is making great strides towards a digital capture device not hobbled by any legacy film architecture. Very exciting stuff.
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Hank Graber
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E_Edwards

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« Reply #74 on: November 14, 2008, 10:27:27 am »

When you talk to the gurus, they tell you advertising revenue will come from the internet, or cell phones hooked to the internet, etc. That print advertising is dying off.

There is no point in having hi resolution video if you can't use it to make good money. The Internet may be able to support the bandwidth that is required for smallish size video presentations, and that's here already, but as soon as you go bigger and complex, you encounter many problems that make me a little apprehensive. At least for now.

I noticed that many of the luxury goods sites that first embraced the video/flash technology and had the budget for it, have somehow gone back to more conventional stills, maybe with a little Flash thrown in, but keeping the video clips as something you can view as secondary links.

These are some of the possible problems that come to mind:

-Preloading. No-one has the patience for preloading  high quality, (and bigger size) video. Not commercially at least. You need instant hi quality play. Streaming is better but the resolution/size/compression suffer, cross fades or movement look patchy, compression is noticeable.

-Quite apart from bandwidth matters, your average computer can't handle video over the Internet or even locally too well. There are too many stalls and jerkiness and video cards can't cope too well. Commercially, a couple of little stalls and you've lost your viewer and possible client, it irritates so much.

People are already reluctant to change computers, they think that what they have is good enough, there is little appetite to upgrade.

-Cost of production. The average still picture is relatively cheap. However, video requires far more knowledge, equipment, post production, etc. things that cost quite a lot of money. For it to succeed and become the norm, it needs to be reasonably affordable to the advertisers and cheap to produce. The camera is probably the least expensive item. I'm thinking of the time it takes to film various scenes or takes, then the blending, special effects in post production and so on.

-Cell phones. Everybody is predicting a massive growth in advertising using these. And apparently in Japan, it's going very well. But I just can't see the thrill of looking at websites with movies on a tiny little screen. It's just not fun, novelty value perhaps, like with the iphone, soon you get bored, unless you are in your teens or completely brainwashed.

Before long, every single camera will be equipped with reasonable quality video, I wonder if people will become immune and start to think that it's all so easy, why pay so much when my liltle nephew can do just as well with his cam.

Anyway, this is just lose thoughts, open to everything, I want good evidence to be convinced that it will all take off.

As for the Red, I like the idea of innovation, modularity, quality and reasonable prices, my first impression though, is that it looks a bit bulky.

Edward
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hankg

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« Reply #75 on: November 14, 2008, 10:41:41 am »

Quote from: E_Edwards
When you talk to the gurus, they tell you advertising revenue will come from the internet, or cell phones hooked to the internet, etc. That print advertising is dying off.


The current state of the economy is likely to put a brake on the rate of change. Retailers online and off will be cutting back and the rate at which consumers upgrade computers and bandwith providers upgrade infrastructure will temporarily slow down significantly.

I think the watch word for the near term is doing more with what you have and not incurring any debt so you can ride out whatever is coming down the pike. So I don't expect RED as innovative as it is will be having a near term impact on still photography. More companies are likely to be cutting back and looking for good enough cheaper solutions. Not a great environment for expensive cutting edge solutions.
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paulmoorestudio

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« Reply #76 on: November 14, 2008, 11:06:27 am »

Quote from: hankg
You must have been in a coma for the last two years.

As to the RED it will initially only be cost competitive for those that require video. However more and more photographers are having to consider video as part of the imaging equation. RED is making great strides towards a digital capture device not hobbled by any legacy film architecture. Very exciting stuff.

 and you must have had your head in the clouds the last 2 years, come on, its time take the double fog filters off.

but I can agree with you on the red camera system, it is exciting
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hankg

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« Reply #77 on: November 14, 2008, 11:53:39 am »

Quote from: paulmoorestudio
and you must have had your head in the clouds the last 2 years, come on, its time take the double fog filters off.

but I can agree with you on the red camera system, it is exciting


There are plenty of sites were you can discuss politics. This is a discussion about a video/still camera in a section about MF cameras on a PHOTO site. This is not the place to inject your political 'concerns' about our president elect or anything else concerning your or my political views.

It was a mistake to respond to your initial stupid cheap shot and I will pass on hijacking the thread by going any further with this.

Back on topic I'm glad to see a truly innovative company in this space.
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Hank Graber
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mtomalty

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« Reply #78 on: November 14, 2008, 12:42:15 pm »

Quote
The Hassy File has a bit mor DR and has a bigger resolution, but the RED File looked as good as the Hassy stuff on
the laptops on set. You can use a RED still up to A3 maybe A2.

Tim,

Could a RED still file be used,without significant massaging, in a typical full or single page
magazine ad?

What are the dimensions of a RED file after Raw conversion?


Mark
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rainer_v

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« Reply #79 on: November 14, 2008, 02:23:33 pm »

i think red is showing in many ways good ideas and future pointing strategies. it looks to mee as some markets ( fashion ) could become hard markets in the near future for the mf companies.
getting more and more pressure from the lo-end ( canon sony and so on ) and starting to become pressure from the hi-end the remaining market space will decrease even more than it already did.
although it doesnt look as the  new red offers will be "the" mf killer, but maybe they are on the way to become it soon time later in the overnext generation.
the system together with the clear product and selling politics looks by far more modern and logic than most mf offers.
at the same time a good ( and last ? ) chance to learn the lesson for the existing "established" companies, maybe they realise whats going on, maybe not.
in any case i am not sure if its so clever to publish the road map two years in advantage, although the red guys seem to do a great job they will not have such different problems than all the software/ computer industry suffers from ... this means at first promises, than delay, finally less than promised features, than bugs.
i dont believe in any promises from any manufactor till i havent finished my first production with the promised tool.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 02:25:22 pm by rainer_v »
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