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Author Topic: Rhe RED Med format  (Read 77809 times)

Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2008, 03:18:30 pm »

Quote from: Misirlou
You're positive the 1DsMk5 won't shoot HD video?

Indeed it might - if fact I would say will

now that could be a problem for Red


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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2008, 03:27:40 pm »

This should wake up the MF and DSLR manufactuers..

[attachment=9683:red.jpg]

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

RobertJ

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« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2008, 03:33:27 pm »

Quote from: Misirlou
You're positive the 1DsMk5 won't shoot HD video?

It will, but it will most likely only be 1080P, and be recorded with a compressed format, like the 5D2.  It won't take advantage of the full-resolution of the sensor in the video mode like all of the RED modules do.

All RED has to do to compete with a 1DsMk5 is to come up with a new "brain" module.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 03:34:21 pm by T-1000 »
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Imaginara

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« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2008, 03:39:32 pm »

Quote from: Robin Balas
SUM 51.500$ Almost like a MFDB system here in Norway...
So will I get one? YES!
MHO

If you have to pay 352 327 NOK for a medium format digital back system you need to take a trip to Sweden and get it for less than half that

But ofcourse, if you need to shoot video and still all the time, this sytem will basically remove two high-end very expensive systems for you. That would make much more sense. Provided you make enough money on doing both all the time that you need to actually purchase both system.

I guess we'll all see in the future. If nothing else maybe it shakes up the market a bit. It definately can do with some shaking
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2008, 03:39:53 pm »

Quote from: T-1000
It will, but it will most likely only be 1080P, and be recorded with a compressed format, like the 5D2.  It won't take advantage of the full-resolution of the sensor in the video mode like all of the RED modules do.

All RED has to do to compete with a 1DsMk5 is to come up with a new "brain" module.

Who knows or actually cares

I cant see the problem of getting a 10FPS camera like the D3 up to 30 or 60 FPs in mirror lock mode using 2010/12 buffering technology and write speeds

not that I undersatnd technology (and dont want to)

I just think canon will make better still cameras than red in 2010 - if anyone wants  a still camera

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Tim Lüdin

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« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2008, 04:00:47 pm »

I use a RED since January. In fact my partner and I have two now.
Ever  since I was very impressed by its still frame quality.
2 weeks ago, we shot a big comercial for a telecom company here in switzerland.
The ad-agency also booked a still photographer for the prinst stuff. He used his hassy 39mp.
During the shooting the customer checked my laptop with the RED files. I was constantly rendering some still frames and quicktimes
to give the agency some stuff to feel good about.
The agency and the customer coundn't believe what they saw. Even the still photographer (I'm one too) was totaly blown away by
the RED stills.
During lunch break the whole set was discussing the future of still and motion photography.
I told them that the epic will come out next year and about the rumors etc.
From then on the still photographer was joking about learning the motion camera work or he might be out of work...

Dont start to pick my writing apart. All I want to say is "the change is here". Like I said it months before. Faster than we all thougt.
By the way, the ad-angency was Jung von Matt. The best agency in the german speaking part of Europe.
The photographer was one of the best in Switzerland.
So this shows that also these big pros can see it coming and they like the idea of shooting high-end (midformat) and high-end motion with just one cam. Not ideal for everyone, but great for the ad shooters.

And dont question RED to much. They will deliver. They did before.
Jim, Graeme Nattress (is posting here) and the team will pull it off again.
They have the best customer service I know to date. They respond quickly as hell. Now think Hassy, Phase etc....

Interesting times, crazy times.

Tim
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gwhitf

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« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2008, 04:28:47 pm »

Quote from: Tim Lüdin
From then on the still photographer was joking about learning the motion camera work or he might be out of work...

I would think a fashion photographer would love something like this -- just turn the Talent loose and let them work. Zillions of wonderful frames.

I wonder about the shutter system -- so this means HMI for everything? No strobe?

And what about shallow focus, shooting wide open, is the viewfinder good enough to really see the focus wide open?

Can't imagine storing (or editing) that many frames though; don't forget to throw in an extra $25k for a couple of Apple XServes for storage.

And can you imagine the edit for the still frame? "Hey Bob, we've spent a couple hours on this one shot, editing, and we've got it narrowed down to 4,804 frames that are contenders; tonight might be another late night; might want to order some more Starbucks..."
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Graeme Nattress

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« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2008, 04:29:18 pm »

Working hard as we speak.....

Doing full sensor at a movie fps for maybe over an hour or two of recording is a non-trivial task. It's also completely different to recording a short burst of stills. For motion, timing has to be precise over that length of record, you  can't wait a fraction here or there while a buffer empties or a card rights. It's either real-time or it's not. There's no in between.

The other factor is the sensor skew that especially Nikon shows. Canon has it to an extent. RED uses a CMOS rolling shutter also, but it's much less still again on the skew. Currently the Nikon D90's is practically unusable (in my biassed opinion) and shows severe scaling artifacts taking the full sensor image down to 720p to add insult to injury. This is the difference in a sensor designed primarily for stills with a physical shutter, compared to a camera designed for motion use.

To keep the data rates manageable, we use the REDCODE RAW compression,  which keeps the sensor data raw for post flexibility, but uses wavelet based lossy, but visually lossless compression. That is how we can write the current 4k files at up to 30fps onto a fast compact flash card (until it's full) or onto a small RAID drive or RAM pack for a longer time.

I hope that explains some of the complexities....

Graeme
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GiorgioNiro

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« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2008, 04:59:46 pm »

WoW, this is something to think about.
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Mark_Tuttle

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« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2008, 05:51:01 pm »

Well, I suppose if they aren't coming out for another year the billionaire will have an opportunity to change the website to some design that doesn't require a 30" monitor in portrait position and adjust the product name to something that doesn't sound like it is from "Pinocchio".  How much will they make on black t-shirts that proudly proclaim in red letters, "Ask Me About My Monstro"
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Mark Tuttle
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witz

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« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2008, 07:31:19 pm »

ok....

I'm selling everything I own....

putting all the money into apple and google stock.....

going into self induced coma for 2 years......

and when I wake up I'm going to cash out the stocks and buy that 6X17 epic and a hybrid 911 Porsche.

Can somebody feed my dogs for me?
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thsinar

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« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2008, 07:42:31 pm »

 

Quote from: witz
ok....

going into self induced coma for 2 years......

Can somebody feed my dogs for me?
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Thierry Hagenauer
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2008, 08:25:03 pm »

Quote from: witz
ok....

I'm selling everything I own....

putting all the money into apple and google stock.....

going into self induced coma for 2 years......

If all of us do that... who is going to advertize on Google???...  

Cheers,
Bernard

bradleygibson

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« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2008, 08:27:00 pm »

Quote from: Misirlou
You're positive the 1DsMk5 won't shoot HD video?

You're right--it probably will.  1080p, though.
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bradleygibson

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« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2008, 08:31:16 pm »

Quote from: Graeme Nattress
Working hard as we speak.....

Doing full sensor at a movie fps for maybe over an hour or two of recording is a non-trivial task. It's also completely different to recording a short burst of stills. For motion, timing has to be precise over that length of record, you  can't wait a fraction here or there while a buffer empties or a card rights. It's either real-time or it's not. There's no in between.

The other factor is the sensor skew that especially Nikon shows. Canon has it to an extent. RED uses a CMOS rolling shutter also, but it's much less still again on the skew. Currently the Nikon D90's is practically unusable (in my biassed opinion) and shows severe scaling artifacts taking the full sensor image down to 720p to add insult to injury. This is the difference in a sensor designed primarily for stills with a physical shutter, compared to a camera designed for motion use.

To keep the data rates manageable, we use the REDCODE RAW compression,  which keeps the sensor data raw for post flexibility, but uses wavelet based lossy, but visually lossless compression. That is how we can write the current 4k files at up to 30fps onto a fast compact flash card (until it's full) or onto a small RAID drive or RAM pack for a longer time.

I hope that explains some of the complexities....

Graeme

Three questions for you:

Do the Epic FF35 and 645 models support AF?  With Canon/Nikon/Mamiya (AF) lenses?

What is the flash sync for these models when shooting a still frame?

Very nice work!  You're definitely turning a lot of heads.

-Brad
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 08:34:14 pm by bradleygibson »
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thsinar

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« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2008, 08:40:05 pm »

... Those who feed the dogs!

 

Thierry


Quote from: BernardLanguillier
If all of us do that... who is going to advertize on Google???...  

Cheers,
Bernard
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Thierry Hagenauer
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bcooter

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« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2008, 12:12:37 am »

Quote from: gwhitf
I would think a fashion photographer would love something like this -- just turn the Talent loose and let them work. Zillions of wonderful frames.

I wonder about the shutter system -- so this means HMI for everything? No strobe?

And what about shallow focus, shooting wide open, is the viewfinder good enough to really see the focus wide open?

Can't imagine storing (or editing) that many frames though; don't forget to throw in an extra $25k for a couple of Apple XServes for storage.

And can you imagine the edit for the still frame? "Hey Bob, we've spent a couple hours on this one shot, editing, and we've got it narrowed down to 4,804 frames that are contenders; tonight might be another late night; might want to order some more Starbucks..."

IF RED becomes a medium format killer camera is a few years away and remains to be seen, but what is interesting is that a start from scratch cinema camera at the high end, comes in at roughly the same price as a top of the line digital back.

It is a new way of thinking and could really open up some possiblities for some very different still photographs.  Whose to say in two years we won't have 50fps strobes that sync to the cameras or for that matter different daylight continuous sources.

The cool part is the acceptance of different lens mounts.  The cinema world has had that for years and makes sense in a professional camera, still or motion.

Regardless it's impressive what RED has done from a clean sheet.  

As far as storing and editing there probably isn't  that much of a difference from storing thousands of 40mb raw files and trying to edit through while waiting for the previews to build.

I've edited 1080 footage, looking for small reference stills (granted a 2k camera is much different than a 7k camera) but scrolling through even quicktime is to find a frame is as fast as any browser and in some ways much easier.

If the RED does come to market as a medium format camera (and RED has done pretty much everything they've announced) then I think we will see a big change in the way professional cameras and made, sold, marketed and serviced.

The modular idea is smart and allows you to build and customize a system directly for your needs or change it as new projects and disciplines come along.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 12:24:05 am by bcooter »
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gwhitf

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« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2008, 01:05:36 am »

God, they are going thru the Kleenex tonight in the offices of Phase, Leaf, Hassie, and Sinar. Shedding tears by the gallon. Here is the worst economy in eighty years, and everyone's putting off buying a new MF back, waiting for this mess to blow over, and then here comes Red today, promising a camera (maybe) in a year or two, so that means that puts a hold on even more purchases, and for a longer period of time. Everyone now, holding onto their wallets, waiting for Red to come out with this Robocam.

I swear, if I was president, I'd make me a law that said, "You can't announce anything unless you can ship it within a month". Because it just puts a halt on spending. Everybody waiting waiting waiting.

Or, maybe it's just karma coming back at Phase and Sinar. They are the kings of the Wimpy Hamburger Promise, announcing things months and months in advance, except this time, with Red, it came back and bit them in the ass.

My prediction: Look for very appealing deals come February or March.

I'm going to announce a new style of photography to the Art Director world. I won't have one, but I'll just announce it. Let's just watch and see if those P.O.'s to other photographers just immediately don't get signed, and "the job goes on hold". Actually, my whole new business will be to just announce things, just so I can stop the world.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 01:13:58 am by gwhitf »
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PeterA

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« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2008, 01:45:09 am »

Quote from: gwhitf
God, they are going thru the Kleenex tonight in the offices of Phase, Leaf, Hassie, and Sinar. Shedding tears by the gallon. Here is the worst economy in eighty years, and everyone's putting off buying a new MF back, waiting for this mess to blow over, and then here comes Red today, promising a camera (maybe) in a year or two, so that means that puts a hold on even more purchases, and for a longer period of time. Everyone now, holding onto their wallets, waiting for Red to come out with this Robocam.

I swear, if I was president, I'd make me a law that said, "You can't announce anything unless you can ship it within a month". Because it just puts a halt on spending. Everybody waiting waiting waiting.

Or, maybe it's just karma coming back at Phase and Sinar. They are the kings of the Wimpy Hamburger Promise, announcing things months and months in advance, except this time, with Red, it came back and bit them in the ass.

My prediction: Look for very appealing deals come February or March.

I'm going to announce a new style of photography to the Art Director world. I won't have one, but I'll just announce it. Let's just watch and see if those P.O.'s to other photographers just immediately don't get signed, and "the job goes on hold". Actually, my whole new business will be to just announce things, just so I can stop the world.


You can buy a Red 'one' today and get used to what matters the work-flow - the company will actually reimburse your full money spent against the new models announced - no ifs buts or maybes. teh company has earned enormous credibility amongst its customer base for being customer friendly and honest to deal with. Teh modular designs announced - are nothing short of revolutionary. Sorry that you feel a little peeved - but some people actually like to know what is coming so that they can plan accordingly.

I like the whole business model of this company. Here is our website - here are the prices you buy from us. You can rent the stuff from pro supply shops and if they try and rip you off - let us know - we will fix it. Iy you are too mouch of a pain in the arse - we wont deal with you.

What is not to like?
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thsinar

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« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2008, 02:15:26 am »

FYI:

- arTec announced as new product end of June '08, announced to be shipped in October '08 ---> is available and shipped in October '08

- Sinar Hy6 65 & Sinarback eSprit 65 announced as new product end of August '08, announced to be shipping at Photokina ---> is shipping by November 30th

1 Month delay for the Hy6 65 and the Sinarback eSprit 65: is this a "Wimpy Hamburger Promise"?

 

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: gwhitf
Or, maybe it's just karma coming back at ... Sinar. They are the kings of the Wimpy Hamburger Promise, announcing things months and months in advance, except this time, with Red, it came back and bit them in the ass.

My prediction: Look for very appealing deals come February or March.
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Thierry Hagenauer
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