Topic: wifi in phase one backs??? (Read 7114 times)

heinrichvoelkel · « **on:** October 29, 2008, 03:00:35 pm »

ok, I posted my question before in an other thread, but received no answer so far. contacted phase by email...no reply...so I try here...

in the light of firewire becoming obsolete any time soon (maybe...see apple MB) what can we expect from the backmakers. especially P1...as a wifi connection would be great to transmit previews to monitors/iphones/....

Mark_Tuttle · « **Reply #1 on:** October 29, 2008, 04:23:13 pm »

Quote from: heinrichvoelkel

ok, I posted my question before in an other thread, but received no answer so far. contacted phase by email...no reply...so I try here...

in the light of firewire becoming obsolete any time soon (maybe...see apple MB) what can we expect from the backmakers. especially P1...as a wifi connection would be great to transmit previews to monitors/iphones/....

From the Phase One User Forum, this month.

"The long and the short of it is that there currently does not exist a standardized technology which is fast enough to transfer the vast amount of data required by a digital back.

As a good example is the solution provided by Nikon and Canon.
Anyone that has been shooting with this knows that RAW files is a no go. It is simply far to slow, not even fullres JPG is fast enough. Small JPG is ok.

And what we want to do is to transfer a P65+ file at one file per second. That equation simply does not work with Wi-Fi connections.

We are looking in to solution that is better then this, when it will be available.. I do not know.

_________________
Kind Regards
Ulf Liljegren
Phase One"

http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php...;hilit=wireless

Dan Wells · « **Reply #2 on:** October 29, 2008, 04:34:37 pm »

I don't know how possible this would be, but I can't see a major technical barrier to a FireWire to Wifi converter... USB Wifi adapters exist, and FireWire is "smarter" than USB. FireWire is already capable of running Ethernet protocols over FireWire cabling, so broadcasting Ethernet protocols over a device attached to a FW port shouldn't be too hard (it would take a firmware update to the camera, and probably a bridge chip in the adapter). The DroboShare and most advanced routers will do this with a USB disk (disk to router via USB, router shares disk over WiFi), and FireWire should, if anything, be easier... The fact that the camera uses custom drivers would mean that the adapter needed to know about the camera (not hard, but it would need custom firmware that had a Phase back driver rather than a generic hard disk driver) - I suspect these gizmos all run some embedded form of Linux underneath it all, so if anyone has a back tethering under Linux, 90% of the work is done. I wonder if it would be even simpler on a Hasselblad, because of the databus - without knowing anything about that bus connector, I don't know if it is there with a WiFi or Bluetooth adapter in mind, or whether it is a slow connector (too slow for images) useful for GPSs and PocketWizards only - Paul? David?

-Dan

Dan Wells · « **Reply #3 on:** October 29, 2008, 04:49:35 pm »

[quote name='Mark_Tuttle' date='Oct 29 2008, 04:23 PM' post='232907']
From the Phase One User Forum, this month.

"The long and the short of it is that there currently does not exist a standardized technology which is fast enough to transfer the vast amount of data required by a digital back.

As a good example is the solution provided by Nikon and Canon.
Anyone that has been shooting with this knows that RAW files is a no go. It is simply far to slow, not even fullres JPG is fast enough. Small JPG is ok.

And what we want to do is to transfer a P65+ file at one file per second. That equation simply does not work with Wi-Fi connections.

We are looking in to solution that is better then this, when it will be available.. I do not know.

_________________
Kind Regards
Ulf Liljegren
Phase One"

What the HECK can transfer 100 megaBYTES per second over a radio link??? Even 802.11n is only around 100 megaBITS per second effective throughput. Ulf's adapter would have to be about 8x that fast - very complicated to make, and you don't even want to think about the amount of spectrum it would chew up... I'd guess it would have to be up in the 10 gHz range somewhere to find a clear enough channel - experimental UltraWideBand and Extremely High Frequency data links (many systems are both) may be able to run that fast, but they're still not really commercial.

-Dan

Dustbak · « **Reply #4 on:** October 29, 2008, 04:54:58 pm »

I would settle for a downrezzed JPG version. 1600x1200 would be just fine. These are about 1MB big which would be perfectly doable with wifi. Write the RAW to CF and transmit a JPG to laptop/PC/PDA. The back would need to be able to generate sized JPG's in the back itself but Sinar has already proven that that is possible with their Esprit65.

heinrichvoelkel · « **Reply #5 on:** October 29, 2008, 05:15:14 pm »

Quote from: Dustbak

I would settle for a downrezzed JPG version. 1600x1200 would be just fine. These are about 1MB big which would be perfectly doable with wifi. Write the RAW to CF and transmit a JPG to laptop/PC/PDA. The back would need to be able to generate sized JPG's in the back itself but Sinar has already proven that that is possible with their Esprit65.

I'm with you on this one...on board processed jpeg is good enough for me...anyway...P1 stated before it is possible and will be integrated...without further notice they dropped it...now it is us chasing them for the info...

gwhitf · « **Reply #6 on:** October 29, 2008, 05:31:43 pm »

Quote from: heinrichvoelkel

I'm with you on this one...on board processed jpeg is good enough for me...anyway...P1 stated before it is possible and will be integrated...without further notice they dropped it...now it is us chasing them for the info...

This would be the exact workflow model now employed by many people with the 1ds3: Write the RAW to card, and send the tiny JPG to the computer for client inspection and approval. I have been using this workflow, (with USB, no WIFI), and it works great. Almost instantaneous transfer of the small JPG to the MacBook Pro, via EOS Utility.

(You know we're in trouble when we start citing Canon software as exemplary within the industry...)

Eurotographer · « **Reply #7 on:** October 29, 2008, 05:56:08 pm »

I guess the important question is, Why was it promised to us nearly 2 years ago if they weren't even close to a solution? The response now is that they're waiting for some type of breakthrough??? Unreal what Phase will promise and then not deliver!!

pixjohn · « **Reply #8 on:** October 29, 2008, 07:56:46 pm »

Not sure the info is 100% but it did come from a PhaseOne Rep. They have a working prototype sitting on the shelf. It has a 6 mile range. (yes he said 6 miles) but it will not get FTC approval at that range. The first problem the company Phase hired to design it, dropped the ball and could not develop a small enough unit to fit on the camera. PhaseOne techs said they can work on what they have but they don't have the time or man power to do it, I guess they are to busy working on the P65+.

David Grover / Capture One · « **Reply #9 on:** October 29, 2008, 07:59:02 pm »

Quote from: Dan Wells

I don't know how possible this would be, but I can't see a major technical barrier to a FireWire to Wifi converter... USB Wifi adapters exist, and FireWire is "smarter" than USB. FireWire is already capable of running Ethernet protocols over FireWire cabling, so broadcasting Ethernet protocols over a device attached to a FW port shouldn't be too hard (it would take a firmware update to the camera, and probably a bridge chip in the adapter). The DroboShare and most advanced routers will do this with a USB disk (disk to router via USB, router shares disk over WiFi), and FireWire should, if anything, be easier... The fact that the camera uses custom drivers would mean that the adapter needed to know about the camera (not hard, but it would need custom firmware that had a Phase back driver rather than a generic hard disk driver) - I suspect these gizmos all run some embedded form of Linux underneath it all, so if anyone has a back tethering under Linux, 90% of the work is done. I wonder if it would be even simpler on a Hasselblad, because of the databus - without knowing anything about that bus connector, I don't know if it is there with a WiFi or Bluetooth adapter in mind, or whether it is a slow connector (too slow for images) useful for GPSs and PocketWizards only - Paul? David?

-Dan

The Databus links, Lens, Viewfinder, Body, Sensor Unit so in theory anything is possible. Does partly depend on the bus speed of the connector which I don't have to hand right now!

Best

David

hilljf · « **Reply #10 on:** October 29, 2008, 09:25:08 pm »

Over a year ago, when I had a chance to meet the Phase CTO in NYC he showed an early version. It was based on a spread spectrum (WIMAX) type technology that was way faster than 802.11n. My guess is that they are stuck in the hell-hole of regulatory approval. I wish it could be released. I need it now.

John

pixjohn · « **Reply #11 on:** October 29, 2008, 09:43:57 pm »

I would not hold my breath on this. It sounds years away.

Quote from: hilljf

Over a year ago, when I had a chance to meet the Phase CTO in NYC he showed an early version. It was based on a spread spectrum (WIMAX) type technology that was way faster than 802.11n. My guess is that they are stuck in the hell-hole of regulatory approval. I wish it could be released. I need it now.

John

Eurotographer · « **Reply #12 on:** October 29, 2008, 10:50:29 pm »

Quote from: pixjohn

Not sure the info is 100% but it did come from a PhaseOne Rep. They have a working prototype sitting on the shelf. It has a 6 mile range. (yes he said 6 miles) but it will not get FTC approval at that range. The first problem the company Phase hired to design it, dropped the ball and could not develop a small enough unit to fit on the camera. PhaseOne techs said they can work on what they have but they don't have the time or man power to do it, I guess they are to busy working on the P65+.

Such BS! You're gonna tell me that phaseone has the ability right now to transmit files in the neighborhood of 50-60mb and it is sitting on a shelf??? I'm sure the US army would be pretty interested in such technology!!

PatrikR · « **Reply #13 on:** October 30, 2008, 05:20:03 am »

Quote from: Eurotographer

Such BS! You're gonna tell me that phaseone has the ability right now to transmit files in the neighborhood of 50-60mb and it is sitting on a shelf??? I'm sure the US army would be pretty interested in such technology!!

That's what Phase One rep told me last week too.

Doug Peterson · « **Reply #14 on:** October 30, 2008, 08:16:31 am »

Quote from: Eurotographer

Such BS! You're gonna tell me that phaseone has the ability right now to transmit files in the neighborhood of 50-60mb and it is sitting on a shelf??? I'm sure the US army would be pretty interested in such technology!!

If you take enough of the spectrum up and include enough bandwidth on the processing units on the transmitter and receiver you can transmit any arbitrarily large file at any arbitrary speed. Whether you can do so without violating just about every law governing the use of the spectrum is an entirely different question. Those laws are there for a very very good reason. Sitting at your desk I bet you have at least three wireless devices (cell, wifi, wireless keyboard, wireless land-line phone) which is only possible because each device is severely limited in its wireless transmission.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
Personal Portfolio

heinrichvoelkel · « **Reply #15 on:** October 30, 2008, 10:26:44 am »

Quote from: dougpetersonci

If you take enough of the spectrum up and include enough bandwidth on the processing units on the transmitter and receiver you can transmit any arbitrarily large file at any arbitrary speed. Whether you can do so without violating just about every law governing the use of the spectrum is an entirely different question. Those laws are there for a very very good reason. Sitting at your desk I bet you have at least three wireless devices (cell, wifi, wireless keyboard, wireless land-line phone) which is only possible because each device is severely limited in its wireless transmission.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
Personal Portfolio

okay Doug, but what about the promised wifi...there was a roadmap for it...

hilljf · « **Reply #16 on:** October 30, 2008, 04:10:43 pm »

In my prior note, I meant to say UWB (Ultra Wide Band) rather than WMAX. The technology to move massive amounts of data at high speeds is available anthough not packaged for the purpose we want yet. Take the example of another high bandwidth application, wireless HDMI. Here is a link to a number of new products in this space.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cable...mi-takes-flight

I do wish they would give us an indication of what is going on with this product.

John

yaya · « **Reply #17 on:** October 30, 2008, 05:42:22 pm »

Quote from: hilljf

In my prior note, I meant to say UWB (Ultra Wide Band) rather than WMAX. The technology to move massive amounts of data at high speeds is available anthough not packaged for the purpose we want yet. Take the example of another high bandwidth application, wireless HDMI. Here is a link to a number of new products in this space.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cable...mi-takes-flight

I do wish they would give us an indication of what is going on with this product.

John

WHDMI technology for new consumer products is coming from HERE

heinrichvoelkel · « **Reply #18 on:** November 01, 2008, 03:41:31 pm »

Quote from: yaya

WHDMI technology for new consumer products is coming from HERE

thank you yair

heinrichvoelkel · « **Reply #19 on:** November 01, 2008, 03:46:10 pm »

If I would have started a thread talking about how great the Phase backs are, the P1 dealers of the year and the P1 reps would be all over the place, congratulating me and hugging me many times for my wise decision to buy into their chain of promises.

Author Topic: wifi in phase one backs??? (Read 7114 times)

yaya