Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: heinrichvoelkel on October 29, 2008, 03:00:35 pm
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ok, I posted my question before in an other thread, but received no answer so far. contacted phase by email...no reply...so I try here...
in the light of firewire becoming obsolete any time soon (maybe...see apple MB) what can we expect from the backmakers. especially P1...as a wifi connection would be great to transmit previews to monitors/iphones/....
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ok, I posted my question before in an other thread, but received no answer so far. contacted phase by email...no reply...so I try here...
in the light of firewire becoming obsolete any time soon (maybe...see apple MB) what can we expect from the backmakers. especially P1...as a wifi connection would be great to transmit previews to monitors/iphones/....
From the Phase One User Forum, this month.
"The long and the short of it is that there currently does not exist a standardized technology which is fast enough to transfer the vast amount of data required by a digital back.
As a good example is the solution provided by Nikon and Canon.
Anyone that has been shooting with this knows that RAW files is a no go. It is simply far to slow, not even fullres JPG is fast enough. Small JPG is ok.
And what we want to do is to transfer a P65+ file at one file per second. That equation simply does not work with Wi-Fi connections.
We are looking in to solution that is better then this, when it will be available.. I do not know.
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Kind Regards
Ulf Liljegren
Phase One"
http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php...;hilit=wireless (http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5871&hilit=wireless)
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I don't know how possible this would be, but I can't see a major technical barrier to a FireWire to Wifi converter... USB Wifi adapters exist, and FireWire is "smarter" than USB. FireWire is already capable of running Ethernet protocols over FireWire cabling, so broadcasting Ethernet protocols over a device attached to a FW port shouldn't be too hard (it would take a firmware update to the camera, and probably a bridge chip in the adapter). The DroboShare and most advanced routers will do this with a USB disk (disk to router via USB, router shares disk over WiFi), and FireWire should, if anything, be easier... The fact that the camera uses custom drivers would mean that the adapter needed to know about the camera (not hard, but it would need custom firmware that had a Phase back driver rather than a generic hard disk driver) - I suspect these gizmos all run some embedded form of Linux underneath it all, so if anyone has a back tethering under Linux, 90% of the work is done. I wonder if it would be even simpler on a Hasselblad, because of the databus - without knowing anything about that bus connector, I don't know if it is there with a WiFi or Bluetooth adapter in mind, or whether it is a slow connector (too slow for images) useful for GPSs and PocketWizards only - Paul? David?
-Dan
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[quote name='Mark_Tuttle' date='Oct 29 2008, 04:23 PM' post='232907']
From the Phase One User Forum, this month.
"The long and the short of it is that there currently does not exist a standardized technology which is fast enough to transfer the vast amount of data required by a digital back.
As a good example is the solution provided by Nikon and Canon.
Anyone that has been shooting with this knows that RAW files is a no go. It is simply far to slow, not even fullres JPG is fast enough. Small JPG is ok.
And what we want to do is to transfer a P65+ file at one file per second. That equation simply does not work with Wi-Fi connections.
We are looking in to solution that is better then this, when it will be available.. I do not know.
_________________
Kind Regards
Ulf Liljegren
Phase One"
What the HECK can transfer 100 megaBYTES per second over a radio link??? Even 802.11n is only around 100 megaBITS per second effective throughput. Ulf's adapter would have to be about 8x that fast - very complicated to make, and you don't even want to think about the amount of spectrum it would chew up... I'd guess it would have to be up in the 10 gHz range somewhere to find a clear enough channel - experimental UltraWideBand and Extremely High Frequency data links (many systems are both) may be able to run that fast, but they're still not really commercial.
-Dan
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I would settle for a downrezzed JPG version. 1600x1200 would be just fine. These are about 1MB big which would be perfectly doable with wifi. Write the RAW to CF and transmit a JPG to laptop/PC/PDA. The back would need to be able to generate sized JPG's in the back itself but Sinar has already proven that that is possible with their Esprit65.
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I would settle for a downrezzed JPG version. 1600x1200 would be just fine. These are about 1MB big which would be perfectly doable with wifi. Write the RAW to CF and transmit a JPG to laptop/PC/PDA. The back would need to be able to generate sized JPG's in the back itself but Sinar has already proven that that is possible with their Esprit65.
I'm with you on this one...on board processed jpeg is good enough for me...anyway...P1 stated before it is possible and will be integrated...without further notice they dropped it...now it is us chasing them for the info...
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I'm with you on this one...on board processed jpeg is good enough for me...anyway...P1 stated before it is possible and will be integrated...without further notice they dropped it...now it is us chasing them for the info...
This would be the exact workflow model now employed by many people with the 1ds3: Write the RAW to card, and send the tiny JPG to the computer for client inspection and approval. I have been using this workflow, (with USB, no WIFI), and it works great. Almost instantaneous transfer of the small JPG to the MacBook Pro, via EOS Utility.
(You know we're in trouble when we start citing Canon software as exemplary within the industry...)
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I guess the important question is, Why was it promised to us nearly 2 years ago if they weren't even close to a solution? The response now is that they're waiting for some type of breakthrough??? Unreal what Phase will promise and then not deliver!!
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Not sure the info is 100% but it did come from a PhaseOne Rep. They have a working prototype sitting on the shelf. It has a 6 mile range. (yes he said 6 miles) but it will not get FTC approval at that range. The first problem the company Phase hired to design it, dropped the ball and could not develop a small enough unit to fit on the camera. PhaseOne techs said they can work on what they have but they don't have the time or man power to do it, I guess they are to busy working on the P65+.
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I don't know how possible this would be, but I can't see a major technical barrier to a FireWire to Wifi converter... USB Wifi adapters exist, and FireWire is "smarter" than USB. FireWire is already capable of running Ethernet protocols over FireWire cabling, so broadcasting Ethernet protocols over a device attached to a FW port shouldn't be too hard (it would take a firmware update to the camera, and probably a bridge chip in the adapter). The DroboShare and most advanced routers will do this with a USB disk (disk to router via USB, router shares disk over WiFi), and FireWire should, if anything, be easier... The fact that the camera uses custom drivers would mean that the adapter needed to know about the camera (not hard, but it would need custom firmware that had a Phase back driver rather than a generic hard disk driver) - I suspect these gizmos all run some embedded form of Linux underneath it all, so if anyone has a back tethering under Linux, 90% of the work is done. I wonder if it would be even simpler on a Hasselblad, because of the databus - without knowing anything about that bus connector, I don't know if it is there with a WiFi or Bluetooth adapter in mind, or whether it is a slow connector (too slow for images) useful for GPSs and PocketWizards only - Paul? David?
-Dan
The Databus links, Lens, Viewfinder, Body, Sensor Unit so in theory anything is possible. Does partly depend on the bus speed of the connector which I don't have to hand right now!
Best
David
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Over a year ago, when I had a chance to meet the Phase CTO in NYC he showed an early version. It was based on a spread spectrum (WIMAX) type technology that was way faster than 802.11n. My guess is that they are stuck in the hell-hole of regulatory approval. I wish it could be released. I need it now.
John
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I would not hold my breath on this. It sounds years away.
Over a year ago, when I had a chance to meet the Phase CTO in NYC he showed an early version. It was based on a spread spectrum (WIMAX) type technology that was way faster than 802.11n. My guess is that they are stuck in the hell-hole of regulatory approval. I wish it could be released. I need it now.
John
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Not sure the info is 100% but it did come from a PhaseOne Rep. They have a working prototype sitting on the shelf. It has a 6 mile range. (yes he said 6 miles) but it will not get FTC approval at that range. The first problem the company Phase hired to design it, dropped the ball and could not develop a small enough unit to fit on the camera. PhaseOne techs said they can work on what they have but they don't have the time or man power to do it, I guess they are to busy working on the P65+.
Such BS! You're gonna tell me that phaseone has the ability right now to transmit files in the neighborhood of 50-60mb and it is sitting on a shelf??? I'm sure the US army would be pretty interested in such technology!!
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Such BS! You're gonna tell me that phaseone has the ability right now to transmit files in the neighborhood of 50-60mb and it is sitting on a shelf??? I'm sure the US army would be pretty interested in such technology!!
That's what Phase One rep told me last week too.
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Such BS! You're gonna tell me that phaseone has the ability right now to transmit files in the neighborhood of 50-60mb and it is sitting on a shelf??? I'm sure the US army would be pretty interested in such technology!!
If you take enough of the spectrum up and include enough bandwidth on the processing units on the transmitter and receiver you can transmit any arbitrarily large file at any arbitrary speed. Whether you can do so without violating just about every law governing the use of the spectrum is an entirely different question. Those laws are there for a very very good reason. Sitting at your desk I bet you have at least three wireless devices (cell, wifi, wireless keyboard, wireless land-line phone) which is only possible because each device is severely limited in its wireless transmission.
Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com)
Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
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If you take enough of the spectrum up and include enough bandwidth on the processing units on the transmitter and receiver you can transmit any arbitrarily large file at any arbitrary speed. Whether you can do so without violating just about every law governing the use of the spectrum is an entirely different question. Those laws are there for a very very good reason. Sitting at your desk I bet you have at least three wireless devices (cell, wifi, wireless keyboard, wireless land-line phone) which is only possible because each device is severely limited in its wireless transmission.
Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com)
Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
okay Doug, but what about the promised wifi...there was a roadmap for it...
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In my prior note, I meant to say UWB (Ultra Wide Band) rather than WMAX. The technology to move massive amounts of data at high speeds is available anthough not packaged for the purpose we want yet. Take the example of another high bandwidth application, wireless HDMI. Here is a link to a number of new products in this space.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cable...mi-takes-flight (http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/wireless-hdmi-takes-flight)
I do wish they would give us an indication of what is going on with this product.
John
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In my prior note, I meant to say UWB (Ultra Wide Band) rather than WMAX. The technology to move massive amounts of data at high speeds is available anthough not packaged for the purpose we want yet. Take the example of another high bandwidth application, wireless HDMI. Here is a link to a number of new products in this space.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cable...mi-takes-flight (http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/wireless-hdmi-takes-flight)
I do wish they would give us an indication of what is going on with this product.
John
WHDMI technology for new consumer products is coming from HERE (http://www.amimon.com/)
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WHDMI technology for new consumer products is coming from HERE (http://www.amimon.com/)
thank you yair
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If I would have started a thread talking about how great the Phase backs are, the P1 dealers of the year and the P1 reps would be all over the place, congratulating me and hugging me many times for my wise decision to buy into their chain of promises.
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If I would have started a thread talking about how great the Phase backs are, the P1 dealers of the year and the P1 reps would be all over the place, congratulating me and hugging me many times for my wise decision to buy into their chain of promises.
Heinrich,
I know this is how you make your living, and it must be incredibly frustrating. But please understand that the alternative is for there not to be any talk at all about technologies which are being worked on.
Apple is facing the same challenge. When they were more of a nitch player they were generally very very silent on any upcoming products/technologies or changes. In the last two years they have started to make some information available in advance. This allows schools/companies/individuals to make better informed decisions, but of course the inevitable side effect was that they are sometimes wrong. They were late on leopard, late on the SDK for the iPhone, and now late on the push updates for the iPhone. It pisses people off, and very rightfully so. But I would rather have them be more open and sometimes be wrong then to have no information on what is coming.
(speaking about Capture Integration) We have hundreds of customers and we work very hard to consulate with them about what technologies, products, and workflows can have a meaningfully positive impact on their work. We're real people. I hope the forums don't mask the effort and sincerity with which we approach our work.
Sorry you got burned on the wireless.
Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com) | Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)