5D Mark II Announced!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DarkPenguin]

Will you use the HD video feature? There is no quality sound capture with it.

I don't pay much attention to such things but since I'll likely have one of these I have to ask what qualifies as quality sound capture and how far away is the 5D from that?

[Steve Kerman]

For example:
Will you use the HD video feature? There is no quality sound capture with it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222374\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Two points:

1. I don't think the 5d2's sound quality has yet been established.

2. I imagine whatever the sound quality turns out to be, it is adequate for recording a SMPTE time-code track for synchronization with whatever audio recording equipment you're using.

[BFoto]

Each camera has its own target market.

For example:
Will you use the HD video feature? There is no quality sound capture with it.
Will you use the higher ISO settings?
Will you buy the Wi-Fi grip to transmit images to a base computer?
Will you use the IR receptor that is designed to work with Canon Speedlights?

Just these features alone tell me Canon has designed this camera for the wedding & event photographer. It appears to be able to provide an excellent workflow for someone in that business.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222374\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well that's a double edge sword. I don't fit into this supposed group.

For me
I don't need HD video
Higher ISO - great
Wi-fi grip - good for tethered
IR receptor - neither here nor there

21mpix full frame - fantastic

Mirror lock up ?
Weather sealed ?
8fps ?

oh..thats the 1DsIII which can't afford. It seems that some of these features are flag ship features, yet simple, functional and most common work flow option are neglected!

[DarkPenguin]

According to phil askey the recording is at 44.1 16-bit stereo.

Provided you don't use the bulit in mic.

Two points:

1. I don't think the 5d2's sound quality has yet been established.

2. I imagine whatever the sound quality turns out to be, it is adequate to record a SMPTE time-code track for synchronization with whatever audio recording equipment you're using.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222397\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[DarkPenguin]

Well that's a double edge sword. I don't fit into this supposed group.

For me
I don't need HD video
Higher ISO - great
Wi-fi grip - good for tethered
IR receptor - neither here nor there

21mpix full frame - fantastic

Mirror lock up ?
Weather sealed ?
8fps ?

oh..thats the 1DsIII which can't afford. It seems that some of these features are flag ship features, yet simple, functional and most common work flow option are neglected!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222398\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd have to hunt it down (I believe it was a Dpreview staff member post in their forums) but supposedly the weather sealing is improved quite a bit on the 5D mk II with canon reps actually talking about something like 10ml of rain in some short time period.  So, you can't dunk it but you can shoot in the rain.

Not that the 1D series worked out all that well for people on MR's last Antarctic trip if I remember the reports correctly.

And for the umpteenth time there is an effective mirror lockup button on all the canon dslr's with live view.  Punch 1 button to go into live view.  Boom.  Mirror locks up.

[JohnKoerner]

Hey Jack-John or whatever your name is,
Why don't you take my advice and bugger off to dpreview where you belong? You'll get much of what you're looking for in there. Everybody will be happy then.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222358\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Nikos-Nikon or whatever your name is.

Why don't you just pipe down about me period? You aren't in a position to give me advice, and if we were able to conduct this discussion personally, I promise you would be a much more pleasant individual towards me. You keep trying to come at me on a personal level, and I am not sure why. All because I originally spoke to you about how the 5DMkII would hurt the sales of the D700? Was that really something so terrible over which to keep crying to me incessantly? My big troll and transgression here was I that made a playful offer to bet you "who's prices" would in fact drop, now that this 5DMkII camera has come out---Canon's or Nikon's---and you have been making this personal ever since.

Is this something really to get personal with me about, my opinion that Nikon's price will go down? Does the thought of this hurt you so much that I must be "banished forever" to DPReview for suggesting it?  

I am a pretty happy-go-lucky person, and I thought I had placed enough "smiley-faces" on all of my posts to indicate a light-hearted take on all this (which, after all, is just some gossip about a new camera and nothing to get riled-up about). My original intentions were nothing but harmless fun and interest about this new camera. However, judging by every one your own "dour, sour-puss posts" you don't seem to have a sense of humor or that you will be happy with much of anything regarding this new camera or a discussion about it.

Now, as far as I can tell, you are the one who keeps piping-up to me, so maybe you should take your own advice and go on over to DPReview, since you seem to know its climate so well.

If you don't want to do this, then kindly pipe-down, sir. Just ignore me and I will ignore you. If you're in this "upper class" you seem to think you are, then let's see if you are mature enough to keep this discussion only about this camera (or its potential rivals), and if you really do have the strength to do this. Because I myself would rather discuss (or read others' comments about) this camera than your incessant, childish, crybaby whining at me, just because I made a bet to you about whose sales I thought would plummet now. Please get over it and stop snivelling. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings so; I was just being playful.

Thank you---and here: have a Lifesaver  

Jack




.

[aaykay]

The 1Ds3 is also twice as durable as the 5D2; 300,000 shutter actuations as opposed to the 5D2's 150,000. That makes the resale value of the 1Ds3 higher.

A replacement shutter costs what ?  $250 ?  

Not bad for such a "discounted" price !

[aaykay]

Even though I'm a little suprised that they've released something that feature packed for so little in relation... Surely it doesn't cost an extra 5K for the 1DsIII to be made. ^_~

As I mentioned in the other post prior to the release of either the A900 or the 5DII, the ONLY reason for Canon coming out with a 21MP 5D, is the long shadow cast on it, by the A900, which obviously comes with I.S in the body (the 50mm, the 85mm, the 135mm primes and the 24-70 f/2.8, the 35mm primes, the 16-35 f/2.8 etc are all stabilized), 100% viewfinder that is larger than even the Nikon D3 or Canon 1DSMKII, Dual-memory slots (CF and MS) and the presence of ultra-high-end Carl Zeiss Auto-focus lenses in the range.  

Canon simply did not want to rest on their past laurels, since they know that if they leave a model like the 5D (introduced during the 20D era, with single Digic II chip, no less !), with absolutely no change for 3 long years (since then 30D, 40D and 50D have come into the APS-C range, since there was APS-C competition around), the competition will not treat them too nicely.  Bottomline, competition spurs innovation and also price reductions.

No, it does not cost an extra 5K for the 1DSMKIII to be made.  That kind of pricing is history and will not work for future models -  you can take that to the bank, since that was the precise reason why Sony announced 7-8 months in advance that their Full-frame body will come with a 24.6MP Sensor......which means the body would need a much more robust and expensive data pipeline, high-end processors to process such massive amounts of image data and up the FPS to say 5FPS and so on.  It was intended to force Canon's hand to introduce a 5D for rougly similar specification....and hurt the 1DS business.  I think they succeeded, based on the angst I see around here from 1DS owners.

[Tony Beach]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/techdigest/200809...ck-e870a33.html

[DarkPenguin]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/techdigest/200809...ck-e870a33.html
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Did you mean to add something to this or are you just reposting this?

[Chris_Brown]

I have to ask what qualifies as quality sound capture and how far away is the 5D from that?

Standard DVD playback quality is 48kHz @ 24 bit. Professional recording quality is 96kHz @ 24 bit for location work, 192kHz @ 24 bit for studio work. Canon's website doesn't state what the audio A/D conversion rate is, but the camera does have a 1/8th inch microphone jack.

[Chris_Brown]

Nikos-Nikon or whatever your name is...
Hey Jack-John or whatever your name is...

Just go to your user preferences for this website (in My Controls) and set your prefs to ignore each other. It's a great way to filter out the noise.

[Tony Beach]

Did you mean to add something to this or are you just reposting this?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222488\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sorry, I missed your earlier post (#95), and I may have missed any replies to that post as well (although a quick search didn't reveal anyone alluding to "techdigest").  Probably it would have made more sense to start another thread so we can parse various aspects of this wide ranging discussion; indeed, some participants here could use their own thread on the topic of "Trolling and DPR Style Discourse."

Now that I have reposted the link, I guess I would add that I do think it is notable what a Canon engineer has to say about noise, megapixels, and the 5DII.  While I have posted more than once that I am happy the 5DII's specifications and price because of the pressure that puts on Nikon to deliver the same; I am actually a little surprised too because it seems that Canon has abandoned the niche that the 5D occupied and ceded that ground to Nikon (D700).  If you are shooting in dimly lit venues and your 5D isn't quite cutting it, well Nikon has two cameras for you and Canon has left you behind for the time being.

[dwdallam]

Canon already stated that the 5D will be superior to the 1DS series in image quality and noise vs high ISO. Yeah, I'm a little bent that I spent 5, 000US more on 2.1 fps some better weather sealing, and autofocus, only to give up better image quality. I feel like I got ripped off actually. And as one poster said, Canon will no longer be getting 8K for any camera as long as Sony and others offer what they have been, especially after this stunt!

As a photographer not doing sports, image quality and high ISO usability are the holy grail for me, along with MPs for cropping and large printing.

I could care less about a video camera. Gimikie to me.

I would definitely buy the 5D over the 1DS3 at this point, if I were on the market.

I think the 5D2 at 21MPs and BETTER image quality than the 1DS3 surprised a lot of people, and pissed off a lot of people who recently forked out 8K for the 1DS3.

And yes I do understand that this is technology and price coming down for ever increasing IQ and image quality, but I never, ever expected it to happen at this steep of a curve. It even beats out PCs move between price and performance, which was largely predictable--every two years or so your PC will become obsolete, at least for high end CAD and graphics work and gaming. That was expected. And when you upgraded, you would pay about the SAME for a much better computer. In short, you expected it because it was predictable.

On the upside, perhaps the future flagship Canon cameras will be in the 4500 range.

Last, I'll bet the price of the 1DS3 just fell about 3, 000 US. What I mean is that most likely very few people will now choose to buy a 1DS3 at 8, 000 US. I suspect that it would need to drop to around 4500 to be of much interest, and maybe even much more. (This assumes that you don't need the very few features where the 1DS3 outperforms the new 5D.)

[Ray]

Standard DVD playback quality is 48kHz @ 24 bit. Professional recording quality is 96kHz @ 24 bit for location work, 192kHz @ 24 bit for studio work. Canon's website doesn't state what the audio A/D conversion rate is, but the camera does have a 1/8th inch microphone jack.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222501\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The quality of the sound from the 5D2 will depend on the quality of the microphone attached to it. One cannot expect good qhality sound from built-in mics, and this goes for all videocams.

The digital sound encoding used by the 5D2 was the standard for most music CDs for years (44khz @ 16 bit) and was capable of capturing a sound quality that hi fi enthusiasts would drool over, provided everything else in the chain was right (good quality mics, good placement of mics, good quality playback equipment etc).

Later developments, such as increasing the bit depth to 20 bit, 24, bit and 48 bit, and the sampling rate from 44kHz to 192kHz, have advantages for mixing, editing and general signal processing, much the same way that working on images in Photoshop in 16 bit as opposed to 8 bit can be advantageous.

In general, the sound quality specification of the 5D2 would suggest that it's perfectly adequate for all who are not trying to produce state-of-the-art or multi-channel sound.

[Josh-H]

Canon already stated that the 5D will be superior to the 1DS series in image quality and noise vs high ISO. Yeah, I'm a little bent that I spent 5, 000US more on 2.1 fps some better weather sealing, and autofocus, only to give up better image quality. I feel like I got ripped off actually. And as one poster said, Canon will no longer be getting 8K for any camera as long as Sony and others offer what they have been, especially after this stunt!

As a photographer not doing sports, image quality and high ISO usability are the holy grail for me, along with MPs for cropping and large printing.

I could care less about a video camera. Gimikie to me.

I would definitely buy the 5D over the 1DS3 at this point, if I were on the market.

I think the 5D2 at 21MPs and BETTER image quality than the 1DS3 surprised a lot of people, and pissed off a lot of people who recently forked out 8K for the 1DS3.

And yes I do understand that this is technology and price coming down for ever increasing IQ and image quality, but I never, ever expected it to happen at this steep of a curve. It even beats out PCs move between price and performance, which was largely predictable--every two years or so your PC will become obsolete, at least for high end CAD and graphics work and gaming. That was expected. And when you upgraded, you would pay about the SAME for a much better computer. In short, you expected it because it was predictable.

On the upside, perhaps the future flagship Canon cameras will be in the 4500 range.

Last, I'll bet the price of the 1DS3 just fell about 3, 000 US. What I mean is that most likely very few people will now choose to buy a 1DS3 at 8, 000 US. I suspect that it would need to drop to around 4500 to be of much interest, and maybe in much further. (This assumes that you don't need the very few features where the 1DS3 outperforms the new 5D.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What a whining diatribe.

Firstly, I will bet you wont be able to pick a 5D from a 1DSMK3 file without looking at the EXIF data and secondly, as posted numerous other times, there are quite a lot of differences between the 5DMKII and the DSMK3. If you don't feel these differences are worth the cost to you - fair enough, but honestly, there is no need to go on whinging about it in post after post.

Either use your DSMK3 and be happy with it - or sell it and move on.

'Gets off soap box.'

[mrleonard]

This new 5DII is GREAT news for creative photographers, as the price of a 5D will now fall even further!!!

Let's face it, the digital SLR has pretty much reached it's watermark as far as IQ is concerned...and it did so, at least in a more affordable incarnation, in the 5D.

 I know there are "pros" that will say they need this and that and that they would love an SLR to compete with their Medium Format Digital backs. The reality is that this "professionalism" is largely based on perception...having the big expensive toys to show off to a client, thus ennuring a certain confidence to that client (because you must be "pro"/serious to have spent such a large amount of money on gear). This has nothing to do with actual "IQ". Real IQ is lighting and composition....not discerning megapixels with a loupe.

I think any of these improvements we see in current, and future SLR's will only be relative to (an ever growing) community of SLR buyers that, like most modern consumers, gage the quality of a tool less on it's practical use, and are more dazzled by the ever expanding specifications.

Seriously...save the extra money and spend it on a plane ticket, an art history course, a bicycle, a case of good wine, a spa retreat...et al. I bet you'll see the "IQ" of your existant SLR increase dramatically.

Indeed..good news...I bet I can get a back-up 5d for $1200 in a few months.

[Ray]

Now that I have reposted the link, I guess I would add that I do think it is notable what a Canon engineer has to say about noise, megapixels, and the 5DII.  While I have posted more than once that I am happy the 5DII's specifications and price because of the pressure that puts on Nikon to deliver the same; I am actually a little surprised too because it seems that Canon has abandoned the niche that the 5D occupied and ceded that ground to Nikon (D700).  If you are shooting in dimly lit venues and your 5D isn't quite cutting it, well Nikon has two cameras for you and Canon has left you behind for the time being.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222510\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Here's a quote from that article you linked, Tony.

"The image quality on the 5d1 was so good that it's still as good as the new NikonD700 even though the Nikon is 3 years younger. I was hoping (...) for two new cameras. One would be a 'reheated' 5D1 with a same megapixel count but a slight redesign in sensor combined with new processor and all the gadgets like micro autofocus adjustments, vignetting control, dust reduction, better weather seals and an upgrade to the autofocus."

The image quality of the 5D1 was so good that it's still as good as the new Nikon D700......??

Now where have I heard that sentiment expressed before... or something similar? Err! Could it be on this site?  

One has to accept that as pixel count increases there are more pixels to read and therefore total read noise in the image will inevitable increase to some degree without compensating new technology.

It seems that Canon always strives to provide that compensatory technology to reduce, and perhaps even cancel any increase in total image noise. In the case of the 5D2, I get the impression these improvements include; improved transmissiveness of the color filters; reduced gap between the microlenses; improved amplifiers at each photosite; improved Digic processor.

I'm very confident that any image from the 5D2 at ISO 3200 will have less noise than an image of the same scene under the same conditions from the 5D1 at ISO 3200, when the images are compared at the same size.

If it doesn't, I'll eat my hat.

[DarkPenguin]

Sorry, I missed your earlier post (#95), and I may have missed any replies to that post as well (although a quick search didn't reveal anyone alluding to "techdigest").  Probably it would have made more sense to start another thread so we can parse various aspects of this wide ranging discussion; indeed, some participants here could use their own thread on the topic of "Trolling and DPR Style Discourse."

Now that I have reposted the link, I guess I would add that I do think it is notable what a Canon engineer has to say about noise, megapixels, and the 5DII.  While I have posted more than once that I am happy the 5DII's specifications and price because of the pressure that puts on Nikon to deliver the same; I am actually a little surprised too because it seems that Canon has abandoned the niche that the 5D occupied and ceded that ground to Nikon (D700).  If you are shooting in dimly lit venues and your 5D isn't quite cutting it, well Nikon has two cameras for you and Canon has left you behind for the time being.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222510\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think there was any discussion of the topic.  I thought it was interesting.  It was also one of those things you kind of hope isn't happening but you know probably is.  I mean I've been commanded to make more than one idiotic product because marketeering wanted it...

I think Thom Hogan on Dpreview said that right now he couldn't point to a single camera company making a camera with their eye on ultimate picture quality.   (Or something like that.)

[Ray]

I think such discussions about this or that camera have things exactly backwards; you start with what your needs are, then you decide on the lenses and work your backwards to the camera.  I've got great Nikkor lenses, and my D300 makes them sing, you will not see me whining about an upgrade to my D300.  It's great that Canon has announced this camera, but I would consider it foolhardy to jump ship from one's current camera to run out and buy the 5DII just because it has more resolution than their old camera -- in fact, even for Canon users the price of a used 5D undoubtedly just got a lot cheaper and might not be a bad idea for many.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222364\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Wow! This thread seems to be moving along.

I understand what you are trying to say, Tony, but it doesn't quite work out like that. I imagine that even professionals have trouble working out what they need. Do they really need that MFDB system or is it just to impress their clients? Will the increased cost of doing business pay off with more sales or higher prices?

For amateurs, needs don't come into it much. We're a consumer society. People buy what they want, what attracts them and what advertisers sometimes succeed in convincing them they need.

One can't assume that people who drive big cars have big families, or that people who drive SUVs and 4-Wheel drives are rugged outdoor types who frequently need to cross flooded rivers over unsealed roads or negotiate sand dunes in the desert.

We know that's not the case. If people confined their buying habits to only what they need, the economy would collapse. (Dear me! That was an unfortunate expression. I'll put it another way.)

If people confined their buying habits to only what they need, there wouldn't be an economy to collapse.

As for choosing a camera system by starting off with the quality of lenses available, that's as good a starting point as any and would be my preference, but it seems we're both locked into our respective systems. There's only one lens that Nikon produce that I want badly, and that's the 14-28/2.8, but I just can't justify spending over double the price for that lens and carry two camera systems around with me.

What happened to Mark Welsh's promise of a Nikon/Canon adapter?