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Author Topic: 5D Mark II Announced!!!!!!!!!!!!  (Read 62710 times)

Limosa

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« Reply #180 on: September 19, 2008, 03:50:49 pm »

Quote
See thats precisely the point.

[...] What happened to build quality these days.

its the same for everything we buy in the consumer society. buy it for a couple of yrs and then chuck it.

I want something that will last. I want a camera system and series of lenses that will do the job the way some of the film cameras used to. Like my Hasslebald c1988.
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Amen!
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Ray

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« Reply #181 on: September 19, 2008, 06:50:42 pm »

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So you don't know why MFDBs have more noise than DSLRs.  What's more egregious is that you offer completely wrong answers after I have given you the right one.
Right, you want to argue with something I cited without investigating it.  The biggest difference between how you have approached this discussion and the way I have is that when I write something I back it up and when you write something it's mostly your unsubstantiated opinion.  For example, your arguments about MFDBs compared to DSLRs is totally flawed and demonstrates that you do not know what

You have time to read marketing hype but not adult discussion, and that's the way you want it because you want to savor your pudding before eating it.

I'm hesitant to write that I'm done here now, because usually when I write that in a contentious thread someone rabbit punches me on my way out the door.  Nonetheless, I hope you and I are done here since you want to dispute my arguments without investigating them.  Frankly, I don't have time to give considered replies to someone who doesn't afford me the same in return -- so unless you go and read those linked posts and digest what is being written then I will bid you good day and I sincerely hope you enjoy your 5DII.
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Tony,
You are being childish. How old do you claim to be?

Sometimes I feel as though I'm having a sensible conversation with someone on a forum, then suddenly he comes out with statements that cause me to wonder if all along I've been talking to a know-it-all teenager.

It's for this reason I tend to stay away from dpreview forums.
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marcmccalmont

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« Reply #182 on: September 19, 2008, 07:35:27 pm »

I am happy that the new 5D mkII might be a nice upgrade to my current 5D. I always thought wouldn't it be nice to buy a body that would last for some time and upgrade the sensor/memory/processor every few years like a PC. (i.e. put a better roll of film in it)
Marc
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Tony Beach

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« Reply #183 on: September 19, 2008, 09:12:19 pm »

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Tony,
You are being childish. How old do you claim to be?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222763\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I see, when you have no facts to support your arguments then you resort to ad hominem attacks.  Do me a favor, put me on your "Ignore User" list, because that's what I'm doing with you -- I have no time to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
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JohnKoerner

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« Reply #184 on: September 19, 2008, 09:27:45 pm »

Tony Beach said to Ray,
"Right, you want to argue with something I cited without investigating it. The biggest difference between how you have approached this discussion and the way I have is that when I write something I back it up and when you write something it's mostly your unsubstantiated opinion."



No disrespect, but isn't this exactly what you are doing Tony, offering unsubtantiated opinion? On page 8, post 155, you said, " it seems that Canon has abandoned the niche that the 5D occupied and ceded that ground to Nikon (D700)." What ground has the 5DMkII 'ceded' to the D700? The 5DMkII has left the D700 in the dust on virually every respect, except mayby fps and sealing. The D700 can't even cover the ground the 3-year old 5DMkI on image quality, so how in the world is it going to compare to the upgrade 5DMkII?

Tony, I also noticed you were quick to quote this mysterious Canon engineer, to undermine some of what Canon's doing, and yet in the same breath you said, "Please, that's a Canon engineer speaking, do we really expect him to say the 5D is not as good as the D700?" So basically, Tony, you're going to pick and choose what you believe then, is that it? The negative comments are "true" but the positive comments are "false," is that it?  

You then went on to say, "I strongly suspect that pixels have been underutilized by Canon's execution of the 5DII and that they could accomplish equal detail with fewer megapixels."

"Strongly suspect?" What does that mean? Where are the actual facts you told Ray that you always stuck to? All of your rhetoric, Tony, basically boils down to exactly a bunch of "unsubstantiated opinion" on your part, nothing more. That is all you are really doing here: poo-pooing something without any facts at all. The comical part is your motive is transparent as hell, so let me spell it out for you. Since you used the word "fanboyism" on me, let me return the favor: all the schooling, education, and professionalism aside ... that really what you are youself---a Nikon fan---and all this rhetoric from you is nothing but you refusing to believe that Canon might have hit a home run in this camera. From what I can see, that's pretty much all there is to your posts here, is you refusing to believe that this 5DMkII isn't a home run by Canon.

You (and another prominent Nikonian) are offering nothing but a bunch of "unsubstantiated, negative speculation" to make yourselves feel better about what appears to be one helluva new camera offering by Canon. In fact, your cohort Nikonian said, "I personally speculate that  1. At pixel level the 5DMKII will be slightly but noticeably inferior with regards to noise from the D3/D700."

This is utterly ridiculous and nothing but "anti-fanboyism" from two diehard Nikonians  

And that's all that this is ...



I think your previous enthusiasm for what this might mean for Nikon, where their next move might be to come out with something really positive themselves, is a lot more mature and realistic way to address this new camera offering than the previous "negative, boo-hoo, it-can't-be-better-than-Nikon" babbling.

The truth is, even the remedial cameras are all so good now (compared to the very best of just a few years ago) that the now-best cameras have nowhere to go but down in price. To me that's the most exciting and positive "speculation" that should be going on here about the whole camera market and industry now.

Jack




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« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 09:32:02 pm by JohnKoerner »
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Tony Beach

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« Reply #185 on: September 19, 2008, 09:47:35 pm »

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On page 8, post 155, you said, " it seems that Canon has abandoned the niche that the 5D occupied and ceded that ground to Nikon (D700)." What ground has the 5DMkII 'ceded' to the D700? The 5DMkII has left the D700 in the dust on virually every respect, except mayby fps and sealing. The D700 can't even cover the ground the 3-year old 5DMkI on image quality, so how in the world is it going to compare to the upgrade 5DMkII?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222788\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You really are a "fanboy".  I already cited Thom Hogan's review of the D3 and quoted what he wrote about how it performed in a poorly lit gym where he tests all the cameras he has handled (and that's pretty much all of them).  The 5D did not do as well as the D3 or the D700 there.  The niche being abandoned by Canon is a camera that provides optimal image quality under poor light, and with enough resolution for the vast majority of user's needs with files that are not going to bring your computer to a crawl.  The 5DII and A900 occupy a niche I'm more interested in, putative medium format resolution; there's nothing wrong with that, but to claim as you and Ray seem to be that this makes those old, 12 MP DSLRs obsolete is to parrot marketing BS.  I considered doing this before, and yours and Ray's posts here have convinced me to start using this "Ignore User" feature more than I have been; you guys really do belong at DPR's Canon Forum, because that's where "we're Numero Uno again" and "our camera leaves yours in the dust" type of remarks resonate.
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Ray

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« Reply #186 on: September 19, 2008, 10:03:01 pm »

Well, thanks John for your support and for picking up on a few points which were obvious to me also.

In the absence of more factual information and detailed comparisons, I decided there was no point served in responding to Tony. However, I think it's another example of childishness when people use the ignore button.

In my view even the ignorant and uninformed sometimes have something useful to say, and no-one is right all the time or wrong all the time.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 10:05:54 pm by Ray »
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JohnKoerner

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« Reply #187 on: September 19, 2008, 10:23:44 pm »

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You really are a "fanboy".

As are you Tony

The difference is, you lack the self-awareness to realize everything you've posted here has been nothing but fanboyism. Go re-read everything you've posted. In fact, if you cut-n-paste them and send them to Thom, I'll bet you get your very own set of Nikon pom-poms delivered to you before Christmas  




Quote
I already cited Thom Hogan's review of the D3 and quoted what he wrote about how it performed in a poorly lit gym where he tests all the cameras he has handled (and that's pretty much all of them).  The 5D did not do as well as the D3 or the D700 there.

See what I mean?  

Tony, that's the old 5D. What does this have to do with the new one? And besides, Thom is a Nikon guy. Didn't you just question the bias of the Canon engineer yourself, and yet you think the Nikonian preaches the gospel? LOL

You're funny Tony  




Quote
The niche being abandoned by Canon is a camera that provides optimal image quality under poor light, and with enough resolution for the vast majority of user's needs with files that are not going to bring your computer to a crawl.


Actually, the new Canon 5D is supposed to be superb in low light.




Quote
The 5DII and A900 occupy a niche I'm more interested in, putative medium format resolution; there's nothing wrong with that, but to claim as you and Ray seem to be that this makes those old, 12 MP DSLRs obsolete is to parrot marketing BS.

Well, Polly, would you like a cracker? Because all you have done here is parrot Thom and an unknown Canon engineer yourself.

I actually never said the D700 would be obsolete; I said its price would plummet (and it will). So too will all of the higher-end cameras plummet IMO.

I do believe the 5DMkII is going to prove be a ground-breaker and pivotal point in DSLR history. All these prices are going to start coming way down now.




Quote
I considered doing this before, and yours and Ray's posts here have convinced me to start using this "Ignore User" feature more than I have been; you guys really do belong at DPR's Canon Forum, because that's where "we're Numero Uno again" and "our camera leaves yours in the dust" type of remarks resonate.

Speaking of DPForum, you're the one who seems to go there, and in fact quote people over there, LOL

Tony, our opinions only bother you so because we're pro Canon. If this identical camera were being offered by Nikon ... and if Ray and I were giving the identical praise, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And you would be singing a different tune.

Self-awareness Tony, try it sometime.

Jack

PS: To be completely candid, I am hoping Nikon does come out with something even more wonderful, for even less money. Unlike you, I think the 5DMkII is the best thing that ever happened to cameras, in terms of what it offers to what it costs, and that this will prove to be a wonderful thing for everybody ... with each company henceforth trying to "offer more, for less money."




.
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Chris_Brown

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« Reply #188 on: September 19, 2008, 10:39:39 pm »

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Canon already stated that the 5D will be superior to the 1DS series in image quality and noise vs high ISO.
I rarely shoot anything other than ISO 100, but for sure, many shooter will crave a clean, high ISO image.
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Deep

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« Reply #189 on: September 20, 2008, 12:08:24 am »

Despite some amazing bickering, I have found this an interesting thread, mainly in how we perceive what's desirable.  Well, today, I saw a new future.  I got to play with a Sony A900 and several lenses and my overwhelming impression was "how can a camera this good cost so little?".  This is the camera which will go head to head with the 5DII in real terms (as opposed to brand loyalty terms) and if the 5DII is better that will be quite something.

I used my own card for some shots (actually about 1Gb in a few minutes, that's frightening).  The detail is a given, but I think probably more than people think because the AA filter is clearly not strong - some visible jaggies at 100%.  What is more impressive is the phenomenal dynamic range.  Very hard to believe without seeing.  Don't ask me about noise as I am not one of those people who shoot at high sensitivity very often so I didn't check, except to say when I recovered a deliberately underexposed shot by 2.7 stops, some light chroma noise showed up.  Actually remarkably good for the test.

The anti shake works extremely well.  The shutter sound, "feel" and viewfinder are quality.  Build is much better than most people would think.

I tried the Zeiss 24-70 and 85/1.4, as well as the "G" 70-200, a 35/1.4 and even two DT lenses (which work in an odd but completely useable way).  All easily match Canon equivalents.

Hmmm ..... the next year will be very, very interesting indeed!

Don.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #190 on: September 20, 2008, 02:18:37 am »

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And I read many people (including you!) declaring the superiority of the 5DMkII of the D700 without citing a single photographic comparison, based it seems mostly on the virtues of that high MP count.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222663\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not at all. I based it on what Canon announced--that the 5DMKII will have the the best image quality, including noise, of any Canon camera to date, including the 1DS3.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #191 on: September 20, 2008, 02:20:58 am »

Quote
See thats precisely the point.

What i wanted in this 5dII upgrade, was a camera i could have for 10yrs with the knowledge i dont need to upgrade. What happened to build quality these days.

its the same for everything we buy in the consumer society. buy it for a couple of yrs and then chuck it.

I want something that will last. I want a camera system and series of lenses that will do the job the way some of the film cameras used to. Like my Hasslebald c1988.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222715\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I just would have felt better about longevity buying the new 1DS4. And I'd probably have spent less money!
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dwdallam

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« Reply #192 on: September 20, 2008, 02:29:07 am »

Quote
Despite some amazing bickering, I have found this an interesting thread, mainly in how we perceive what's desirable.  Well, today, I saw a new future.  I got to play with a Sony A900 and several lenses and my overwhelming impression was "how can a camera this good cost so little?".  This is the camera which will go head to head with the 5DII in real terms (as opposed to brand loyalty terms) and if the 5DII is better that will be quite something.

I used my own card for some shots (actually about 1Gb in a few minutes, that's frightening).  The detail is a given, but I think probably more than people think because the AA filter is clearly not strong - some visible jaggies at 100%.  What is more impressive is the phenomenal dynamic range.  Very hard to believe without seeing.  Don't ask me about noise as I am not one of those people who shoot at high sensitivity very often so I didn't check, except to say when I recovered a deliberately underexposed shot by 2.7 stops, some light chroma noise showed up.  Actually remarkably good for the test.

The anti shake works extremely well.  The shutter sound, "feel" and viewfinder are quality.  Build is much better than most people would think.

I tried the Zeiss 24-70 and 85/1.4, as well as the "G" 70-200, a 35/1.4 and even two DT lenses (which work in an odd but completely useable way).  All easily match Canon equivalents.

Hmmm ..... the next year will be very, very interesting indeed!

Don.
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That's really interesting. I can't wait for side by side tests of the A900, 1DS3, and 5DMKII plus the D3, except the D3 is a little outclassed here except for it incredible high ISO low noise capability and it's pro and solid build quality. Sony is no new comer to optics either. Now they have all of the Minolta technology too. I wonder if Sony wants to try for the pro camera market, not just the prosumer market?
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NikosR

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« Reply #193 on: September 20, 2008, 06:14:26 am »

Some of the first allegedly pro samples available. Wedding stuff, full size jpegs out of the camera. I will reserve judgment and comparison until I have seen more.

http://www.prophotonut.com/2008/09/20/cano...tures/#more-724

Edit: Be aware this is said to be 'beta version of the camera'.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 06:40:38 am by NikosR »
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Craig Lamson

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« Reply #194 on: September 20, 2008, 07:52:39 am »

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I just would have felt better about longevity buying the new 1DS4. And I'd probably have spent less money!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Why?  The MKIII you have now is making images and (I hope) making you money.  Its a quality camera that will in all honestly still be capable of making great images 10 years from now.  It has the image quality, build quality and resolution to do just that.  Besides it s AVAILABLE and working RIGHT NOW!

The grass is not always greener....
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Chris_Brown

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« Reply #195 on: September 20, 2008, 10:47:06 am »

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The quality of the sound from the 5D2 will depend on the quality of the microphone attached to it.
I disagree. The microphone is only one element in the audio path. Equally important to the mic is the mic pre-amp, which can cost hundreds of dollars per channel. The next most important element in the audio chain is the A/D converter, which, again, can cost a bundle. An example of an excellent mic-pre and A/D converter it the Manley SLAM! Digital two-channel mic-pre.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 10:48:11 am by Chris_Brown »
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DarkPenguin

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« Reply #196 on: September 20, 2008, 11:40:33 am »

Sample 5DmkII images up at dpreview.  They look very good through ISO 3200.  I'd be happy to use anything up to 12800 (not necessarily for landscape work) but 25600 looks like a gimmick.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08092001...rkiigallery.asp
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aaykay

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« Reply #197 on: September 20, 2008, 02:49:55 pm »

I think DPR has shot the high-ISO images with very good ambient light levels, thus proving very little about the real capabilities of the camera, under very little light levels.  

Hopefully the users will now start posting some real high-ISO results from production cameras, where the ambient light levels are not this high and truly measures the high-ISO capabilities.

The lower ISO images look really good, however.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 02:50:30 pm by aaykay »
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Slough

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« Reply #198 on: September 20, 2008, 05:32:35 pm »

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its the same for everything we buy in the consumer society. buy it for a couple of yrs and then chuck it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222715\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But I don't think we have to chuck it. What happens is that something new comes along, the old item is often working just as well, but the new item has more appeal. I have kept my old iPod because I would feel bad about 'upgrading'. I think in the digital camera world the big revolution is now over. Today's cameras will produce superb pictures in 5 years time, and will not be so obsolete as 5 year old cameras today.
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Ray

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« Reply #199 on: September 20, 2008, 06:04:55 pm »

If you greatly lighten the shadows in the series of shots of the Oly camera with Zuiko lens (in the dpreview samples), you should notice there is a progressive smearing of detail and an increase in chroma noise as one moves from ISO 1600 to ISO 25,600.

ISO 3200 seems perfectly usable though, possibly to the same degree I would describe ISO 1600 as being perfectly usable on the 5D.

I would predict that any image taken with a 5D2 at ISO 3200 will prove to be at least as sharp, detailed and noise-free as an image of the same scene taken with the 5D at ISO 1600, when same physical size images are compared.

In other words, roughly one stop high-ISO-noise improvement over the 5D and roughly 1/2 a stop over the D3, based on factors such as resolution and detail in all parts of the image, and based upon appropriate out-of-camera noise reduction with programs like Noise Ninja which can specifically target chroma noise.

My own tests have indicated that, compared to the D3, 5D images at high ISO have a high degree of chroma noise but better detail. When one balances detail with noise, putting both images through a program like Noise Ninja and making appropriate adjustments so that detail in both images is equal, then the noise advantage of the D3 appears to me to be even less than 1/2 a stop.

If one disregards the importance of detail and resolution, then anything is possible with noise reduction.
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