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Author Topic: 5D Mark II Announced!!!!!!!!!!!!  (Read 62460 times)

lovell

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5D Mark II Announced!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #100 on: September 17, 2008, 05:09:23 pm »

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True, and there's grumpy people and then there's the rest... I'm in the first category, today. Never mind. Happy with my 5d, usually (Geeezzz... a camera that can only take pictures, how lame is THAT???)

John/Jack: Marketeers have more power over what consumers _want_ than you grant them.

Using Live View for focus is, well... another example of 'let's take a fairly simple thing and make it 100x more complicated'. A good, I mean a reaaally good viewfinder would make it moot, no? Okay maybe in some pitch-black situations, that usually don't make for such photogenic stuff either. I do have trouble manual focusing sometimes with a wide angle, even with the EE-s screen. I can imagine an optical VF with an electronically enhanced image, now that would satisfy the engineers and the geeks, and me too!

But you make do with what you have.

Flatline, I understood the dsIII viewfinder was a big step forward? Not enough for you, apparently? Did you change the focusing screen?

Lovell, true but you'll need a computer twice as fast. Or wait twice as long between every click in photoshop.
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Nah, the old same PC I process on will handle those big 21mp files...no need to upgrade so long as one's PC has lots of ram and ram is cheap...As to LiveView, will you forget how helpful it will be for shooting over a fense, a crowd, any shooting where you need to hold the body up high, and yes, I 've needed that many times.  PJ's will love the LiveView and for these reasons.  Why you call it "complicated" is beyond me....how is it complicated?  Even a retard can use it, yea?
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After composition, everything else is secondary--Alfred Steiglitz, NYC, 1927.

I'm not afraid of death.  I just don't want to be there when it happens--Woody Allen, Annie Hall, '70s

lovell

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« Reply #101 on: September 17, 2008, 05:11:23 pm »

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More resolution than a H3D, better noise in bad light than a D3/D700, and all presumed without any firsthand or even secondhand experience -- wow, now that's fanboyism.
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Tony, you really need to do something about your reading comprhension problem, sir.  Did you notice all the "ifs" in my statements?  If it is lower in noise.  If it provides higher IQ...see what I mean.

But I got your point...there are others that post here that use the affirmative voice, and are "so sure" yet have never seen any test pictures nor read any endepth reviews..and I agree they are talking out of their ah, you know ;-)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 05:12:59 pm by lovell »
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After composition, everything else is secondary--Alfred Steiglitz, NYC, 1927.

I'm not afraid of death.  I just don't want to be there when it happens--Woody Allen, Annie Hall, '70s

lovell

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« Reply #102 on: September 17, 2008, 05:14:11 pm »

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Are you sure you live in California? Ouch.
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I don't know...I'll have to consult my astrologist....
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After composition, everything else is secondary--Alfred Steiglitz, NYC, 1927.

I'm not afraid of death.  I just don't want to be there when it happens--Woody Allen, Annie Hall, '70s

Tony Beach

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« Reply #103 on: September 17, 2008, 05:18:51 pm »

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Tony, you really need to do something about your reading comprhension problem, sir.  Did you notice all the "ifs" in my statements?  If it is lower in noise.  If it provides higher IQ...see what I mean.

If.

I.
F.

 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222170\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Perhaps you should do something about your writing skills.  You wrote that the 5D was at one time the "best camera of any make", well that was not true.  If pigs could fly, then that would be amazing, but they don't and the 5DII does not have more resolution than the H3D and is very unlikely to out resolve it.  Now granted, you mentioned "best camera", and "best DSLR" in your post, and"best IQ of any Canon camera"; if you had just stuck with the last pronouncement with all of its qualifiers then I would not have responded -- but at several points in that post you let your enthusiasm run unbridled.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 05:22:39 pm by Tony Beach »
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DarkPenguin

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« Reply #104 on: September 17, 2008, 05:20:30 pm »

How did all you guys escape from dpreview?
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lovell

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« Reply #105 on: September 17, 2008, 05:25:53 pm »

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Perhaps you should do something about your writing skills.  You wrote that the 5D was at one time the "best camera of any make", well that was not true.  If pigs could fly, then that would be amazing, but they don't and the 5DII does not have more resolution than the H3D and is very unlikely to out resolve it.  Now granted, you mentioned "best camera", "best IQ of any Canon camera", and "best DSLR" in your post; if you had just stuck with the last pronouncement with all of its qualifiers then I would not have responded -- but at several points in that post you let your enthusiasm run unbridled.
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Tony, the 5D (meaning mark I) was the best DSLR ever made in regard to image quality until only after the release of the 1D Mark III & 1DS Mark III.  Before those models were released, the 5D provide the best IQ of ANY Canon body out at that time and of ANY DSLR of any make.  The 5D bettered even the 1DS Mark II except for resolution.  The 5D showed less noise.

It was only after this year that the 5D was eclipsed in IQ when these were released:

Canon 1D Mark III
Canon 1DS Mark III
Nikon D300, D700
Nikon D3.

Not bad for a 3 year run, yea?

Now I suspect this latest 5D Mark II will be the body that provides the best IQ of any model and make....or in other words, I would not be surprised if this is found to be true.

This, from an owner of a 1DS Mark II, 1D Mark II and IIn, and three 5D Mark I's.
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After composition, everything else is secondary--Alfred Steiglitz, NYC, 1927.

I'm not afraid of death.  I just don't want to be there when it happens--Woody Allen, Annie Hall, '70s

feppe

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« Reply #106 on: September 17, 2008, 05:27:57 pm »

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How did all you guys escape from dpreview?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222175\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Indeed. This forum has been devolving into yet-another rumor-mongering and flame-baiting board lately.

Ray

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« Reply #107 on: September 17, 2008, 05:38:33 pm »

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I would be, big time. (In relation to dedicated MLU button)
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Tony,
You should realise by now, although Canon still does not have a single button designated for MLU on its cameras, in practice it does have a single button which enables MLU. It's called Live View.

On the 40D, a single button on the back of the camera flips the mirror up.
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aaykay

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« Reply #108 on: September 17, 2008, 05:56:18 pm »

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EF-S lenses project a smaller image circle than FF 35mm. There's no sudden cut-off, just severe vignetting, on full frame. Didn't you know that? 
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Ray,  EF-S lenses are just not usable on the EF bodies.  

In the Nikon and Sony mount, you can physically mount the APS-C lenses on a FF body, but you will get severe vignetting.

But in the Canon mount, the EF-S lenses are designed in a way that will cause damage, if you "hack" them and manage to even physically mount them on an EF body.  The reason is due to the short back-focus on EF-S lenses.  The rear element of the EF-S lens, will impact with the swinging mirror of the EF body, if you try to mount them on an EF body.
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Limosa

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« Reply #109 on: September 17, 2008, 06:29:09 pm »

lovell, I meant complicated in a technical sense, not practical. Technically Live View is quite sophisticated compared to an optical viewfinder, and in my book that's not necessarily a good thing. And wouldn't you want it to swivel to really work over your head?

With a 21mp average raw file a 16-bits psd with a couple of layers will easily jump the 400mb mark. Now let's stitch a couple of those together...
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BFoto

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« Reply #110 on: September 17, 2008, 08:54:54 pm »

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In bad weather the 5D didn't always inspire complete confidence. If the 5D Mk II proves to be more robust, landscape photographers will be very happy indeed.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222125\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You know as an owner of one, the 5D plainly does not cut the mustard in high winds, especially in dry climates, where dust is flying.

The new dust removal system is nice, but i dont get why all weather sealing would not be standard now. Considering how dust on the sensor is our enemy...and the manufacturers know this, just not to inlcude it because "we cant make the 1DsIII look redundant" is dumb.

Now as some have pointed out here, the resolution seems to be impressive and the fps not as good as the Nikon and thus conclusions made that it will better suit landscape style shooting for large prints etc etc. Well, if i want to take this out into the landscape, i want to know that while i trudge through 5 days of hiking in Torres del Pine that the weather sealing is up to the task. Last time i went there, i came back to post-process and was stunned at the dust spots.

I was psyched about the lead up to this, but am not so sure i am sold. Going to wait on this one.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 09:21:19 pm by BFoto »
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Ray

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« Reply #111 on: September 17, 2008, 09:23:32 pm »

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Ray,  EF-S lenses are just not usable on the EF bodies. 

In the Nikon and Sony mount, you can physically mount the APS-C lenses on a FF body, but you will get severe vignetting.

But in the Canon mount, the EF-S lenses are designed in a way that will cause damage, if you "hack" them and manage to even physically mount them on an EF body.  The reason is due to the short back-focus on EF-S lenses.  The rear element of the EF-S lens, will impact with the swinging mirror of the EF body, if you try to mount them on an EF body.
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Yes, I realise that EF-S lenses have never been usable on FF bodies for the reason you mention. But that does not necessarily means that it's impossible to design a FF body with a mirror that lifts in a different manner in order to accommodate EF-S lenses.

However, I accept that Canon USA have most likely made an error in their specifications.

In any case, I have no particular desire to use EF-S lenses with a full frame sensor that would produce a less detailed result than the same lens on a 50D. I always travel with a cropped format DSLR as both back-up and extender for my longest telephoto lens.

EF-S lenses also tend to lose that advantage of the cropped format which, with the larger format lens, produces generally sharp corners.
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Ray

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« Reply #112 on: September 17, 2008, 09:38:34 pm »

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You know as an owner of one, the 5D plainly does not cut the mustard in high winds, especially in dry climates, where dust is flying.

The new dust removal system is nice, but i dont get why all weather sealing would not be standard now. Considering how dust on the sensor is our enemy...and the manufacturers know this, just not to inlcude it because "we cant make the 1DsIII look redundant" is dumb.

Now as some have pointed out here, the resolution seems to be impressive and the fps not as good as the Nikon and thus conclusions made that it will better suit landscape style shooting for large prints etc etc. Well, if i want to take this out into the landscape, i want to know that while i trudge through 5 days of hiking in Torres del Pine that the weather sealing is up to the task. Last time i went there, i came back to post-process and was stunned at the dust spots.

I was psyched about the lead up to this, but am not so sure i am sold. Going to wait on this one.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222207\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I get the impression that some of you folks want a camera that's as good as or better than the 1Ds3 and D3 in every respect, but at a price below US$3,000.

This will no doubt eventually happen with future models, but Canon have to try to make a profit as well as being competitive in the market place. They seem to me to be offering exceptionally good value for the features that are included in the 5D MkII, more than some people predicted.

Faster frame rates, more sophisticated autofocussing, tighter weather sealing, fully customisable auto-ISO, 7 shot +/- 3 stops exposure bracketing etc. would all be worthwhile improvements, but I think one has to accept that such additional features would raise the price of the camera considerably and most definitely blow the 1Ds3 out of the water at its current price.

I would also like the HD 1920x1080p video to consist of binned pixels. That would mean each pixel, instead of being 6.4 microns in pitch would be effectively about 20 microns in pitch for tremendous dynamic range. How much do you think that would add to the price?  
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 09:45:11 pm by Ray »
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telyt

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« Reply #113 on: September 17, 2008, 10:00:22 pm »

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I would not be surprised if the 5DM2 is the best camera of any make, any price, just like the 5D was just a few years ago.
That is a very common misconception about the 5D.  I suppose if another Canon is your only other option, it may be true.
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Tony Beach

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« Reply #114 on: September 17, 2008, 10:09:55 pm »

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Tony, the 5D (meaning mark I) was the best DSLR ever made in regard to image quality until only after the release of the 1D Mark III & 1DS Mark III.  Before those models were released, the 5D provide the best IQ of ANY Canon body out at that time and of ANY DSLR of any make.  The 5D bettered even the 1DS Mark II except for resolution.  The 5D showed less noise.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What you wrote (and I objected to) was, "I would not be surprised if the 5DM2 is the best camera of any make, any price, just like the 5D was just a few years ago."

That means better at everything (low noise and resolution) than everything else.  Now if you want to amend that to mean among DSLRs, and as regards ISO performance for the older 5D and we'll see about ISO and resolution for the newer 5D, then fine, but that's not what you originally wrote.  Frankly, I think the D3/D700 will still be better at high ISO, especially in bad light.

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Tony,
You should realise by now, although Canon still does not have a single button designated for MLU on its cameras, in practice it does have a single button which enables MLU. It's called Live View.

On the 40D, a single button on the back of the camera flips the mirror up.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222181\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Why should I realize that?  I shoot Nikon and I would sorely miss both the ability to dial in to and out of MLU from outside the menu and the second dial by my thumb that I use to change shutter speed in Manual shooting mode.  I would also miss 45 AF points and the 6.5 fps I get with my D300 -- YMMV.

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I get the impression that some of you folks want a camera that's as good as or better than the 1Ds3 and D3 in every respect, but at a price below US$3,000. 

This will no doubt eventually happen with future models...


This is already the case with the D3, it's exactly what the D700 represents with the only appreciable differences between the two being features and a built-in vertical grip.  This entire question of advances in features and performance at lower prices is a moving target, although many do have unreasonable expectations.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 10:15:10 pm by Tony Beach »
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #115 on: September 17, 2008, 10:20:39 pm »

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Faster frame rates, more sophisticated autofocussing, tighter weather sealing, fully customisable auto-ISO, 7 shot +/- 3 stops exposure bracketing etc. would all be worthwhile improvements, but I think one has to accept that such additional features would raise the price of the camera considerably and most definitely blow the 1Ds3 out of the water at its current price.
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Fully customisable auto-ISO and 7 shot +/- 3 stops exposure bracketing would have close to zero impact on cost.

Cheers,
Bernard

aaykay

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« Reply #116 on: September 17, 2008, 10:20:43 pm »

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EF-S lenses also tend to lose that advantage of the cropped format which, with the larger format lens, produces generally sharp corners.

Yeah, but the real reason why people talk about either EF-S lenses or EF lenses in the "cropped mode", is the ability to get say a 8-10MP image (RAW and JPEG),  when shot in the APS-C cropped mode, specifically when you don't want to shoot with the full 21.2MP resolution.  The saved files (RAW and JPEG) are considerably smaller (obviously).

The Nikon D3/D700 (12.2MP FF) and the Sony A900 (24.6MP FF) have this "APS-C crop" mode but only the A900 and the 1DSMKIII/5DII, truly have the ability to make the "crop mode" viable, due to the higher pixel density.  In case of the Sony A900, the "APS-C crop mode" (1.5x) is around 10.7MP.
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Ray

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« Reply #117 on: September 17, 2008, 11:52:33 pm »

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Why should I realize that?  I shoot Nikon and I would sorely miss both the ability to dial in to and out of MLU from outside the menu and the second dial by my thumb that I use to change shutter speed in Manual shooting mode.  I would also miss 45 AF points and the 6.5 fps I get with my D300 -- YMMV.
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Tony,
Okay! Fair enough! You don't use Canon. I find it difficult to appreciate the difficulty that anyone might experience due to a lack of a dedicated MLU button. Before the Live View feature was introduced, it's true that one had to press a couple of buttons and turn a dial a couple of times to enable MLU, but that was no big deal considering that MLU is usually (in my case always) used only when the camera is on a tripod. In those circumstances one usually has more time to compose the shot. However, it could happen that one might miss the moment due to a 4 second delay in enabling MLU.

With Live View, it's no longer a problem. Pressing just one button flips the mirror up, and pressing it again flips it back down.

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This is already the case with the D3, it's exactly what the D700 represents with the only appreciable differences between the two being features and a built-in vertical grip.  This entire question of advances in features and performance at lower prices is a moving target, although many do have unreasonable expectations.

The D3 is heavier and presumably more robust. It's good for more shutter actuations, isn't it? Just like the 1Ds3 in relation to the 5D2.

I'm not aware that the D700 has any image quality improvements over the D3. However, the 5D is claimed to have a few features the 1Ds3 doesn't have, such as contrast AF in Live View mode, HD video capability, higher (supposedly real) ISO settings, newer processing engine (Digic 4), improved transmission of light through the color filters, and improved on-chip pre-amplifiers at each photosite, which are (presumably) at least partly responsible for the 5D2's higher ISO capability.

All in all, a tremendous achievement from Canon. There's a lot there for Nikon owners to be envious of, but the D700 still retains a few advantages, so no need to feel too despondent   .
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BFoto

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« Reply #118 on: September 17, 2008, 11:53:50 pm »

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I get the impression that some of you folks want a camera that's as good as or better than the 1Ds3 and D3 in every respect, but at a price below US$3,000.


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No not at all. I don't expect it all, but i expect my camera to be weather sealed if the technology allows it.

Did people have dust issues with film? Probably not the way they are having issues with digital cameras - look at the new technology for dust removal.  That in itself is the paradox. Canon has the technology to weather seal it aka 1DsIII....but wont include it, instead we get the removal feature. Well, i would not need the removal feature had i the best weather sealing. Why allow the dust to get on there in the first place, and risk scratching the sensor?

If a camera allowed dust into it that resulted in scratching the film, there would be a riot. My 1980 Hasselblad has no such issues.

It makes no sense?

Ray

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« Reply #119 on: September 17, 2008, 11:59:59 pm »

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Yeah, but the real reason why people talk about either EF-S lenses or EF lenses in the "cropped mode", is the ability to get say a 8-10MP image (RAW and JPEG),  when shot in the APS-C cropped mode, specifically when you don't want to shoot with the full 21.2MP resolution.  The saved files (RAW and JPEG) are considerably smaller (obviously).

The Nikon D3/D700 (12.2MP FF) and the Sony A900 (24.6MP FF) have this "APS-C crop" mode but only the A900 and the 1DSMKIII/5DII, truly have the ability to make the "crop mode" viable, due to the higher pixel density.  In case of the Sony A900, the "APS-C crop mode" (1.5x) is around 10.7MP.
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Hey! This is just nit-picking. With 64GB compact flash cards, 320GB pocket external drives that plug into one's laptop, 2 Terabyte, affordable desktop external hard drives, and 50GB recordable Blu-ray discs, who has to worry about storage nowadays?
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