New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)

[eronald]

OK, here's the thing I don't get about medium format.  And this doesn't really apply to Sinar but all of  the brands.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218410\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

James,

 All the brands are moving to integrated camera-back combos. They just won't come out and say it clearly. Prices are going to crash too, look at the H3DII.

Edmund

[Graham Mitchell]

It's called a bloated product line. It needs simplifying, for marketing reasons, and for production and maintenance reasons.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218435\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Wow, you think 4 backs is bloated? I'm happy that Sinar gives customers the choice of LV or the rotating adapter. If you are going to count different options as completely different backs, then doesn't Phase have something like 12-15 backs?

[Natasa Stojsic]

hi Edmund,

I believe, in the contrary to what you are saying, that we have the [span style=\'font-size:21pt;line-height:100%\']smallest[/span] and clearest choice:

- Sinarback eMotion 54 LV
- Sinarback eMotion 75 (with LV option or not)
- Sinarback eVolution 75 H (Multishot)

and now the Sinarback eSprit 65.

I can't understand where from your belief comes.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218398\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thierry, Love the screen choice and all of the upcoming improvements!!!

Sinar is known for having the widest choice/range of Cameras.... I hope it stays that way!!!

However, there must be someone/few decision makers at the top... one that lacks the creative talent but lives with common sense and the other that lacks the common sense but lives with creative talent!!! Now, that would be a perfect score 10 if they would share each other's forte.... sadly in this case it seems like they are  far from it although they do manage with your/others input!!!

I seriously think you/all/manufacturers should pay attention to what James/others are saying... in this case it's pitty we all love Photography more than Commerce even though today it's all Photography!!!

Thierry, I hope all of us are not blind to see your contribution/signature on the new DBs.... along that road via James/others plenty could be done so that Sinar/we finally have not a Horse for the  race, rather Horse to Lead!!!

It's all about convenience.... So, unless Manufaturers/somebody/etc. is listening very closely
the fact remains and the gap will only be more apparent/stronger.... that ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME/PHASE!!!


Att: RED, LEAF, SINAR, SEITZ, HASSELBLAD, PHASE!!!

[span style=\'font-size:11pt;line-height:100%\']Option/Choice = CONVENIENCE!!![/span]

[thsinar]

Edmund,

I do really not follow your mind! If this is having a too large program, then  what do you have to say about those having, beside their current "normal" products, a whole line-up of re-furbished backs, in x different mounts, some discontinued since years, some not, etc ...

I have really problems to understand what is wrong, and why you pick out Sinar?

In fact our line of products is pretty clearly defined: it goes from the cameras to the lens, with all necessary accessories and the backs fitting different needs.

I would understand to be criticized for not having a complete system, but here ...!

Please enlighten me!

Best regards,
Thierry

My belief comes from the fact that we have a new 65 camera where the back doesn't rotate and another 65 back which does rotate.

And a 75 with and without an LV option.

And a 75H multishot

And a 54

And the undoubted new models of 75 which will follow the new 65

And the undoubted to be announced larger sensor model.

And the fact that the new 65 is a different chip (Kodak) from the previous ones (Dalsa)

And the Sinar M camera and its lenses

And the Hy6

In the end it's just too much. It's called a bloated product line. It needs simplifying, for marketing reasons, and for production and maintenance reasons.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218435\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[thsinar]

I would say much more: for the fun of the game I will count them, for Edmund, as soon as I have a bit more time.

Best regards,
Thierry

Wow, you think 4 backs is bloated? I'm happy that Sinar gives customers the choice of LV or the rotating adapter. If you are going to count different options as completely different backs, then doesn't Phase have something like 12-15 backs?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218447\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[thsinar]

Thanks gwhitf, for the best wishes.

We do not have to agree, of course. Be simply aware that I did disclose nothing which wasn't already sent out as a press release, officially. I won't be fired for this.

The prices are missing, yes, agreed. You seem to be infuriated and find it to be the worse of any possible misbeaviour or fault. So be it.

Apple gets the "bravos" for disclosing information by rumours which is still "secret"? I suppose the one(s) leaking the information have their clear agenda, and they certainly don't risk their job. If that is a honorable way to do for you, then I guess that I have something wrong in my mind and the way to see things.

I simply gather from this that one can put anyway one wants, there is always something to be blamed for, instead of concentrating on the positive side.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry,

Best wishes. You obviously have your own agenda, and outlook on how business should be done.

I'm also saying that, if an Apple employee came onto a discussion board like this, even in his personal time, and disclosed something three weeks in advance, with his corporate Signature at the bottom of his post, he'd probably be fired the next day. But again, this shows the marketing prowess (and related customer loyalty) of Apple Computer versus Sinar.

It's not about disclosing a secret in advance, it's about disclosing incomplete and confusing information to the customer. But we can agree to disagree. Good luck with your launch.
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[thsinar]

James,

I almost fully agree with all you are writing here, and won't argue anything, except for the prices:  what problem is there to wait 3 weeks to get it fully disclosed?

Can I have a break on this one?

 

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

OK, here's the thing I don't get about medium format.  And this doesn't really apply to Sinar but all of  the brands.

If you have a new back that hits all the points, high iso, great lcd, in camera processing, stable software . . . if it really does do all of this and the price is competitive then why not just wait until everything is in place and advertise the hell out of it?

If it's available, the supply and service network is in place and it does everything as advertised then it should sell like crazy, or at least what ever "sell like crazy" is in the medium format world.

It's not like your going to loose a sale to the new 65mpx phase, the 50mpx Hasselblad or the rotating sensor Leaf.  I doubt if their stuff will be ready to buy at Photokina anyway.

The thing is and once again this goes for all medium format cameras, there is not one single new product that has been announced in the last few weeks that you can walk in and buy.  Even the previous products do not have everything in place.  Maybe lenses, maybe software, maybe tilt shift gizmos, maybe viewfinders but none of even the past generation of product has everything
ready to use and of course now we have new product being introduced because it's a trade show year.

Now this may seem like a novel thought, but I don't really think the manufacturers are seeing this from the buyers standpoint.

I've owned five medium format backs from two companies.  Not one had everything ready to roll when it was delivered.  They were close, they worked, but going back and reading the original pdf and then putting them in use, there was some element that wasn't exactly there.

To make it even more frustrating, just about the time everything was "almost" in place . . . software, wi-fi, software, (did I say software), the respective companies introduced new product.

So if this is an investment, rather than a purchase (I'm not sure if I understand the difference), I want all the facts I can get on the investment and anything out of place makes me think twice, maybe three times if this is a good investment.

The thing is, there is no reason to do it this way and put doubt in the customer's mind.  Just wait until it's really ready or better yet, wait until I can buy it.

The no Contax or RZ mount really puzzles me.  Not because I own a Contax it would puzzle me if I had a closet full of hy6's.

There are about 2 billion guys shooting in New York with film in RZ's and Contax.  They only go to digital when a client "requests" it and then usually just rent the whole package from a tech company and that is usually either a Phase or Leaf mounted on an H series blad.

Think about that market that probably would be the perfect customer to sell a back with a 3" good lcd polaroid, in camera processing and hopefully easy to use software.

With interchangable mounts that would be perfect market to first sell them a back, then ease them into a new camera system, as they would know they have their trusty ol' RZ or contax for backup or just on the days they want to shoot digital with a RZ or contax.

Now take the guys that own phase or leaf and have them mounted on an RZ or contax.  If the new Sinar can go onto that camera that takes a lot of sting out of the investment to just buy a new back, rather than firesale the back and the camera to make the move to the Sinar.

Even if they just went straight to the HY6 and never used thier RZ again, knowing it was possible makes the "investment" a little easier to talk yourself into.

Kind of like a trunk on a Porsche.  You may not use it, but you can always tell your spouse it's still a good car for that weekend trip.

None of this makes any sense to me, especially since everyone connected to medium format keeps saying there is no money in cameras, just in digital backs.

If this is so, then why ever limit any digital back sales?

I personally think you have a winner on your hands with the new Sinar, but I also think that a winner shouldn't hobble themselves with any kind of doubt or any limitations.

One thing is for certain.  All medium format has the semi same business model and loves to announce everything in segments.  Just because it's always been done that way doesn't mean that the customer would not like to see a change.

In fact, since all of medium format seems to go through the same process, imagine how far ahead a company would be if they broke from this system.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218410\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[gwhitf]

I simply gather from this that one can put anyway one wants, there is always something to be blamed for, instead of concentrating on the positive side.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218477\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thierry, it's not about blame -- it's what James Russell is talking about -- it's about changing the game.

It's about thinking how the customer will receive your information, and about presenting it in the most efficient, digestible manner possible.

Would be like you walking into a fancy restaurant, sitting down, and being handed a menu by the waiter. The descriptions are there, the names are there, but the prices are absent. Would this not cause you slight confusion? It might not matter if it was McDonald's, but when there are lots of zeros behind the comma, price should be right in there -- a complete package for the "investing" customer.

Like the old saying, "You've just got one chance to make a first impression". You had your chance, and the first impression that you left was "incomplete". Again, the customer is trying to sort and file all these model numbers of all these different brands, and keep them all straight. I'd love to start a Google Document, and list every brand and every variation; it might be much more clear how the "investing" public sees the confusion.

As James says, you have the power to be a leader, and not a leaker, and be the exception to the rule, (as does Phase, Leaf, and Hasselblad). Who will do it, if anyone?

[James R Russell]

James,

I almost fully agree with all you are writing here, and won't argue anything, except for the prices:  what problem is there to wait 3 weeks to get it fully disclosed?

Can I have a break on this one?

 

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218482\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Theirry,

You can take all the time you want.  It's your company.

I am postive your a really nice guy, but sometimes I think there is some kind of language barrier between the French brain and the Texan brain.  (Then again my best friend is a Parisian and we understand each other very well).  

Still, step out from behind the camera makers desk and step into the working on the street photographer's world.

Next week you begin three projects.   One in studio, one on location and one in three countries in Asia.

All require a different look, almost different equipment and you say to yourself, I'm tired of shooting these little Canons and renting an H-1.  I think I'll buy medium format and yea, that new Sinar looks good.  

Let me see, how much is going to cost me for a body, a back and 5 lenses?  Hmm, I gotta wait three weeks to find out the price . . . I wonder how long before I can get the camera?

I think all of these companies are so concerned about one upping the next guy, they forget that our clients don't really care if we are waiting for a camera.

In fact if you told a client you had to put your project off to wait for a camera, lenses and finder they would laugh . . . actually they wouldn't laugh, they'd just go to the next estimate.

It's not that the omission of the price is a big deal, it's just that medium format has developed (to put it kindly) their own form of a credibility gap.  I could list everything from all the makers and there really is no point because most of us have hashed and rehashed this 100 times.

Knowing this I would think that credibility would be the first item on the list.

In my world I have to hit 100% on about 24 items to win a project.  I only have to miss one small point to lose one.

Since I work in this atmosphere, and I assume most photographers do the same, everybody I write a check to has to do the same, or I go on down the road unti I find someone that does.

JR

[eronald]

James,

I almost fully agree with all you are writing here, and won't argue anything, except for the prices:  what problem is there to wait 3 weeks to get it fully disclosed?

Can I have a break on this one?

 

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218482\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's pretty clear that Hasselblad has stepped out of the MF cartel now. The H3DII can be priced, delivered, and is *affordable*.

In fact, I wonder if James has noticed that from the business point of view Hassy meets all his criteria ?

 -Available for delivery as soon as announced
- Wide dealer network
- Sold in every market
- Can be rented pretty much everywhere

Edmund

[thsinar]

Edmund,

If you continue, I cancel the beer I owe/promised you at Photokina!

 

Thierry

PS: why insisting all the time? Would you please bother a bit more about what others do wrong?

The Hy6-65 shall be priced at the opening of Photokina and will be available for delivery at Photokina, period. And I won't speculate on being affordable or not: if you do use judgement, then you can may be conclude that the price range will be around what is proposed in the market. Is that so difficult to understand?

Does this mean the meeting with Phase and Leaf where you agree to match prices hasn't happened yet ? It's pretty clear that Hasselblad has stepped out of this cartel now. The H3DII can be priced, delivered, and is *affordable*.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218497\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[thsinar]

Thanks for your patience!

Yes, I do understand, except that we are far from having the situation of being in a restaurant: you can't order it today, we have SIMPLY informed which way it is going, period.
Some (most) understand it this way, some take it to make a killer argument (in the negative way).

It is starting to head nowhere, this discussion, and I won't say anymore on this topic.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Thierry, it's not about blame -- it's what James Russell is talking about -- it's about changing the game.

It's about thinking how the customer will receive your information, and about presenting it in the most efficient, digestible manner possible.

Would be like you walking into a fancy restaurant, sitting down, and being handed a menu by the waiter. The descriptions are there, the names are there, but the prices are absent. Would this not cause you slight confusion? It might not matter if it was McDonald's, but when there are lots of zeros behind the comma, price should be right in there -- a complete package for the "investing" customer.

Like the old saying, "You've just got one chance to make a first impression". You had your chance, and the first impression that you left was "incomplete". Again, the customer is trying to sort and file all these model numbers of all these different brands, and keep them all straight. I'd love to start a Google Document, and list every brand and every variation; it might be much more clear how the "investing" public sees the confusion.

As James says, you have the power to be a leader, and not a leaker, and be the exception to the rule, (as does Phase, Leaf, and Hasselblad). Who will do it, if anyone?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218486\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[thsinar]

James,

French: be aware, I am more Swiss, in my mentality, then French! Then, if you know French(wo)men, you would know that a Parisian mentality is as far away from my region's mentality, than yours from Washington DC's. But I can tell you something for sure: I am as stubborn as a Texan (aries).

FYI: I am almost daily with photographers, hanging around in studios. But then, not in the USA, and you seem to take the US as the center of the world. There are other markets, James. The US IS important, so are other countries.

Now, if "our"/"my" credibility is put in jeopardy because of prices which will be available in 3 weeks, then it does. From what I hear around me, it is not the case.

Best regards,
Thierry

PS: I do have to add that I do not take it as seriously as you might take it, the above!
 

Theirry,

It's your company.

I am postive your a really nice guy, but sometimes I think there is some kind of language barrier between the French brain and the Texan brain.  (Then again my best friend is a Parisian and we understand each other very well). 

Still, step out from behind the camera makers desk and step into the working on the street photographer's world.

Next week you begin three projects.   One in studio, one on location and one in three countries in Asia.

All require a different look, almost different equipment and you say to yourself, I'm tired of shooting these little Canons and renting an H-1.  I think I'll buy medium format and yea, that new Sinar looks good. 

Let me see, how much is going to cost me for a body, a back and 5 lenses?  Hmm, I gotta wait three weeks to find out the price . . . I wonder how long before I can get the camera?

I think all of these companies are so concerned about one upping the next guy, they forget that our clients don't really care if we are waiting for a camera.

In fact if you told a client you had to put your project off to wait for a camera, lenses and finder they would laugh . . . actually they wouldn't laugh, they'd just go to the next estimate.

It's not that the omission of the price is a big deal, it's just that medium format has developed (to put it kindly) their own form of a credibility gap.  I could list everything from all the makers and there really is no point because most of us have hashed and rehashed this 100 times.

Knowing this I would think that credibility would be the first item on the list.

In my world I have to hit 100% on about 24 items to win a project.  I only have to miss one small point to lose one.

Since I work in this atmosphere, and I assume most photographers do the same, everybody I write a check to has to do the same, or I go on down the road unti I find someone that does.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218493\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Mitchell Baum]

I don't see the sense in all this.

I'm glad to know the 65 is on the way even if I don't know the price. I'd like to know the price. If Sinar knows what the price is, they're silly not to say, but I doubt they're fully decided. Saying the price will be about this much won't appease people here either. I think I have a pretty good idea what the price will be.

Leica has been greatly criticized for not telling what their future plans are even if incomplete. I'm not sure a small company can win in the PR game.

Yes it'd be great if all these small company with hugely expensive products could act more like big volume companies (in some ways but not in others), and I hope they move in that direction. In the meantime I'm glad to hear about the 65 even without the price. It informs my decisions right now about what to buy and what not to buy.

Best,

Mitchell

[Guy Mancuso]

Maybe I'm nuts but I like roadmaps and stuff being announced before delivery. I like to know what is ahead than sit and wait for it but that's me. Let's just take Leica as a example, we will have to wait till Sept. 21st two days before the opening of Photokinia to announce something and it still won't be ready and not have a price, that is not helping me at all. So let's face some facts we are not complete idiots not to know the Sinar 65 will be the same or above the current Hassy 31 or Phase P30 plus if they are pretty much the same offerings , yes there are some differences and such but if it is below 17k than I will eat my shorts. I know full well it is not, so waiting for the price is not something I am worrying about but more on what it will do for me. We also all know final firmware upon ship date will be different than it is today. It ALWAYS is with any digital camera. Come on guy's and girls how much of a rookie are you about this stuff. We all know we are not going to buy it until someday shoots a damn image from the sucker and show us what it is made of and final specs are in the camera. Again maybe i'm nuts but these announcements i want to know about. I need to plan ahead and make smart decisions on spending 20k plus so i would not be running out to buy this the first day anyway. It is being shown in Germany in 3 weeks and after that we will have a better answer from Sinar, from Phase, from Hassy and every other OEM out there. That is what this show is for to announce new stuff. None of it will be ready to buy that day anyway. What is wrong with announcing it today and giving you some idea what it maybe all about. Sorry guy's not in a great mood and all i see is some whining going on. None of this affects your bottom line until you decide to actually buy it than it counts until than who gives a crap, it is just normal marketing.

[James R Russell]

you seem to take the US as the center of the world. There are other markets, James.
 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218501\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Theirry,

If this helps, I work everywhere.  Asia, Europe, South America and the good ol' U.S. of A and I can tell you one thing I know.

It's all the same.  

Every market, every photograher complains about fees, tighter budgets, shorter dealines, more effort on their part.  Every talent agent wants more money for their models, every assistant is just scared to death that the photographer is going to skip town before paying them, every hotel has crappy internet for large uploads, every assistant stylist wants to put my photos on their website even if all they did was get the bagels.

Every market, every client asks the same, more content, better production, more effort.

I really don't believe in borders, physical or mental and think 90% of what everybody tells me is different is just because they haven't worked everywhere.

It rains on production in Miami just like it does in Paris.   The studios in Tokyo charge too much to rent a 12' rag just like they do in Dallas.   Parking in NY, LA, Chicago, San Francisco, Paris, London, (especially London), Tokyo, Hong Kong is absurd and every hotel charges $6 minimum for a bottle of plastic water.  Even in Kansas City.

It's all the same man.

JR

P.S.  Once again, it ain't about price, or what the price is going to be.  It's about being the company that is transparent and delivers.  Some of the responses here are not from arm chair photographers that "might" buy someday.  They come from people that will buy if the product is right, the price is competitive and the company delivers on time.

Mostly delivers.

To put this into total perspective.  Today it's Sunday in NY.  I can make a list of everything I use on set, lights, grip, camera supports, computers, carts, drives and software.  I can e-mail that list out to two suppliers and except for medium format cameras, by early Monday morning I can have an exact price of what everything costs and exact delivery usually within a day.

[eronald]

Edmund,

If you continue, I cancel the beer I owe/promised you at Photokina!

 

Thierry

If it's Photokina, let's organize a dinner for us MF folks.

Edmund

[thsinar]

I would love, but usually am pretty busy with my evenings, to recover from the visitors like you.

 

Lets' see.

Thierry

If it's Photokina, let's organize a dinner for us MF folks.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218515\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[samuel_js]

Theirry,


Every market, every photograher complains about fees, tighter budgets, shorter dealines, more effort on their part.  Every talent agent wants more money for their models, every assistant is just scared to death that the photographer is going to skip town before paying them, every hotel has crappy internet for large uploads, every assistant stylist wants to put my photos on their website even if all they did was get the bagels.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218507\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Please James, stop! You're starting to sound like a diva.

The most interesting thing about these kind of threads is that most of the people complaining aren't even thinking about buying anything. So what's the point?

Really boring...

[eronald]

Well, I guess we could ask Yair to replace you -
Edmund

I would love, but usually am pretty busy with my evenings, to recover from the visitors like you.

 

Lets' see.

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218519\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]