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Author Topic: New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)  (Read 229267 times)

tho_mas

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2008, 04:21:18 pm »

Quote
Obviously I'd love to see a Contax mount, if only to make a transition easier from the HY6 to the current system I use ...
Also it gives you a way to have a backup without spending another $10,000.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218269\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
BTW:
This is one of the strongest arguments pro open compatiblity I've ever read.
To close the camera for Phase One and Hasselblad Backs... okay, to a certain extend that's somehow understandable from the manufacturers standpoint (though I doubt about that).
But in this case (Contax) we are talking about the compatibility of the new back to a discontinued camera system (that is currently still quite common but will die sooner or later).
Basically you send the Contax guys to Phase One! Not really clever.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 04:26:35 pm by tho_mas »
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bdp

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #61 on: August 30, 2008, 07:25:48 pm »

Quote
BTW:
This is one of the strongest arguments pro open compatiblity I've ever read.
To close the camera for Phase One and Hasselblad Backs... okay, to a certain extend that's somehow understandable from the manufacturers standpoint (though I doubt about that).
But in this case (Contax) we are talking about the compatibility of the new back to a discontinued camera system (that is currently still quite common but will die sooner or later).
Basically you send the Contax guys to Phase One! Not really clever.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218328\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes, you're right - I went to bed last night thinking "oh well, maybe I'll just have to get a Phase back instead".

Thierry - thanks for passing on my Contax mount request.

Ben
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tho_mas

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #62 on: August 30, 2008, 07:36:17 pm »

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Yes, you're right - I went to bed last night thinking "oh well, maybe I'll just have to get a Phase back instead". [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218359\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hmh... which is a great choice if you don't need in camera processing and/or big screen on the back, no?
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gwhitf

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #63 on: August 30, 2008, 07:36:43 pm »

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This was/is an announcement, like Apple (by well-directed rumours, among others) and many other big companies are doing them: by giving the information about a product to come. The day this product is then presented, this same day you have the prices. Apple is doing it this way, and many others, included in our field.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218293\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thierry,

My point to you is: Come to the table with full information, or why not just stay silent until you get it? Why come to the table with half a plate full? Because you know, the very next thing people will ask is: How much?

You treat this thing like these camera decisions are some weekend fun project -- many of us here earn our livelihood with these cameras -- we don't have day jobs. It's somewhat serious business. And think back over the last few months, about how many rumors and introductions there have been -- from Sinar and Leaf and Phase and Hasselblad. And I know you only are concerned with your brand, but imagine us out here, trying to keep up with the details and feature of all these cryptic naming conventions. Hell, with Hasselblad alone, I was lost months ago. I can't tell you what one back/camera does, or what size file it shoots, or whether it's shipping. With so much half-information out there, sooner or later, your eyes (and your interest) just glazes over, and you say "Screw it, I'll just go to B&H and get a 1ds3 and be done with it".

I'm just saying to you -- think of the customer, and try to come to the table with a complete picture of what you're "introducing". Otherwise, human nature just says, "God, he doesn't even know the price, so let's not even contemplate that model".

When Apple announces a new computer, it's done with full details -- full feature sheet, full price list, and firm shipping date. All you'd have to do is copy their business model and you'd be light years ahead.

MediumFormat is frought with camera after camera that's HALF-FINISHED. At some point, every announcement of a new medium format camera/back is going to be treated like "The Boy That Cried Wolf", and sooner or later, we're just going to stop listening and ignore you til you bring complete details to the table.

If you were buying for your business, wouldn't you insist on the same? Why introduce Doubt into an already shaky reputation?

I used to have an Assistant that did something very similar to this -- I'd send him to get a bogen stand, and he'd come back (without anything in his hand), and say, "Uh, we've used all the Bogen stands." So I'd say, "OK, how about just a normal Cstand?", and he'd go back and get a Cstand, but he'd get one without the Arm and the Knuckle on it, so I'd send him back again. This is what it's like dealing with so many medium format companies -- you have to send them back five times to get an honest answer about most anything, and by the fifth time, good chances you're probably pissed off about it.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 07:45:41 pm by gwhitf »
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hubell

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #64 on: August 30, 2008, 09:17:11 pm »

If the new Sinar LCD has a resolution of 640 x480 ppi, does that not work out to 326,000 ppi? The Nikon D3 LCD that Sinar is claiming its new LCD is the equal of has around 930,000 ppi.

BJNY

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #65 on: August 30, 2008, 09:33:45 pm »

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If the new Sinar LCD has a resolution of 640 x480 ppi, does that not work out to 326,000 ppi? The Nikon D3 LCD that Sinar is claiming its new LCD is the equal of has around 930,000 ppi.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218380\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Nikon LCD is 640x480x3(RGB)=900K pixels

Typical laptop LCD is 100ppi
CRTs were 72ppi
I believe iPhone LCD is ~ 200ppi
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Guillermo

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #66 on: August 30, 2008, 09:46:01 pm »

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Nikon LCD is 640x480x3(RGB)=900K pixels

Typical laptop LCD is 100ppi
CRTs were 72ppi
I believe iPhone LCD is ~ 200ppi
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218381\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks. I wonder why Sinar is able to pull this off and the other MFDB makers cannot. Kudos to Sinar. Too bad it probably won't make all that much difference in its market share. People talk a good game about what they really really want, but in the end they buy the same old same old no matter what.

samuel_js

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #67 on: August 30, 2008, 10:01:44 pm »

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Thierry,

My point to you is: Come to the table with full information, or why not just stay silent until you get it? Why come to the table with half a plate full? Because you know, the very next thing people will ask is: How much?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218362\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think this camera is great news. I  want to know the price of course but I don't have a problem with how things have been presented this time.

You'll know the price very soon. Don't bee so impatient.  
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eronald

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #68 on: August 30, 2008, 10:06:36 pm »

Thierry,

 No malice intended, but Sinar really has too many models now. It's not believable that a small company can coordinate parts, software, manufacture,  testing and calibration for all these different submodels.

 The software savings alone for just one model with one sensor would be substantial. Make the biggest and one average size one - and you'll be believable again.

Edmund
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rethmeier

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #69 on: August 30, 2008, 10:19:18 pm »

First of all I like to say well done Sinar.
My question is,as the new back's sensor is a Kodak one with Micro lenses,will this be usable
on shift camera's?
After all,isn't this the same sensor as the P-30?

I'm happy with my eMotion-75LV btw,so I can't see myself upgrading to this new back,unless
there is a version with a non-micro lens sensor.
IOW a new 75LV model II.

I do like the new design and 3 inch screen  and features etc.

Regards,

Willem.
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BJNY

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #70 on: August 30, 2008, 10:29:29 pm »

Quote
Thierry,

 No malice intended, but Sinar really has too many models now. It's not believable that a small company can coordinate parts, software, manufacture,  testing and calibration for all these different submodels.

 The software savings alone for just one model with one sensor would be substantial. Make the biggest and one average size one - and you'll be believable again.

Edmund
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« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 10:47:55 pm by BJNY »
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Guillermo

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #71 on: August 30, 2008, 11:44:43 pm »

Dear gwhitf,

I've been thinking and minding a long time before I answered your first post, searching and trying to find what could definitively be wrong in announcing a product which will be available (delivered, not presented) in 3 weeks: I definitively have to disagree with you.

I don't think that this adds any confusion. I am well aware that buying a camera/back is nothing short from being a serious issue, and should be considered to be rather an investment than a purchase.

Concerning lately spread rumours: I have checked, but seen none "from Sinar" like you claim it. Should there have been one, I would have stood firm to deny it, if BS.

Yes, you are right: when Apple announces a new computer, all the details, included the price are there. You forget the many "insider" rumours which are patiently and purposely released and spread around: do you think they come from nowhere?

Anyway, I beg once again to be patient for just 3 weeks.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

My point to you is: Come to the table with full information, or why not just stay silent until you get it? Why come to the table with half a plate full? Because you know, the very next thing people will ask is: How much?

You treat this thing like these camera decisions are some weekend fun project -- many of us here earn our livelihood with these cameras -- we don't have day jobs. It's somewhat serious business. And think back over the last few months, about how many rumors and introductions there have been -- from Sinar and Leaf and Phase and Hasselblad. And I know you only are concerned with your brand, but imagine us out here, trying to keep up with the details and feature of all these cryptic naming conventions. Hell, with Hasselblad alone, I was lost months ago. I can't tell you what one back/camera does, or what size file it shoots, or whether it's shipping. With so much half-information out there, sooner or later, your eyes (and your interest) just glazes over, and you say "Screw it, I'll just go to B&H and get a 1ds3 and be done with it".

I'm just saying to you -- think of the customer, and try to come to the table with a complete picture of what you're "introducing". Otherwise, human nature just says, "God, he doesn't even know the price, so let's not even contemplate that model".

When Apple announces a new computer, it's done with full details -- full feature sheet, full price list, and firm shipping date. All you'd have to do is copy their business model and you'd be light years ahead.

MediumFormat is frought with camera after camera that's HALF-FINISHED. At some point, every announcement of a new medium format camera/back is going to be treated like "The Boy That Cried Wolf", and sooner or later, we're just going to stop listening and ignore you til you bring complete details to the table.

If you were buying for your business, wouldn't you insist on the same? Why introduce Doubt into an already shaky reputation?

I used to have an Assistant that did something very similar to this -- I'd send him to get a bogen stand, and he'd come back (without anything in his hand), and say, "Uh, we've used all the Bogen stands." So I'd say, "OK, how about just a normal Cstand?", and he'd go back and get a Cstand, but he'd get one without the Arm and the Knuckle on it, so I'd send him back again. This is what it's like dealing with so many medium format companies -- you have to send them back five times to get an honest answer about most anything, and by the fifth time, good chances you're probably pissed off about it.
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Thierry Hagenauer
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thsinar

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2008, 11:54:43 pm »

hi Edmund,

I believe, in the contrary to what you are saying, that we have the smallest and clearest choice:

- Sinarback eMotion 54 LV
- Sinarback eMotion 75 (with LV option or not)
- Sinarback eVolution 75 H (Multishot)

and now the Sinarback eSprit 65.

I can't understand where from your belief comes.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

 No malice intended, but Sinar really has too many models now. It's not believable that a small company can coordinate parts, software, manufacture,  testing and calibration for all these different submodels.

 The software savings alone for just one model with one sensor would be substantial. Make the biggest and one average size one - and you'll be believable again.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218385\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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shutay

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2008, 11:56:11 pm »

Quote
Nikon LCD is 640x480x3(RGB)=900K pixels

Typical laptop LCD is 100ppi
CRTs were 72ppi
I believe iPhone LCD is ~ 200ppi
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218381\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually, it is now only Phase One that has small LCDs on the back of their latest digital backs.

Leaf has had a 3.5" touch screen for ages now, and were the first to go that large, but granted, AFAIK, it is 320 x 240.

Hasselblad went to a 3" LCD when they released the H3DII series.

Now Sinar too is in 3" territory, leaving only Phase One alone in 2.2" land.

Is this what you meant? Or did I miss the point?
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thsinar

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #74 on: August 31, 2008, 12:23:16 am »

hi Willem,

I believe, without having tested it yet, that it will all depend on your focal length and the amount of shift (tilt/swing) used.

In other words, the longer the focal length or the less shift, the less problems with CC due to the micro-lenses.

The shorter the lens and/or the more shift (tilt/swing), the more you will get into this issue.

The question being now how far can one shift (tilt/swing) with a given focal length: as soon as I have some more details, I shall give them.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
My question is,as the new back's sensor is a Kodak one with Micro lenses,will this be usable
on shift camera's?

Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218386\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2008, 12:30:13 am »

This was a question that I had too, Thierry.  Since there only is the 55mm PCS lens now with tilt/shift - it would be great to know how the new Hy6 backs work with that lens in particular.  
Eric


Quote
hi Willem,

I believe, without having tested it yet, that it will all depend on your focal length and the amount of shift (tilt/swing) used.

In other words, the longer the focal length or the less shift, the less problems with CC due to the micro-lenses.

The shorter the lens and/or the more shift (tilt/swing), the more you will get into this issue.

The question being now how far can one shift (tilt/swing) with a given focal length: as soon as I have some more details, I shall give them.

Best regards,
Thierry
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gwhitf

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2008, 12:53:03 am »

Quote
Yes, you are right: when Apple announces a new computer, all the details, included the price are there. You forget the many "insider" rumours which are patiently and purposely released and spread around: do you think they come from nowhere?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218397\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thierry,

Best wishes. You obviously have your own agenda, and outlook on how business should be done.

I'm also saying that, if an Apple employee came onto a discussion board like this, even in his personal time, and disclosed something three weeks in advance, with his corporate Signature at the bottom of his post, he'd probably be fired the next day. But again, this shows the marketing prowess (and related customer loyalty) of Apple Computer versus Sinar.

It's not about disclosing a secret in advance, it's about disclosing incomplete and confusing information to the customer. But we can agree to disagree. Good luck with your launch.
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James R Russell

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #77 on: August 31, 2008, 02:20:01 am »

Quote
Yes, you are right: when Apple announces a new computer, all the details, included the price are there. You forget the many "insider" rumours which are patiently and purposely released and spread around: do you think they come from nowhere?

Anyway, I beg once again to be patient for just 3 weeks.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218397\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


OK, here's the thing I don't get about medium format.  And this doesn't really apply to Sinar but all of  the brands.

If you have a new back that hits all the points, high iso, great lcd, in camera processing, stable software . . . if it really does do all of this and the price is competitive then why not just wait until everything is in place and advertise the hell out of it?

If it's available, the supply and service network is in place and it does everything as advertised then it should sell like crazy, or at least what ever "sell like crazy" is in the medium format world.

It's not like your going to loose a sale to the new 65mpx phase, the 50mpx Hasselblad or the rotating sensor Leaf.  I doubt if their stuff will be ready to buy at Photokina anyway.

The thing is and once again this goes for all medium format cameras, there is not one single new product that has been announced in the last few weeks that you can walk in and buy.  Even the previous products do not have everything in place.  Maybe lenses, maybe software, maybe tilt shift gizmos, maybe viewfinders but none of even the past generation of product has everything
ready to use and of course now we have new product being introduced because it's a trade show year.

Now this may seem like a novel thought, but I don't really think the manufacturers are seeing this from the buyers standpoint.

I've owned five medium format backs from two companies.  Not one had everything ready to roll when it was delivered.  They were close, they worked, but going back and reading the original pdf and then putting them in use, there was some element that wasn't exactly there.

To make it even more frustrating, just about the time everything was "almost" in place . . . software, wi-fi, software, (did I say software), the respective companies introduced new product.

So if this is an investment, rather than a purchase (I'm not sure if I understand the difference), I want all the facts I can get on the investment and anything out of place makes me think twice, maybe three times if this is a good investment.

The thing is, there is no reason to do it this way and put doubt in the customer's mind.  Just wait until it's really ready or better yet, wait until I can buy it.

The no Contax or RZ mount really puzzles me.  Not because I own a Contax it would puzzle me if I had a closet full of hy6's.

There are about 2 billion guys shooting in New York with film in RZ's and Contax.  They only go to digital when a client "requests" it and then usually just rent the whole package from a tech company and that is usually either a Phase or Leaf mounted on an H series blad.

Think about that market that probably would be the perfect customer to sell a back with a 3" good lcd polaroid, in camera processing and hopefully easy to use software.

With interchangable mounts that would be perfect market to first sell them a back, then ease them into a new camera system, as they would know they have their trusty ol' RZ or contax for backup or just on the days they want to shoot digital with a RZ or contax.

Now take the guys that own phase or leaf and have them mounted on an RZ or contax.  If the new Sinar can go onto that camera that takes a lot of sting out of the investment to just buy a new back, rather than firesale the back and the camera to make the move to the Sinar.

Even if they just went straight to the HY6 and never used thier RZ again, knowing it was possible makes the "investment" a little easier to talk yourself into.

Kind of like a trunk on a Porsche.  You may not use it, but you can always tell your spouse it's still a good car for that weekend trip.

None of this makes any sense to me, especially since everyone connected to medium format keeps saying there is no money in cameras, just in digital backs.

If this is so, then why ever limit any digital back sales?

I personally think you have a winner on your hands with the new Sinar, but I also think that a winner shouldn't hobble themselves with any kind of doubt or any limitations.

One thing is for certain.  All medium format has the semi same business model and loves to announce everything in segments.  Just because it's always been done that way doesn't mean that the customer would not like to see a change.

In fact, since all of medium format seems to go through the same process, imagine how far ahead a company would be if they broke from this system.


JR
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Arminw

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #78 on: August 31, 2008, 07:23:25 am »

Well, I have to say it’s all nice and lovely to read about these new products and on paper it looks stunning but what about in the real world? The reality is, Sinar is lacking of proper marketing and has to look into expanding their market-share and winning new customers. I was very interested in buying into the system a couple of month ago, but the fact that I had to almost beg to get information and being shown the Hy6 by a local dealer was to much at the end . I just didn’t feel things where handled in a nice way ... so I went to hasselblad and bought the H3dII39 . I’m just saying if Sinar would have made a bid more effort to sell me the product, give me the information I needed to know I would have married into the system.
I really hope Sinar is changing its strategy in the future and will be more in touch with potential customers giving out proper information.
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eronald

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New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)
« Reply #79 on: August 31, 2008, 07:47:59 am »

Quote
hi Edmund,

I believe, in the contrary to what you are saying, that we have the smallest and clearest choice:

- Sinarback eMotion 54 LV
- Sinarback eMotion 75 (with LV option or not)
- Sinarback eVolution 75 H (Multishot)

and now the Sinarback eSprit 65.

I can't understand where from your belief comes.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218398\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My belief comes from the fact that we have a new 65 camera where the back doesn't rotate and another 65 back which does rotate.

And a 75 with and without an LV option.

And a 75H multishot

And a 54

And the undoubted new models of 75 which will follow the new 65

And the undoubted to be announced larger sensor model.

And the fact that the new 65 is a different chip (Kodak) from the previous ones (Dalsa)

And the Sinar M camera and its lenses

And the Hy6

In the end it's just too much. It's called a bloated product line. It needs simplifying, for marketing reasons, and for production and maintenance reasons.
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