Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: thsinar on August 29, 2008, 04:58:02 am
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For your information:
Sinar has announced today a new integrated MF digital camera system, the Sinar Hy6-65 (31 MPx) and a new camera + digital back, the Sinar Hy6 - s65r, respectively the Sinarback eSprit 65.
----> http://www.sinarcameras.com/site/index__0-...29-50-2168.html (http://www.sinarcameras.com/site/index__0-e-2029-50-2168.html)
The main characteristics:
1. Sinar Hy6-65
- Fully Integrated MF camera system: with optimized communication between lens, camera body, digital engine, and software.
- On-Board image processing with internal "QuadCore Image Processing" (QCIP technology): First digital medium format cameras with completely integrated digital image processing on board.
- Future-oriented data storage: The high-speed data transfer of the Sinar Hy6 65 and Sinar Hy6-s65r allows for capturing images at fast capturing rates and storing them to CF card in DNG and JPEG formats or a combination of them .
JPEG images can be stored in 4 different file sizes and two compression rates. Thus, one is able to send low-resolution JPEGs to the art director or agency immediately after the shooting and process the selected high-resolution images later on.
- 3" bright display with 640 x 480 pixels (280 ppi), with automatic menu orientation, Images, histogram, sensitivity, on-board exposure warning, memory status, white balance.
- File size: 60 MB (DNG and Sinar RAW 16 bit), 181/90 MB (TIFF 48/24 bit)
- Capture rate: 1 image / sec.
- White Balance: Automatic, presets, manual.
- Data storage: High-Speed CF Card (4 GB UDMA CF card included),
alternatively also directly on hard disk via Firewire.
- Active cooling: ventilator.
- Power supply: one (two also possible) rechargeable lithium-ion battery 7.2 V, 2200 mAh.
- Operating time with battery: up to approx. 2000 exposures.
- Firewire interface: IEEE 1394b (800 Mbps, compatible with IEEE 1394a 400 Mbps).
- Capturing software: Sinar eXposure™ 6.1 or later.
- Operating systems: Mac OS X as of 10.4.11, Windows XP as of Service Pack 2, Windows Vista as of Service Pack 1.
- Availability/Delivery: as per September 23rd 2008
2. Sinar Hy6-s65r
- Same as above, but the camera digital back can be used on any other current MF camera with the corresponding adapter interface (Sinar m, Hasselblad V 500 series, Hasselblad H1/H2, Mamiya 645 AFD/AFD II).
- Data storage: The high-speed data transfer of the Sinar Hy6-s65r allows for capturing images at fast capturing rates and storing them to CF card in RAW, DNG, and JPEG format or a combination of them (DNG + JPG or Sinar RAW + JPG).
JPEG images can be stored in 4 different file sizes and two compression rates. Thus, one is able to send low-resolution JPEGs to the art director or agency immediately after the shooting and process the selected high-resolution images later on.
- Revolving Digital Back on the Sinar Hy6.
- Power supply: Two rechargeable lithium-ion batteries 7.2 V, 2200 mAh, for long-lasting operation.
- Live Video
- - Availability/Delivery: as per September 23rd 2008
3. Sinarback eSprit 65
- Single MF digital back, 31 MPx.
- Technical features: same as described above.
- Availability/Delivery: as per September 23rd 2008
Remarks:
- I have purposely not mentioned the ISO range of the above mentioned digital camera system and digital back, since I have no definitive information about it yet. I shall inform as soon I have it.
- Prices available at Photokina.
Here however some first images of these new products:
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Dear Thierry,
Thank you for your information!
It looks like a system a lot of us were hoping to get!
I am impressed with the onboard processing idea.
And the back looks right at last
Yevgeny
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Thanks Thierry,
Is it a KODAK 31mp (P30+/H3DII31)... or a new DALSA chip ?
Great characteristics... and a new nice 3" (rotaring) screen ;
We should (hope) see the same with the "old & beautifull rendering" 22mp Dalsa Chip ?
Regards, François
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Is it a KODAK 31mp (P30+/H3DII31)... or a new DALSA chip ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218035\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Kodak KAF31600CE CCD with full-frame technology and microlenses
Great characteristics... and a new nice 3" (rotaring) screen
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218035\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It is not the display which is rotating, BUT the menu/screen images (orientation sensor)
We should (hope) see the same with the "old & beautifull rendering" 22mp Dalsa Chip ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218035\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Quality is always our first concern, and mainly a software issue: I'm pretty much convinced that it will hold up with a 22 MPx Dalsa.
Best regards,
Thierry
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1. Sinar Hy6-65
- Fully Integrated MF camera system: with optimized communication between lens, camera body, digital engine, and software.
Dear Thierry,
Something is not very clear from the announcement:
Does is mean that Hy6-65 (without r) will not allow us to rotate the back? Is it a take off and reattach adapter, similar to my Sinar unrevolving adapter on the Rollei version of the Hy6?
Yevgeny
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Dear Thierry,
Something is not very clear from the announcement:
Does is mean that Hy6-65 (without r) will not allow us to rotate the back? Is it a take off and reattach adapter, similar to my Sinar unrevolving adapter on the Rollei version of the Hy6?
Yevgeny
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218038\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear Yevgeny,
No, this is not correct:
- the Sinar Hy6 - 65 is a fully integrated camera/back system: the back can however be rotated, by taking it away. The back, however, cannot be used on any other camera platform.
- the Sinar Hy6 - s65r: this camera system uses the Sinarback eSprit 65, with adapter plates. The "r" in the name means that it includes the Sinar revolving adapter. This eSprit back can be used on other MF camera platforms, with the corresponding adapter.
I hope this clarifies.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Sinar has announced today a new integrated MF digital camera system, the Sinar Hy6-65 (31 MPx) and a new camera + digital back, the Sinar Hy6 - s65r.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218031\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
WOW - sounds impressive!
2. Sinar Hy6-s65r
the camera digital back can be used on any other common MF camera with the corresponding adapter interface (Sinar m, Hasselblad V 500 series, Hasselblad H1/H2, Mamiya 645 AFD/AFD II).[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218031\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Contax?
Kodak KAF31600CE CCD with full-frame technology[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What does that mean: "full-frame technology"? The Kodak KAF31600CE is not 645 full frame...
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What does that mean: "full-frame technology"? The Kodak KAF31600CE is not 645 full frame...
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=218041\")
That is a type of CCD sensor, as opposed to interline or linear CCD.
See [a href=\"http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/ISS/Products/Fullframe/index.jhtml?pq-path=12138]http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/IS...l?pq-path=12138[/url]
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See http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/IS...l?pq-path=12138 (http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/ISS/Products/Fullframe/index.jhtml?pq-path=12138)[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Total chip size is 46.05mm x 35.0mm ...
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Exactly, thanks Graham!
I hope not having started again a heated debate about "sensor size" and with those relating it to the size of the sensor.
We are speaking here about the sensor technology used, as named by Kodak.
To make it clear, this sensor has the same size as any other 31,6 MPx sensor used in digital backs: 44x33 mm.
Best regards,
Thierry
That is a type of CCD sensor, as opposed to interline or linear CCD.
See http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/IS...l?pq-path=12138 (http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/ISS/Products/Fullframe/index.jhtml?pq-path=12138)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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We are speaking here about the sensor technology used, as named by Kodak.To make it clear, this sensor has the same size as any other 31,6 MPx sensor used in digital backs: 44x33 mm[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218047\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks. Didn't want to start a "heated debate"... sorry! :-)
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No harm (yet):
Best regards,
Thierry
Thanks. Didn't want to start a "heated debate"... sorry! :-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218048\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
could you please adress my question above regarding Contax interface...
2. Sinar Hy6-s65r
the camera digital back can be used on any other common MF camera with the corresponding adapter interface (Sinar m, Hasselblad V 500 series, Hasselblad H1/H2, Mamiya 645 AFD/AFD II).
Didi you mean "common" or "current"?
Thanks!
Thomas
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Dear Thomas,
Yes, I can answer your question:
- no, there is no adapter plate planed for the Contax 645 camera. One should therefore rather read "current": my apologies for my bad wording, I shall correct.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
could you please adress my question above regarding Contax interface...
Didi you mean "common" or "current"?
Thanks!
Thomas
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218051\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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_ no, there is no adapter plate planed for the Contax 645 camera. One should therefore rather read "current": my apologies for my bad wording, I shall correct.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218052\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Discrimination!!!
Thanks again!
Thomas
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Dear Yevgeny,
No, this is not correct:
- the Sinar Hy6 - 65 is a fully integrated camera/back system: the back can however be rotated, by taking it away. The back, however, cannot be used on any other camera platform.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218040\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear Thierry,
Thank you very much, I got it now.
And even more reasons to visit Photokina this year...
Kind regards,
Yevgeny
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Some questions, Thierry:
It looks as though the camera body is a blacker color scheme?
Did our wailing finally get heard?
Is the lithium-ion 7.2 V, 2200 mAh the same type fitting in the Hy6 handle/grip?
Are the adapter interface plates for the eSprit different from the current eMotion-type and eVolution-type?
Thank you,
Billy
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I don't see any menu navigation controls
so is it a touchscreen?
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Hi Billy,
- yes, it seems that the colours are matching, this time: I promise you that I have insisted.
- It is the same battery as the one for the Hy6.
- The adapters are the same as the ones used for the eMotion backs (eMotion 22, eMotion 54 LV and eMotion 75 / 75 LV).
Best regards,
Thierry
Some questions, Thierry:
It looks as though the camera body is a blacker color scheme?
Did our wailing finally get heard?
Is the lithium-ion 7.2 V, 2200 mAh the same type fitting in the Hy6 handle/grip?
Are the adapter interface plates for the eSprit different from the current eMotion-type and eVolution-type?
Thank you,
Billy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218057\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
great news indeed.
I hope for 1600 "usable-no-noise" ISO
and adapterplates for my V system and Mamiya RZ pro II
patrick
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Dear Patrick,
- as said, ISO range is not yet definitive and we are still working on it: if we can give a usable ISO 1600 we will add it, if not it will be ISO 800.
- Adapter for Hasselbald V system: yes
- Adapter for Mamiya RZ: no
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
great news indeed.
I hope for 1600 "usable-no-noise" ISO
and adapterplates for my V system and Mamiya RZ pro II
patrick
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218064\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Slightly off-topic....
when will the [necessary] 90º finder ship
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Hmmm.... somebody appears to have been listening to wishes vented here. Better display, JPG's on the fly. Definitely some things that people have been asking for. The proof is in the pudding of course but sounds like a very competent new product.
I just agreed to upgrading (maybe I should have waited but circumstances forced me for my own comfort to upgrade) so no potential customer here but it certainly is interesting especially if it comes close or exceeds the H3D31II' s ISO performance. It will be the only 31MP's 'high ISO' back that can be used with adapter plates.
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For your information:
- Active cooling: ventilator.
finally,
the fan.. and a nice looking back at that!
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Thierry,
When you're able to,
would you find out if the LCD will show the captured image
even while tethered?
James brought up this important feature
of the Phase digital backs.
Thanks again,
Billy
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Billy,
I will try to get this information, but probably not before next week.
Thierry
Thierry,
When you're able to,
would you find out if the LCD will show the captured image
even while tethered?
James brought up this important feature
of the Phase digital backs.
Thanks again,
Billy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218087\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Crikey!
I like the look of the new back. I hope Sinar are going to do an upgrade deal - it makes my 54LV feel a tad lightweight; a great back though.
The clincher for me is the straight-to-DNG that the back can do, and the big screen.
Thanks for taking notes of our needs Sinar. It's going to be an interesting Photokina...
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if the adapter plates are the same the contax-e75/54/22 adapter should work as well, or am i wrong herein?
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if it works on the mamiya 645, it should work on the RZ via the mamiya adapter?
a big question is price....i find 30mpix to be a perfect size...waaaay big enough for most things, but with the new other backs announced (full frame, really this time more or less, no really.....) and higher pixel counts and the H3 31 selling for 17000.....this has to come in under/at 20000 to compete.....
but really sounds like somebody listened....funny how everybody is switching with the new systems (sinar-kodak, phase-dalsa...)
great news from sinar....
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hi Rainer,
you are absolutely right: mechanically it does work/fit.
However, the Contax is not longer supported on the firmware level.
Cheers,
Thierry
if the adapter plates are the same the contax-e75/54/22 adapter should work as well, or am i wrong herein?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218121\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Deleted.
Thierry to re-post.
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Deleted.
Thierry to re-post.
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Deleted: re-post
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Thierry,
This really isn't directed at you, or Sinar, or any one company in particular, but for all medium format (actually all professional digital capture).
Dear James,
To say that I was not waiting for your reply would be lying!
Allow me to take it addressed to me (Sinar), otherwise I won't be able to answer precisely.
1. Higher iso. A real clean 800. Not blochy, or noisy in the shadows but an 800 that at least equals the 1ds3. The instances where this is important means the difference from either not getting the shot or pulling out a dslr.
I agree with this, and we are well aware. If you have checked a ISO 800 file of the current eMotion 75 (see my samples posted months ago), then you could see that this in our capacity, to provide clean ISO 800 files.
2. Stable software and a open source file. The software, must be completely 100% stable. One crash, one lost file and the mood in the room changes 100%. When tethering the software must be adjustable. No crunchy or hard previews but the ability to present on screen a very close representation of what the final image will look like. If the first frame on the screen produces a "wow" then the battle is half over. If the response is "is that moire, or is the image going to look like that?" then time, energy and mood is lost in conversation, rather than shooting.
Agreed, of course. I can only suggest to try eXposure, rather than having in your mind that it is certainly not stable. So far it has proven pretty stable. Now, to go as far as saying that a software has never a crash or never hangs: I would never believe this, from none of the manufacturers.
With the Phase backs I and others have tethered to Lightroom even as far as running a processing script in photoshop on files so the client can see exactly where the image is going. The ability to achieve this close to final look in the tethering software has obvious benifits.
Yes, possible with Sinar.
For high volume work the ability to rename, sort and move files quickly is a must. Flipping from one software to the next, just cause complexity and increases the chance to get it wrong, rather than insure that it is right.
Yes, also possible with Sinar.
A file that works direct in almost any 3rd party processor has obvious benifits. I believe digital is a much more intimate process than film, just given the fact that I can take one "roll" and process it over and over in many different labs to achieve a different look. The workflow advantages of an open source file that works in anything just can't be overstated when you are working with thousands of images and a tight deadline.
That's why we have introduced a DNG workflow.
3. In camera processing. Obviously Sinar has addressed this and for quick previews, web galleries etc. if the jpeg is good, the colors close to correct then this can save many hours in workflow. With the Canons I use the small jpegs and do some batch corrections in 3rd party software like lightroom. This makes for very fast previews and processing and keeps the raw files untouched. Working on a 24" I-mac and lightroom I can reprocess out a thousand jpegs for web galleries in just a few minutes.
Yes, agreed, and we have listened.
4. LCD. It seems Sinar has addressed this also, though the proof is in the looking. I've owned Phase, Aptus, Canons (all of them) Leica and Nikon and if you shoot a non tethered image on any camera and compare it to the Nikon LCD, the client will look at the nikon image and say, "yea, use the big camera". Obviously Nikon has raised the bar on what a 3" lcd can do.
I believe that our 3" display comes close to the D3 one, if not equal: it has the same size, same resolution, capability to be adjusted, ...
As Billy said, the lcd to run in parallel with the computer when tethered is a must. For locations where the monitor is 30 feet away it's almost impossible to run over every 10 frames to see if the changes and framing are correct. Even for studio, it takes the attention away from the process for the photographer to have to move over to the monitor to check a lighting change.
I will have to check this one: hold on for a while. I believe that it should not be a big issue if not implemented yet.
5. Cameras. I like the thought of the AFI and HY6 (especially now that it's black and not appliance blue). I would like the thought of the camera a lot better if it worked on any digital back. Not that one back is better than the rest, (these forums are full of those comparisions), but to invest in an expensive system, I would to think that at least the camera is a 10 year buy and will not be viable only if the digital back is vialbe. As we all know things change fast in the digital world.
Well, that has been discussed many times: fact is that it is not accepting Phase One or Hasselblad backs.
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6. Rentals. All of these systems must be in the major market for rentals. With the Contax and it's pricing almost anyone can afford to own two complete systems, but few people will do that with a camera like the AFI and HY6. The lenses, at least the lenses, should be in every major rental house in every major market. What do you do if the 150mm goes down in studio?
Agreed.
7. Price. I know every maker wants to get the news of their new equipment out, but the first thing I look at is price. Not just the buy in for the new equipment, but what I presently have invested. I'm careful in the way I purchase but right now, even with Contax and the smaller P30+ and P21+ backs I have close to $50,000 invested in those systems. For me to scrap that and go to any new back or camera, I have to know exactly what it is going to cost me.
Yes, prices are important for the endusers. Believe me that we do our best here. On the other hand, we cannot calculate a price which we know being a loss for the company. There is a price we need to ask for, seriously calculated, not to steal the money from the customers, but to be able to survive. I agree that it is then the decision of this customer to accept this price or not.
8. Clairty. Maybe I'm reading this wrong but the new HY6 camera annoucement somewhat confuses me. You do have it where it rotates on the camera and you don't have it where it rotates on the camera.
I might also not have been very clear. There are 2 Hy6 camera systems:
- the Sinar Hy6 - 65: it is an integrated system, the back can be taken away and rotated, but this back cannot be adapted to another camera platform/brand.
- the Sinar Hy6 - s65r: this camera system has a REVOLVING adapter. The digital back for this configuration can accept any adapter to mount the back to other MF bodies (Hasselblad V, H1/H2, Mamiya 645, Sinar m). Contax is not longer supported.
Why not just one back that fits the HY6 that rotates?
Is this a cost measure or an engineering problem, actually that doesn't matter to me, but what does matter is the usability.
Both backs rotate: one by taking it away, the other by revolving on/with the adapter.
Why 2 different?: simply because of different needs and different prices.
You mention you might go to 800 iso or might go to 1600 iso. No offense meant but medium format is notorious for making a "suggestion" and then not following up for long time.
I have PURPOSELY not indicated the definitive ISO range, because we are still working on it. If we are able to deliver a CLEAN ISO 1600, then we will implement it at Photokina. If not, then it will be ISO 800 AT Photokina. Concerning the quality of this ISO 800, and without having tested/seen it yet, I beleive that it will be at least as good as the ISO 800 available from the eMotion 75 MPx, probably better.
Once again I know you want to get your message out, but I don't understand partial messages because at this price range you can't make a decision based on partial information.
This is not a matter of not wanting to tell, but simply a wish to give the best possible without making false promises or statements.
Take this with a grain of salt as this is just what I need from a system and I don't know if it is what others would necessarily ask for.
I do take it seriously. Your input is valuable and am convinced that many others see it this way also.
I wish you all the best with your new camera.
JR
Thanks James, much appreciated.
best regards,
Thierry
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Can't wait to hear prices, and see how good the screen is. I demoed the Hy6 75LV, and the camera handles like a dream.
Best,
Mitchell
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Billy,
No, it is not touchscreen.
There is a little "rolling" knob which does the navigation, when moved in the different directions: very convenient to use, and fast with it.
It is the outer left (brighter grey) knob.
Best regards,
Thierry
I don't see any menu navigation controls
so is it a touchscreen?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218060\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Some more information as it comes in:
Supported image parameters from the menu:
- Contrast
- Saturation
- Unsharp mask
- Noise filter
- Automatic white balance / color temperature
- 3 color spaces (sRGB, Adobe RGB and ECI RGB)
Best regards,
Thierry
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A Sinar employee reminded me that Jenoptic created the in-camera processing for Leica M8 DNGs.
The new Hy6 65 builds on the same technology, like Leica, with a Kodak chip. As M8 files seem to hit well above their 11MB weight, it will be interesting to see how the 65 does with true 16 bit files. Also the M8 screen, while smaller than the 65's 3 inch screen, does well fueled by in-camera jpegs.
Best,
Mitchell
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So far I'm impressed
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- Adapter for Mamiya RZ: no
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3 color spaces ... ECI RGB[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218205\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
good!
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Auto WB - excellent!
But no Contax adapter?! Boo! I have a great range of lenses for my Contax including a tilt/shift 100mm and a Hasselblad 110mm f2 with an adapter that I use often on my Contax, and I would still like to be able to use these lenses and body with any new digital back I buy. The cost of upgrading the back is high enough, without the need for a new body and lenses....
Please reconsider!
Ben
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Dear Ben,
I have forwarded your remark/wish, as well as all others going in the same direction, and asked for reconsideration.
Best regards,
Thierry
But no Contax adapter?!
Please reconsider!
Ben
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218229\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Ben,
I have forwarded your remark/wish, as well as all others going in the same direction, and asked for reconsideration.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218249\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have to admit I'm really amazed by all of this. I heard a rumor that Sinar was going to have a new lcd and in camera processing, but quite honestly I didn't take it all that seriously, because rumors in the camera world are abundant.
If Sinar can really get a clean 800 iso (and by clean not just 800 iso but detailed smooth 800) then with all the other features that is something to consider.
I've always said don't give me something I currently have give me something I can't live without.
Obviously I'd love to see a Contax mount, if only to make a transition easier from the HY6 to the current system I use and the ability to make my 75lb case of lenses still viable.
I think the ability to change mounts of a mfdb is beyond a plus. Not only it is one way to make the price of a back easier to take, but it allows for so many different looks.
Even if you wanted to use the back 90% of the time on an HY6 there are other uses like the RZ for in studio beauty and the Contax using tilt shifts, the 35mm and the fast 80mm.
Also it gives you a way to have a backup without spending another $10,000.
Now Theirry we are we waiting for the other shoe to fall.
No disrespect meant to anyone, but a lot of the time, medium format tends to not be that on point when it comes to delivery and getting all of the kinks worked out at delivery.
Also some mediuum format is also not that good at meeting their own self imposed deadlines.
If this new back and camera has everything that is promised, a clean high iso, stable software and is competitive in price you really have something.
That and if it's marketed well. Medium format seems to make the marketing effort difficult at best and in fact lately I could write a small book on the challanges in the medium format marketing effort.
Once again, I wish you the best with this camera. If it hits all the points it will be good for our industry.
Sinar was obviously not just listening, they responded.
I am still amazed.
JR
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- Prices available at Photokina.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218031\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry,
I'm sure you're a nice guy, but to just give you some feedback from a potential customer: Why would you come to the town square, like a Town Crier, and yell out all this information, but not have a price for it? You guys wonder why we accuse you MF reps of being used-car salesmen, and this is one reason. It just feels like bait-and-switch, or in the least, "get the customer hyped up", instead of one man looking into another man's eyes, and saying "here is my product; these are the details; this is the price", like a respectable man would.
This camera system does indeed sound interesting, and it does sound like Sinar has listened and responded, but seriously, to do business this way is infuriating.
Would be like someone strolling down the streets of Amsterdam one lovely night, and the girl in the window says, "this is my product", and the customer says "How much?", and the girl says "Uh, I'm not sure, call me next week".
Trust me, it's as basic as that.
This is business, not personal. But if you want to know what's behind some of the resentment toward most anything MediumFormat, it's practices like not having your act together when you come to market.
Would Apple Computer announce a product without all the details? No way in hell. You want Apple loyalty?; then treat customers like grown-ups. I know you're excited, but you have to know the effect of half-disclosure.
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I beleive that it will be at least as good as the ISO 800 available from the eMotion 75 MPx, probably better.
If Sinar can really get a clean 800 iso (and by clean not just 800 iso but detailed smooth 800) then with all the other features that is something to consider.
James, Here are the 800 ISO examples from the eMotion75LV-II with Dalsa 33MP :
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683)
.
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Would be like someone strolling down the streets of Amsterdam one lovely night, and the girl in the window says, "this is my product", and the customer says "How much?", and the girl says "Uh, I'm not sure, call me next week". [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218275\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Maybe. But here is no girl, yet. Just a poster with the girl under the headline: "will be here next week."
What's the problem? It's an announcement - less than that. A kind of preview of what one can - probably! - expect from the upcoming product. And when it's out... there will be a price.
So read the the thread again after photokina. No?
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Once again, I wish you the best with this camera. If it hits all the points it will be good for our industry.
Sinar was obviously not just listening, they responded.
I am still amazed.
JR
Well, if THAT isn't the highest compliment,
and deserved for 1 fps, "D3" class LCD (TBD), DNG format, simultaneous JPEG, FW800
I was the original complainer of the color scheme, and it was addressed as well.
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=185636 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24174&view=findpost&p=185636)
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php...58&postcount=14 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24858&postcount=14)
However, still pending are:
- whereabouts of 90º finder
- whereabouts of electronic cable releases
- more AF lenses are needed aside from the expected 35mm focal length
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Trust me, it's as basic as that.
This is business, not personal.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218275\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Since I'm a list guy, I have a list for getting a camera to market.
1. Price it. Not just the body, or the finders or the new lenses, but everything. Body, finder, lenses, legacy lenses, where you can get them, what they cost in each market. I routinely estimate jobs in three markets, like Portugal, San Francisco and New York and do it down to the fine detail of talent, catering, weather, location fees, etc. and if my studio can go to this detail, so can Sinar or any company.
2. Meet the delivery deadlines. If you won't have everything (underscore everything) out at a certain time, then give yourself a longer deadline. Don't miss it because the moment you break a promise you lose credibility.
3. Demonstrate the software. Look at Adobe's Dr. Brown videos. Those are on point and easy to understand. Show your software in action. Show what happens when a series of files have to be renamed, or moved or background processed. Durinng this, shoot 12 frames and pull the firewire cord to show how easy (or not easy) it is to reconnect. Get that information on the web and in downloadable fashion and prove to your customer that you are not the best solution, you are the only solution.
4. Once again, get it in rentals. I don't expect to find a new Hy6 in Des Moinse, but I do expect to rent a backup (if needed) in Paris, London, Milan, New York, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Miami, Los Angeles. You'd be smart to add Dallas, Chicago and Barcelona.
5. Put this camera in good photographers hands and get some beautiful imagery shot with it.
I and a lot of others are approached by camera companies. Some are quite good and honest at marketing and others well to be polite just seem to be all over the place. Have great photographers shoot great imagery and treat the people that use your cameras with the same respect you want for your own self and company. Keep the marketing honest and to the point and show beautiful imagery.
6. Once again clarity. Don't spend time driving over the backs, putting them in microwaves, or calling something full frame that is not full frame. Your selling to a professional market and the message should be simple and professional. As gwitif says, look at Apple. It's to the point, it's professional, it's clean, it's available.
7. Follow up on everything. I've owned about $140,000 in digital cameras and backs and not once have I had one company or dealer call me and ask if I was happy with my purchase. I can take my wife's car in for an oil change at the dealer and I get three calls asking if the service was satisfactory.
8. Respect your customers. (See #7). Don't send out generic lists asking for 15 minutes of my time to slot into some kind of focus group presentation (See Hasselblad for what not to do). Make the call, ask the questions, volunteer your services and even if your customer declines he will always appreciate it.
9. Get in front of the hard issues. See Yair of Leaf and Rick of Leaf Of America for this example. If a customer has a problem then get in front of it, get a result and give an answer. Rick is available 8 hours a day, Yair I think 24 hours a day (sorry Yair) and they get to a result. Theirry I'm sure your good in your market and obviously good on this forum, but once past you there doesn't seem to be a lot of information from Sinar. Correct me if I'm wrong.
JR
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german site photoscala published the press release from sinar:
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Mittelfor...t-31-Megapixeln (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Mittelformatsysstem-Sinar-Hy6-65-mit-31-Megapixeln)
it says iso 200 to 800 (?!), exposures from 1/1000 to 32 sec, Jpgs with 31, 17, 8 and 3 MP and some other stuff...
martin.
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hi gwhitf,
It has little to do with being a nice guy or taking it on a personal level, but rather with being open, as open as possible. I guess you have seen some changes when it comes to being open, concerning Sinar, those last couple of years. And you will most certainly see more in the future.
This was/is an announcement, like Apple (by well-directed rumours, among others) and many other big companies are doing them: by giving the information about a product to come. The day this product is then presented, this same day you have the prices. Apple is doing it this way, and many others, included in our field.
You will see the Sinar Hy6 - 65, the Sinar Hy6 s65r and the Sinarback eSprit 65 at Photokina, on September 23rd, and then the prices will be published. This is in 3 weeks time.
Now, if I have not given the prices, it is simply because there are reasons for this, the most important being that I don't have them yet, not because I was denied the right to publish them, or for any other obscure reason.
I really don't see the problem here, and how it can be such infuriating. Sounds a bit harsh for me. I (Sinar) have simply informed about the direction we are going to. Of course my hope is to create some interest among some, and hopefully as many as possible. Sounds fair and logical. But again, "hype" seems here as well a harsh wording, especially if one takes the literal definition (greatly exaggerated publicity).
Anyway, I shall continue to publish the information as it comes to me, for the sake of trying to give a more open image, but apparently with the risk of still being criticized.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
I'm sure you're a nice guy, but to just give you some feedback from a potential customer: Why would you come to the town square, like a Town Crier, and yell out all this information, but not have a price for it? You guys wonder why we accuse you MF reps of being used-car salesmen, and this is one reason. It just feels like bait-and-switch, or in the least, "get the customer hyped up", instead of one man looking into another man's eyes, and saying "here is my product; these are the details; this is the price", like a respectable man would.
This camera system does indeed sound interesting, and it does sound like Sinar has listened and responded, but seriously, to do business this way is infuriating.
Would be like someone strolling down the streets of Amsterdam one lovely night, and the girl in the window says, "this is my product", and the customer says "How much?", and the girl says "Uh, I'm not sure, call me next week".
Trust me, it's as basic as that.
This is business, not personal. But if you want to know what's behind some of the resentment toward most anything MediumFormat, it's practices like not having your act together when you come to market.
Would Apple Computer announce a product without all the details? No way in hell. You want Apple loyalty?; then treat customers like grown-ups. I know you're excited, but you have to know the effect of half-disclosure.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218275\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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James, Here are the 800 ISO examples from the eMotion75LV-II with Dalsa 33MP :
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683)
.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218278\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
Thanks Billy,
Iso is hard to view on the web or for that matter for what most of us use high iso for.
I've seen samples of 800 iso on a lot of cameras shot overexposed or with a lot of light (I don't mean these samples are like that), though if you have a lot of light, or can overexpose then it really doesn't equate to what we use high iso for.
I can site 4 examples in the last 4 weeks where I used 800 iso that saved the shot. Shooting in Miami where the weather turned to hell and black outside, required about 8 billion watts of strobe to make the outside sunlight bright, continuous lights inside to balance the model and without a clean 800, we would have just waited or not got the shot.
The P30+ does do 800 iso clean with a lot of light, but then again that's what we use that iso for.
I've shot it with hmi's at 800 iso in something like the Miami scenario and it blocks up and renders funny and I've processed the files in 4 convertors trying to find the right look and each time the results are not even close to the new Canons.
Obviously I can and do carry other cameras for just these instances, but sometimes that's just not the best process. For one it's difficult to go from the 2:3 canon crop to the 4:3 Contax crop and I get in a zone with a camera, switiching takes some concentration.
Also just carrying extra camera systems is now a nightmare on the airlines, domestic as well as international.
I have a project coming up in three countries in Asia. If my medium format backs would go to 800 iso, then it's one camera case, but as of today it's two, maybe three.
JR
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hi Billy,
- 90° Finder: I was told that we will have the first 3 at our Photokina booth
- Cable Release: also at our booth, during Photokina
- Zoom AFD 60-140 is in production and the first units are available
- 35 AFD Flektogon is expected as prototype for Photokina
Best regards,
Thierry
Edited for correction: the 35mm AFD will most certainly not be available as prototype at Photokina (latest information)
However, still pending are:
- whereabouts of 90º finder
- whereabouts of electronic cable releases
- more AF lenses are needed aside from the expected 35mm focal length
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218281\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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- 90° Finder: I was told that we will have the first 3 at our Photokina booth
Do you know the reason for the delay?
- Cable Release: also at our booth, during Photokina
Shipping a camera for almost a year without a cable release provision wasn't smart planning on F&H's part.
Please bring back the mechanical cable release socket present in all the Rollei-6000 series camera bodies.
- Zoom AFD 60-140 is in production and the first units are available
"The Beast" Did they find a way to make it smaller?
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James,
since you ask me to correct you if wrong, I do it.
I really think you are wrong and that there are many other helpful Sinar resps, service persons, tech persons, etc ... from Sinar directly or from our distributors, who do all take over when it comes to an issue and who actually go in front of it and deliver a result.
Dig a bit on this forum or on others: it is not only me being on LL and helping to solve. I have read many compliments recently about the service and support provided in the US.
I will however not go as far as to wish to have you as customer and then have a problem with the product to prove what I am telling.
I simply want to say that things have changed, and you might not yet be well aware of it.
As for the rest of your list, point 1. to 8.: I do fully adhere to it and it has already gone its way to Sinar.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Since I'm a list guy, I have a list for getting a camera to market.
9. Get in front of the hard issues. See Yair of Leaf and Rick of Leaf Of America for this example. If a customer has a problem then get in front of it, get a result and give an answer. Rick is available 8 hours a day, Yair I think 24 hours a day (sorry Yair) and they get to a result. Theirry I'm sure your good in your market and obviously good on this forum, but once past you there doesn't seem to be a lot of information from Sinar. Correct me if I'm wrong.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Billy,
it was not in my luggage, when I came back from Switzerland last week, and I haven't seen it. But I expect it to be approximatively the same.
Thierry
Thanks, Thierry.
Did they somehow make it smaller?
It is an absolute beast (huge).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218298\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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FYI:
I had at the time of this post made the DNG available and many have downloaded it: if you read the comments of those having "dissected" it to the last detail, there was only "wows" and "disbelief".
Concerning the light conditions under which it was shot: I did the shot, in the early morning when the sun was about to rise, with very little light (f5.6 at 1/40th and under-exposed by about 2.5 stops)
Best regards,
Thierry
Thanks Billy,
Iso is hard to view on the web or for that matter for what most of us use high iso for.
I've seen samples of 800 iso on a lot of cameras shot overexposed or with a lot of light (I don't mean these samples are like that), though if you have a lot of light, or can overexpose then it really doesn't equate to what we use high iso for.
I can site 4 examples in the last 4 weeks where I used 800 iso that saved the shot. Shooting in Miami where the weather turned to hell and black outside, required about 8 billion watts of strobe to make the outside sunlight bright, continuous lights inside to balance the model and without a clean 800, we would have just waited or not got the shot.
The P30+ does do 800 iso clean with a lot of light, but then again that's what we use that iso for.
I've shot it with hmi's at 800 iso in something like the Miami scenario and it blocks up and renders funny and I've processed the files in 4 convertors trying to find the right look and each time the results are not even close to the new Canons.
Obviously I can and do carry other cameras for just these instances, but sometimes that's just not the best process. For one it's difficult to go from the 2:3 canon crop to the 4:3 Contax crop and I get in a zone with a camera, switiching takes some concentration.
Also just carrying extra camera systems is now a nightmare on the airlines, domestic as well as international.
I have a project coming up in three countries in Asia. If my medium format backs would go to 800 iso, then it's one camera case, but as of today it's two, maybe three.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218294\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Do you know the reason for the delay?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218298\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nope, but I suspect James is right when saying "plan longer deadline when not sure".
Please bring back the mechanical cable release socket present in all the Rollei-6000 series camera bodies.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218298\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not sure if this is feasible.
Thierry
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Please bring back the mechanical cable release socket present in all the Rollei-6000 series camera bodies.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218298\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have a 6008 and I use an electronic release. It is so much better than a mechanical release. I think they made the right decision. It's an easy part to make so I assume they've been flat out with other things. I use my remote release a lot and agree that it's a very useful and important accessory.
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Obviously I'd love to see a Contax mount, if only to make a transition easier from the HY6 to the current system I use ...
Also it gives you a way to have a backup without spending another $10,000.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218269\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
BTW:
This is one of the strongest arguments pro open compatiblity I've ever read.
To close the camera for Phase One and Hasselblad Backs... okay, to a certain extend that's somehow understandable from the manufacturers standpoint (though I doubt about that).
But in this case (Contax) we are talking about the compatibility of the new back to a discontinued camera system (that is currently still quite common but will die sooner or later).
Basically you send the Contax guys to Phase One! Not really clever.
-
BTW:
This is one of the strongest arguments pro open compatiblity I've ever read.
To close the camera for Phase One and Hasselblad Backs... okay, to a certain extend that's somehow understandable from the manufacturers standpoint (though I doubt about that).
But in this case (Contax) we are talking about the compatibility of the new back to a discontinued camera system (that is currently still quite common but will die sooner or later).
Basically you send the Contax guys to Phase One! Not really clever.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218328\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, you're right - I went to bed last night thinking "oh well, maybe I'll just have to get a Phase back instead".
Thierry - thanks for passing on my Contax mount request.
Ben
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Yes, you're right - I went to bed last night thinking "oh well, maybe I'll just have to get a Phase back instead". [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218359\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hmh... which is a great choice if you don't need in camera processing and/or big screen on the back, no?
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This was/is an announcement, like Apple (by well-directed rumours, among others) and many other big companies are doing them: by giving the information about a product to come. The day this product is then presented, this same day you have the prices. Apple is doing it this way, and many others, included in our field.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218293\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry,
My point to you is: Come to the table with full information, or why not just stay silent until you get it? Why come to the table with half a plate full? Because you know, the very next thing people will ask is: How much?
You treat this thing like these camera decisions are some weekend fun project -- many of us here earn our livelihood with these cameras -- we don't have day jobs. It's somewhat serious business. And think back over the last few months, about how many rumors and introductions there have been -- from Sinar and Leaf and Phase and Hasselblad. And I know you only are concerned with your brand, but imagine us out here, trying to keep up with the details and feature of all these cryptic naming conventions. Hell, with Hasselblad alone, I was lost months ago. I can't tell you what one back/camera does, or what size file it shoots, or whether it's shipping. With so much half-information out there, sooner or later, your eyes (and your interest) just glazes over, and you say "Screw it, I'll just go to B&H and get a 1ds3 and be done with it".
I'm just saying to you -- think of the customer, and try to come to the table with a complete picture of what you're "introducing". Otherwise, human nature just says, "God, he doesn't even know the price, so let's not even contemplate that model".
When Apple announces a new computer, it's done with full details -- full feature sheet, full price list, and firm shipping date. All you'd have to do is copy their business model and you'd be light years ahead.
MediumFormat is frought with camera after camera that's HALF-FINISHED. At some point, every announcement of a new medium format camera/back is going to be treated like "The Boy That Cried Wolf", and sooner or later, we're just going to stop listening and ignore you til you bring complete details to the table.
If you were buying for your business, wouldn't you insist on the same? Why introduce Doubt into an already shaky reputation?
I used to have an Assistant that did something very similar to this -- I'd send him to get a bogen stand, and he'd come back (without anything in his hand), and say, "Uh, we've used all the Bogen stands." So I'd say, "OK, how about just a normal Cstand?", and he'd go back and get a Cstand, but he'd get one without the Arm and the Knuckle on it, so I'd send him back again. This is what it's like dealing with so many medium format companies -- you have to send them back five times to get an honest answer about most anything, and by the fifth time, good chances you're probably pissed off about it.
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If the new Sinar LCD has a resolution of 640 x480 ppi, does that not work out to 326,000 ppi? The Nikon D3 LCD that Sinar is claiming its new LCD is the equal of has around 930,000 ppi.
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If the new Sinar LCD has a resolution of 640 x480 ppi, does that not work out to 326,000 ppi? The Nikon D3 LCD that Sinar is claiming its new LCD is the equal of has around 930,000 ppi.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218380\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nikon LCD is 640x480x3(RGB)=900K pixels
Typical laptop LCD is 100ppi
CRTs were 72ppi
I believe iPhone LCD is ~ 200ppi
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Nikon LCD is 640x480x3(RGB)=900K pixels
Typical laptop LCD is 100ppi
CRTs were 72ppi
I believe iPhone LCD is ~ 200ppi
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218381\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks. I wonder why Sinar is able to pull this off and the other MFDB makers cannot. Kudos to Sinar. Too bad it probably won't make all that much difference in its market share. People talk a good game about what they really really want, but in the end they buy the same old same old no matter what.
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Thierry,
My point to you is: Come to the table with full information, or why not just stay silent until you get it? Why come to the table with half a plate full? Because you know, the very next thing people will ask is: How much?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218362\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think this camera is great news. I want to know the price of course but I don't have a problem with how things have been presented this time.
You'll know the price very soon. Don't bee so impatient.
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Thierry,
No malice intended, but Sinar really has too many models now. It's not believable that a small company can coordinate parts, software, manufacture, testing and calibration for all these different submodels.
The software savings alone for just one model with one sensor would be substantial. Make the biggest and one average size one - and you'll be believable again.
Edmund
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First of all I like to say well done Sinar.
My question is,as the new back's sensor is a Kodak one with Micro lenses,will this be usable
on shift camera's?
After all,isn't this the same sensor as the P-30?
I'm happy with my eMotion-75LV btw,so I can't see myself upgrading to this new back,unless
there is a version with a non-micro lens sensor.
IOW a new 75LV model II.
I do like the new design and 3 inch screen and features etc.
Regards,
Willem.
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Thierry,
No malice intended, but Sinar really has too many models now. It's not believable that a small company can coordinate parts, software, manufacture, testing and calibration for all these different submodels.
The software savings alone for just one model with one sensor would be substantial. Make the biggest and one average size one - and you'll be believable again.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218385\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear gwhitf,
I've been thinking and minding a long time before I answered your first post, searching and trying to find what could definitively be wrong in announcing a product which will be available (delivered, not presented) in 3 weeks: I definitively have to disagree with you.
I don't think that this adds any confusion. I am well aware that buying a camera/back is nothing short from being a serious issue, and should be considered to be rather an investment than a purchase.
Concerning lately spread rumours: I have checked, but seen none "from Sinar" like you claim it. Should there have been one, I would have stood firm to deny it, if BS.
Yes, you are right: when Apple announces a new computer, all the details, included the price are there. You forget the many "insider" rumours which are patiently and purposely released and spread around: do you think they come from nowhere?
Anyway, I beg once again to be patient for just 3 weeks.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
My point to you is: Come to the table with full information, or why not just stay silent until you get it? Why come to the table with half a plate full? Because you know, the very next thing people will ask is: How much?
You treat this thing like these camera decisions are some weekend fun project -- many of us here earn our livelihood with these cameras -- we don't have day jobs. It's somewhat serious business. And think back over the last few months, about how many rumors and introductions there have been -- from Sinar and Leaf and Phase and Hasselblad. And I know you only are concerned with your brand, but imagine us out here, trying to keep up with the details and feature of all these cryptic naming conventions. Hell, with Hasselblad alone, I was lost months ago. I can't tell you what one back/camera does, or what size file it shoots, or whether it's shipping. With so much half-information out there, sooner or later, your eyes (and your interest) just glazes over, and you say "Screw it, I'll just go to B&H and get a 1ds3 and be done with it".
I'm just saying to you -- think of the customer, and try to come to the table with a complete picture of what you're "introducing". Otherwise, human nature just says, "God, he doesn't even know the price, so let's not even contemplate that model".
When Apple announces a new computer, it's done with full details -- full feature sheet, full price list, and firm shipping date. All you'd have to do is copy their business model and you'd be light years ahead.
MediumFormat is frought with camera after camera that's HALF-FINISHED. At some point, every announcement of a new medium format camera/back is going to be treated like "The Boy That Cried Wolf", and sooner or later, we're just going to stop listening and ignore you til you bring complete details to the table.
If you were buying for your business, wouldn't you insist on the same? Why introduce Doubt into an already shaky reputation?
I used to have an Assistant that did something very similar to this -- I'd send him to get a bogen stand, and he'd come back (without anything in his hand), and say, "Uh, we've used all the Bogen stands." So I'd say, "OK, how about just a normal Cstand?", and he'd go back and get a Cstand, but he'd get one without the Arm and the Knuckle on it, so I'd send him back again. This is what it's like dealing with so many medium format companies -- you have to send them back five times to get an honest answer about most anything, and by the fifth time, good chances you're probably pissed off about it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218362\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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hi Edmund,
I believe, in the contrary to what you are saying, that we have the smallest and clearest choice:
- Sinarback eMotion 54 LV
- Sinarback eMotion 75 (with LV option or not)
- Sinarback eVolution 75 H (Multishot)
and now the Sinarback eSprit 65.
I can't understand where from your belief comes.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
No malice intended, but Sinar really has too many models now. It's not believable that a small company can coordinate parts, software, manufacture, testing and calibration for all these different submodels.
The software savings alone for just one model with one sensor would be substantial. Make the biggest and one average size one - and you'll be believable again.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218385\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Nikon LCD is 640x480x3(RGB)=900K pixels
Typical laptop LCD is 100ppi
CRTs were 72ppi
I believe iPhone LCD is ~ 200ppi
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218381\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually, it is now only Phase One that has small LCDs on the back of their latest digital backs.
Leaf has had a 3.5" touch screen for ages now, and were the first to go that large, but granted, AFAIK, it is 320 x 240.
Hasselblad went to a 3" LCD when they released the H3DII series.
Now Sinar too is in 3" territory, leaving only Phase One alone in 2.2" land.
Is this what you meant? Or did I miss the point?
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hi Willem,
I believe, without having tested it yet, that it will all depend on your focal length and the amount of shift (tilt/swing) used.
In other words, the longer the focal length or the less shift, the less problems with CC due to the micro-lenses.
The shorter the lens and/or the more shift (tilt/swing), the more you will get into this issue.
The question being now how far can one shift (tilt/swing) with a given focal length: as soon as I have some more details, I shall give them.
Best regards,
Thierry
My question is,as the new back's sensor is a Kodak one with Micro lenses,will this be usable
on shift camera's?
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218386\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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This was a question that I had too, Thierry. Since there only is the 55mm PCS lens now with tilt/shift - it would be great to know how the new Hy6 backs work with that lens in particular.
Eric
hi Willem,
I believe, without having tested it yet, that it will all depend on your focal length and the amount of shift (tilt/swing) used.
In other words, the longer the focal length or the less shift, the less problems with CC due to the micro-lenses.
The shorter the lens and/or the more shift (tilt/swing), the more you will get into this issue.
The question being now how far can one shift (tilt/swing) with a given focal length: as soon as I have some more details, I shall give them.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218400\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Yes, you are right: when Apple announces a new computer, all the details, included the price are there. You forget the many "insider" rumours which are patiently and purposely released and spread around: do you think they come from nowhere?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218397\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry,
Best wishes. You obviously have your own agenda, and outlook on how business should be done.
I'm also saying that, if an Apple employee came onto a discussion board like this, even in his personal time, and disclosed something three weeks in advance, with his corporate Signature at the bottom of his post, he'd probably be fired the next day. But again, this shows the marketing prowess (and related customer loyalty) of Apple Computer versus Sinar.
It's not about disclosing a secret in advance, it's about disclosing incomplete and confusing information to the customer. But we can agree to disagree. Good luck with your launch.
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Yes, you are right: when Apple announces a new computer, all the details, included the price are there. You forget the many "insider" rumours which are patiently and purposely released and spread around: do you think they come from nowhere?
Anyway, I beg once again to be patient for just 3 weeks.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218397\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
OK, here's the thing I don't get about medium format. And this doesn't really apply to Sinar but all of the brands.
If you have a new back that hits all the points, high iso, great lcd, in camera processing, stable software . . . if it really does do all of this and the price is competitive then why not just wait until everything is in place and advertise the hell out of it?
If it's available, the supply and service network is in place and it does everything as advertised then it should sell like crazy, or at least what ever "sell like crazy" is in the medium format world.
It's not like your going to loose a sale to the new 65mpx phase, the 50mpx Hasselblad or the rotating sensor Leaf. I doubt if their stuff will be ready to buy at Photokina anyway.
The thing is and once again this goes for all medium format cameras, there is not one single new product that has been announced in the last few weeks that you can walk in and buy. Even the previous products do not have everything in place. Maybe lenses, maybe software, maybe tilt shift gizmos, maybe viewfinders but none of even the past generation of product has everything
ready to use and of course now we have new product being introduced because it's a trade show year.
Now this may seem like a novel thought, but I don't really think the manufacturers are seeing this from the buyers standpoint.
I've owned five medium format backs from two companies. Not one had everything ready to roll when it was delivered. They were close, they worked, but going back and reading the original pdf and then putting them in use, there was some element that wasn't exactly there.
To make it even more frustrating, just about the time everything was "almost" in place . . . software, wi-fi, software, (did I say software), the respective companies introduced new product.
So if this is an investment, rather than a purchase (I'm not sure if I understand the difference), I want all the facts I can get on the investment and anything out of place makes me think twice, maybe three times if this is a good investment.
The thing is, there is no reason to do it this way and put doubt in the customer's mind. Just wait until it's really ready or better yet, wait until I can buy it.
The no Contax or RZ mount really puzzles me. Not because I own a Contax it would puzzle me if I had a closet full of hy6's.
There are about 2 billion guys shooting in New York with film in RZ's and Contax. They only go to digital when a client "requests" it and then usually just rent the whole package from a tech company and that is usually either a Phase or Leaf mounted on an H series blad.
Think about that market that probably would be the perfect customer to sell a back with a 3" good lcd polaroid, in camera processing and hopefully easy to use software.
With interchangable mounts that would be perfect market to first sell them a back, then ease them into a new camera system, as they would know they have their trusty ol' RZ or contax for backup or just on the days they want to shoot digital with a RZ or contax.
Now take the guys that own phase or leaf and have them mounted on an RZ or contax. If the new Sinar can go onto that camera that takes a lot of sting out of the investment to just buy a new back, rather than firesale the back and the camera to make the move to the Sinar.
Even if they just went straight to the HY6 and never used thier RZ again, knowing it was possible makes the "investment" a little easier to talk yourself into.
Kind of like a trunk on a Porsche. You may not use it, but you can always tell your spouse it's still a good car for that weekend trip.
None of this makes any sense to me, especially since everyone connected to medium format keeps saying there is no money in cameras, just in digital backs.
If this is so, then why ever limit any digital back sales?
I personally think you have a winner on your hands with the new Sinar, but I also think that a winner shouldn't hobble themselves with any kind of doubt or any limitations.
One thing is for certain. All medium format has the semi same business model and loves to announce everything in segments. Just because it's always been done that way doesn't mean that the customer would not like to see a change.
In fact, since all of medium format seems to go through the same process, imagine how far ahead a company would be if they broke from this system.
JR
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Well, I have to say it’s all nice and lovely to read about these new products and on paper it looks stunning but what about in the real world? The reality is, Sinar is lacking of proper marketing and has to look into expanding their market-share and winning new customers. I was very interested in buying into the system a couple of month ago, but the fact that I had to almost beg to get information and being shown the Hy6 by a local dealer was to much at the end . I just didn’t feel things where handled in a nice way ... so I went to hasselblad and bought the H3dII39 . I’m just saying if Sinar would have made a bid more effort to sell me the product, give me the information I needed to know I would have married into the system.
I really hope Sinar is changing its strategy in the future and will be more in touch with potential customers giving out proper information.
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hi Edmund,
I believe, in the contrary to what you are saying, that we have the smallest and clearest choice:
- Sinarback eMotion 54 LV
- Sinarback eMotion 75 (with LV option or not)
- Sinarback eVolution 75 H (Multishot)
and now the Sinarback eSprit 65.
I can't understand where from your belief comes.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218398\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My belief comes from the fact that we have a new 65 camera where the back doesn't rotate and another 65 back which does rotate.
And a 75 with and without an LV option.
And a 75H multishot
And a 54
And the undoubted new models of 75 which will follow the new 65
And the undoubted to be announced larger sensor model.
And the fact that the new 65 is a different chip (Kodak) from the previous ones (Dalsa)
And the Sinar M camera and its lenses
And the Hy6
In the end it's just too much. It's called a bloated product line. It needs simplifying, for marketing reasons, and for production and maintenance reasons.
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OK, here's the thing I don't get about medium format. And this doesn't really apply to Sinar but all of the brands.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218410\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James,
All the brands are moving to integrated camera-back combos. They just won't come out and say it clearly. Prices are going to crash too, look at the H3DII.
Edmund
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It's called a bloated product line. It needs simplifying, for marketing reasons, and for production and maintenance reasons.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218435\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Wow, you think 4 backs is bloated? I'm happy that Sinar gives customers the choice of LV or the rotating adapter. If you are going to count different options as completely different backs, then doesn't Phase have something like 12-15 backs?
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hi Edmund,
I believe, in the contrary to what you are saying, that we have the [span style=\'font-size:21pt;line-height:100%\']smallest[/span] and clearest choice:
- Sinarback eMotion 54 LV
- Sinarback eMotion 75 (with LV option or not)
- Sinarback eVolution 75 H (Multishot)
and now the Sinarback eSprit 65.
I can't understand where from your belief comes.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218398\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry, Love the screen choice and all of the upcoming improvements!!!
Sinar is known for having the widest choice/range of Cameras.... I hope it stays that way!!!
However, there must be someone/few decision makers at the top... one that lacks the creative talent but lives with common sense and the other that lacks the common sense but lives with creative talent!!! Now, that would be a perfect score 10 if they would share each other's forte.... sadly in this case it seems like they are far from it although they do manage with your/others input!!!
I seriously think you/all/manufacturers should pay attention to what James/others are saying... in this case it's pitty we all love Photography more than Commerce even though today it's all Photography!!!
Thierry, I hope all of us are not blind to see your contribution/signature on the new DBs.... along that road via James/others plenty could be done so that Sinar/we finally have not a Horse for the race, rather Horse to Lead!!!
It's all about convenience.... So, unless Manufaturers/somebody/etc. is listening very closely
the fact remains and the gap will only be more apparent/stronger.... that ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME/PHASE!!!
Att: RED, LEAF, SINAR, SEITZ, HASSELBLAD, PHASE!!!
[span style=\'font-size:11pt;line-height:100%\']Option/Choice = CONVENIENCE!!![/span]
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Edmund,
I do really not follow your mind! If this is having a too large program, then what do you have to say about those having, beside their current "normal" products, a whole line-up of re-furbished backs, in x different mounts, some discontinued since years, some not, etc ...
I have really problems to understand what is wrong, and why you pick out Sinar?
In fact our line of products is pretty clearly defined: it goes from the cameras to the lens, with all necessary accessories and the backs fitting different needs.
I would understand to be criticized for not having a complete system, but here ...!
Please enlighten me!
Best regards,
Thierry
My belief comes from the fact that we have a new 65 camera where the back doesn't rotate and another 65 back which does rotate.
And a 75 with and without an LV option.
And a 75H multishot
And a 54
And the undoubted new models of 75 which will follow the new 65
And the undoubted to be announced larger sensor model.
And the fact that the new 65 is a different chip (Kodak) from the previous ones (Dalsa)
And the Sinar M camera and its lenses
And the Hy6
In the end it's just too much. It's called a bloated product line. It needs simplifying, for marketing reasons, and for production and maintenance reasons.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218435\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I would say much more: for the fun of the game I will count them, for Edmund, as soon as I have a bit more time.
Best regards,
Thierry
Wow, you think 4 backs is bloated? I'm happy that Sinar gives customers the choice of LV or the rotating adapter. If you are going to count different options as completely different backs, then doesn't Phase have something like 12-15 backs?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218447\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thanks gwhitf, for the best wishes.
We do not have to agree, of course. Be simply aware that I did disclose nothing which wasn't already sent out as a press release, officially. I won't be fired for this.
The prices are missing, yes, agreed. You seem to be infuriated and find it to be the worse of any possible misbeaviour or fault. So be it.
Apple gets the "bravos" for disclosing information by rumours which is still "secret"? I suppose the one(s) leaking the information have their clear agenda, and they certainly don't risk their job. If that is a honorable way to do for you, then I guess that I have something wrong in my mind and the way to see things.
I simply gather from this that one can put anyway one wants, there is always something to be blamed for, instead of concentrating on the positive side.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
Best wishes. You obviously have your own agenda, and outlook on how business should be done.
I'm also saying that, if an Apple employee came onto a discussion board like this, even in his personal time, and disclosed something three weeks in advance, with his corporate Signature at the bottom of his post, he'd probably be fired the next day. But again, this shows the marketing prowess (and related customer loyalty) of Apple Computer versus Sinar.
It's not about disclosing a secret in advance, it's about disclosing incomplete and confusing information to the customer. But we can agree to disagree. Good luck with your launch.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218404\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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James,
I almost fully agree with all you are writing here, and won't argue anything, except for the prices: what problem is there to wait 3 weeks to get it fully disclosed?
Can I have a break on this one?
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
OK, here's the thing I don't get about medium format. And this doesn't really apply to Sinar but all of the brands.
If you have a new back that hits all the points, high iso, great lcd, in camera processing, stable software . . . if it really does do all of this and the price is competitive then why not just wait until everything is in place and advertise the hell out of it?
If it's available, the supply and service network is in place and it does everything as advertised then it should sell like crazy, or at least what ever "sell like crazy" is in the medium format world.
It's not like your going to loose a sale to the new 65mpx phase, the 50mpx Hasselblad or the rotating sensor Leaf. I doubt if their stuff will be ready to buy at Photokina anyway.
The thing is and once again this goes for all medium format cameras, there is not one single new product that has been announced in the last few weeks that you can walk in and buy. Even the previous products do not have everything in place. Maybe lenses, maybe software, maybe tilt shift gizmos, maybe viewfinders but none of even the past generation of product has everything
ready to use and of course now we have new product being introduced because it's a trade show year.
Now this may seem like a novel thought, but I don't really think the manufacturers are seeing this from the buyers standpoint.
I've owned five medium format backs from two companies. Not one had everything ready to roll when it was delivered. They were close, they worked, but going back and reading the original pdf and then putting them in use, there was some element that wasn't exactly there.
To make it even more frustrating, just about the time everything was "almost" in place . . . software, wi-fi, software, (did I say software), the respective companies introduced new product.
So if this is an investment, rather than a purchase (I'm not sure if I understand the difference), I want all the facts I can get on the investment and anything out of place makes me think twice, maybe three times if this is a good investment.
The thing is, there is no reason to do it this way and put doubt in the customer's mind. Just wait until it's really ready or better yet, wait until I can buy it.
The no Contax or RZ mount really puzzles me. Not because I own a Contax it would puzzle me if I had a closet full of hy6's.
There are about 2 billion guys shooting in New York with film in RZ's and Contax. They only go to digital when a client "requests" it and then usually just rent the whole package from a tech company and that is usually either a Phase or Leaf mounted on an H series blad.
Think about that market that probably would be the perfect customer to sell a back with a 3" good lcd polaroid, in camera processing and hopefully easy to use software.
With interchangable mounts that would be perfect market to first sell them a back, then ease them into a new camera system, as they would know they have their trusty ol' RZ or contax for backup or just on the days they want to shoot digital with a RZ or contax.
Now take the guys that own phase or leaf and have them mounted on an RZ or contax. If the new Sinar can go onto that camera that takes a lot of sting out of the investment to just buy a new back, rather than firesale the back and the camera to make the move to the Sinar.
Even if they just went straight to the HY6 and never used thier RZ again, knowing it was possible makes the "investment" a little easier to talk yourself into.
Kind of like a trunk on a Porsche. You may not use it, but you can always tell your spouse it's still a good car for that weekend trip.
None of this makes any sense to me, especially since everyone connected to medium format keeps saying there is no money in cameras, just in digital backs.
If this is so, then why ever limit any digital back sales?
I personally think you have a winner on your hands with the new Sinar, but I also think that a winner shouldn't hobble themselves with any kind of doubt or any limitations.
One thing is for certain. All medium format has the semi same business model and loves to announce everything in segments. Just because it's always been done that way doesn't mean that the customer would not like to see a change.
In fact, since all of medium format seems to go through the same process, imagine how far ahead a company would be if they broke from this system.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218410\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I simply gather from this that one can put anyway one wants, there is always something to be blamed for, instead of concentrating on the positive side.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218477\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry, it's not about blame -- it's what James Russell is talking about -- it's about changing the game.
It's about thinking how the customer will receive your information, and about presenting it in the most efficient, digestible manner possible.
Would be like you walking into a fancy restaurant, sitting down, and being handed a menu by the waiter. The descriptions are there, the names are there, but the prices are absent. Would this not cause you slight confusion? It might not matter if it was McDonald's, but when there are lots of zeros behind the comma, price should be right in there -- a complete package for the "investing" customer.
Like the old saying, "You've just got one chance to make a first impression". You had your chance, and the first impression that you left was "incomplete". Again, the customer is trying to sort and file all these model numbers of all these different brands, and keep them all straight. I'd love to start a Google Document, and list every brand and every variation; it might be much more clear how the "investing" public sees the confusion.
As James says, you have the power to be a leader, and not a leaker, and be the exception to the rule, (as does Phase, Leaf, and Hasselblad). Who will do it, if anyone?
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James,
I almost fully agree with all you are writing here, and won't argue anything, except for the prices: what problem is there to wait 3 weeks to get it fully disclosed?
Can I have a break on this one?
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218482\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Theirry,
You can take all the time you want. It's your company.
I am postive your a really nice guy, but sometimes I think there is some kind of language barrier between the French brain and the Texan brain. (Then again my best friend is a Parisian and we understand each other very well).
Still, step out from behind the camera makers desk and step into the working on the street photographer's world.
Next week you begin three projects. One in studio, one on location and one in three countries in Asia.
All require a different look, almost different equipment and you say to yourself, I'm tired of shooting these little Canons and renting an H-1. I think I'll buy medium format and yea, that new Sinar looks good.
Let me see, how much is going to cost me for a body, a back and 5 lenses? Hmm, I gotta wait three weeks to find out the price . . . I wonder how long before I can get the camera?
I think all of these companies are so concerned about one upping the next guy, they forget that our clients don't really care if we are waiting for a camera.
In fact if you told a client you had to put your project off to wait for a camera, lenses and finder they would laugh . . . actually they wouldn't laugh, they'd just go to the next estimate.
It's not that the omission of the price is a big deal, it's just that medium format has developed (to put it kindly) their own form of a credibility gap. I could list everything from all the makers and there really is no point because most of us have hashed and rehashed this 100 times.
Knowing this I would think that credibility would be the first item on the list.
In my world I have to hit 100% on about 24 items to win a project. I only have to miss one small point to lose one.
Since I work in this atmosphere, and I assume most photographers do the same, everybody I write a check to has to do the same, or I go on down the road unti I find someone that does.
JR
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James,
I almost fully agree with all you are writing here, and won't argue anything, except for the prices: what problem is there to wait 3 weeks to get it fully disclosed?
Can I have a break on this one?
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218482\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's pretty clear that Hasselblad has stepped out of the MF cartel now. The H3DII can be priced, delivered, and is *affordable*.
In fact, I wonder if James has noticed that from the business point of view Hassy meets all his criteria ?
-Available for delivery as soon as announced
- Wide dealer network
- Sold in every market
- Can be rented pretty much everywhere
Edmund
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Edmund,
If you continue, I cancel the beer I owe/promised you at Photokina!
Thierry
PS: why insisting all the time? Would you please bother a bit more about what others do wrong?
The Hy6-65 shall be priced at the opening of Photokina and will be available for delivery at Photokina, period. And I won't speculate on being affordable or not: if you do use judgement, then you can may be conclude that the price range will be around what is proposed in the market. Is that so difficult to understand?
Does this mean the meeting with Phase and Leaf where you agree to match prices hasn't happened yet ? It's pretty clear that Hasselblad has stepped out of this cartel now. The H3DII can be priced, delivered, and is *affordable*.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218497\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thanks for your patience!
Yes, I do understand, except that we are far from having the situation of being in a restaurant: you can't order it today, we have SIMPLY informed which way it is going, period.
Some (most) understand it this way, some take it to make a killer argument (in the negative way).
It is starting to head nowhere, this discussion, and I won't say anymore on this topic.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Thierry, it's not about blame -- it's what James Russell is talking about -- it's about changing the game.
It's about thinking how the customer will receive your information, and about presenting it in the most efficient, digestible manner possible.
Would be like you walking into a fancy restaurant, sitting down, and being handed a menu by the waiter. The descriptions are there, the names are there, but the prices are absent. Would this not cause you slight confusion? It might not matter if it was McDonald's, but when there are lots of zeros behind the comma, price should be right in there -- a complete package for the "investing" customer.
Like the old saying, "You've just got one chance to make a first impression". You had your chance, and the first impression that you left was "incomplete". Again, the customer is trying to sort and file all these model numbers of all these different brands, and keep them all straight. I'd love to start a Google Document, and list every brand and every variation; it might be much more clear how the "investing" public sees the confusion.
As James says, you have the power to be a leader, and not a leaker, and be the exception to the rule, (as does Phase, Leaf, and Hasselblad). Who will do it, if anyone?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218486\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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James,
French: be aware, I am more Swiss, in my mentality, then French! Then, if you know French(wo)men, you would know that a Parisian mentality is as far away from my region's mentality, than yours from Washington DC's. But I can tell you something for sure: I am as stubborn as a Texan (aries).
FYI: I am almost daily with photographers, hanging around in studios. But then, not in the USA, and you seem to take the US as the center of the world. There are other markets, James. The US IS important, so are other countries.
Now, if "our"/"my" credibility is put in jeopardy because of prices which will be available in 3 weeks, then it does. From what I hear around me, it is not the case.
Best regards,
Thierry
PS: I do have to add that I do not take it as seriously as you might take it, the above!
Theirry,
It's your company.
I am postive your a really nice guy, but sometimes I think there is some kind of language barrier between the French brain and the Texan brain. (Then again my best friend is a Parisian and we understand each other very well).
Still, step out from behind the camera makers desk and step into the working on the street photographer's world.
Next week you begin three projects. One in studio, one on location and one in three countries in Asia.
All require a different look, almost different equipment and you say to yourself, I'm tired of shooting these little Canons and renting an H-1. I think I'll buy medium format and yea, that new Sinar looks good.
Let me see, how much is going to cost me for a body, a back and 5 lenses? Hmm, I gotta wait three weeks to find out the price . . . I wonder how long before I can get the camera?
I think all of these companies are so concerned about one upping the next guy, they forget that our clients don't really care if we are waiting for a camera.
In fact if you told a client you had to put your project off to wait for a camera, lenses and finder they would laugh . . . actually they wouldn't laugh, they'd just go to the next estimate.
It's not that the omission of the price is a big deal, it's just that medium format has developed (to put it kindly) their own form of a credibility gap. I could list everything from all the makers and there really is no point because most of us have hashed and rehashed this 100 times.
Knowing this I would think that credibility would be the first item on the list.
In my world I have to hit 100% on about 24 items to win a project. I only have to miss one small point to lose one.
Since I work in this atmosphere, and I assume most photographers do the same, everybody I write a check to has to do the same, or I go on down the road unti I find someone that does.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218493\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I don't see the sense in all this.
I'm glad to know the 65 is on the way even if I don't know the price. I'd like to know the price. If Sinar knows what the price is, they're silly not to say, but I doubt they're fully decided. Saying the price will be about this much won't appease people here either. I think I have a pretty good idea what the price will be.
Leica has been greatly criticized for not telling what their future plans are even if incomplete. I'm not sure a small company can win in the PR game.
Yes it'd be great if all these small company with hugely expensive products could act more like big volume companies (in some ways but not in others), and I hope they move in that direction. In the meantime I'm glad to hear about the 65 even without the price. It informs my decisions right now about what to buy and what not to buy.
Best,
Mitchell
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Maybe I'm nuts but I like roadmaps and stuff being announced before delivery. I like to know what is ahead than sit and wait for it but that's me. Let's just take Leica as a example, we will have to wait till Sept. 21st two days before the opening of Photokinia to announce something and it still won't be ready and not have a price, that is not helping me at all. So let's face some facts we are not complete idiots not to know the Sinar 65 will be the same or above the current Hassy 31 or Phase P30 plus if they are pretty much the same offerings , yes there are some differences and such but if it is below 17k than I will eat my shorts. I know full well it is not, so waiting for the price is not something I am worrying about but more on what it will do for me. We also all know final firmware upon ship date will be different than it is today. It ALWAYS is with any digital camera. Come on guy's and girls how much of a rookie are you about this stuff. We all know we are not going to buy it until someday shoots a damn image from the sucker and show us what it is made of and final specs are in the camera. Again maybe i'm nuts but these announcements i want to know about. I need to plan ahead and make smart decisions on spending 20k plus so i would not be running out to buy this the first day anyway. It is being shown in Germany in 3 weeks and after that we will have a better answer from Sinar, from Phase, from Hassy and every other OEM out there. That is what this show is for to announce new stuff. None of it will be ready to buy that day anyway. What is wrong with announcing it today and giving you some idea what it maybe all about. Sorry guy's not in a great mood and all i see is some whining going on. None of this affects your bottom line until you decide to actually buy it than it counts until than who gives a crap, it is just normal marketing.
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you seem to take the US as the center of the world. There are other markets, James.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218501\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Theirry,
If this helps, I work everywhere. Asia, Europe, South America and the good ol' U.S. of A and I can tell you one thing I know.
It's all the same.
Every market, every photograher complains about fees, tighter budgets, shorter dealines, more effort on their part. Every talent agent wants more money for their models, every assistant is just scared to death that the photographer is going to skip town before paying them, every hotel has crappy internet for large uploads, every assistant stylist wants to put my photos on their website even if all they did was get the bagels.
Every market, every client asks the same, more content, better production, more effort.
I really don't believe in borders, physical or mental and think 90% of what everybody tells me is different is just because they haven't worked everywhere.
It rains on production in Miami just like it does in Paris. The studios in Tokyo charge too much to rent a 12' rag just like they do in Dallas. Parking in NY, LA, Chicago, San Francisco, Paris, London, (especially London), Tokyo, Hong Kong is absurd and every hotel charges $6 minimum for a bottle of plastic water. Even in Kansas City.
It's all the same man.
JR
P.S. Once again, it ain't about price, or what the price is going to be. It's about being the company that is transparent and delivers. Some of the responses here are not from arm chair photographers that "might" buy someday. They come from people that will buy if the product is right, the price is competitive and the company delivers on time.
Mostly delivers.
To put this into total perspective. Today it's Sunday in NY. I can make a list of everything I use on set, lights, grip, camera supports, computers, carts, drives and software. I can e-mail that list out to two suppliers and except for medium format cameras, by early Monday morning I can have an exact price of what everything costs and exact delivery usually within a day.
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Edmund,
If you continue, I cancel the beer I owe/promised you at Photokina!
Thierry
If it's Photokina, let's organize a dinner for us MF folks.
Edmund
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I would love, but usually am pretty busy with my evenings, to recover from the visitors like you.
Lets' see.
Thierry
If it's Photokina, let's organize a dinner for us MF folks.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218515\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Theirry,
Every market, every photograher complains about fees, tighter budgets, shorter dealines, more effort on their part. Every talent agent wants more money for their models, every assistant is just scared to death that the photographer is going to skip town before paying them, every hotel has crappy internet for large uploads, every assistant stylist wants to put my photos on their website even if all they did was get the bagels.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218507\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Please James, stop! You're starting to sound like a diva.
The most interesting thing about these kind of threads is that most of the people complaining aren't even thinking about buying anything. So what's the point?
Really boring...
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Well, I guess we could ask Yair to replace you -
Edmund
I would love, but usually am pretty busy with my evenings, to recover from the visitors like you.
Lets' see.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218519\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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James,
send me a list with the Sinar products in our catalog and which are of interest for you: I shall answer you until Monday morning (it is actually Monday, Sep 01st, 01.00 am here in BKK). Though, delivery will not be within a day.
Best regards,
Thierry
I can e-mail that list out to two suppliers and except for medium format cameras, by early Monday morning I can have an exact price of what everything costs and exact delivery usually within a day.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218507\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Has anyone here compared the standard (80) lens of the Sinar to the Phase and Hassy versions ?
Edmund
James,
send me a list with the Sinar products in our catalog and which are of interest for you: I shall answer you until Monday morning (it is actually Monday, Sep 01st, 01.00 am here in BKK). Though, delivery will not be within a day.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218530\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thiery, look on the positive side. If the only thing this tough crowd can find to complain about is wating 3 weeks for a price, then Sinar has done a great job
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It's pretty clear that Hasselblad has stepped out of the MF cartel now. The H3DII can be priced, delivered, and is *affordable*.
In fact, I wonder if James has noticed that from the business point of view Hassy meets all his criteria ?
-Available for delivery as soon as announced
- Wide dealer network
- Sold in every market
- Can be rented pretty much everywhere
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218497\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've noticed and though I haven't tried the new blad from what I've read and been told a few things give me pause.
1. It took them a long time to get to 800 iso on the 31mpx chip. 800 iso on the Phase version isn't over the moon great, so I wonder about the blad.
2. Software. It seems to require new video cards to function quickly. Does that work with I-macs and macbook pros, does it mean new computers . . . I don't know?
3. File format. I think when you shoot to cf cards it's a different format than when you tether and then to process in any third party software you have to convert to a dng. If that is so, then that is just another step nobody needs to mess with.
4. Mirror slap. Even though there is a software function to delay the mirror, it's still got a lot of slap.
The upside is the price is pretty good, the cameras are on the shelf and they have a 110mm F2.2.
Once again this is all second hand info as I haven't tried it.
JR
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The upside is the price is pretty good, the cameras are on the shelf and they have a 110mm F2.2.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218553\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sounds like you agree that they have some abilities which no one else has
Edmund
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Just a thought about the rz67 thing I think the back would work mounted to a leaf plate with a sync cable ( hassy v hassy h mam afd) Or work without sync cable in afd mount via the mamiya adapter on the rz67 "d" model.
Maybe this is why no rz67 plate from sinar? I could be wrong... Its a shame there won't be a contax or rollei 600x adapter as I like both of those cameras and might actually consider this back as a purchase for next year.
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Its a shame there won't be a contax or rollei 600x adapter[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218560\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Last week Phase One introduced lens correction for the Contax lenses in Capture One 4.1.2.
Well, just a very, very small detail. But it's always nice if someone says "hello". "Goodbye" is mostly sad...
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You are right, Graham, I almost forgot!
Thanks,
Thierry
Thiery, look on the positive side. If the only thing this tough crowd can find to complain about is wating 3 weeks for a price, then Sinar has done a great job
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218548\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Well said, Graham
Eduardo
You are right, Graham, I almost forgot!
Thanks,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218579\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The upside is the price is pretty good, the cameras are on the shelf and they have a 110mm F2.2.
Once again this is all second hand info as I haven't tried it.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218553\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James, did you think 100mm f2.2 or.... is Hasselblad talking about the new 110 f2.2?
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Thierry,
Considering this new back uses microlenses, how does it perform with tilt/shift? Is it the same chip as the Phase P30+, Aptus 65 and Hasselblad 31mpx back, or a newer generation? My dealer hinted the microlens problem may not be such an issue with this back (if I remember our conversation correctly).
Also, would shooting a 'user shading', or white reference file (or whatever it's called) with an opaque filter at the time of the capture not solve all the colour shifting, vignetting and aberration problems caused by microlenses?
Ben
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Considering this new back uses microlenses, how does it perform with tilt/shift? Is it the same chip as the Phase P30+, Aptus 65 and Hasselblad 31mpx back, or a newer generation?
Aptus 65 uses 28MP Dalsa sensor (no microlenses)
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Ah, yes, I forgot.
Ben
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On the ISO thing
Which is the one thing that could make me upgrade
Everyone knows that an 800 shot a 500th f11 on a sunny day looks pretty good with many devices
They way to convince me would be some hand held natural light portraiture indoors window lit only
The test..
Shoot it on a D3 (125th 50mm @ 2.0) and on the new Sinar (125 80mm @ 2.8 ) and post the files side by side
S
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Dear Ben
I kindly refer to my post N° 75 in this same thread: it answers exactly the same question by another member, concerning the tilt/swing and shift possibilities.
Using a "shading" to correct is certainly a solution which works: the question is how much can it take away (see also answer to above). Am not sure since I have not yet tried this.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
Considering this new back uses microlenses, how does it perform with tilt/shift? Is it the same chip as the Phase P30+, Aptus 65 and Hasselblad 31mpx back, or a newer generation? My dealer hinted the microlens problem may not be such an issue with this back (if I remember our conversation correctly).
Also, would shooting a 'user shading', or white reference file (or whatever it's called) with an opaque filter at the time of the capture not solve all the colour shifting, vignetting and aberration problems caused by microlenses?
Ben
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218637\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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- Active cooling: ventilator.
- Live Video
Thierry, will the live video performance improve due to the inclusion of a ventilator / fan ?
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- The adapters are the same as the ones used for the eMotion backs (eMotion 22, eMotion 54 LV and eMotion 75 / 75 LV).
Thierry,
Looking forward, I'd like to see an eSprit 75H multi-shot
where Sinar standardizes on this new casing, 3" LCD and eMotion-series adapter plates,
and adopts the capture speed and high-ISO performance of the eMotion75LV-II.
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Thierry, Love the screen choice and all of the upcoming improvements!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218449\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am glad you appreciate it.
Sinar is known for having the widest choice/range of Cameras.... I hope it stays that way!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218449\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There is no reason it will not.
However, there must be someone/few decision makers at the top... one that lacks the creative talent but lives with common sense and the other that lacks the common sense but lives with creative talent!!! Now, that would be a perfect score 10 if they would share each other's forte.... sadly in this case it seems like they are far from it although they do manage with your/others input!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218449\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why, if I may ask? Far from what?
I seriously think you/all/manufacturers should pay attention to what James/others are saying...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218449\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think we do pay attention, but there are many other considerations in the balance.
Thierry, I hope all of us are not blind to see your contribution/signature on the new DBs.... along that road via James/others plenty could be done so that Sinar/we finally have not a Horse for the race, rather Horse to Lead!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218449\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The proof is already there, that what was claimed so loud by some, that Sinar was not listening to the voices of the market, was "slightly" exaggerated. And I am not the one to take credit on this, but a whole team.
It's all about convenience.... So, unless Manufaturers/somebody/etc. is listening very closely
the fact remains and the gap will only be more apparent/stronger.... that ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME/PHASE!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218449\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Let's see what the future brings: a wheel always turns, what is one day can be challenged the next one. We all want to survive.
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hi Sam,
Long time not seen! Hope you're doing well.
On the ISO 800: you might want to have a look there:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683)
Shot with eMotion 75 LV
- Camera: Sinar Hy6
- Lens: Zeiss Planar 110mm/f2
- ISO 800
- Aperture: f5.6
- Exposure: 1/40
It's not an interior shot, portrait in front of a window, but it has at least a "bit" less light than your 1/500th at f11. It corresponds to your wished 125th at f2.8.
I can still find the original DNG.
Best regards,
Thierry
On the ISO thing
Which is the one thing that could make me upgrade
Everyone knows that an 800 shot a 500th f11 on a sunny day looks pretty good with many devices
They way to convince me would be some hand held natural light portraiture indoors window lit only
The test..
Shoot it on a D3 (125th 50mm @ 2.0) and on the new Sinar (125 80mm @ 2.8 ) and post the files side by side
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218658\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Billy, that is one point I wish to see with my eyes, before commenting. I can't say for the moment what/if the fan could possibly influence positively the live video.
More at Photokina.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry, will the live video performance improve due to the inclusion of a ventilator / fan ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218675\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Billy,
your wishes/ideas have been forwarded already.
Keeping in mind that a multishot for location work (with display) adds to the costs.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
Looking forward, I'd like to see an eSprit 75H multi-shot
where Sinar standardizes on this new casing, 3" LCD and eMotion-series adapter plates,
and adopts the capture speed and high-ISO performance of the eMotion75LV-II.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218680\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
Thank you very much for thowing yourself to the wolves here on LL with new Leaf product information.
It has required a lot of time and effort on your part, as well as a great amount of patience, when stirring up this bee hive with new food for thought, to provide calm after the storm.
My question is hopefully a simple old one that will continue to be asked everytime new a MFDB is introduced by any manufacturer not just Sinar:
For all of us architectural/landscape photographers, what is the longest exposure time offered with this new MFDB sensor model? And are the resultant images noise free enough to match up with the competition, such as Phase One's Expose+ in you opinion.
Again, Thank you Thierry for all the product info you are able (or allowed by your company) to provide to us.
Best wishes for a great Photokina show. I would dearly love to attend one of these exhibitions; especially this one.
Joe Bossuyt
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Why, if I may ask? Far from what?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218698\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Obviously, far from thinking ahead of us photographers... hehehehe
I think we do pay attention, but there are many other considerations in the balance.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218698\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That will play a huge difference when time comes to invest/switch!!!
The proof is already there, that what was claimed so loud by some, that Sinar was not listening to the voices of the market, was "slightly" exaggerated. And I am not the one to take credit on this, but a whole team.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218698\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Perhaps, but the fact remains majority/WORLD KNOWS ABOUT Thierry and that's it... simple truth!!!
So, as far as I am concerned I give credit to you for SINAR and Yair for LEAF!!!
Now, you have whole Army of Phase Pros here to give credit to and elsewhere who will be more than happy to deliver and assist you... most of them will send you any piece of Phase equipment along with camera lenses on any corner of the World that you may happen to be... of course that's a good currency, no?
PS: I don't mean if you're stuck or you have problems... I mean they will send you where ever you happen to be so you can try/test/etc.
[span style=\'font-size:11pt;line-height:100%\']Thanks to PHASE folks... you guys now who you are[/span] !!!
Let's see what the future brings: a wheel always turns, what is one day can be challenged the next one.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218698\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Agreed
We all want to survive.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218698\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Being Aries... I couldn't possibly doubt your survival skils... since I myslef am Aries too
However, in todays world/business investing in company/etc. based on survival skills/mentality is not enough I'm a fraid!!!
Perhaps, you can rephrase since I feel that SINAR potentially has the WINNER with this one, if not Worldwide at least among this crowd, my self included!!!
PS: If I may suggest.... Why don't you/SINAR open up web Sales where one can put the list of equipment together, calculate everything on the spot and get a representative assigned to cantact/visit customers/us... by your self !!!!
That way it can be supervised and successfully organized from start to finish!!!
Just don't tell me you're busy please..... because it is worth a switch, especially with the new line of products
!!!I smell Success!!!
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OK, a question that seems simple but it's answer could preclude my considering the camera,or any camera for that matter.
I hike extensively with my camera/digital back.
Just spent the weekend "test driving" the Phase/Mamiya camera and found one simple issue that will preclude my purchase of it: The camera strap hooks REQUIRE that the camera be carried in a horizontal axis.
Well, that's just great. Put the 28mm lens on the front and a P45+ on the back of the camera. Now strap on a Think Tank Photo belt loaded with additional lenses and goodies. Now hike along at a quick pace and just ignore the fact that the P45+ screen is banging against the belt, etc. Now couple that with the fact that I hike with the camera and back in the ON state and just image what the buttons on the back of the Phase back have reset the various variables to. Add to this the fact that the face of the lens is looking forward so any tree branches or bushes can have their day with the front glass element - and yes, I know, I could put the lens cover on it BUT it will fall off in the brush OR I'll miss that once in a life time shot because the cover was on.
I'd like to know who the mental midget was that designed that feature.
Thus, does the Sinar or the Hy6 suffer from the same attribute?
Jack
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Billy,
your wishes/ideas have been forwarded already.
Keeping in mind that a multishot for location work (with display) adds to the costs.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218702\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Now, does that mean you are thinking about multishot on location without being tethered to an external computer?? Having the multishot done completely by the back?
That would be really interesting. The only other multishot solutions do have a screen but multishot needs to be done tethered. Not having to slap around the laptop would be a really nice addition.
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Just spent the weekend "test driving" the Phase/Mamiya camera and found one simple issue that will preclude my purchase of it: The camera strap hooks REQUIRE that the camera be carried in a horizontal axis.
Lust4Life,
Is there a film camera that fits your criteria?
The only one that comes to mind is a Pentax 67 with its lugs.
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Can I ask why Sinar is going back to Kodak, and to a lower pixel-count sensor that seems to be the new budget-model with Phase and Hasselblad? This back must be priced below 10.000 euros?
Henrik
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Spent a few days with the Hy6 75LV. Loved it but decided it was too much money for me.
Thinking seriously of the Hy6-65, but it occurs to me that even though the Hy6 s65r will be more expensive it might be the better investment because it works with other cameras. If one wants to sell the Hy6-65 back, but keep the the Hy6 camera, the only market you have is Hy6 camera owners who lack a back. Not a large group. Does this make sense?
Thanks,
Mitchell
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Spent a few days with the Hy6 75LV. Loved it but decided it was too much money for me.
Thinking seriously of the Hy6-65, but it occurs to me that even though the Hy6 s65r will be more expensive it might be the better investment because it works with other cameras. If one wants to sell the Hy6-65 back, but keep the the Hy6 camera, the only market you have is Hy6 camera owners who lack a back. Not a large group. Does this make sense?
Thanks,
Mitchell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
es, you are right, and also the one with the rotating back makes a lot of sense for use and orientation purposes.
Two other thoughts:
1) until we see these and see how they price out, it is hard to chose. It may be that the non-rotating back is quite a bit cheaper and thus attractive from another perspective.
2) gee guys, we're pretty hard on Thierry. Lets give him a break for being willing to post and participate, and patiently answer most things that come across his bow.
While I for one appreciate JR's posts, perhaps he is raising issues that aren't handled at the sales level, but rather at management level? He may be correct, and I do agree with him, but for now, its fun watching the competitiveness amongst the MFDB makers and watching features improve and prices drop.
Best,
Geoff
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Lust4Life,
Is there a film camera that fits your criteria?
The only one that comes to mind is a Pentax 67 with its lugs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218769\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The cameras I've had in the past all had lugs that allowed you to carry the camera/lens/back in a vertical posture; Hasselblad 500C, 503CW, H1 and the H2.
Got pissed at Hassie when they closed their system and have dumped all of the Hassie gear.
Searching for the best solution, and must admit to still having my money in the bank as no one product has hit me right.
Jack
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Spent a few days with the Hy6 75LV. Loved it but decided it was too much money for me.
Thinking seriously of the Hy6-65, but it occurs to me that even though the Hy6 s65r will be more expensive it might be the better investment because it works with other cameras. If one wants to sell the Hy6-65 back, but keep the the Hy6 camera, the only market you have is Hy6 camera owners who lack a back. Not a large group. Does this make sense?
Thanks,
Mitchell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In a sense that would be correct. If you bought the package together than you are stuck with selling that back to a Sinar user only. But if you bought the s65r than the buyer could change it out. To me this maybe a better option but only if you plan on selling it in a year or so. But buying separate camera and body we can bet for sure it would be more expensive than buying the package of camera and body.
This does make you think before you buy on what your future plans maybe. it also depends very much on how they price this out. Let me play the devil here and give you the scenario on what is going on today. Hassy 31 17 k for body and back , Phase P30 plus figure just a touch more about 18k so basically they are throwing in the body in the deal. Question of the day is this will Sinar be throwing in a body in the deal. Now granted the Sinar has a couple extra features like the 3 inch LCD and some firmware that will do DNG and Jpegs and can't remember the rest but those two maybe the most significant between them. Now the 64 thousand dollar question is Sinar going to try and match that price range. Frankly i don't think they can, now i am completely guessing and we will know for sure at Photokinia but my bet is not a chance it will be close more like 22k. That is a guess and a opinion so don't hold me to it. But doing my research when i bought my Phase back a few months ago, i could not afford Sinar at the time, just that simple. Will it be like that in three weeks only time will tell. No offense Theirry but I don't have hopes up for it to be within a very close range of the others, more for the extra features given but still a distance away in my book. Now i am thinking like the end user not the sales reps or the marketing guys.Us end users go by logic and what we see the market as or better yet what we are willing to pay for features and function. You have to decide what Sinar is releasing is significant enough over the others to justify the costs and of course this works the other way around also. Some of us will pay dearly for a 3 inch LCD , myself i will not. Just as a example there.
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perhaps he is raising issues that aren't handled at the sales level, but rather at management level? He may be correct, and I do agree with him, but for now, its fun watching the competitiveness amongst the MFDB makers and watching features improve and prices drop.
Best,
Geoff
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218792\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I hope this doesn't come across as being hard on Theirry or any rep, though I do hope that Theirry and Yair are here to field the hard questions.
Obviously there are the only two sets of eyes and ears to the manufacturers here, Theirry and Yair so let's hope that what we spend our time writing goes somewhere other than googleland.
That said, there is a lot of reasons to buy any camera and obviously we all have different styles, workflow and expectations, including costs.
As far as costs, I don't know the exact numbers but I assume that any back on an HY6 or AFI won't be rock bottom priced. The camera and lenses are just more expensive, given their origins.
The new Sinar back, I don't know about, as Theirry said, wait 3 weeks.
But, back to the camera, I can accept an expensive camera and lens set if its well made and is a long term purchase. If it's not so well made or will be an interim camera, then price is more of a consideration.
If price really is the issue, then I suggest either a contax, an RZ as both of those systems are rock bottom in price. For example a lightly used P30+ and a contax with a standard lens can probably be bought for 14,000 U.S. probably less if you look around and the lens package for that camera is fairly inexpensive, almost to Canon territory.
Still, since I'm hoping that we have someone's ear I'd like to see a few things on all the new digital backs.
(Yes I'm a list guy)
1. An lcd that is not only detailed but works when tethered. Also an LCD that you can adjust color and contrast to match the computer a little closer and a black and white function for those days you shoot black and white.
2. A DNG file or an open source file that is read properly in all the raw convertors. It's sometimes a pleasent surprise to throw a file in a 3rd party converter and see the look, but usually it's just not what you invisioned so your back to roll your own presets. I suggest everyone send Thomas Knoll a fruit basket (same with the C-1 people) and say please, please, please let the software read all of the preset information in a file.
3. Software that allows you to set color and look in the computer and the camera. Same with naming. Whatever naming convention you use tethered should continue on untethered, unless you want to change it.
4. Stability. Period. The most important of all of the features.
5. Don't forget that clean nice 800 iso (minimum).
JR
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I would like to add to your list, Mr. Russel:
1. Iso 50 for those sunny days using flash
2. 1 fps minimum with 2 being perfect
martin.
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hi Joe
Thierry,
Thank you very much for thowing yourself to the wolves here on LL with new Leaf product information.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218713\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There must be a misspelling here: I am from Sinar and representing only the Sinar brand.
For all of us architectural/landscape photographers, what is the longest exposure time offered with this new MFDB sensor model? And are the resultant images noise free enough to match up with the competition, such as Phase One's Expose+ in you opinion.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218713\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You can go up to 30 sec. exposure and that has proven enough for architectural work. The files are NEVER noise-free, when using long exposures. How much noise depends on the ambient temperature, the cooler the less noise, the hotter the more.
Our RAW files are not filtered, but a "Noise Filter" can be applied at wish to the files, with the Sinar Hy6 - 65: see my post N° 38.
See also some night images taken by architecture photographer Rainer Viertlböck, with long exposures and under ambient temperatures of 35°C +: this gives you an idea of what can be done and the level of noise (none).
www.tangential.de
Again, Thank you Thierry for all the product info you are able (or allowed by your company) to provide to us.
Best wishes for a great Photokina show. I would dearly love to attend one of these exhibitions; especially this one.
Joe Bossuyt
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218713\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks and you are welcome,
Thierry
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hi Dustback,
No, I am not saying this, but all options are open. We are looking into the next generation of MS, so it's worth to discuss all possibilities, keeping in mind the costs.
Best regards,
Thierry
Now, does that mean you are thinking about multishot on location without being tethered to an external computer?? Having the multishot done completely by the back?
That would be really interesting. The only other multishot solutions do have a screen but multishot needs to be done tethered. Not having to slap around the laptop would be a really nice addition.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218746\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I read always people saying "going to" , "switching to", "going back to": there is nothing such.
Best regards,
Thierry
Can I ask why Sinar is going back to Kodak?
Henrik
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218770\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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hi Jack,
this is something I did not really pay attention, when I had the straps on it, I rarely need them. However, if I remember it right, the camera hangs lens-down on the shoulder, but not sure anymore.
I guess some users might jump in here to give their experience.
Best regards,
Thierry
OK, a question that seems simple but it's answer could preclude my considering the camera,or any camera for that matter.
I hike extensively with my camera/digital back.
Just spent the weekend "test driving" the Phase/Mamiya camera and found one simple issue that will preclude my purchase of it: The camera strap hooks REQUIRE that the camera be carried in a horizontal axis.
Well, that's just great. Put the 28mm lens on the front and a P45+ on the back of the camera. Now strap on a Think Tank Photo belt loaded with additional lenses and goodies. Now hike along at a quick pace and just ignore the fact that the P45+ screen is banging against the belt, etc. Now couple that with the fact that I hike with the camera and back in the ON state and just image what the buttons on the back of the Phase back have reset the various variables to. Add to this the fact that the face of the lens is looking forward so any tree branches or bushes can have their day with the front glass element - and yes, I know, I could put the lens cover on it BUT it will fall off in the brush OR I'll miss that once in a life time shot because the cover was on.
I'd like to know who the mental midget was that designed that feature.
Thus, does the Sinar or the Hy6 suffer from the same attribute?
Jack
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218742\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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hi Mitchell,
yes, this makes sense, if you plan to use the back on an other platform.
Best regards,
Thierry
Spent a few days with the Hy6 75LV. Loved it but decided it was too much money for me.
Thinking seriously of the Hy6-65, but it occurs to me that even though the Hy6 s65r will be more expensive it might be the better investment because it works with other cameras. If one wants to sell the Hy6-65 back, but keep the the Hy6 camera, the only market you have is Hy6 camera owners who lack a back. Not a large group. Does this make sense?
Thanks,
Mitchell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Obviously, far from thinking ahead of us photographers... hehehehe
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I do dare to think the contrary.
Perhaps, but the fact remains majority/WORLD KNOWS ABOUT Thierry and that's it... simple truth!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The internet and the forum world are an important player, but it's not the whole world, by far not. I can assure you that some other people from Sinar are well known and deserve credit.
Now, you have whole Army of Phase Pros here..., .... most of them will send you any piece of Phase equipment along with camera lenses on any corner of the World that you may happen to be... of course that's a good currency, no?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would not swap for any money of the world!
PS: I don't mean if you're stuck or you have problems... I mean they will send you where ever you happen to be so you can try/test/etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ah, that sounds better.
However, in todays world/business investing in company/etc. based on survival skills/mentality is not enough I'm a fraid!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Business survival, Natasa.
Perhaps, you can rephrase since I feel that SINAR potentially has the WINNER with this one, if not Worldwide at least among this crowd, my self included!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You said it!
PS: If I may suggest.... Why don't you/SINAR open up web Sales where one can put the list of equipment together, calculate everything on the spot and get a representative assigned to cantact/visit customers/us... by your self !!!!
That way it can be supervised and successfully organized from start to finish!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Worth some thoughts, agreed
Just don't tell me you're busy please..... because it is worth a switch, especially with the new line of products
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am busy!
!!!I smell Success!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
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Hi Guy,
just some corrections:
- it seemed to me that the Hasselblad 31 MPx was US$ 18k, not 17
- P30+ w/ 1 year Classic Warranty = $19,990.00 (Chris Lawery, Capture Integration, Aug 10th ---> here: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....62&hl=p30\ (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=27162&hl=p30\)
Remark: Sinar has a standard 3-year warranty for all its products.
Add this value to the price and you will get a closer/fairer comparison, when the "Sinar Hy6 - 65" prices are known.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Hassy 31 17 k for body and back , Phase P30 plus figure just a touch more about 18k ...
... but my bet is not a chance it will be close more like 22k. That is a guess and a opinion so don't hold me to it. But doing my research when i bought my Phase back a few months ago, i could not afford Sinar at the time, just that simple. Will it be like that in three weeks only time will tell. No offense Theirry but I don't have hopes up for it to be within a very close range of the others, more for the extra features given but still a distance away in my book. Now i am thinking like the end user not the sales reps or the marketing guys.Us end users go by logic and what we see the market as or better yet what we are willing to pay for features and function. You have to decide what Sinar is releasing is significant enough over the others to justify the costs and of course this works the other way around also. Some of us will pay dearly for a 3 inch LCD , myself i will not. Just as a example there.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218801\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
I'm sure you're a nice guy, but to just give you some feedback from a potential customer: Why would you come to the town square, like a Town Crier, and yell out all this information, but not have a price for it? You guys wonder why we accuse you MF reps of being used-car salesmen, and this is one reason. It just feels like bait-and-switch, or in the least, "get the customer hyped up", instead of one man looking into another man's eyes, and saying "here is my product; these are the details; this is the price", like a respectable man would.
This camera system does indeed sound interesting, and it does sound like Sinar has listened and responded, but seriously, to do business this way is infuriating.
Would be like someone strolling down the streets of Amsterdam one lovely night, and the girl in the window says, "this is my product", and the customer says "How much?", and the girl says "Uh, I'm not sure, call me next week".
Trust me, it's as basic as that.
This is business, not personal. But if you want to know what's behind some of the resentment toward most anything MediumFormat, it's practices like not having your act together when you come to market.
Would Apple Computer announce a product without all the details? No way in hell. You want Apple loyalty?; then treat customers like grown-ups. I know you're excited, but you have to know the effect of half-disclosure.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218275\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It really isn't this bad and i'm sure Thierry is just doing his Job. Can you imaging going out and investing in Hasselblad or Phase with their new 50 and 60mp backs and then Sinar comes strolling in AFTER Photokino with this wonderful system. Then the replies on LL would be different, something like," why did you wait so long to tell us about this". I am more than gratefull that thierry has announced it because it makes the market fair and gives everyone a chance to decide by using pros and cons between all Backs.
Just on the note about Apple not releasing info before the price, well, Im sorry to tell you that is a misconception. In my country thier are nice big posters in our shop windows telling us about the Iphone 3G that will be coming soon. We have no price yet and have been waiting for about 6 months already. This is frustrating. We will know the price of a Sinar before the I phone. Thats funny!!!
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Exact Thierry,
the H3DII 31 is actually proposed at $ 17,995...with HVD viewfinder and HC80mm lens.
For my part,
- I hope to see a Sinar product range declined around this Hy6 markII : e54r, e65r, e75r...
- and I am curious to see if this Kodak sensor on a Sinar Back (soft) will offer the same "film like" rendering than others Leaf or Sinar digital back equipped with Dalsa sensor.
Regards,
François
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s54r, s65r, s75r...
Which one will be the Sinar entry level ($) with a big 36x48mm chip ?
(difficult to order a e54R when you take a look at the characteristics of the new eSprit).
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I do dare to think the contrary.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218862\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why didn't I think of that........ hehehehehe
The internet and the forum world are an important player, but it's not the whole world, by far not.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218862\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I respectfully desagree, since internet/communication field is only grwoing.... anyways, I was referring to the photography World!!!
I can assure you that some other people from Sinar are well known and deserve credit.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218862\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why not, it doesn't hurt to name a few....
I would not swap for any money of the world!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218862\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Fair enough
Business survival, Natasa.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218862\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
that is what i thought.... human mind drives business!
You said it!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218862\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
of course... and I stand by it
I am busy!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218862\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
LOL
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218862\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Last year if you remember I wanted to buy Hy6 and it didn't happen.... hopefully this time around it will be easier... I would appreciate if you could PM as soon as you can deliver one.... I can travel and pick it up in Europe if I have to... Thailand included but let's not be mute this time around about it
You can PM if it's easier!
Thanks and regards
-
For my part,
- I hope to see a Sinar product range declined around this Hy6 markII : e54r, e65r, e75r...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218873\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is exactly what is available, François!:
- Sinar Hy6 - 54r (Live Video) or w/o revolving adapter (Sinar Hy6 - 54)
- Sinar Hy6 - 65r (Live Video) or w/o revolving adapter (Sinar Hy6 - 65)
- Sinar Hy6 - 75r (Live Video) or w/o revolving adapter (Sinar Hy6 - 75)
- and I am curious to see if this Kodak sensor on a Sinar Back (soft) will offer the same "film like" rendering than others Leaf or Sinar digital back equipped with Dalsa sensor.
Regards,
François
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218873\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's not so much a sensor issue as profiling. We have had the best skin tones with the Sinarback 54 series (Kodak 22 MPx): just do/use the right profile.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Hi Guy,
just some corrections:
Remark: Sinar has a standard 3-year warranty for all its products.
Add this value to the price and you will get a closer/fairer comparison, when the "Sinar Hy6 - 65" prices are known.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218864\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Does the Sinar 3-year warranty include the guaranty of a loaner unit within 24 hours if your camera/back needs service? (Does it say anywhere or is that info in the same category as the price of the camera?) If not, it is misleading to compare it to the Phase or Hasselblad 3-year warranties, which do provide that level of service for the extra money. For most of us, having a MFDB and camera as a backup is not realistic at today's prices, and a "hot swap" warranty is highly desirable or even essential.
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Entry level will be the 22 MPx, logically.
Best regards,
Thierry
s54r, s65r, s75r...
Which one will be the Sinar entry level ($) with a big 36x48mm chip ?
(difficult to order a e54R when you take a look at the characteristics of the new eSprit).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218880\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I respectfully desagree, since internet/communication field is only grwoing.... anyways, I was referring to the photography World!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218881\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Me too, Natasa.
Last year if you remember I wanted to buy Hy6 and it didn't happen.... hopefully this time around it will be easier... I would appreciate if you could PM as soon as you can deliver one.... I can travel and pick it up in Europe if I have to... Thailand included but let's not be mute this time around about it
You can PM if it's easier!
Thanks and regards
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218881\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I honestly don't remember. FYI: the Sinar Hy6 IS available, since begin of the year, from Sinar or from our distributors.
Thierry
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Dear hcubell,
No, it doesn't include it, as I have already said this a few months ago. It is a warranty which covers malfunction and defective parts.
BUT:
- it does include servicing and repair for 3 years after purchase.
- usually we (our distributors) are flexible enough to provide the customer with a loaner within 24 hours. This has to be discussed with the distributor. There is always a solution and I guess some here can intervene to support my claim.
Best regards,
Thierry
Does the Sinar 3-year warranty include the guaranty of a loaner unit within 24 hours if your camera/back needs service?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218895\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I honestly don't remember. FYI: the Sinar Hy6 IS available, since begin of the year, from Sinar or from our distributors.
Thierry
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=218899\")
Link > [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20667&hl=sinar]try here[/url]
As I said... hopefully, this time around we can do it because everything I need/wanted is on the list, except we don't know the price... but I am willing to make excuses to buy one hehehehe
just don't tell me it will be delivered next year please.... that would be kind of snobbish
PS: Just for the record I am not selling my P30+ just adding P45+ or new generation combo by SINAR!!!
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[span style=\'font-size:11pt;line-height:100%\']Thierry, no excuses this time... as I said I will travel to Thailand if need be!!![/span]
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Natasa,
I have no excuse, but I don't sell from Thailand: you would have to pay the shipping costs AND my commission (but free Thai food cooked by my wife).
Thierry
[span style=\'font-size:11pt;line-height:100%\']Thierry, no excuses this time... as I said I will travel to Thailand if need be!!![/span]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218904\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
Thanks for all your information. And, yes, I'd much rather know the 65 is on the way, than wait till photokina to hear about it and it's price.
I've heard that the 54LV is not available in the US, and there are no plans to update it's screen to equal the improvement to the 75LV screen. Is this correct?
Also, I believe Leaf prices their 54 above their 65 which has a smaller albeit higher pixel chip. This makes me hope that the Hy6-65 will be cheaper than the Hy6 54LV.
Best,
Mitchell
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seems that I just "delete" all in my brain when the year is passed!
It was though not available begin of November '07 and since I had"deleted" ....
Thierry
Link > try here (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20667&hl=sinar)
As I said... hopefully, this time around we can do it because everything I need/wanted is on the list, except we don't know the price... but I am willing to make excuses to buy one hehehehe
just don't tell me it will be delivered next year please.... that would be kind of snobbish
PS: Just for the record I am not selling my P30+ just adding P45+ or new generation combo by SINAR!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Natasa,
I have no excuse, but I don't sell from Thailand: you would have to pay the shipping costs AND my commission (but free Thai food cooked by my wife).
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218907\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am up for it
I'll try to compensate Sinar workflow and free food with a nice present for your wife
Just say when you're ready.... or as I said before PM if it's easier!!!
-
It was though not available begin of November '07 and since I had"deleted" ....
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218910\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It was perfect time to put me on the list of customers followed by the list of equipment and for you/etc. to follow it up after christmas, that's all!!
But everybody was mute and I upgraded to P30+....
If you remember, at that time I had only P20+ and few lenses and was really ready to upgrade!!!
Hopefully that's History
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Thierry,
I've heard that the 54LV is not available in the US, and there are no plans to update it's screen to equal the improvement to the 75LV screen. Is this correct?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=218909\")
That's partly wrong:
- the eMotion 54 LV and the kit Sinar Hy6 - eMotion 54 LV (with or w/o revolving adapter) IS available in the USA ----> [a href=\"http://sinarbron.com/documents/Sinar_Pricing_2008.pdf]http://sinarbron.com/documents/Sinar_Pricing_2008.pdf[/url]
- it is correct that there are no plans to modify the OLED display of the eMotion 54 LV: it has already the latest technology and had been improved, though not the same as in the eMotion 75.
Also, I believe Leaf prices their 54 above their 65 which has a smaller albeit higher pixel chip. This makes me hope that the Hy6-65 will be cheaper than the Hy6 54LV.
Best,
Mitchell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218909\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Leaf Aptus 65 is a 28 MPx Dalsa sensor. I can't comment on the price.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Thanks Thierry.
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Dear hcubell,
No, it doesn't include it, as I have already said this a few months ago. It is a warranty which covers malfunction and defective parts.
BUT:
- it does include servicing and repair for 3 years after purchase.
- usually we (our distributors) are flexible enough to provide the customer with a loaner within 24 hours. This has to be discussed with the distributor. There is always a solution and I guess some here can intervene to support my claim.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There are warranties and there are warranties. A few weeks ago, I brought a luxury brand watch in for service under warranty, and they said, yes, the parts and labor are covered, but it will be three months to do the repair.
-
Yes, I agree, it happens to me quite often. Or then I am told that this "particular" malfunction or brake-down is not covered.
Back to Sinar's support/servicing: that's why I said we are flexible, take each case as a particular case, discuss and find a solution.
Thierry
There are warranties and there are warranties. A few weeks ago, I brought a luxury brand watch in for service under warranty, and they said, yes, the parts and labor are covered, but it will be three months to do the repair.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218919\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear hcubell,
No, it doesn't include it, as I have already said this a few months ago. It is a warranty which covers malfunction and defective parts.
BUT:
- it does include servicing and repair for 3 years after purchase.
- usually we (our distributors) are flexible enough to provide the customer with a loaner within 24 hours. This has to be discussed with the distributor. There is always a solution and I guess some here can intervene to support my claim.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
We have been the Distributors for Sinar in South Africa for a number of years and I cant say we have ever had a problem sending a backup within 24hrs. Granted we are a small area to deal with but we have stock and our clients are willing to settle for what we have to give them. On another note, we have never had to send a digital back, back to Sinar due to malfunction on Sinars behalf. It has always only been the clients that have either slammed the fire wire in between a door or dropped a camera etc...
As far as the communication between Distributors and Sinar are concerned, This is pretty good. We often have queries that we may not be able to answer but within an hour of emailing Sinar we will always get a reply, and majority of the time sort the problem that day.
I hope this helps... Regards
Dean
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Hi Dean,
Welcome on LL. Nice to have your backup: I felt a bit alone!
You must be kidding, when you say you have a small country (all is relative): how far is it from J'burg to Cape, or Cape to Durban???
Kind regards down there, also to Craig and the team.
Thierry
Granted we are a small area to deal with ...
Dean
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218926\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hi Dean,
Welcome on LL. Nice to have your backup: I felt a bit alone!
You must be kidding, when you say you have a small country (all is relative): how far is it from J'burg to Cape, or Cape to Durban???
Kind regards down there, also to Craig and the team.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218927\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It works in a triangle shape, with Cape Town being the most southern point of Africa and two hours (by plane or 1800Kms or 1118 miles) from Durban which is up the coast line. Johannesburg is inland from both Cape Town and Durban, this is about 1 hour form Durban (By plane and +-600kms or 370miles) and 1 and half hours from Cape Town.
I hope you guys out there can visualize this. If not look it up because it really is a beautiful Country, ask Thierry, he'll tell you.
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Thierry,
Looks like all Hell broke loose in Bangkok.
Eventually consider leaving, the irish foreign ministery advises people not to go there. Situation looks like out of control from here.
Stay safe!!
Best,
Georg
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hi Georg,
The situation always looks critical from outside and the images shown in medias: one has the impression that the whole country and each place in Bangkok is under threat.
This is obviously not the case, although the situation is serious: unrest, demonstrations and political activities are concentrated around the usual places like government and media buildings in the downtown area of Bangkok. All the rest is business as usual.
Staying away from those places is the right thing to do.
My concern is rather for the future of this country and the democratic process which seems impossible to go his way normally: all signs and behaviours in the entire society point to an non-readiness for democracy, and that's harming the country.
But then, I am a "farang", not allowed to judge, although leaving and dealing daily with it.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
Looks like all Hell broke loose in Bangkok.
Eventually consider leaving, the irish foreign ministery advises people not to go there. Situation looks like out of control from here.
Stay safe!!
Best,
Georg
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218965\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Really glad to hear you folks are safe!!
Hmmm, "farang" sounds like an ancient string instrument, or something to eat <grins>
However, as for the QCIP introduction, does this refer to a quadcore like I know from computers?
Tell me, is it a ridiculous thought to ponder why there is no MFDB system at all that has some sort of weather proofing, say splash water etc.? I wonder whether this is so expensive and tricky from a manufacturers point of view. Rubber seals for the body and lenses, sure requires some re design I would guess, but I would not think this is rocket science.
Just a thought.
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Dear Georg,
Hmmm, "farang" sounds like an ancient string instrument, or something to eat <grins>
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219046\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
"Farang" = foreigner name in Thailand
However, as for the QCIP introduction, does this refer to a quadcore like I know from computers?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219046\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, that's correct.
Tell me, is it a ridiculous thought to ponder why there is no MFDB system at all that has some sort of weather proofing, say splash water etc.? I wonder whether this is so expensive and tricky from a manufacturers point of view. Rubber seals for the body and lenses, sure requires some re design I would guess, but I would not think this is rocket science.
Just a thought.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219046\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I guess you are right, certainly not a "rocket science"
Best regards,
Thierry
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Hi Natasa,
Have PMed you.
Best regards,
Thierry
or as I said before PM if it's easier!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218911\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear hcubell,
... There is always a solution and I guess some here can intervene to support my claim.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There are warranties and there are warranties. A few weeks ago, I brought a luxury brand watch in for service under warranty, and they said, yes, the parts and labor are covered, but it will be three months to do the repair.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218919\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hcubell,
As you point out, Sinar doesn't offer a "guaranteed" 24-hour swap, which may be what you're looking for.
But I can support Thierry's claim, as I have had an opportunity to "experience" Sinar service, as a slight wiggle developed in my Hy6's revolving handle. After inquiring if this was normal (the reply was that there should be "absolutely no play whatsoever") I was surprised to have been overnight shipped a service loaner replacement Hy6 camera so that Sinar could take my camera and correct the wiggle.
Another service issue around the Hy6 hand strap cropped up during my recent trip to Iceland. Again, the camera remained functional, but as soon as I arrived back in Seattle, Sinar again cross-shipped replacement product overnight. Again, my setup was still completely operational, but Sinar impressed me with their willingness to set everything straight.
Sinar has shown me that they are very serious about standing behind their product, even when my camera gear was operational, they have done everything possible to look after me, right away. They have more than impressed me with their support.
Hope that helps. Best regards,
Brad
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The distributor of Sinar in my little country (Belgium) is Hotz, the best distributor of the land. The service is really effective and professionnal.
They also import Broncolor, Foba and Manfrotto. What could I find somewhere else ?
PdF
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WOW, Thierry your brand new ad on the page#7 of the new Pdn magazine is real nice @ the new Sinar arTec with help of Rainer V, a real nice coup for both of you.
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hi Sean,
I don't have seen the PDn magazine: link/sample, by any chance?
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
WOW, Thierry your brand new ad on the page#7 of the new Pdn magazine is real nice @ the new Sinar arTec with help of Rainer V, a real nice coup for both of you.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219283\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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hi Sean,
I don't have seen the PDn magazine: link/sample, by any chance?
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219308\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am sorry, but Pdnonline.com have not posted their print magazine yet, as I received the issue only today. Idid the search but could not find the ad, but bylines are the same as in your press release. Either way it looks real good. I guess there will be a lotsa people applauding around your booth @ 'kina.
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Exactly, thanks Graham!
I hope not having started again a heated debate about "sensor size" and with those relating it to the size of the sensor.
We are speaking here about the sensor technology used, as named by Kodak.
To make it clear, this sensor has the same size as any other 31,6 MPx sensor used in digital backs: 44x33 mm.
Best regards,
Thierry
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=218047\")
Thanks for this product info!
FWIW, all Kodak CCD info can be found on this matrix:
[a href=\"http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/ISS/Products/Fullframe/index.jhtml?pq-path=12138]http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/IS...l?pq-path=12138[/url]
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Download of the newly available "Sinar Hy6 - 65", "Sinar Hy6 - s65r" & Sinarback eSprit 65 brochure here:
http://www.sinarcameras.com/site/index__ga...s-rand-185.html (http://www.sinarcameras.com/site/index__gast-e-1072-24-1154-urlvars-rand-185.html)
---> "Brochures" ---> "Sinar Hy6 -65"
Best regards,
Thierry
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is the iso base setting really 200? or is that a typo?
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yes, it seems to be ≥ 200 iso.
I don't know if there is a real difference between the 200iso of this S65 and the 100iso of the Hasselblad H3DII 31mp, or the 50iso of the Leaf AFI6 (28mp)...or the 25iso of the Sinar HY6 e54 (even if this one is not a 31mp but a 22mp) ? Perhaps a 200iso in 2008 equal the image characteristic of a 25iso five years ago ?...
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We have been the Distributors for Sinar in South Africa for a number of years and I cant say we have ever had a problem sending a backup within 24hrs. Granted we are a small area to deal with but we have stock and our clients are willing to settle for what we have to give them. On another note, we have never had to send a digital back, back to Sinar due to malfunction on Sinars behalf. It has always only been the clients that have either slammed the fire wire in between a door or dropped a camera etc...
As far as the communication between Distributors and Sinar are concerned, This is pretty good. We often have queries that we may not be able to answer but within an hour of emailing Sinar we will always get a reply, and majority of the time sort the problem that day.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218926\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
We are the Sinar Distributors in New Zealand, and I can back up what Dean has said here. We receive technical advice within same day or next day direct from Sinar Tech, and further more, we recently ordered a small part on Friday, and it arrived on Monday. Considering that Switzerland is on the opposite side of the earth to New Zealand, that's not bad at all !!
Adam Custins
www.kingsize.co.nz
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If 200 ISO is the base sensitivity, hopefully it will go up to a clean 1600 ISO eventually, even though the specs currently say 800.
Ben
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Hmmm... is a base ISO of 200 going to work with the nice fast Schneider glass like the 110/2 or 80/2 or 180/2.8 all of which have max shutter speeds of 1/500. Everything's a trade off I guess.
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Hmmm... is a base ISO of 200 going to work with the nice fast Schneider glass like the 110/2 or 80/2 or 180/2.8 all of which have max shutter speeds of 1/500. Everything's a trade off I guess.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220207\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
that's the tradeoff off leaf shutter systems, always depens what you actually need.
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Hmmm... is a base ISO of 200 going to work with the nice fast Schneider glass like the 110/2 or 80/2 or 180/2.8 all of which have max shutter speeds of 1/500. Everything's a trade off I guess.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220207\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
True, I hope I'll always have an ISO 50 option.
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True, I hope I'll always have an ISO 50 option.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220277\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
arent nd filters an option to consider ?
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arent nd filters an option to consider ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220280\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not for people photography with manual focus. I need all the viewfinder brightness I can get for fast and critical focusing. ND filters might also impair AF performance.
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Not for people photography with manual focus. I need all the viewfinder brightness I can get for fast and critical focusing. ND filters might also impair AF performance.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
understood.
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it looks like our measurements of the base ISO of this sensor is closer to 200 than 100 (given a certain working space and contrast curve).
The current data is given as a "conservative" value, and possibly it will have ISO 100 as a setting as well.
Best regards,
Thierry
is the iso base setting really 200? or is that a typo?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220137\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Not for people photography with manual focus. I need all the viewfinder brightness I can get for fast and critical focusing. ND filters might also impair AF performance.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
why the need for f2 lens and flash. if you shoot f2 with flash then iso will probably have to become iso 10.
if shooter is outside in bright sunlight and you can only go to 500 shutter speed then maybe a .3 nd filtration will not be a problem as bright sunlight is very easy to focus even when using a .3 nd.
the f+h camera is so bright in the viewfinder that a .3 will probably be the equal of others viewfinders.
in factual do not you have a 50 iso camera anyway.
think of all the expense you have saved.
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why the need for f2 lens and flash. if you shoot f2 with flash then iso will probably have to become iso 10.
if shooter is outside in bright sunlight and you can only go to 500 shutter speed then maybe a .3 nd filtration will not be a problem as bright sunlight is very easy to focus even when using a .3 nd.
the f+h camera is so bright in the viewfinder that a .3 will probably be the equal of others viewfinders.
in factual do not you have a 50 iso camera anyway.
think of all the expense you have saved.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220377\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The same for me. A low sensitivity digital back is really important to use in the studio with large aperture and less depth-of-field. A sophisticated lighting with strobes gives allways high level of lighting.
It was really different in the era of 4/5 and 8/10 inches standard jobs...
PdF
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why the need for f2 lens and flash.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220377\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am not sure I understand the point, but I want to control lighting, of course. I almost never shoot in natural light. I might also want a shallow DOF.
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And here it is confirmed:
the ISO range for the "Sinar Hy6 - 65" and the Sinarback eSprit 65 LV will be ISO 100 to 800.
Best regards,
Thierry
it looks like our measurements of the base ISO of this sensor is closer to 200 than 100 (given a certain working space and contrast curve).
The current data is given as a "conservative" value, and possibly it will have ISO 100 as a setting as well.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220368\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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FYI:
I just saw the Sinar Hy6 - 65 shooting some images. I am impressed by the display, very bright and high-res. The "rotating" display, when the camera is turned from H to V or opposite, is also very nice and impressive. A very nice feature, IMO.
Leaving with all that gear to Photokina now, and hoping to meet some of you at our booth: you are warmly welcome to visit us.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Thierry,
Please let us know when there are ISO 100 & 800 dngs to download.
Thank you,
Billy
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some things I cannot understand
eMotion75 does have an mamiya RZ Pro II adapter
so why not esprit65?
Can the emotion adapter be used for the esprit?
If you have an mamiya 645 AFDIII adapter, you should be able to connect it to an RZ Pro II D ?
Is it possible to attach an external hard Disk (as with Hasselblad imagebank)?
When using the esprit65 on the Hasselblad V system, does it rotate?
ISO 800 is fine
possibly one can push to 1600 with software?
can 't wait to check it out at my dealer ;-)
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Thierry,
Would you please define for me the respective roles of the Hy6 verse the Sinar M?
Advantages/disadvantages of each for other than studio work - landscape, arch., street work.
Thanks
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eMotion75 does have an mamiya RZ Pro II adapter
so why not esprit65?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The eSprit 65 does accept excatly the same adapters as the eMotion series (54 LV, 75 and 75 LV). The mechanical adaption is not a problem, but for the time being, only the Hy6 and the V system are supported by the back and by the software.
Can the emotion adapter be used for the esprit?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, see above, but no FW and software support yet for this camera platform (Mamiya RZ 67).
If you have an mamiya 645 AFDIII adapter, you should be able to connect it to an RZ Pro II D ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, but see above: it must be supported by the back's firmware (and eXposure software).
Is it possible to attach an external hard Disk (as with Hasselblad imagebank)?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No external hard disk, CF cards or tethered.
When using the esprit65 on the Hasselblad V system, does it rotate?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It rotates, by taking the back away and mounting it V or H, but no revolving adapter is available.
ISO 800 is fine
possibly one can push to 1600 with software?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Possibly
can 't wait to check it out at my dealer ;-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Best regards,
Thierry
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Thierry,
great news indeed.
I hope for 1600 "usable-no-noise" ISO
and adapterplates for my V system and Mamiya RZ pro II
patrick
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=218064\")
Full specifications and uk pricing is published [a href=\"http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=2151&cat=38]technical specs for hy6 65 and eSprit[/url]
maybe this will give Thierry some rest!