P65+

[dustblue]

mobility.
one thing I hate about assignments is they all ask me to shoot tethered, I hate the hassle of wires. IF mfdb makers could provide something like canon WFT-E2, it will be great, you know they dont have to use the military wifi technology, just 802.11g/n is enough for jpeg preview transmition. And for me this is even a better choice than a good large built-in LCD

So why not just shoot tethered? That brings other advantages with it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208043\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Graham Mitchell]

mobility.
one thing I hate about assignments is they all ask me to shoot tethered, I hate the hassle of wires. IF mfdb makers could provide something like canon WFT-E2, it will be great, you know they dont have to use the military wifi technology, just 802.11g/n is enough for jpeg preview transmition. And for me this is even a better choice than a good large built-in LCD
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208054\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I also dislike wires, but it seems that people here are willing to spend $5000 on an external LCD screen for the back, but why not just add a laptop for a lot less? I don't see the logic.

[condit79]

So why not just shoot tethered? That brings other advantages with it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208043\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The real thing is that we see so many options in dslrs, red cams, etc. and wonder why the medium format previews suck.  A real lcd brings all kinds of advantages (and a video out can be really handy for using medium sized battery powered lcds).  Sure, shooting tethered is great, especially when starting out a shoot to really get the light dialed in, but I really like to unplug after i get the look nailed (if an art director doesn´t need to see every shot).  Mobility is really important for some people.  For example, I just did an editorial in an area in madrid where even just a tall model, my team and my camera was attention getting enough.  A laptop would have made it a nightmare. (think edge of city, falling down buildings and gypsies yelling Guapa! and offering their house for the shoot in exchange for money...)

I shoot with an h2 and p30 a bit, but I find myself having to resort to my 1dsmkII for lots of things because its iso 400 and 800 are cleaner, I look at the lcd and see what I´m getting amongst other things.  

If this p65+ can get me a fairly clean iso 800 (I don´t mind some texture, that can look really great) a 1fps if not more and has a REAL PREVIEW, i´ll be much more likely to rent it and consider it as permanent tool in my arsenal.  

Oh and being an emerging photographer and making sure every purchase makes sense (fiscal responsibility is everything for me right now) will make or break me.  I need to have thousands in the bank and on the card to be able to rent whatever I require for a shoot.  40k just seems crazy to me for another still camera when my clients are extremely happy with 1dsmkII files or p30+ files.  give me a real reason phase to want your camera and back.  Warmed over updates won´t do this day and age.  Editorial pays less and less and recession means tightened budgets on commercial shoots.  Its not that well established shooters aren´t getting their rates, its the emerging shooters that really struggle in these times, and access to great tools shouldn´t be so prohibitive.  

I look around at all the shooters I know and maybe 1/4 shoot medium format digital for more than 50% of their work, not because its quality, but because of price and usability.  Don´t make me pay more and make my work harder.  I just see in some ways medium format kind of glazing over the emerging shooters needs and budgets.  I mean 40k will get me a couple of great productions for my book, promotion, and a flight to nyc to show it around.  Compel me phase, make me want your product, make me NEED your product.  And then put it at a price that makes some sense. (I´m talking paying for what you get).  

My clients want me to listen to them, and appreciate it when I pay attention to the little details.   I guess, I just want Phase to listen to me and answer why the lcds have to suck so badly at the price that backs come out at.  I mean, a 30 inch eizo, 30 INCHES and what does that cost?  I´m just asking for 2 inches (3 would be amazing).  Digital is all about instant feedback, make that work.  Please?


And micheal, I´m sure there are lots of factors that go into the developing, manufacturing, etc that we´ll never know.  You make some great points.  But still, when you come out with a new product, make it a real upgrade.  I just hope this one is.

[robert zimmerman]

Gidday,

All ready talking to the Phase rep in New Zealand.

Hope I get a good trade in on my Aptus 75.

Simon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you do, tell me how you did it. I couldn't even get an offer from phaseone for my Leaf back. Maybe it's just the German dealers who aren't interested...

good luck!

[lance_schad]

Where's Lance?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207983\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ok it's Monday morning and I am back (sorry it was Sunday  )

Here is some of the information that was presented to us on Friday
•P65+ back,
• Price adjustments on Refurbished Backs will post separate
•T/S lens
• Enhancements to CaptureOne Pro 4.1 for Hasselblad V and H series lenses.

New P65+ digital back specs/features :
It features a Dalsa sensor that has been developed with close cooperation from Phase One and includes many Phase One patents. This chip is exclusive to Phase One.
The dimensions are 53.9mmx40.4mm @ 6x6 micron – 60.5 MP CCD.
Lens magnification is 1.0x ! 20% larger image area then the 36x49mm CCD.
180MB TIF file in 8-bit RGB
Raw IIQL file size – 60MB
Raw IIQS file size – 40MB
(keep in mind the H25 which was 22MP in RAW 3.0 format had a RAW file size of about 43MB)
Capture Rates as fast as 1 frame/sec
ISO range 50-800
12.5 f-stops DR
Optimized for T&S and Wide Angle (less lens cast calibration required)
Exposure range 1/4000 to 1 min
Available in P/M645AFD , V, H and Contax Mount

Performance of CCD can be upgraded with new features as they become available with Phase One Sensor+ technology. Here are a few bullet points they mentioned that over time they will be able to provide:
Scalable pixel/file size
Higher Sensitivity and larger dynamic range
Increased flexibility for operation and capture
Improved capture rates


Showing at Photokina 2008 and Shipping will start in Q4/2008

P65+ Classic - $39,990
P65+ VA - $42,990
P65+ Classic bundle w/ PhaseOne 645AF system $41,990
P65+ VA bundle w/ PhaseOne 645AF system $45,990

If you order a P65+ today you may pay for a P45+ and then pay the difference when your P65+ is ready to be shippied.

Upgrade pricing has not been announced yet . We will follow up with it as soon as it does.

New T/S lens
This is a new lens that PhaseOne is bringing to market that has a focal length of 45mm (eqiv. To 24mm for 35mm camera). It is manual focus, and has an aperture range of 3.5-22 . Starting to ship in July for $3990. It is for the PhaseOne/Mamiya 645AF mount.

CaptureOne 4.1x
Enhancements for other lenses with Focus+ and Lens+
Being released next month a FREE plug in will be available for using the Lens+ and Focus+ tools to: Remove lens artifacts, correct for color aberration and fringing and provide improvements of image sharpness and resolution. This is for all Hasselblad H and V series lenses

As we get more information we will post it.

Always if you have any questions please contact myself, Chris, Dave or Doug here at Capture Integration.

Also more information up on our website

Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
877-217-7870
Capture Integration
[email protected]

[Guy Mancuso]

Ah man , anyone want to buy a piece of my house. LOL

Lance some really great news for the industry there. That T/S I WANT. July you mean like now it is available.

[Graham Mitchell]

It features a Dalsa sensor that has been developed with close cooperation from Phase One and includes many Phase One patents. This chip is exclusive to Phase One.

Oh, interesting.

[narikin]

Bernard, we europeans has been ripped of for a long time now. The price of the new P65 is almost the same (actually cheaper) as a new P45+ kit. That means they are actually lowering their prices. From our eyes of course....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208033\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

well that settles it then if the new P65+ back is nearly the same price as a P45+ in Europe, but leaps from $30K to $40k in USA ($43k with 3 year value added...!) it's clearly to reset their US prices, and align them to Euro-zone and other territories.

Fair enough I guess if you are a European company who has seen your revenues seriously decline as the American Peso devalues thanks to George W's total mis-management of the economy.

I imagine P45+ is going to hold its value quite well under the new pricing, so thats good for current owners.

[narikin]

on another note - if this is a Dalsa sensor, does that mean it doesn't need the 'wake up' time +cord, that Phase backs needed with Alpa cameras etc, and their Kodak sensors.

Up till now Alpa / View camera usage was slightly easier with Leaf/Dalsa because it was 'instant on', whereas Phase needed to be primed, now however.... that could be fixed? It is some kind of trade for the loss of super-long exposures, I guess.

any word if this is so Chris/ Michael?

[JDG]

on another note - if this is a Dalsa sensor, does that mean it doesn't need the 'wake up' time +cord, that Phase backs needed with Alpa cameras etc, and their Kodak sensors.

Up till now Alpa / View camera usage was slightly easier with Leaf/Dalsa because it was 'instant on', whereas Phase needed to be primed, now however.... that could be fixed? It is some kind of trade for the loss of super-long exposures, I guess.

any word if this is so Chris/ Michael?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208073\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I cant imagine that would be the case.  wake-up architecture is not a sensor dependent issue to my knowledge, but rather a back operation architecture.  To have "instant on" you have to have the CCD on at all time and therefore require active cooling with a fan.  Phase One's system was designed to keep the CCD cool without a fan.

[James R Russell]

Speaking more generally, it amazes me when people think that camera companies are not aware of what their customers are saying. Maybe in the case of the Japanese companies they are a bit more insular, but I know that their European and American management make sure regularly that the factories know what their customers are saying.

In the case of companies like Phase One, and the others like Sinar and Leaf and Hasselblad, their management is VERY aware of what is being said by their dealers and customers, as well as on forums such as this.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208045\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I know they are  aware of the lcd, semi aware of the previews, not that aware of in camera processing and defineable settings and nowhere near aware of skin tone rendering, in different lighting situations.

At least not with the people I talk to. (Phase is not singled out on that statement).

Phase is committed, hell all of us are committed, but the real test is to shoot an image on a medium format back, point the lcd at the medium format back maker and ask this question . . .

Would you bet $100,000 of your own money that this photograph is correct?

The thing is at $40,000 the camera makers are in real professional territory where the compromises should be very small.  After all they are now at 5 times the price of a Canon or Nikon.  

Whew . . . 5 times.  

LCD preview, post processing, color rendering, (especially in ambient subdued light) should be perfect.  Multiple monitors, video out, should be a standard.  Additional battery packs, real professional battery chargers that don't look they came from Casio should be a given and most importantly direct manufacturer repsonse should be  24-7.  None of this call a dealer and start a case thing.

The cameras should also be no compromise.  It just amazes me that not one new medium format camera has a right angle grip.  Even Nikon's $2,000 dslr has one.

As far as ISO, I hope with the pixel binning thing that a clean 1000 iso  and I hope that means 30mpx rather than 15mpx to get there.

Remember there is a simple 22mpx $8,000 upgrade to get to a clean 800 iso and that's called a 1ds3.

Then again the Dalsa chipped camera I used before was very overly optomistic on their ISO settings, where 400 was really 200, 200 was 100 etc. etc.

Consequently 400 iso on the P30+ really matches my 400 iso on the Canons (if the Canons are a benchmark).

Regardless of how this sounds, I'm not down on this camera, because it's not in the market yet and until you drive it like you stole it, it really doesn't matter what they put in PR releases.

Also knowing Phase I'm sure when they deliver it it will be stable and sturdy.

I still know that if Phase, or Leaf, or Hasselblad had a system that was ONLY professional like the Red, with no consumer bits, well thought out previews, a huge accessory line  and a system that looked like it could continue on for decades, that $40,000 investment would be a lot easier check to write.

When you put $40,000 on the sticks you want the room to go wow, not oh yea,  a lot of people have those.

Then again, if medium format doesn't hit all the buttons and make their products ground breaking and you want to save 20 or 30 thousand there is always my sticker upgrade package.




JR

[James R Russell]

I also dislike wires, but it seems that people here are willing to spend $5000 on an external LCD screen for the back, but why not just add a laptop for a lot less? I don't see the logic.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208057\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's not the money, or the computers.  Hell we carry 4 computers to set.

It's that depending on the room, sometimes you don't want to show the image to the world, sometimes you want to show the image to all the world.

Look . . . the previews in medium format are just awful.  We have all put up with it, all worked around it, all talked about it, all tried various ways to improve it and at $20,000 it's hard to take that the preview is that bad, but at $40,000, no way can it be accepted and the excuses are getting as little thin.

There has to be another option rather than putting a blackout  tent on location and running over every few frames to make sure you have the shot.

Also don't you find it a little silly that polaroid has been replaced by 500 lbs of comptuer, cart, generators and montiors?

Listen to those Red interviews.  to a person every one of thos acclaimed directors and cinematographers mentions how great it is NOT to have a tech running around behind the camera or to be hooked to a wire.

When I shoot tethered it's a fight for the project not to get flat flooted.  You can feel the wire, you can hear the comments and see all the buzz going to the computer rather than to the camera and the set.

I want the creative's involved, but sometimes I don't want everyone in the room making comments, because it is just an energy drain.

There should be options from Ipod type devices, all the way to huge plasma displays, but for 40 grand, there should be options.

It really isn't about the camera, we don't walk into the room because of the camera, we walk in the room to make the photograph.

The camera should be adaptable for any scenario and most importantly not get in the way.

I get a kick out of these conversations because everytime there is a new annoucement, HY6, Mamiya, Phase, Hasselblad, it's like the second coming, but when you boil it all down, you have to step back and say will this $40,000 make my photos better.

Graham, will an Hy6 make your photos better?  Will it make you more money?

And if it will when you going to buy a few?


JR

[Graham Mitchell]

The cameras should also be no compromise.  It just amazes me that not one new medium format camera has a right angle grip.  Even Nikon's $2,000 dslr has one.

Do you mean something like a battery grip? Why should the Hy6 have one? The camera never needs to be rotated, which is even better than Canikon.

[snickgrr]

I still know that if Phase, or Leaf, or Hasselblad had a system that was ONLY professional like the Red, with no consumer bits, well thought out previews, a huge accessory line  and a system that looked like it could continue on for decades, that $40,000 investment would be a lot easier check to write

[BJL]

This and the details at http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1digitalb...troduction.aspx seem to confirm what a number of us have been saying:
binning (and even downsamping in raw conversion) can give a lower pixel count with improvement in both dynamic range and noise level "per pixel", through partial cancellation of the noise (signal fluctuations) from adjacent photosites.

Scalable pixel/file size
* Higher Sensitivity and larger dynamic range *
Increased flexibility for operation and capture
Improved capture rates
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208062\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The improved capture rates suggests that this works by the sensor itself outputting fewer pixels. I recall a Dalsa presentation a year or so ago on new technology for binning on color sensors.

Then again, Kodak is also doing color binning in at least on one interline CCD. So we might soon see 30MP and 15MP lower noise, higher frame rate options in 60MP 645 format sensors from both Kodak and Dalsa.

Such binned output should have lees moiré than sensors of those lower photosite counts.

[amsp]

New T/S lens
This is a new lens that PhaseOne is bringing to market that has a focal length of 45mm (eqiv. To 24mm for 35mm camera). It is manual focus, and has an aperture range of 3.5-22 . Starting to ship in July for $3990. It is for the PhaseOne/Mamiya 645AF mount.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208062\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Please tell me they're not going to charge 3990$ for a reworked Hartblei 45mm f/3.5 Super-Rotator  

[SeanBK]

The Machines will win this one...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208085\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Will they have a better screen, that is the question.  
      I tend to agree with everything James R said so succinctly. In this day & age with recession upon us, LCD is not that difficult to give to the buyers of $40k back - [span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']the fastest devaluing hardware on the planet[/span]. LCD getting hot don't fly with me, as one can put LCD on a swingout arm, like Red & all other camcorders do.  Instead of exulting the patent pending virtues of brand new 645, Spend R&D money on things customers WANT.
   Based on Phase misleading higher ISOs, I have qualms @ their D.R specs. It seems strange that newer better model can shoot up to only ONE MINUTE compared to older +models to hours. I am surprised. There goes landscaping (H2O motion) & Architectural market.

[hubell]

New T/S lens
This is a new lens that PhaseOne is bringing to market that has a focal length of 45mm (eqiv. To 24mm for 35mm camera). It is manual focus, and has an aperture range of 3.5-22 . Starting to ship in July for $3990. It is for the PhaseOne/Mamiya 645AF mount.

Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
877-217-7870
Capture Integration
[email protected]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208062\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Lance: Who makes the 45 mm T/S lens?

[clawery]

on another note - if this is a Dalsa sensor, does that mean it doesn't need the 'wake up' time +cord, that Phase backs needed with Alpa cameras etc, and their Kodak sensors.

Up till now Alpa / View camera usage was slightly easier with Leaf/Dalsa because it was 'instant on', whereas Phase needed to be primed, now however.... that could be fixed? It is some kind of trade for the loss of super-long exposures, I guess.

any word if this is so Chris/ Michael?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It is a Dalsa sensor.  I'm not sure about the need for a wake up cable yet, but will post as soon as I know if it is needed or not.  The exposures will be shorter that what you are used to on the P+ backs.  Currently the P+ backs can do 1 hr. + exposures, but I was told the P65+ will only handle 1 minute exposures at this point.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
[email protected]
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year[/url]

877-217-9870 | National
404-234-5195 | Cell  
Sign up for our Newsletter | Read Our Latest Newsletter

[James R Russell]

Instead of exulting the patent pending virtues of brand new 645, Spend R&D money on things customers WANT.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208089\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Two things medium format must do before I or anyone I know will write a bigger check.

1.  Give me something I can't do without.  Make is so what I presently own would be embarassing on a large project.

2.  Don't send out 1/2 detailed press repeases and pdf's.  Get to the facts about iso, lcds, speed, battery life, computer requirements etc. etc. etc. etc.

We all see the pdf's and all of them are a lot of sizzle withhout a lot of steak.

I know that medium format seems to be in this arms race of who is bigger and better, but we're professionals so just give us the facts man.

JR