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Author Topic: P65+  (Read 125830 times)

samuel_js

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« Reply #100 on: July 13, 2008, 05:57:35 pm »

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it sounds great, but... OUCH - that price US$40,000 !!!

any word on what the trade up from a P45+ is going to be Michael?

its a whole new world at that level - we all grumbled at the $28-30k level for 39mp, but now its a new paradigm of pricing. I suspect its also got something to do with harmonising the dollar and euro prices, as they had got too far out of whack with Europeans paying 10,000 Euros more than US photogs for the same back. I expect its a lot closer at this level, and the US price hike to $40k is maybe not such a price hike to Europeans.
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You are right, $4000 in Europe is less than the actual european price for a P45+ kit.
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juicy

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« Reply #101 on: July 13, 2008, 06:04:41 pm »

Will there come a time when due to larger and higher resolution sensors people start to seriously question the quality of their mf-wa-lenses except for a couple of very expensive view-camera lenses? Or are the problems only in the superwide category like 28mm?

Cheers,
J
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pprdigital

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« Reply #102 on: July 13, 2008, 06:19:14 pm »

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Please correct me if I'm wrong Steve, but I don't believe that one can put a Leaf, Sinar or Phase One back on an H3F with functionality similar to what existed on an H1 or H2? I thought that the F stood for Film, and that's what Hasselblad's web site and literature infers.

Michael
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I have to admit I have not yet put a Leaf Aptus or Sinar eMotion on an H2F (I'm waiting on a test unit from Hasselblad), but it's my understanding you can indeed do that. It may be necessary to utilize a flash sync cable, and that would certainly constitute some step backard for 3rd party users. If that is indeed the case, then we might have to agree on a grey area that while not closed, it is to some degree not as fully functional as the H1/H2 series with 3rd party backs.

I can provide a more complete picture soon.

Steve Hendrix
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hubell

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« Reply #103 on: July 13, 2008, 06:29:19 pm »

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Well, one could interpret it that way, except that it would simply be wrong.

This is not a new chip from Dalsa that Phase One has obtained exclusive rights to, as you incorrectly state. It is a chip designed by Phase One in cooperation with Dalsa, using Phase One technology and patents, which is then being fabricated for Phase One by Dalsa.

There is quite a difference between this and what you have stated, and to my mind little if any similarity to Hasselblad's closing of their once open camera system to competing backs.

Michael
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I did not know Phase was in the business of chip R&D and fabrication.  Does Dalsa have another 60mp chip for Leaf and Sinar? Have any of the other state of the art chips in recent years been exclusively available to one MFDB maker?

Interesting questions, but as I said, ultimately irrelevant to me. What is relevant is when all is said and done and all the players have actually delivered their new full frame chips, do any of these new chips advance the state of the art in IQ. A marginal increase in resolution would make zero difference in the quality of my work.  It would really be interesting if Hasselblad or Sinar or Leaf came out with a new full frame 645 chip from......Fuji or Sony or CANON, chip makers with a photographic rather than spy satellite background.  Hmmmm.
BTW, I would trade the step-up from 39 to full frame 60mp for an LCD like Nikon's in a heartbeat.

Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #104 on: July 13, 2008, 06:33:35 pm »

One other thing this does is also maybe help us in the wide angles the 28mm from Mamiya and Hassy are very expensive and giving us FF now across the broad may help some of us just staying with the 35mm lenses. With this thought I maybe finding less need to run out and get a 28mm to a certain point. Not sure my math is even close but my guess now a 28mm would equal maybe a 19mm Full Frame which yes there is a need but some of use maybe able to squeeze by with a 35mm lens that will be more like a 24mm FF 35mm lens. My math maybe wrong
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hubell

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« Reply #105 on: July 13, 2008, 06:42:30 pm »

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One other thing this does is also maybe help us in the wide angles the 28mm from Mamiya and Hassy are very expensive and giving us FF now across the broad may help some of us just staying with the 35mm lenses. With this thought I maybe finding less need to run out and get a 28mm to a certain point. Not sure my math is even close but my guess now a 28mm would equal maybe a 19mm Full Frame which yes there is a need but some of use maybe able to squeeze by with a 35mm lens that will be more like a 24mm FF 35mm lens. My math maybe wrong
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The cost of a 28mm Hasselblad lens is around $4K. The cost of a trade-up from an H3D-39 to a H3DII-50 will be around $28,000! To a full frame H3DII-60, who knows.

jmboss

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« Reply #106 on: July 13, 2008, 06:44:17 pm »

If the photo of the P65+ as shown in Michael's preview article is of an actual production model, then I am quite disappointed with Phase One's continued use of the small LCD monitor screen. I would have hoped for bigger and better (and brighter?) on a $40,000 digital back!

Joe Bossuyt
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michael

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« Reply #107 on: July 13, 2008, 06:59:13 pm »

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If the photo of the P65+ as shown in Michael's preview article is of an actual production model, then I am quite disappointed with Phase One's continued use of the small LCD monitor screen. I would have hoped for bigger and better (and brighter?) on a $40,000 digital back!

Joe Bossuyt
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Me too!

Michael
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Caracalla

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« Reply #108 on: July 13, 2008, 07:08:25 pm »

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If the photo of the P65+ as shown in Michael's preview article is of an actual production model, then I am quite disappointed with Phase One's continued use of the small LCD monitor screen. I would have hoped for bigger and better (and brighter?) on a $40,000 digital back!

Joe Bossuyt
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There is enough money on the price tag to include Bigger Screen. I wouldn't worry about it at all, just wait and you'll see it in time for Photokina
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lance_schad

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« Reply #109 on: July 13, 2008, 07:17:25 pm »

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The cost of a 28mm Hasselblad lens is around $4K. The cost of a trade-up from an H3D-39 to a H3DII-50 will be around $28,000! To a full frame H3DII-60, who knows.
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Wow so $28,000 + $33,995 list of H3dII39 = about $62k for a camera system!?!? Upgrade prices have not been announced by Phase , but that seems very steep for being a valued user.
BTW H3DII-60??? Have not heard that announcement.

Lance
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Nick Rains

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« Reply #110 on: July 13, 2008, 07:19:49 pm »

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The following is not aimed at any manufacturer.  It is all my opinion, from a people shooter in a major market.  Full disclosure:  I have a P30+ on an AFd and I love the image quality.  My dealer has been fantastic.

The new product announcements from Phase and Blad are symptomatic of the problem with the MFDB and photography industries in general.  The reality is this, at least for most people shooters:  Rates are down, clients want more services for less money, clients want tethered, most clients don't care or want to know about file size or what you are shooting (they care more about catering), and the investment in equipment has gone up and up, and you must reinvest every three to four years.  On top of that, there is less and less need for high quality print collateral.  Demand is still there, but you really need max of 30 meg 8 bit CMYK tiffs for most mags, and yes, those bus stop ads from a 1ds look just fine.

In this market, with these realities, we get more expensive backs that give us bigger files?  Do any photographers look at ROI?  Anyone?  Bueller?  I know I do.  The ROI on an MFDB sucks.  No really, it does.  Its worse than it was even a year ago because even on editorial shoots they are balking at paying me to rent my own back or they have an arrangement with a rental house, or they want film.  Compare this to buying a Sony EX1 for $6500.  Complete kit with extra batteries and a few PCI-X 16 gig cards is $10k, that's right, less than a P30+, about on par with a P21+.  Just showing up with this cam and pulling focus for 8 hours nets you over $2,000.  That's not even directing etc., which, for a one day shoot and some simple motion graphics for a department store's in-store display, gets you $15k.  My point is that even mundane jobs with video provide a much, much higher revenue than stills, and gets there with a quarter of the investment. This is why buying two 5D's or used 1ds/1ds2's and a few lenses for less than $10k, renting an MFDB when needed, is the SMART move. 

This predicament is, I think, the result of how photographers work versus the way our motion picture bretheren work.  Stills require less collaboration on the whole, so stills shooters work in a vacuum. Most studios of most photographers consist of the shooter and a studio manager, perhaps a first assistant.  None of these actors are really equiped by education or training to run a business, and they have little contact with other studios regarding rates, practices, etc because we all compete with each other.  Motion guys and gals must work with large groups of people because of the complexity of a motion picture shoot.  There are also production companies and very sharp business types who have little to do with the technical and artistic side of movie making.  These people make the business decisions.  With stills, its one guy wears all the hats, and he can't be good at all of functions of running a business.  This results in less than optimal business decisions regarding equipment purchases, not to mention getting raped on rates by clients. 

Could you imagine if stills guys unionized?  The motion guys have been unionized forever. We can't even get the ASMP to respond intelligently to legislation that could take away part of what's left of our IP rights. We can't even stop eachother from undercutting eachother on rates.

This has veered around, but this is the reality of the market these new backs are being pushed into.  A situation like this cannot last.  There will be a market correction.  The question is who or what will be the change agent?  I think maybe Red.  A new camera that is for the future and that is priced to give a healthy ROI given the fading print market.  Then who will be left?  the market will be over saturated with manufacturers of pro cameras.  Nikon and Canon, Sinar because of their technical/view camera expertise and surprising forsight in making a camera like the ArcTec, and maybe Blad because of their marketing prowess.  That being said, they need to get prices down to expand the market.  And if they can't because they won't make any money if they charge less, well, that might be end of some companies, or maybe a consolidation.

One question:  who really owns Mamiya?  Is it really Cosmos?  I've heard it was not Cosmos, but rather some other more interesting player.  Anyone?  Thierry?
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Just hooked into this thread...

TMARK, you have your head screwed on right, there's a lot of wisdom in this post. ROI on MFDBs does indeed suck.

Will 60Mp earn you more money - or do you just want one? That's the question.  No doubt taxi drivers would like to use a BMW M5 for work - same thing really, 4 doors, wheels etc. but for ROI, probably not a good idea.

I'm with the 'more useful features' not the 'bigger is better' camp.
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Nick Rains
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hubell

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« Reply #111 on: July 13, 2008, 07:59:06 pm »

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Wow so $28,000 + $33,995 list of H3dII39 = about $62k for a camera system!?!? Upgrade prices have not been announced by Phase , but that seems very steep for being a valued user.
BTW H3DII-60??? Have not heard that announcement.

Lance
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I think I am off by about six thousand. If he new camera goes for $40K and Hasselblad allows a trad value of $18K for an H3D-39, the delta will be $22K. What do you think Phase will allow for a P45(not Plus) against a P65?

BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #112 on: July 13, 2008, 08:00:24 pm »

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The only hope for MF is to cut the prices in half and multiply the volume by 4. Kodak, or whatever company providing the sensor, should follow and lower their prices also if long term sustainability is a goal of theirs.
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It would seem that Phase thinks different...

40.000 US$ for a P65+... these guys are crazy. Make it 20.000 US$ and I'll buy one.

The second hand P45 and P45+ in the 15.000 - 23.000 US$ range will sell like hot cakes.

Cheers,
Bernard

michael

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« Reply #113 on: July 13, 2008, 08:46:03 pm »

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I did not know Phase was in the business of chip R&D and fabrication. Does Dalsa have another 60mp chip for Leaf and Sinar? Have any of the other state of the art chips in recent years been exclusively available to one MFDB maker?

There's a world of difference between sensor design and fabrication. A fab costs billions - literally, and therefore there are few of them, especially for CCD devices of the size we're talking about.

Many camera makers have proprietary relationships with chip fabricators. Look at Nikon and Sony, as but one example.

Michael
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 08:48:01 pm by michael »
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James R Russell

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« Reply #114 on: July 13, 2008, 09:04:07 pm »

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Will 60Mp earn you more money - or do you just want one? That's the question. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207949\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well, we all invest in our business, usually without a client specifically asking.  I've never had a client ask if I had a nicer studio or more luxurious coffee bar, but I have to assume they notice investment and it's appreciated.  

Will they notice 60mpx?  I don't know.

As far as this camera goes, there is a lot we've been asking for a long time that now seems to be coming.  Adjustable iso, faster shooting and a real 645 without a cardboard mask.

For me I kind of wish it didn't come with 60mpx just to get the iso and the frame size, but I guess that's progress.

I would like to know more, such as the lcd, in camera previews, in camera processing, or even in camera color, tone, wb, settings, but since I don't think this is mentioned, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.  

Same with how the variable file size works.  Does 1600 iso give you 30mpx, but no moire, or less moire, or more moire?

Is the ISO really true, or is it just a number, because from all the cameras I use I can assure you all ISO is not created equal.

Since I assume this sensor has no microlenses, will it actually have the same sensitivity as the microlense sensors on the P30+ and the P21+?

I do know that the lcd preview  of that headshot on Michael's article, doesn't look like the lcd preview I now see on any medium format back (well excepty for the blown out area around the hair).

Actually, I would like to see this moveable iso or pixel binnning or whatever it's called get retro fitted to the other phase backs.  I know they had it at one time and it wasn't mentioned much, but I assume it's a firmware/software change more than just a hardware difference.

I wouldn't mind 15.5mpx on my p30+ if it meant a true clean 800 ISO speed.

The most interesting thing about this, from the timing on how it was announced to how the annoucement is not yet complete and detailed, medium format companies seen to spend a lot of time thinking about and reacting to each other.

I would think Canon would be Phase's target, much more than hasselblad, because if Michael's numbers are correct and medium format only sells 6,000 backs a year vs. Canon's 6,000 cameras a day,  I know the market I'd target and during the time Dalsa is making these new chips, I'd be over a B+H buying box loads of Fuji point and shoots to rip the lcd's off of them.

Let's be realistic.  Medium format in the film days didn't die, or wasn't replaced by 35mm.  Medium format was knocked down in the transition to digital because there wasn't anything that mounted on those medium format cameras  that came anywhere close to  Canons in ease and price.

I know a lot of photographers that shelved thier RZ's, V's, Contax's, Bronica, (even their new H-1's) and bought a few Canons.

If I made or sold cameras I would think of how I could reclaim some of that lost market.

Regardless, this is the PR stage of camera annoucements and though Phase has a good record of putting it on the shelf working and stable, there is a lot of questions to be answered before any money really changes hands.

I must admit my Contaxs would really benefit from a full frame viewfinder and if the iso thing is true and really clean high iso, that could keep the Canons in the bag.

Then again if the adjustable iso thing only gives you up to a clean 800 (real not numbers), then it depends on how much the upgrade costs is.


JR
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pprdigital

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« Reply #115 on: July 13, 2008, 09:39:33 pm »

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Wow so $28,000 + $33,995 list of H3dII39 = about $62k for a camera system!?!? Upgrade prices have not been announced by Phase , but that seems very steep for being a valued user.
BTW H3DII-60??? Have not heard that announcement.

Lance
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Um, no Lance.

Existing H2D-39/H3D-39/H3DII-39 owners receive approximately $16,500 credit on their system towards an H3DII-50, which leaves a net purchase amount of roughly $23,500.

Hasselblad has also announced a 645 sized sensor, but the details, such as megapixel count, etc, have not yet been disclosed.

Steve Hendrix
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TMARK

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« Reply #116 on: July 13, 2008, 09:52:07 pm »

If the P65 has a raft of usability updates I'll be excited.  30 megapix full 645 really would be excellent, especially if it means a faster frame rate.  I'm happy with the P30+ ISO for the most part, but improvements are always welcome.

But not for $40k.  No way no how.  As someone said above:  lower price, more volume. This strategy will be a transformative for the MFDB industry.  The player that grabs that ring will eat into Canon's market and reap the rewards.  Fortune favors the bold, no?
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James R Russell

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« Reply #117 on: July 13, 2008, 09:55:43 pm »

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Fortune favors the bold, no?
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[a href=\"http://www.red.com/]http://www.red.com/[/url]
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hubell

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« Reply #118 on: July 13, 2008, 10:31:05 pm »

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I think I am off by about six thousand. If he new camera goes for $40K and Hasselblad allows a trad value of $18K for an H3D-39, the delta will be $22K. What do you think Phase will allow for a P45(not Plus) against a P65?
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Where's Lance????

TMARK

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« Reply #119 on: July 13, 2008, 11:05:29 pm »

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http://www.red.com/
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Get 100% of the purchase price of a Red One credited when you upgrade to the Epic.  Wow.
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