P65+

[michael]

In the days of the IBM mainframe, whenever they caught wind that a competitor was bringing out a new model IBM would issue a releases about THEIR new model with equivalent or better features. The fact that no such product yet existed didn't matter, it was all about creating fear and doubt in the minds of their customers.

Enough said.

Michael

[hubell]

In the days of the IBM mainframe, whenever they caught wind that a competitor was bringing out a new model IBM would issue a releases about THEIR new model with equivalent or better features. The fact that no such product yet existed didn't matter, it was all about creating fear and doubt in the minds of their customers.

Enough said.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208100\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The point? I think the crescendo of disappointment that has appeared here in response to the Phase and Hasselblad announcements is not due to the  fact that they have made premature announcements. It's over the fact that there is so little to be excited over in what thay have announced.  I only wish that one of the MFDB makers would prematurely announce a new 3-4" LCD with the quality of the Nikon D3 or better.

[James R Russell]

In the days of the IBM mainframe, whenever they caught wind that a competitor was bringing out a new model IBM would issue a releases about THEIR new model with equivalent or better features. The fact that no such product yet existed didn't matter, it was all about creating fear and doubt in the minds of their customers.

Enough said.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208100\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

We all know they do this and we all get sucked into it.  After all this thread will probably hit 10,000 reads before it's done.

The thing is I believe it takes validty away from the maker, as much as add a positive buzz.

Michael, you talk to the makers of this equipment a lot more than me, but in the conversations I've had with all of them asking a quesiton, like FF or lcd's, gets a response like they are giving away goverment security secrets, when it reality it's just a simple question like, "is there a way to put an external port on this camera to plug in a better lcd?".

I work in a world where I have to give direct answers, sometimes not to my benefit.

If a client asks me where a location is I have to answer Miami, not "well, you see, somewhere in the Southeast United States, though if you will write the P.O. I'll tell you.".

All of the makers suffer from a form of clairty.  It's funny, medium format does a lot of things really well, but putting out real information is not one of them.  

Real world use of cameras and backs has been boiled down to sound bites of megapixels and frame size which is somewhat of a shame because there is reasons to buy certain cameras, but rarely do those reasons get advertised or published.




JR

[mtomalty]

That T/S I WANT. July you mean like now it is available.

Is this lens a new design from Mamiya?

I have heard that it is a Hartblei product but haven't heard whether it is a new design
or whether it is a rebranded version of their Super-Rotator 45mm that Michael reviewed
a few years back.
Since that review discussed a pricepoint of around $1K the new $3K+ would hopefully
involve some improvements

MT

[TMARK]

I think the future is so bright we can't see it...even with shades on.  I doubt seriously that professional photography has decades left in it.  Like the dude in The Matrix said when the train was coming to run down Neo..."Hear that sound Mr Anderson?  That's the sound of inevitability"  No use planning for decades when you can hardly see to the next couple years.  Technology is advancing so quickly that I feel we're will no longer be needed.  CAD and the such will do us in. 

The Machines will win this one...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208085\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You said it brother.  The big picture questions have been haunting me the last year or so. I live in NYC and have a kid.  I don't want to live extravegantly. My wife is an MUA and sometimes makes good money, most of the time she stays home with baby.  I don't have enough patience to fake it for too long, so shooting flat lit Verizen ads all year would kill me, even though the cash is appreciated.  I pay health insurance for a family.  I need about $200k before taxes to support this life style.  With this in mind, I started thinking, honestly, about the future.

Can I make $200k a year for the next 30 years as a stills shooter?  No way. All of the banal questions of bit depth and chip size is inconsequential when you think about where things are going:  CAD will take over for products, video will consume much of commercial work, magazines will all but retreat online, leaving only the bottom (celebrity) and really high end mags ($25 bucks an issue, well printed, thick and full of words and pictures).  What's left for stills shooters?  The "Fine Art" market of Alec Soth wanna bes?  The high end mags?, which, if todays model is followed, will not pay for editorial? Some stills for the web, shot adjunct to video? Penny stock?  Crowd sourced shit pics? Where will the money come from, in 2018, to support a $40,000 ($60k with bodies/lenses) still camera?

The entire stills market is imploding, and what is dropped into this cauldron are more and more really expensive pieces of hardware.  These backs really are magnificent, and I'm sure there will be a small number of photographers using them in 2018, but its a dead end for most of us, no?

[carl dw]

It's not the money, or the computers.  Hell we carry 4 computers to set.

It's that depending on the room, sometimes you don't want to show the image to the world, sometimes you want to show the image to all the world.

Look . . . the previews in medium format are just awful.  We have all put up with it, all worked around it, all talked about it, all tried various ways to improve it and at $20,000 it's hard to take that the preview is that bad, but at $40,000, no way can it be accepted and the excuses are getting as little thin.

There has to be another option rather than putting a blackout  tent on location and running over every few frames to make sure you have the shot.

Also don't you find it a little silly that polaroid has been replaced by 500 lbs of comptuer, cart, generators and montiors?

Listen to those Red interviews.  to a person every one of thos acclaimed directors and cinematographers mentions how great it is NOT to have a tech running around behind the camera or to be hooked to a wire.

When I shoot tethered it's a fight for the project not to get flat flooted.  You can feel the wire, you can hear the comments and see all the buzz going to the computer rather than to the camera and the set.

I want the creative's involved, but sometimes I don't want everyone in the room making comments, because it is just an energy drain.

There should be options from Ipod type devices, all the way to huge plasma displays, but for 40 grand, there should be options.

It really isn't about the camera, we don't walk into the room because of the camera, we walk in the room to make the photograph.

The camera should be adaptable for any scenario and most importantly not get in the way.

I get a kick out of these conversations because everytime there is a new annoucement, HY6, Mamiya, Phase, Hasselblad, it's like the second coming, but when you boil it all down, you have to step back and say will this $40,000 make my photos better.

Graham, will an Hy6 make your photos better?  Will it make you more money?

And if it will when you going to buy a few?
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208083\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm in total agreement with your point of view.

But these days design is driven by marketing strategies  - not necessarily the 'dream camera' that we all hope will appear with the next upgrade.

They all give us just enough with every upgrade to (almost) justify putting our hands deeper into our pockets. They also know that in a commercial environment if we don't buy a new camera now and again.... we give the money to the tax man.

I think they could give you that screen right now.... but why should they play all the wild cards when we'll probably buy the product anyway?

For many commercial photographers $40000 is a big chunk of cash to find or finance. With the present economic climate I think the MF market is going to have to find much more tempting solutions and play those 'wild cards' to tempt us into investing.... might be a nice big clear screen on that full frame Phase after all.

And lets face it, the majority of commercial photography is done to fuel similar money extorting marketing strategies ....the irony of it.

[Joe Behar]

All of the makers suffer from a form of clairty.  It's funny, medium format does a lot of things really well, but putting out real information is not one of them. 

Real world use of cameras and backs has been boiled down to sound bites of megapixels and frame size which is somewhat of a shame because there is reasons to buy certain cameras, but rarely do those reasons get advertised or published.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208105\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

James,

This is where your dealer comes in.

Not that I want to start yet another discussion on this, because I'll be lambasted yet again but....

Earlier in this thread (or a similarly titled thread) someone mentioned the "fast, good or cheap" analogy. It seems that too many people want all three, knowing its not possible and then complain when they don't get it.

I'm not going to speak for other dealers here (although I suspect Lance will agree with me) but what everyone needs to do is find a dealer, hopefully a local one, that will take the time to answer questions, do a proper demo, provide a rental for testing and be there for support when you inevitably need it. All this does not come free, but in the long run gets you to the right decision.

I can't count the number of times I've gotten calls from owners of equipment they bought elsewhere (seems my price was a few dollars too high) in a panic because they can't figure something out or need software help, or have run into a hardware glitch in the middle of a shoot. Do I help? yes, do I do it multiple times? probably not.

If collecting facts figures, specs and test results from manufacturer sites and forums is a hobby for you, great. I wish I had the time. If you're a working pro and need straight answers and a support network (and you know very well that all working pros need one) then find that professional dealer and establish a relationship with them.

I'm probably preaching to the converted with you, but I had to get that off my chest.

[yaya]

Gidday,

All ready talking to the Phase rep in New Zealand.

Hope I get a good trade in on my Aptus 75.

Simon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Simon, say hi to Dean and while at it, invite him to compare the Live View on your Aptus 75 to his offering.

Would love to hear your opinion after that.

Thanks

Yair

[SeanBK]

............................
The entire stills market is imploding, and what is dropped into this cauldron are more and more really expensive pieces of hardware.  These backs really are magnificent, and I'm sure there will be a small number of photographers using them in 2018, but its a dead end for most of us, no?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208108\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 Not wanting to regurgitate the obvious, but deep down I believe we are hitching a ride with dinosaurs. I strongly believe Hasselblad announcement of their (Kodak) 645 & Phase (Dalsa) 645 is last ditch effort to grab, as much back buyers before D3X & Canon's 1DsMk....announcement this fall of 20MP & ...? with better ISO, better DR.   While we still begging for better LCD, that's the carrot on the stick.

[SeanBK]

Not that I want to start yet another discussion on this, because I'll be lambasted yet again but....

.....I'm not going to speak for other dealers here (although I suspect Lance will agree with me) but what everyone needs to do is find a dealer, ........All this does not come free, but in the long run gets you to the right decision.....

I can't count the number of times I've gotten calls from owners of equipment they bought elsewhere (seems my price was a few dollars too high) in a panic because they can't figure something out or need software help, or have run into a hardware glitch in the middle of a shoot. Do I help? yes, do I do it multiple times? probably not.

If collecting facts figures, specs and test results from manufacturer sites and forums is a hobby for you, great. I wish I had the time. If you're a working pro and need straight answers and a support network (and you know very well that all working pros need one) then find that professional dealer and establish a relationship with them.

I'm probably preaching to the converted with you, but I had to get that off my chest.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In other words if I buy from you Mr. Behar all my problems of LCD, DR, high ISO & longer duration will magically disappear... WOW, where do I sign up.

[snickgrr]

Is some of the future here already?

Made without cameras or lights.

http://code.google.com/creative/radiohead/

[yaya]

I cant imagine that would be the case.  wake-up architecture is not a sensor dependent issue to my knowledge, but rather a back operation architecture.  To have "instant on" you have to have the CCD on at all time and therefore require active cooling with a fan.  Phase One's system was designed to keep the CCD cool without a fan.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208076\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jordan,

You should know that Dalsa sensors don't need to "stay on" to avoid wake up architecture. It is just that they can go from OFF to ON very quickly with instant reset.
The new 50MP Kodak utilises a similar mechanism BTW.

The wake-up system is what it is...a wake up system to get the sensor flushed in ready in time for the next frame

Yair

[narikin]

The point? I think the crescendo of disappointment that has appeared here in response to the Phase and Hasselblad announcements is not due to the  fact that they have made premature announcements. It's over the fact that there is so little to be excited over in what thay have announced.  I only wish that one of the MFDB makers would prematurely announce a new 3-4" LCD with the quality of the Nikon D3 or better.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208103\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

what "crescendo of disappointment" ?!

I'm very excited about the new backs and their new technology and FF size, just sad about the price!

hopefully the upgrade price won't be so painful - Phase have always rewarded their customers for brand loyalty, and fingers crossed they will keep that policy here. It would be crazy to expect people to upgrade at $18,000, something like $8-9,000 might just fly, otherwise a lot of people will be sticking with their P45's.

[TMARK]

James,

This is where your dealer comes in.

Not that I want to start yet another discussion on this, because I'll be lambasted yet again but....

Earlier in this thread (or a similarly titled thread) someone mentioned the "fast, good or cheap" analogy. It seems that too many people want all three, knowing its not possible and then complain when they don't get it.

I'm not going to speak for other dealers here (although I suspect Lance will agree with me) but what everyone needs to do is find a dealer, hopefully a local one, that will take the time to answer questions, do a proper demo, provide a rental for testing and be there for support when you inevitably need it. All this does not come free, but in the long run gets you to the right decision.

I can't count the number of times I've gotten calls from owners of equipment they bought elsewhere (seems my price was a few dollars too high) in a panic because they can't figure something out or need software help, or have run into a hardware glitch in the middle of a shoot. Do I help? yes, do I do it multiple times? probably not.

If collecting facts figures, specs and test results from manufacturer sites and forums is a hobby for you, great. I wish I had the time. If you're a working pro and need straight answers and a support network (and you know very well that all working pros need one) then find that professional dealer and establish a relationship with them.

I'm probably preaching to the converted with you, but I had to get that off my chest.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think anyone is complaining about the dealers or any brand of back in particular.  Lance and Doug at Capture Integration have been great.  My local dealers are not so great, which is why I went with Lance.  So I don't really understand your post.

The problem with a dealer network is that not all dealers are created equal.

[dustblue]

machine can not replace imagination and creativity IMHO.
a kind of look(say jim fiscus, platon etc.) is always easy to make, and sooner or later that wont be secrets to anybody.  but the creativity is not. I can imagine one day the mfdb is even affordble to the photo amateurs, and 3ds max replaced the cars and architecture photographers, but nothing can replace imagination and creativity. so I think we better keep going further, what we should be able to do is not just take the picture.

I think the future is so bright we can't see it...even with shades on.  I doubt seriously that professional photography has decades left in it.  Like the dude in The Matrix said when the train was coming to run down Neo..."Hear that sound Mr Anderson?  That's the sound of inevitability"  No use planning for decades when you can hardly see to the next couple years.  Technology is advancing so quickly that I feel we're will no longer be needed.  CAD and the such will do us in. 

The Machines will win this one...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208085\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[TMARK]

Is some of the future here already?

Made without cameras or lights.

http://code.google.com/creative/radiohead/
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208118\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It may be happening faster than we thought possible.  Its moving forward exponentially.

[Joe Behar]

In other words if I buy from you Mr. Behar all my problems of LCD, DR, high ISO & longer duration will magically disappear... WOW, where do I sign up.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208117\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

SeanBk,

That is NOT what I said. I specifically quoted only part of Mr. Russel's post and replied to that only.

Obviously, we, as dealers cannot control what is manufactured. What we can do is give you as a potential client the insights into products that are quite often "hidden" in literature and user guides. We support you with technical knowledge, backup equipment and workflow suggestions that will help you get the most out of your digital back. All that directly translates into getting the job done more quickly and quite often, better.

Having a relationship with a reputable dealer means you get honest answers and ways to deal with some of the shortcomings that every piece of equipment has.

Whether you choose to deal with me, another dealer or no dealer at all, all I can assure you of is that you'll get exactly what you put into it.

[TMARK]

machine can not replace imagination and creativity IMHO.
a kind of look(say jim fiscus, platon etc.) is always easy to make, and sooner or later that wont be secrets to anybody.  but the creativity is not. I can imagine one day the mfdb is even affordble to the photo amateurs, and 3ds max replaced the cars and architecture photographers, but nothing can replace imagination and creativity. so I think we better keep going further, what we should be able to do is not just take the picture.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208126\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree with you but people are running these machines, people who are really illustrators who are creative and have imagination.  The promo's you have posted in the MFDB Recent Works thread are much like photoillustration, but instead of photographs layered together they could be CGI created pictoral elements.  A designer could pluck people images from RF or penny stock, even animate it for motion with all the layers.

I don't think that high end still photography will disapear, there will just be less of it, and most will be for web consumption.  In any case, the market will be much smaller than it is right now.

By the way, Platon's "look" is all lighting, as is Gill Greenberg's work.  They both shoot film, scan, and adjust some in PS, but not much.

[Joe Behar]

I don't think anyone is complaining about the dealers or any brand of back in particular.  Lance and Doug at Capture Integration have been great.  My local dealers are not so great, which is why I went with Lance.  So I don't really understand your post.

The problem with a dealer network is that not all dealers are created equal.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208124\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

TMARK,

The only point I was trying to make was that the information you and many others are trying to find is available. Its available through dealers such as Lance and myself. I consider it my responsibility to not only sell the right goods to my clients but also to make sure they have made an educated decision.

You're absolutely right, not all dealers are equal, but you as the consumer have the ability to force them to do the right thing by excercising your "wallet rights"

[dustblue]

Thanks TMark. About the recent works, I am just trying to do something interesting, and honestly those are my first attempt. I do that because my personal works are not enough for the portfolio, I just graduated from college for one year, and my major was physics,  so I really need to work harder.
Image, illustration or photography, I don't care, I just need something to show the AD, I wish those will help.
here are some of my personal works, and really I would like to shoot this kind of thing all day, if this kind of work can feed me:)
http://dejablue.blogbus.com/logs/11794062.html

about platon I guess your right, plus the use of  WA lenses. I mean technics, lightning, ps, whatever, is learnable, and though are easy to be down by machines. Maybe oneday photography is like cinema, you can find every technic in some kind of data sources.

sorry for my terrible English.

regards,
dustblue

I agree with you but people are running these machines, people who are really illustrators who are creative and have imagination.  The promo's you have posted in the MFDB Recent Works thread are much like photoillustration, but instead of photographs layered together they could be CGI created pictoral elements.  A designer could pluck people images from RF or penny stock, even animate it for motion with all the layers.

I don't think that high end still photography will disapear, there will just be less of it, and most will be for web consumption.  In any case, the market will be much smaller than it is right now.

By the way, Platon's "look" is all lighting, as is Gill Greenberg's work.  They both shoot film, scan, and adjust some in PS, but not much.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208131\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]