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Author Topic: Where To For Phase One?  (Read 85944 times)

TechTalk

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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #140 on: October 30, 2007, 10:39:46 pm »

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Here are a couple of things that Phase One will be offering:

1.  With the purchase of a 3 Year Value Added package with your DB, you will be allowed a free
     platform change within 36 months of the original purchase. 

2.  Phase One will be supporting the Hy6 concept.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
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Hi Chris
You just stated outright as a Phase One dealer that they will be supporting the Hy6. This is monumental news if it is no longer speculation but actual fact.

Are you the first one to break this news or am I maybe too busy and everyone else knows this already?

Thx

Olaf
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149594\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


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Olaf,

It was released to dealers last week that Phase One will support the Hy6.  I don't have all the details currently, but hope to know more soon.

Thank you,
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149613\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


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All I have to say is.. I told you so.  Finally someone more official then me announced it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149617\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


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thanks chris for shining some official light...finally....

this was really the only way that there would be an alternative to hasselblad...so it will be leaf, phase, sinar along with F&H and mamiya with exchangeable parts/backs/bodies (all still locked in with specific mounts of course) against hasselblad with an all in one system....
i guess that is what hasselblad wanted.....

this announcement also means good news for leaf and sinar IMO.....they can't stand up to hasselblad alone....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149645\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Take a deep breath...now exhale. I'm sure Mr. Lawery did not intend to lead you to believe that Phase One has announced that they will have a back for the Hy6. They did not say, in the memo referenced, that they will "support" the Hy6 camera. Mr. Lawery correctly stated that they now support the concept of the Hy6.

What's the difference? Well, Phase One states in the memo "Up till now, Phase One has been sceptical towards the viability of the product strategy behind the Hy6 camera". Now, however, Phase One has decided that the concept has merit and feels there is a "good basis for reaching an agreement". The memo says they have had "discussions with the new management of Jenoptik, the owner of the Hy6" and "expect we can update you again in November on this issue".

Now you can read into this whatever you like, but being "sceptical towards the viability" and now deciding to "support the Hy6 concept" is a bit short of a done deal or a product announcement.

I would save the "I told you so" for a later date. After an agreement has actually been reached, would probably be a better time to break out the party hats. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but it would be good to hear from Jenoptik before you put away the umbrellas.
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thsinar

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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #141 on: October 30, 2007, 10:47:48 pm »

Thanks, TechTalk!

Like always, you are able to discern between an official announcement and the "words" that are said.

It is definitively not up Phase to decide here.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Take a deep breath...now exhale. I'm sure Mr. Lawery did not intend to lead you to believe that Phase One has announced that they will have a back for the Hy6. They did not say, in the memo referenced, that they will "support" the Hy6 camera. Mr. Lawery correctly stated that they now support the concept of the Hy6.

What's the difference? Well, Phase One states in the memo "Up till now, Phase One has been sceptical towards the viability of the product strategy behind the Hy6 camera". Now, however, Phase One has decided that the concept has merit and feels there is a "good basis for reaching an agreement". The memo says they have had "discussions with the new management of Jenoptik, the owner of the Hy6" and "expect we can update you again in November on this issue".

Now you can read into this whatever you like, but being "sceptical towards the viability" and now deciding to "support the Hy6 concept" is a bit short of a done deal or a product announcement.

I would save the "I told you so" for a later date. After an agreement has actually been reached, would probably be a better time to break out the party hats. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but it would be good to hear from Jenoptik before you put away the umbrellas.
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TechTalk

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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #142 on: October 30, 2007, 11:04:33 pm »

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Thanks, TechTalk!

Like always, you are able to discern between an official announcement and the "words" that are said.

It is definitively not up Phase to decide here.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149709\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sometimes knowing a little bit of information gives people one perception, when a little more information would change that perception.

Just trying to keep things in perspective by being as fully accurate as possible.
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hubell

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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #143 on: October 30, 2007, 11:10:38 pm »

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Take a deep breath...now exhale. I'm sure Mr. Lawery did not intend to lead you to believe that Phase One has announced that they will have a back for the Hy6. They did not say, in the memo referenced, that they will "support" the Hy6 camera. Mr. Lawery correctly stated that they now support the concept of the Hy6.

What's the difference? Well, Phase One states in the memo "Up till now, Phase One has been sceptical towards the viability of the product strategy behind the Hy6 camera". Now, however, Phase One has decided that the concept has merit and feels there is a "good basis for reaching an agreement". The memo says they have had "discussions with the new management of Jenoptik, the owner of the Hy6" and "expect we can update you again in November on this issue".

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149708\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This seems like the most manipulative sort of corporate double speak, designed to temporarily stem the tide of people  jumping to other backs while Phase frantically searches for an actual alternative.

TechTalk

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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #144 on: October 30, 2007, 11:33:59 pm »

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steve..of course there is no real open back..or camera ....open just means that i have a choice of back with a choice of camera...maybe that back can only be used one one camera at a time (with a mount change for a fee or not) or it can be used on several cameras via adapter....that is open...

hasselblad want you to use their back with their camera....which is actually fine with me...i would not want either, but that does not mean that either is bad or worse then anything else....either way...that is not open.....
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"Open" appears to have degrees or levels. A digital back with interchangeable mounts is certainly more "open" than a back with a fixed mount. I suppose that you could call one an "open" system and the other a "closed" system.

 The Hasselblad H3D camera bodies are not "open" to any digital back except the one mated at the factory, but are "open" to older "V" series lenses. The H3D backs are "open" to be used on any view or technical camera with an "H" mount.

Every product has limitations that are inherent in the design. It's up to the individual to decide which products best fit their needs and preferences. It's up to the individual also to decide if the amount of "openess" works for them.
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pss

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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #145 on: October 30, 2007, 11:57:14 pm »

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"Open" appears to have degrees or levels. A digital back with interchangeable mounts is certainly more "open" than a back with a fixed mount. I suppose that you could call one an "open" system and the other a "closed" system.

 The Hasselblad H3D camera bodies are not "open" to any digital back except the one mated at the factory, but are "open" to older "V" series lenses. The H3D backs are "open" to be used on any view or technical camera with an "H" mount.

Every product has limitations that are inherent in the design. It's up to the individual to decide which products best fit their needs and preferences. It's up to the individual also to decide if the amount of "openess" works for them.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149712\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

you are absolutely correct...there is no open or not open...there are many levels....

as a photographer i can now decide on which back gives me the best file, the best workflow and which body i can live with....i am more or less locked into that desicion....if all three variables are provided by hasselblad, the solution is not more closed then any others.....it is just that hasselblad does not want anyone to have the choice....and from a business standpoint i understand that completely......but (and i am sure i will get crucified for making that analogy) from a businesspoint there is something to be said about childlabor or slavery...and either are (besides the obvious moral implications) nearsighted....in the long run happy workers will give you better work.....a forced move to corner the market will backfire....if hasselblad is the only one standing in 3 years i still won't buy one....canon and nikon will be shaking their heads laughing that they did not even have to come out with something out of their comfort zone to take over 95% of what used to be the MF market....they will leave the crumbs to hasselblad....i actually don't have a problem with that either....if i am forced to look through a viewfinder and hold a camera vertical that is made to shoot horizontal, i would rather have a grip on the bottom for that direction.....has anyone seen the nikon D3 viewfinder? if that camera had 16bit 22mpix (which it will have in 3 years, easily), who needs MF? 25000iso!!!.....no, i won't trade in anytime soon, but this is the real competition and hasselblads DSLR is on thin ice compared to that....
in the big picture it is in hasselblads interest that there is a MF market left! if they keep positioning themselves as DSLRs, maybe sombody will forget what MF use to be....big finders, big imagearea.....shallow DoF....if you take all this out of MF, there is nothing left and you are up against...nikon and canon...good luck....
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rethmeier

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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #146 on: October 31, 2007, 12:41:07 am »

Well said Paul!
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Steve Kerman

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« Reply #147 on: October 31, 2007, 03:21:25 am »

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It is definitively not up Phase to decide here.
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Thierry, you've expressed that sentiment many times here, and I don't understand why.  Absent a very broad, enforceable patent that completely precludes Phase from interfacing to the Hy6 (which is unlikely in light of the extensive prior art of interfacing backs and bodies), there is no way that Jenoptic can prevent Phase from making backs that work on their bodies.  Also, it is illegal per se for Jenoptic/Sinar/Leaf to attempt a "tying arrangement" such as Leaf has in their current price list to attempt to tie buying a body to already having bought a back.  See, for example, Fairchild v. Data General, where the Supreme Court slapped down Data General for doing that.  So they can't keep Phase customers from buying Hy6 bodies to use with their Phase backs.

It seems to me that it is indeed up to Phase to decide.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 03:36:33 am by Steve Kerman »
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ixpressraf

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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #148 on: October 31, 2007, 04:08:19 am »

Dear Thierry,
My  leaf aptus  back has a fixed camera mount so it will not fit to the Hy6. I never said there was no AF on the hy6, i only said that most people only have manual focus lenses and will have to buy AF lenses. Manual focussing is as we all know very critical with MFDB. But for a lot of people on the forum, as i understand, there will be no monney to buy all of that.
The 6008 was a heavy, bulky and slow system compared to the H1 at that time.
The Hy6 is a more integrated and up to date platform and i agree it will be a fine tool at a also "fine price". Photographers who do have a good bussines will simply buy into the H6 system at whatever cost when they like working with it, just as for most hasselblad users there is no problem in upgrading to the H3 platform. That is why there is not that big problem for hasselblad and probably the new Afi/Hy6: if there are enough well earning people buying the system it will be a succes. Phase on the other hand will have to come with a new camera to link there back's to. Jenoptic and leaf will only be interested in letting phase on the platform when they can not sell the heeded volume of body's and lenses and then they lose the whole point of creating the Hy6 camera: making more profits, what is at the end the only reason for doing bussines. So the Hy6 will be exactly as" closed " as is the H3 camera.( unless they fail in there bussiness plan and are forced to let others on).
Phase one is certainly creating or expressed intentions to create their own platform and this will also be known to jenoptic and hasselblad.... ( and would you as photographer let your competition use your gear to have that competition getting bigger at your expenses??????  I do not think so!).
Best regards.
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Dustbak

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« Reply #149 on: October 31, 2007, 05:19:20 am »

I partly agree with you however I find that even the photographers that make enough money not to care too much about pricing are now paying attention on how they spend their money.

I know very few that can buy whatever they need/want without being too critical on price point. Even on the very high-end clients are looking on how to save and get 'more' for the same budget. It is just doing business with reasoning.

I think the MF market is too small to have the kind of competition where parties are trying to finish each other off. IMO, it will shy away people towards parties that are more likely to survive (Nikon & Canon). Effectively shrinking the MF market even more.

BTW. Did you get an Aptus?
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Geoffrey

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« Reply #150 on: October 31, 2007, 05:46:00 am »

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Dear Thierry,
My  leaf aptus  back has a fixed camera mount so it will not fit to the Hy6. I never said there was no AF on the hy6, i only said that most people only have manual focus lenses and will have to buy AF lenses. Manual focussing is as we all know very critical with MFDB. But for a lot of people on the forum, as i understand, there will be no monney to buy all of that.
The 6008 was a heavy, bulky and slow system compared to the H1 at that time.
The Hy6 is a more integrated and up to date platform and i agree it will be a fine tool at a also "fine price". [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149740\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree with most of this, too, but please note that the dating of the 6008 vs. the H1 are quite diffrerent. I believe the 6008 came out c. 1990, and the H1 some years (10?) later. The problem with the Rollei system is that it was thoroughly engineered and considered, but too soon. They spent much $ on data backs, and scanning backs that were just way too early, and ultimately not within the present marketplace. The 6008 series is a very comprehensive integrated update of Rollei's earlier 6006 and SL66 work, that started as an alternative to the 500C Hassy.

The differences in origins matter:  Hassy has always had a better presence in the US than any Rollei SLR - Hassy's are available for rent in most major cities in the US, Rolleis not. The second hand market here is well supplied with Hassy gear - the Rollei/Schneider almost never seen in the US.

The updating moves of both companies seem almost out of step with each other - by about  5-10 years apiece. Hassy 500's to the Rollei 66, the Hassy 2000, then the Rollei 600X, back to the H1,2....3, back now to the Hy6. The difference (to me) seems that Rollei works a bit harder at certain aspects of the engineering, with more integration and perhaps a bit more demanding on the lens makers (Schneider+ Zeiss to get more variety) than Hassy did, but now Hassy is more "knit together" in their product line (Imacon) and Rollei is playing catch up.

Yes, the Hassy system is a "closed model" and the Hy6 maybe "open model" - the reality is that in the trenches (the digital back manufacturers), both these companies have backers that want to sell their backs. Also, an well worked out digital solution calls for tight knit single-source answers (alignment, sensor lenses, etc.).

Yet the marketplace of pro photographers hate being locked into one answer if they can avoid it. The cost of the backs is part of this issue - they are a huge capital investment, and require a rethink by the photographer as to their business model. Add to that buying lenses from one system, and the burden gets a bit large. If they have to change platforms in 5 years or need another system's lens (gee, who has the best shift or macro lens), they want the flexibility in their toolset, while minimizing their back investment. Who can blame them?

The new kid on the block (Hy6) raises all sorts of issues - and the predictable tensions between Phase and the Hy6 makers/backers will hopefully work its way out - the Hy6 folks will hopefully see the merit that more presence is for them (and us) a good thing, regardless of whose back is on it. That's not old world thinking, but something needed to be a player in today's market. The US is a big market, but if one has to travel to NYC to see/rent/buy a Hy6, that's not going to go over very well here. Its not just a question of having a dealer in every major town, but having a good dealer, a viable stock, and movement of product as well. More presence will be needed if this is to make it in the US. If not, well, maybe everyone gets swept away by the Canon/Nikon's of the world. After all, look what happened to GM and Ford.

At least that's one person's perspective.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #151 on: October 31, 2007, 06:41:22 am »

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Yet the marketplace of pro photographers hate being locked into one answer if they can avoid it. The cost of the backs is part of this issue - they are a huge capital investment, and require a rethink by the photographer as to their business model. Add to that buying lenses from one system, and the burden gets a bit large. If they have to change platforms in 5 years or need another system's lens (gee, who has the best shift or macro lens), they want the flexibility in their toolset, while minimizing their back investment. Who can blame them?

Which is why the Sinarbacks with their adapters make so much sense! I get the feeling that people out there still haven't seen the light.

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Its not just a question of having a dealer in every major town, but having a good dealer, a viable stock, and movement of product as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149752\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If I were Sinar/Leaf/Jenoptik, I'd be making sure that there's at least one rental outfit in each of the US's 10 largest cities (by size of photography market) to silence the critics who say that the Hy6 and lenses are not on the rental market radar. That's a small but very important task with potentially huge benefits.

For all I know this is already happening. I hope so.
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hankg

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« Reply #152 on: October 31, 2007, 07:05:24 am »

It would seem the future is in tightly integrated systems that can bring software to bear on lens correction, focus shift, lens cast and lens/back optimization. That means either closed systems or a level of inter company cooperation and standardization that is not likely to happen.

The 35mm DSLR is the likely model for future MF systems and it may be that the next generation of 35mm DSLR's will have arrived at the level that there really is no practical advantage for 99% of the work out there to using MF systems. Once resolution and dynamic range cease being differentiators what's left?
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #153 on: October 31, 2007, 07:22:32 am »

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Once resolution and dynamic range cease being differentiators what's left?
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Um... how about up to 1/1000 flash sync speed?

Ever looked through a medium format WLF? So much better for composition and manual focusing.

If the new Canon comes out with 22MP, the DOF will be narrower, and focus even more critical. I don't have enough faith in Canon AF to be able to rely on it (and some shoots require manual focus anyway), and trying to manually focus through a Canon viewfinder on a 22MP body would be almost a waste of time, imo.

How about viewfinder options? It's great to have a WLF on my Rollei which I can swap for a 45 or 90 degree prism, which can be rotated too. This way you can put the camera on the ground and still see through it, or against a back wall if you have to.

How about quality of the lenses? Medium format lenses have already proven themselves up to 39MP. Canon admitted that they will need a new improved range of lenses to handle even 22MP. From my experience of the Rollei lenses, I have no qualms about using them wide open.

How about the killer app (for some people) of adding the digital back to a view camera and getting all the movements you could want? Or merely removing the back for easy sensor cleaning?

Finally, and this is a contentious one, but there is definitely a positive psychological effect on many clients when you pull out something which is more professional and exotic looking than what they have at home.
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Dinarius

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« Reply #154 on: October 31, 2007, 08:27:52 am »

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Dinarius, if you are unsure about which platform you will use then perhaps you should consider a back with an adapter system which will let you use multiple platforms.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Which is why the Mamiya RB + Phase seems to be the way to go for me. Looking at Ebay, my RB system is worth little more than the price of a crap point and shoot digital. Incredible, but true. So, I'm stuck with it. Only problem is, the glass isn't top notch - how many times did I read that the Mamiya glass overly relied on the size of the 6x7 tranny! But, replacing two bodies and six lenses, plus extras is very costly. Also, I could use a Phase on my Sinar too.

The point about the price differential between MFDB and SLR digital is well made. In film days most of us shot medium-format film most of the time - 80%+ at a guess. Press guys at one (35mm) end and a select bunch of studio (4x5 & 10x8) guys at the other end were the exception. So, the Holy Grail for most of us is a digital equivalent to that MF film. If Canon and Nikon give it to us, then the MF digital crowd will be in trouble, in my opinion.

On the point of "openess"...........think of it this way............

Can you run Windows on your Dell, Acer, HP, IBM, Sony, Toshiba etc...computer? Oh, yes you can! And who is offering similar flexibility in the MFDB world without bothering to make the cameras themselves (just like MSF don't bother making computers)? Well, isn't it interesting that they're going into partnership together?  

[a href=\"http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2007/oct07/10-26PhaseOnePR.mspx]http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2...PhaseOnePR.mspx[/url]

Phase, it seems to me, have adopted a proven business model. If nothing else, I can sell my four year old Phase back (if I had one) to a hell of a lot more camera users than I can my Hassie or any other make.

I would dearly love 4-shot, but I can't afford it and I can't afford to replace an entire system, as I've already said.

Looks like I've made my mind up!  

D.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 08:43:08 am by Dinarius »
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Dustbak

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« Reply #155 on: October 31, 2007, 08:41:17 am »

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Which is why the Mamiya RB + Phase seems to be the way to go for me. Looking at Ebay, my RB system is worth little more than the price of a crap point and shoot digital. Incredible, but true. So, I'm stuck with it. Only problem is, the glass isn't top notch - how many times did I read that the Mamiya glass overly relied on the size of the 6x7 tranny! But, replacing two bodies and six lenses, plus extras is very costly. Also, I could use a Phase on my Sinar too.

The point about the price differential between MFDB and SLR digital is well made. In film days most of us shot medium-format film most of the time - 80%+ at a guess. Press guys at one (35mm) end and a select bunch of studio (4x5 & 10x8) guys at the other end were the exception. So, the Holy Grail for most of us is a digital equivalent to that MF film. If Canon and Nikon give it to us, then the MF digital crowd will be in trouble, in my opinion.

On the point of "openess"...........think of it this way............

Can you run Windows on your Dell, Acer, HP, IBM, Sony, Toshiba etc...computer? Oh, yes you can! And who is offering similar flexibility in the MFDB world without bothering to make the cameras themselves (just like MSF don't bother making computers)? Well, isn't it interesting that they're going into partnership together?   See the link in an earlier post of mine above.

Phase, it seems to me, have adopted a proven business model. If nothing else, I can sell my four year old Phase back (if I had one) to a hell of a lot more camera users than I can my Hassie or any other make.

I would dearly love 4-shot, but I can't afford it and I can't afford to replace an entire system, as I've already said.

Looks like I've made my mind up!   

D.
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Why not have a look at the CF line of Imacon/Hasselblad. They are being offered both second-hand as well as refurbished and do use an adapter-plate system.

They are in the same price line as the other backs but can be upgraded to 4shot in a later stage for a reasonable price.
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thsinar

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« Reply #156 on: October 31, 2007, 09:31:06 am »

Dear Steve,

I have to repeat once again what has been said so many times: no, there is nobody to prevent someone else to make an adapter to the Hy6. But the word to who is part of the Hy6 project belongs to Jenoptik, certainly not to PO. Leaf is part of this project, as well as F&H. PO is not, as communicated since long.

Many things have been said and claimed about PO "not willing first", "not having the finances for", "not this" or "not that", then all of sudden deciding to "support" this camera, whatever "support" means, all this suggesting that it is PO who has the word here. It is not so.

Pardon me, but this is all BS: there are contracts, as one can imagine, between different companies involved in this project and those contracts are and will be respected.

There is no "tying arrangement" as far as Sinar/Jenoptik are concerned: anybody can order and get a single Hy6 body separately as well as any lens and accessory for this camera system. This has been communicated since the begining.

I am, and Sinar/Jenoptik are not responsible for Leaf pricing and this should be asked/said to them directly.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Thierry, you've expressed that sentiment many times here, and I don't understand why.  Absent a very broad, enforceable patent that completely precludes Phase from interfacing to the Hy6 (which is unlikely in light of the extensive prior art of interfacing backs and bodies), there is no way that Jenoptic can prevent Phase from making backs that work on their bodies.  Also, it is illegal per se for Jenoptic/Sinar/Leaf to attempt a "tying arrangement" such as Leaf has in their current price list to attempt to tie buying a body to already having bought a back.  See, for example, Fairchild v. Data General, where the Supreme Court slapped down Data General for doing that.  So they can't keep Phase customers from buying Hy6 bodies to use with their Phase backs.

It seems to me that it is indeed up to Phase to decide.
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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #157 on: October 31, 2007, 09:58:25 am »

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Um... how about up to 1/1000 flash sync speed?

Ever looked through a medium format WLF? So much better for composition and manual focusing.

If the new Canon comes out with 22MP, the DOF will be narrower, and focus even more critical. I don't have enough faith in Canon AF to be able to rely on it (and some shoots require manual focus anyway), and trying to manually focus through a Canon viewfinder on a 22MP body would be almost a waste of time, imo.

How about viewfinder options? It's great to have a WLF on my Rollei which I can swap for a 45 or 90 degree prism, which can be rotated too. This way you can put the camera on the ground and still see through it, or against a back wall if you have to.

How about quality of the lenses? Medium format lenses have already proven themselves up to 39MP. Canon admitted that they will need a new improved range of lenses to handle even 22MP. From my experience of the Rollei lenses, I have no qualms about using them wide open.

How about the killer app (for some people) of adding the digital back to a view camera and getting all the movements you could want? Or merely removing the back for easy sensor cleaning?

Finally, and this is a contentious one, but there is definitely a positive psychological effect on many clients when you pull out something which is more professional and exotic looking than what they have at home.
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Everything you say is absolutely true. But I didn't have the current Canon offering in mind, rather what might be just around the corner and not from Canon. 35mm viewfinders have been improving after a dismal era of inattention brought on by autofocus -also not all MF systems have stellar viewfinders and leaf shutters.

I expect we might soon see some real innovation from one or 2 players in new designed for digital platforms that don't quite fit MF or 35mm classification.
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Hank Graber
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BJNY

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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #158 on: October 31, 2007, 10:05:37 am »

hankg,
Are you referring to the rumored Leica R10:

http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicaref...7/msg00146.html
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Guillermo

hankg

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« Reply #159 on: October 31, 2007, 10:37:23 am »

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hankg,
Are you referring to the rumored Leica R10:

http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicaref...7/msg00146.html
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Or the rumored dramatically different Nikon in the works. Both the Leica and Nikon are the subject of wild speculation but it's time we started seeing designs not based on the legacy of film formats in digital. We'll see if the speculation about either of these products turns out to be any more then internet hot air.
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Hank Graber
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