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Author Topic: Where To For Phase One?  (Read 89640 times)

Mike W

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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #100 on: October 28, 2007, 05:58:18 pm »

I don't know exactly who to quote, but a poster said the contax-platform would be impossible to ressurect.

Update- found the poster -> Steve Kerman
________________________________________________________________________________

(Continuing from my previous post) Then add in what we think we know:

1. I believe I saw a statement from Michael that Phase has a plan.

2. Michael has categorically stated that resurrecting Contax is not a possibility.

3. I think I saw Michael state several months ago that Phase was going to be available on the Hy6 platform.

From a practical point of view, that pretty much leaves possiblities 1, 3a, and 5. I view 5 as quite unlikely. And, not to denigrate those who really like Mamiya, but there are many folk who would view a Phase/Mamiya combination as rather like a Rolls Royce/Yugo deal to put Rolls Royce engines in Yugos.

That would seem to leave a Phase/Hy6 deal as by far the most probable.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Why is that? I mean, if it exists, and the company owning it is down the drain...why wouldn't it be possible to buy the concept and re-brand it?

Personally, I don't believe Phase would bring anonther camera to the market. But boy, would it be beneficial for the MF market.

regards

Mike
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 06:02:18 pm by Mike W »
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bradleygibson

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« Reply #101 on: October 28, 2007, 09:22:05 pm »

Graham,

I assume your skepticism is aimed at Phase...  (If not, I think if you look over my postings I've been quite careful to separate opinion and/or speculation from any factual events.  Posting this information and the source of that information should be regarded differently than simply posting baseless hearsay.)

TechTalk,

I think Hasselblad has done a good job of following through on emulating the 35mm business model, but while I fully understand the motivations, I worry about how well it will work out in the long run (there are a lot of H1 & H2 owners out there who feel burned).  I do wish for Hasselblad's success, because with more players in the market we all reap the rewards as photographers.

Phase is re-iterating their commitment to 'openness' which, if it pans out, is admirable.  Again, the word 'open' is over-used by marketers everywhere, so we'll have to wait and see if the truth lives up to the promise.  It seems to me that following the 35mm model would preclude the anything-goes mix and match world of, say, the Hasselblad-V, so I wonder if Phase is looking at things a bit differently now than they were in '05.

Asmp, David, Mike,

All good questions--I have no information on what the platform will be.  On a speculative note, some folks I have spoken with are expressing doubt it will be a Contax-based system, but again, there is nothing official or factual about this position, just some folks 'reading between the lines' as  it were.

That does leave one to wonder whose lenses will they use, etc.  I suppose all we can do is sit tight and wait to see what gets announced.

Mike,

The way it was explained to me is that the mystery camera platform is a separate deal from any Hy6 participation.  In other words, they should be on Hy6 at some point AND have a camera platform.

If true, all this choice sounds wonderful for the photographer.  Fortunately we're not being asked to wait too long...  I guess time will tell.

-Brad
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 09:28:33 pm by bradleygibson »
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hankg

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« Reply #102 on: October 28, 2007, 10:17:12 pm »

Rumor has it the next Leica R DSLR will be larger then 24x36 and very high res something in between MF and 35 (possibly fitting in a 36mm image circle) maybe it could be a vehicle for a Phase chip? How many options could Phase have for developing a camera and lens from scratch?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 10:20:56 pm by hankg »
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bradleygibson

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« Reply #103 on: October 29, 2007, 12:18:29 am »

Quote
Rumor has it the next Leica R DSLR will be larger then 24x36 and very high res something in between MF and 35 (possibly fitting in a 36mm image circle) maybe it could be a vehicle for a Phase chip? How many options could Phase have for developing a camera and lens from scratch?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149268\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Camera from scratch? Maybe they could do that...  Lens line from scratch, too?  I'm thinking "no way"...  I suspect Phase would need a Zeiss/Schneider/Rodenstock/Leica to step up and produce for them.

Could be a Leica venture--I suppose anything's possible.  I was surprised Leica was going to buy Sinar (and more surprised the deal fell through), so who knows what plans Leica had (or has) for MF?

Since it's all pure speculation at this point, I won't add any more fuel to the fire with guesses of my own.    Interesting idea though, Hank.  

-Brad
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 12:29:53 am by bradleygibson »
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TechTalk

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« Reply #104 on: October 29, 2007, 01:20:47 am »

I understand the emotional attachment that people have to the tools that they use to create art. Whether the endeavor is considered commercial illustration or fine-art, the tools are part of the creative process and to some degree become an extension of the artist. I also, therefore, understand when emotions affect our attitudes about the direction that we would like to see companies, that make those tools, take and our desires for the tools we'd like to see them produce. There are, unfortunately, some cold hard financial and business realities at work in the medium-format photography market that are simply unavoidable and just starting to be fully realized.

First, there is no longer any profit to be made selling medium-format SLR cameras to the public. There is no balance or combination of volume and price that will make them profitable to sell for any company. The simple notions that a company can either reduce prices to increase volume or raise prices to increase profit do not work for this market. The factors limiting demand and volume for medium-format cameras are not directly related to the cameras themselves. The primary factor limiting medium-format camera demand is the high cost of digital backs compared to 35mm digital SLRs.

There was a healthy medium-format camera market when film was king. In the past, the cost of a medium-format camera was thousands of dollars higher than 35mm, but the cost of using one (film and processing) was comparable. As demand for digital cameras replaced demand for film cameras, the cost for a medium-format camera was still thousands of dollars higher, but the cost of using one for digital capture added tens of thousands of dollars to the cost! Demand plummeted for medium-format and once healthy manufacturers went out of business and they all lost money at a rapid rate. This is where we are today. Hasselblad, Mamiya and Rollei are left standing in the medium-format SLR market. All have been through severe financial problems and have been sold, merged or reorganized multiple times.

If there is no longer any profit in making medium-format cameras, how will the remaining market be sustained? The answer is that the cameras left will have to be subsidized and supported by the sale of digital backs. Medium-format cameras and backs have reached a symbiotic financial and market relationship. The reality is, medium-format camera manufacturing can only be sustained by the sale of the digital backs that are connected to them–not electronically, but financially. The other half of this financial/market mutual reliance is that digital backs need cameras to connect to, in order to have a purpose and survive.

The real-world proof, of all of this, is the past and present market. Those medium-format SLR makes and models that did not also have the sale of digital backs as a source of income are gone. Those remaining are all tied financially to digital back sales of their own make or in the case of the Hy6/AFi to others. Hasselblad has already indicated that they have little or no interest in the business of selling cameras that are not mated to their digital backs. The Sinar/Rollei/Leaf Hy6/AFi would not exist without the financial support of R&D, sales, marketing and service that are provided by Jenoptik and Leaf. The maker, Franke & Heidecke, no longer has the financial resources and has positioned themselves as a contract manufacturer. Mamiya has had very severe financial losses and it remains to be seen if their late entry into the digital back/camera market can return them to a healthy financial state. The plans of Mamiya's new owner, Cosmos Scientific Systems, Inc., remain unknown. I've left out Pentax, as they are missing-in-action in the medium-format digital business and are in the process of being absorbed by Hoya.

Given the financial reality as it exists now, I would anticipate that in the future medium-format cameras will follow the trend of camera and back being designed, marketed and sold as integrated units. There is simply no financial justification to make a money losing product, unless it supports income from a profitable one.

The business of selling digital backs has not always been profitable either. You may be surprised to discover that Phase One has operated at a loss in many of the past years. The current CEO was appointed in 2001 and given the task of turning the company around. The group of banks and venture capital firms that owned Phase One wanted to groom the company to take public or sell. In 2002, Phase One diversified by becoming a software company with Capture One for Canon, Nikon and many other cameras. After years of losses, in 2003 Phase One turned a small profit. 2004 was considerably better and by 2005, the owners were actively trying to find a buyer when they could show three straight years of profit. No buyer was found and in 2006 the company was sold to four current Phase One managers (75% share) and a danish venture capital firm (25% share).

The problem facing Phase One is not their current financial position, but future direction. As a software company they are going to be hit hard in market share by Adobe and Apple. DxO will take another slice.

In digital backs, Phase One is not providing any financial incentive for a camera maker to provide them with a platform. If I have made anything clear with this lengthy post, I hope it is the business necessity that is now emerging for medium-format camera manufacture to be financially supported by the sale of digital backs. Being offended by this fact, will unfortunately not change it. You can expect that Phase One is now actively searching for a camera to be tied to not just electronically, but financially as well–for their own future prosperity. The days of medium-format cameras and digital backs that are connected electronically, but not financially, is rapidly coming to a close–not because any of these companies are uncaring, evil or have bad intentions, but to survive into the future.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 04:13:03 am by TechTalk »
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rethmeier

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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #105 on: October 29, 2007, 01:26:36 am »

Phase One made the big mistake not to taken on the offer from Jenoptic,to be part of the Hy6,or to pay for the license to produce digital ready Hy6 Phase One backs.
Maybe the money wasn't there?
I'm sure Jenoptic wasn't going to do Phase any favors as they also need to sell Sinar backs.

Anyway,
we now have 3 current systems( Hasselblad,Hy6 and Mamiya) and one non current(Contax 645)

Do we need more?

I think Phase should pay up and become part of the Hy6 family.

A lot of Phase shooters would be very happy! And we are not only talking about dentist!

Cheers,
WR.
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rethmeier

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« Reply #106 on: October 29, 2007, 01:31:01 am »

Well said! TechTalk
I think you hit the nail on the head!
WR.
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Willem Rethmeier
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thsinar

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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #107 on: October 29, 2007, 02:30:37 am »

I could not agree more, respectively that's the real state of the market.

Thanks TechTalk!

Thierry

Quote
I understand the emotional attachment that people have to the tools that they use to create art. Whether the endeavor is considered commercial illustration or fine-art, the tools are part of the creative process and to some degree become an extension of the artist. I also, therefore, understand when emotions affect our attitudes about the direction that we would like to see companies, that make those tools, take and our desires for the tools we'd like to see them produce. There are, unfortunately, some cold hard financial and business realities at work in the medium-format photography market that are simply unavoidable and just starting to be fully realized.

First, there is no longer any profit to be made selling medium-format SLR cameras to the public. There is no balance or combination of volume and price that will make them profitable to sell for any company. The simple notions that a company can either reduce prices to increase volume or raise prices to increase profit do not work for this market. The factors limiting demand and volume for medium-format cameras are not directly related to the cameras themselves. The primary factor limiting medium-format camera demand is the high cost of digital backs compared to 35mm digital SLRs.

There was a healthy medium-format camera market when film was king. In the past, the cost of medium-format cameras was thousands of dollars higher than 35mm, but the cost of using them (film and processing) was comparable. As demand for digital cameras replaced demand for film cameras, the cost for a medium-format camera was still thousands of dollars higher, but the cost of using one for digital capture added tens of thousands of dollars to the cost! Demand plummeted for medium-format and once healthy manufacturers went out of business and they all lost money at a rapid rate. This is where we are today. Hasselblad, Mamiya and Rollei are left standing in the medium-format SLR market. All have been through severe financial problems and have been sold, merged and reorganized multiple times.

If there is no longer any profit in making medium-format cameras, how will the remaining market be sustained? The answer is that the cameras left will have to be subsidized and supported by the sale of digital backs. Medium-format cameras and backs have reached a symbiotic financial and market relationship. The reality is, medium-format camera manufacturing can only be sustained by the sale of the digital backs that are connected to them. The other half of this financial/market mutual reliance is that digital backs need cameras to connect to, in order to have a purpose and survive.

The real-world proof, of all of this, is the past and present market. Those medium-format SLR makes and models that did not also have the sale of digital backs as a source of income are gone. Those remaining are all tied financially to digital back sales of their own make or in the case of the Hy6/AFi to others. Hasselblad has already indicated that they have little or no interest in the business of selling cameras that are not mated to their digital backs. The Sinar/Rollei/Leaf Hy6/AFi would not exist without the financial support of R&D, sales, marketing and service that are provided by Jenoptik and Leaf. The maker, Franke & Heidecke no longer has the financial resources and has positioned themselves as a contract manufacturer. Mamiya has had very severe financial losses and it remains to be seen if their late entry into the digital back/camera market can return them to a healthy financial state. The plans of Mamiya's new owner, Cosmos Scientific Systems, Inc., remain unknown. I've left out Pentax, as they are missing-in-action in the medium-format digital business and are in the process of being absorbed by Hoya.

Given the financial reality as it exists now, I would anticipate that in the future medium-format cameras will follow the trend of camera and back being designed, marketed and sold as integrated units. There is simply no financial justification to make a money losing product, unless it supports income from a profitable one.

The business of selling digital backs has not always been profitable either. You may be surprised to know that Phase One has operated at a loss in many years. The current CEO was appointed in 2001 and given the task of turning the company around. The group of banks and venture capital firms that owned Phase One wanted to groom the company to take public or sell. In 2002, Phase One diversified by becoming a software company with Capture One for Canon, Nikon and many other cameras. After years of losses, in 2003 Phase One turned a small profit. 2004 was considerably better and by 2005, the owners were actively trying to find a buyer when they could show three straight years of profit. No buyer was found and in 2006 the company was sold to four current Phase One managers (75% share) and a danish venture capital firm (25% share).

The problem facing Phase One is not their current financial position, but future direction. As a software company they are going to be hit hard in market share by Adobe and Apple. DxO will take another slice.

In digital backs, Phase One is not providing any financial incentive for a camera maker to provide them with a platform. If I have made anything clear with this lengthy post, I hope it is the business necessity that is now emerging for medium-format camera manufacture to be financially supported by the sale of digital backs. Being offended by this fact, will unfortunately not change it. You can expect that Phase One is now actively searching for a camera to be tied to not just electronically, but financially as well–for their own future prosperity. The days of medium-format cameras and digital backs that are connected electronically, but not financially, is rapidly coming to a close. Not because any of these companies are uncaring, evil or have bad intentions, but to survive into the future.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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TechTalk

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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #108 on: October 29, 2007, 03:09:43 am »

Quote
Well said! TechTalk
I think you hit the nail on the head!
WR.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149288\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Quote
I could not agree more, respectively that's the real state of the market.

Thanks TechTalk!

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149292\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks. I have tried to make some of these points in bits and pieces before, but they really required a longer post in order to be fully understood.

I apologize for the length of the post, but the situation is more complicated than some may realize or care to know.
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david o

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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #109 on: October 29, 2007, 03:37:27 am »

Tech
that was really interesting and pertinent.
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amsp

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« Reply #110 on: October 29, 2007, 10:44:09 am »

I still think the best thing for Phase would be to merge with Mamiya and release an AFDIII (with at least 1/400 sync and better AF). Phase has good backs but need a dedicated camera platform and Mamiya has good cameras & lenses but are lagging behind in digital backs. Sounds like a marriage made in heaven to me  
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condit79

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« Reply #111 on: October 29, 2007, 11:07:15 am »

I agree, phase would do well if Mamiya could come up with a newer camera body with a decent sync speed and better af.  It seems like mamiya isn't making an amazing back and phase has no camera.  Also, the Hy6 idea would probably work out well, but they need something to set them apart from the rest.  Them with Leica as a camera/lensmaker would be fantastic and would have many people interested.  But until we get real news, who knows.  I just hope they stick around as competition is always good, no matter how big or small the market.  For any getting worried about companies getting pushed out just because market share is small, take a look at the audiophile market.  It's small, but people still spend 40k for a new turntable even though there are cheaper alternatives that offer great sound.  It'll be interesting to see what happens to the market if Canon ever decides to jump into a real medium format system.
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Mort54

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« Reply #112 on: October 29, 2007, 11:36:02 am »

For what it's worth, when I bought my P45+/Mamiya 645 AFD II system, it was Phase who quoted me a price for the Mamiya side of the deal, not Mamiya. As far as I could tell, it was also Phase that sold me the Mamiya gear, not Mamiya (I was working thru a dealer, so some of those details are a little murky). At the time, I reached the conclusion that there was more to the Phase One/Mamiya relationship than I realized. I'm not sure if I was reading too much into this, but it's at least interesting.

All that aside, I agree with the others that Phase should have ponied up the money to get on the Hy6 platform (assuming that Jenoptic really offered it to them in good faith). I can't see Phase coming out with their own body, but who knows - stranger things have happened. And Brad's information certainly suggests that something is afoot. Leica and Phase - that would be exciting.
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Dinarius

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« Reply #113 on: October 29, 2007, 12:48:51 pm »

Edited.

Fuel to the fire.......or maybe not.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2...PhaseOnePR.mspx

D.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 01:02:10 pm by Dinarius »
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #114 on: October 29, 2007, 12:51:10 pm »

Quote
Please tell me where I can buy these for that kind of money?

Thanks.

D.
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It was a typo I meant £UK no $US I as I did explain

S
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bradleygibson

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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #115 on: October 29, 2007, 06:37:05 pm »

Techtalk,

I'm in complete agreement with what you've written.  Thanks for taking the time to express it so well!

There are two points that I would add to this perspective.

One is about *how* a company, Hasselblad, for example, might best go about moving to a "unified" (since 'closed' and 'bundled' are negatively loaded terms) selling model.  My only concern with Hassy's approach is that they may alienate enough of their existing customer base to cause a problem for themselves going forward.  (For the record, I am not in that camp.)  In business, existing customers are an incredibly important asset--I just hope Hassy hasn't alienated too many of theirs.

As for this approach itself, we're definitely on the same page--the unified selling approach makes perfect business sense in the new digital world, particularly for Hassy, with their history as a leader in MF camera body sales.

The other perspective I'd like to add is that Phase's approach is (apparently) different.  Perhaps they are making a mistake?   Or perhaps not...

Hasselblad's approach does make sense for a MF *camera* maker.  Hasselblad is approaching the digital world with a strong position in camera sales.  Phase, on the other hand, doesn't even make a camera, but is (reportedly) #1 in digital back sales.  With this in mind, I think continuing to pursue the 'mix and match' philosophy also makes sense, particularly if the company in question, like Phase is a *back* manufacturer, in the business of selling high-margin backs instead of (relatively) low-margin cameras.

If I were Phase, I'd want any medium format shooter, on any camera platform to have the ability to buy my back.  To some, the message "buy our back and use it anywhere (except where *those* mean folks won't let you)" might be a compelling one.

So in the end, I can't fault for blame any of the three major players (Hasselblad, Jenoptik/Sinar or Phase) for the directions they're taking.  They all do seem to be rational and to make good business sense.  Personally I feel it's really about effectively communicating the 'openness' or 'closedness' of a system before the purchase so that customers understand the landscape and aren't surprised and disapointed when the next-generation models come out.

Thanks again for the thought-provoking post.

Best regards,
Brad
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 06:45:31 pm by bradleygibson »
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condit79

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Where To For Phase One?
« Reply #116 on: October 29, 2007, 07:10:00 pm »

Quote
I think they already have that descerning factor in the use of Schneider and Zeiss lenses, while a new line of F&H own lenses is under development. Three German lens brands on one very modern MF camera does look quite attractive to me. So far Leica has not proved to be able to make glass for MF use. Not that I would object if they did make lenses for the Hy6. It would mean all the world's jewels on one crown.


My point about being set apart is being set apart from leaf and sinar who currently are involved with the Hy6 platform, not that the Hy6 platform needs something else.
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clawery

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« Reply #117 on: October 30, 2007, 11:54:42 am »

Here are a couple of things that Phase One will be offering:

1.  With the purchase of a 3 Year Value Added package with your DB, you will be allowed a free
     platform change within 36 months of the original purchase.  

2.  Phase One will be supporting the Hy6 concept.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
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mtomalty

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« Reply #118 on: October 30, 2007, 12:18:12 pm »

Chris

Any idea what a 3 year Value Added package will sell for?

Thanks,
Mark
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Sean H

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« Reply #119 on: October 30, 2007, 12:30:07 pm »

Quote
I understand the emotional attachment that people have to the tools that they use to create art. ....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tech - that was an incredible piece of analysis you wrote; something we can't get anywhere else. It was very cogent. Great job. I am glad that you are around to keep us so well informed. And thanks for taking the time to write such a lengthy text. I guess as someone else said, these are now interesting times for DMF manufacturers and purchasers. You would make a good therapist.

Sean

PS - Love your occasional bouts of meowing, hissing and clawing
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