Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Gary Ferguson on October 14, 2007, 11:15:18 am
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What's the future hold for Phase One?
I've no idea how many Pxx's ended up on the back of Hasselblad H cameras, but that door closing must hurt. And what rabbits can they possibly pull from hats to keep the upgrade cycle rolling? The IQ gap between MF digital and 35mm digital seems to be narrowing, but the price gap is as wide as ever. Plus their Capture One software doesn't seem to enjoy quite the gold standard reputation it once did, Hasselblad are beta testing a new raw converter and I believe their latest backs have gone the same heat sink/no fan route that used to be a unique advantage for Phase One.
As the owner of a P45+ I've a vested interest in their continued survival, but it's difficult to see many glad tidings for Phase One at the moment.
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Yeah, I have a P45, and have no worries about that fact, but I do think that if Phase aren't panicking right about.....now......... Then they have plans either to tie in with others, or develop their own platform.
I wonder if they dropped the price of their 22Mpixel backs would there be a whole swathe of new MF photographers?
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Hi
I really think they will be working more closely with Mamiya. Imagine Phase getting involved with the ZD camera for the next model.
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I've no idea how many Pxx's ended up on the back of Hasselblad H cameras, but that door closing must hurt.
My poor friend Freddy bought a P30 to put on his Mamiya RZ67. He later changed his mind and decided to go for an H1. He had to pay 30,000 SEK ($4,630) just to change mount on the P30 after just 6 months. Now another 6 months later he feels he has to get the H3DII so that he won't be locked out in future. (He's also tempted by the H3D's large new LCD screen over the P30's). His dealer just quoted him 100,000 SEK for the swap ($15,400). Ouch. I urged him to take a look at the Hy6 before making such a big decision.
And what rabbits can they possibly pull from hats to keep the upgrade cycle rolling?
Higher capture rate and better high ISO performance.
The IQ gap between MF digital and 35mm digital seems to be narrowing, but the price gap is as wide as ever.
Have you checked prices of refurbished Sinar e22s or Phase P25s? I expect they are not a whole lot higher than the Canon 1DsMkIII will be and I'm willing to bet that even at the same resolution of 22MP the MFDB's files will be better.
Perhaps you forget that for some types of work the MFDB has several advantages. You can use the back on a view camera which is a killer app for some types of work. The viewfinders are so much better to work with. The lenses are generally top notch with much better build quality (this is a big deal!) The ratio of 4:3 is preferred by many (myself included). Sensor cleaning is easier, etc.
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Hi
I really think they will be working more closely with Mamiya. Imagine Phase getting involved with the ZD camera for the next model.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145886\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mamiya is also in the business of selling backs, so I would not be surprised if the next Mamiya were somehow locked the same way the Hasselblad is. Or an integrated unit like the ZD camera. The Mamiya platform is also limited by the slow flash sync. I don't see this as a promising path for Phase.
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I supose PhaseOne will develop the back for the next ADF and they'll make a new closed system. The ZD will disapear. Mamiya-PhaseOne like Hasselblad-Imacon. Just an opinion
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I supose PhaseOne will develop the back for the next ADF and they'll make a new closed system. The ZD will disapear. Mamiya-PhaseOne like Hasselblad-Imacon. Just an opinion
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145904\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There was big money from Fuji for the purchase and link up between Hasselblad and Imacon. I don't see Mamiya or Phase One big enough to buy out the other, without a significant injection of outside money.
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There was big money from Fuji for the purchase and link up between Hasselblad and Imacon. I don't see Mamiya or Phase One big enough to buy out the other, without a significant injection of outside money.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145908\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
that's true about money, but necessity makes for strange bedfellows and strange relationships: cooperative develoment does not necessarily mean one has to buy the other.
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A merger of (almost) equals is also a possibility.
Anyway if 2 parties want to get together there are many different ways to get there.
Financing is a very interesting area of expertise. People with a bit of creativity in this area can make the previously considered impossible happen.
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Hi
Imagine Phase getting involved with the ZD camera for the next model.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145886\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would love to see that and it could probably be done fast/Matter of Mutual-Agreement!
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Here's another reason why I'm sceptical of a Phase/Mamiya future: that combination has already been on the market for years. Every who wants to use a Phase back on a Mamiya 645 is already doing so! But for whatever reason the majority of Phase customers chose another camera platform. That doesn't bode well for Phase's future if they are ONLY compatible with the M645.
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Whatever happened to the purported Phase/Rollie cooperation that was being discussed on the "H'blad drops the other shoe..." thread? Did we determine that that news was in error?
(Edited to make it less accusatory.)
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Whatever happened to the purported Phase/Rollie cooperation that was being discussed on the "H'blad drops the other shoe..." thread? Did we determine that that news was posted by a prankster?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145932\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
iirc, he predicted that evidence would appear at trade show this coming week, so we'll soon know either way.
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There was big money from Fuji for the purchase and link up between Hasselblad and Imacon. I don't see Mamiya or Phase One big enough to buy out the other, without a significant injection of outside money.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145908\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Interesting that you say Fuji was involved in the merger of Hasselblad and Imacon. I've searched and can't find any reference to any Fuji investment. Can you supply a link or source for this? Thanks in advance for any reference you can supply as I'm interested in the business aspects as well as the technology.
As far as the financial resources required for Phase One to merge with Mamiya, the camera/optical division of Mamiya was sold last year to an IT company in Japan for less than one million dollars in cash (plus transfer of an undisclosed amount of debt).
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I've heard rumors (from a very reliable source) that Phase One is currently working on putting out their own camera system. If true, this would be awesome.
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I've heard rumors (from a very reliable source) that Phase One is currently working on putting out their own camera system. If true, this would be awesome.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145942\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Which lens mount would it use? I can't believe they would bring out an entire new system with at least 6 new lenses which everyone would have to buy new. Crazy.
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I've heard rumors (from a very reliable source) that Phase One is currently working on putting out their own camera system. If true, this would be awesome.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145942\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'd really like to see that happen!!
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They will probably be putting the contax 645 back on the map. Carl zeiss is cut-off to a channal for selling their fine lenses, but still own the Contax 645 brand and designes.
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They will probably be putting the contax 645 back on the map. Carl zeiss is cut-off to a channal for selling their fine lenses, but still own the Contax 645 brand and designes.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145956\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That would be a dream!
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afaik phase is still selling more backs then anyone else....of course a good amount has been as H mounts....somehow i cannot imagine that this has hit phase completely by surprise....a "secret" collaboration with rollei/F&H would be the best "revenge.....i just don't see everybody who has made a desicion to buy a phase back will now just say: "well, i guess it is the H3D for me then"....especially if they were just screwed by hasselblad after just buying a H2 (and a P45 or whatever)....
unless mamiya comes out with a completely new camera, (could be the same mount, to keep it in line ith 645afd and RZ), i don't see that phase would go exclusive with mamiya....the lens/shutter/sync issue still remains....
Hy6 is the only logical solution...and as the biggest player in the back market, i can't see why rollei/F&H would NOT want phase with them.....leaf and sinar can sell a lot of bodies, but with phase n board, those sales would double or triple, especially after the H announcement.....and this system has it all....latest technology, to a certain extent even proven technology (it is a step up from the 6008AF), the best lenses in the market with the widest range of lenses (compared to any system) and the biggest system (X-Act,....).....also to consider: rollei/F&H will make more money on selling the rollei Hy6....i am sure sinar and leaf get their bodies (more or less) for free in order to sell lenses....
anyone who bought a back made (in a way) 2 commitments...one to the back and one to the camera....we will see which one holds up....again: the hasselblad camera buyers just got seriously burned.....so i am not sure how they feel about another commitment....
for the rental market: i am sure that THE most rented combo in the US is H with a phase back....this won't change..the rental houses will ride their H1/2s into the ground.....and photographers and ADs(!!!!) will still demand a phase back.....
or phase just rolls over and dies.....
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They will probably be putting the contax 645 back on the map. Carl zeiss is cut-off to a channal for selling their fine lenses, but still own the Contax 645 brand and designes.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145956\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
the contax has the same issues mamiya has (and many more)...sync speed....any new MF system must have in lens shutters....
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Interesting that you say Fuji was involved in the merger of Hasselblad and Imacon. I've searched and can't find any reference to any Fuji investment. Can you supply a link or source for this? Thanks in advance for any reference you can supply as I'm interested in the business aspects as well as the technology.
As far as the financial resources required for Phase One to merge with Mamiya, the camera/optical division of Mamiya was sold last year to an IT company in Japan for less than one million dollars in cash (plus transfer of an undisclosed amount of debt).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145935\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
fuji builds the hasselblad lenses (as a hasselblad employee you should know that)
many big business deals are done that way...companies sell and buy others for 1$ (nominal fees)...does not mean you can walk in and buy it for 2....
i don't know the numbers, but the RB/RZ was THE system a couple of years ago.....i know a lot of commercial photographers and most of them have owned that system and most of them still do.... nothing better then to find out that those "old" (still amazing!) lenses can work on a back, and it might save you a bundle!.....
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there is also the issue of sensor size.....kodak builds both hasselblads and phases sensors (and btw owns leaf....so if someone is putting on the screws in the market, kodak has something to say as well...) and we know that the next generation chips are around the corner....more resolution, higher asa, faster....BIGGER?
all kodak and dalsa have to do is make the chips bigger and the H3D is old news again....and everybody who bought it has to abandon and go with the (inevitable) H4D....and of course new lenses....
these sensor would make the Hy6 and the RZ even more valuable...
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it all comes down to investment money. As I understand (from Lance Shad a year ago) Phase and Zeiss had some good discussion on taking Contax back out in mkt but that Kyocera had put a high price on the Contax line machinery. Maybe if Some central european gp GE CZ etc could gear up, the designs are not that complex.
With modern CAD and such the lenses woulkd be tricky however. There are some Zeiss Hartblei designs that have great glass, so who knows, lots of possibilities.
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Does someone on this forum really think the Hy6 will be the ultimate camera system, or even better than the H system? At this moment it is only thin air with a silver lining from a marketing machinery.
The moment peolple have to start paying real monny for it, a lot of " so-called" buyers will suddenly encounter other necesseties that need their monney first. It is not because this is a bit of an anti hassie forum that in the real world all people will react the same way. At this moment most photographers in MF are working HassieH and a large amount with Hassie backs as well. It has proven that it is a solid system over the past years ( yes there where problems but everyone seems to have forgotten the misery with the rollei 6000 camera's, and i know because i have had several).
It is not that easy to put a camera in the market and even for the Hy6 or Afi the battle isn't won....yet.
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I think it's a pretty safe bet that Phase has some kind of plan for the future, it's not like the biggest player in digital backs is just going to throw in the towel and walk away. I just wish they were more communicative with their customers about it. Personally I'd like to see a co-operation with Mamiya and the development of an AFDIII. Also, a new line of AF leaf shutter lenses would be VERY nice. Other than the slow sync my AFD is a champ that never lets me down.
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anyone who bought a back made (in a way) 2 commitments...one to the back and one to the camera....
Except those of us who have back with an adapter system. A Sinar/H2 user can now dump the H2 on ebay and get a Hy6 instead, keeping his old back.
This independence is what really got me looking hard at Sinar in the first place. Everyone should consider the implications.
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the contax has the same issues mamiya has (and many more)...sync speed....any new MF system must have in lens shutters....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145961\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
True
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it all comes down to investment money. As I understand (from Lance Shad a year ago) Phase and Zeiss had some good discussion on taking Contax back out in mkt but that Kyocera had put a high price on the Contax line machinery.
I heard that Kyocera held the sole rights to manufacture under the Contax brand, so no-one else can make anything. It's not a matter of production cost.
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Except those of us who have back with an adapter system. A Sinar/H2 user can now dump the H2 on ebay and get a Hy6 instead, keeping his old back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145985\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Except those who need wideangle ..
More likely to buy a spare H2 and hope for the best
Anyway this H2F or whatever it is called, just needs a synch cable
unpleasant - but it would not be impossible to make one that was rigid and moulded to the profile of the camera/back a bit like 'camera armour' with a lead in it
S
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everyone seems to have forgotten the misery with the rollei 6000 camera's, and i know because i have had several).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145974\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Which misery are you talking about????
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Does someone on this forum really think the Hy6 will be the ultimate camera system, or even better than the H system? At this moment it is only thin air with a silver lining from a marketing machinery.
You must have missed Thierry's post last week. The first units have been shipped already. It's not thin air.
It may not be the ultimate camera system, but it has faster flash sync than the Hasselblad, and rumours suggest faster AF too. Plus you can use a WLF in either portrait or landscape mode, or change orientation easily while the camera is on the tripod. Some prefer the lenses too, but I accept that's a matter of personal taste. As are ergonomics.
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... the Hy6 ... At this moment it is only thin air [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145974\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I did handle a Sinar Hy6. Great camera so far...don't know what you're talking about?!
Warm regards
Heinrich
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unpleasant - but it would not be impossible to make one that was rigid and moulded to the profile of the camera/back a bit like 'camera armour' with a lead in it
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145992\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, but a sync cable means no EXIF data and no communication between camera and back. So you need to remember to change iso settings on both every time, for example. Yes it will work but it's far from elegant. I am in the same situation presently with my Rollei 6008AF/e22 - one of the reasons I look forward to upgrading to a Hy6 when I can.
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everyone seems to have forgotten the misery with the rollei 6000 camera's
What misery? It's my current workhorse.
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Interesting that you say Fuji was involved in the merger of Hasselblad and Imacon. I've searched and can't find any reference to any Fuji investment. Can you supply a link or source for this? Thanks in advance for any reference you can supply as I'm interested in the business aspects as well as the technology.
As far as the financial resources required for Phase One to merge with Mamiya, the camera/optical division of Mamiya was sold last year to an IT company in Japan for less than one million dollars in cash (plus transfer of an undisclosed amount of debt).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145935\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No sorry.
Based on speculation at the time, that there was communication between those 3 companies for some time and an agreed strategy on a range of matters. While just speculation, it might just fit what has happened!
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fuji builds the hasselblad lenses (as a hasselblad employee you should know that)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145965\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In what way does subcontracting optical manufacturing and assembly to Fuji for lenses and shutters, designed by Hasselblad, make them an investor in a merger? I'm sure you were trying to make a point, but I'm not able to find it.
I don't work for Hasselblad and never have. I do have an interest in the technology and business of photography. What does not interest me are snap judgements, emotional rants or misinformation–but then that wouldn't interest you either... would it?
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No sorry.
Based on speculation at the time, that there was communication between those 3 companies for some time and an agreed strategy on a range of matters. While just speculation, it might just fit what has happened!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146001\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for the honest reply. Speculation is what I was suspecting.
The real story is simple. The parent company of Hasselblad (Shiro Group) had a money losing company and speculated that buying Imacon and merging it with Hasselblad would make both companies stronger and Hasselblad profitable again. That speculation turned out to be true.
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Hi
I don't think Mamiya & Phase have to merge. But they could do package deals, If you bought a P45+
you get a 645 AFDII body plus a discounted lens. I still think if Phase got behind the ZD camera, ie version II which an improved buffer, bigger sensor, 3" screen, they would not have to do much to bring this camera to a new level. The camera is already built. Plus Mamiya have a great range of lenses from the 28 to 300 with 3 zooms.
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many big business deals are done that way...companies sell and buy others for 1$ (nominal fees)...does not mean you can walk in and buy it for 2....
i don't know the numbers, but the RB/RZ was THE system a couple of years ago.....i know a lot of commercial photographers and most of them have owned that system and most of them still do.... nothing better then to find out that those "old" (still amazing!) lenses can work on a back, and it might save you a bundle!.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145965\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm guessing that you read the part where I stated "plus transfer of an undisclosed amount of debt". I can't really tell.
Yes, it is not unusual in the business world that a company (like Mamiya's camera/optical division) that has been losing money and racking up debt for a long time is purchased for very little cash along with the transfer of debt. It is a path for a small company to expand with little cash outlay, provided they think the company acquired can be turned around and generate enough income to cover the debt.
Every business also has a break-even point. Below a certain volume of sales, you lose money. Above a certain volume of sales you make money. The problem with medium-format camera sales is there is not enough volume for any company to make the break-even point. The only way to survive is to combine that activity with something else, that when combined will make money (Hasselblad). Otherwise you stop production (Bronica, Contax, Fuji), stay afloat with other activities that supply needed capital (Mamiya, Rollei) or find partners to invest capital that keep you breathing (Mamiya, Rollei). It's basic financial reality and a business can only lose money for so long before creditors or a corporate board gives it a dose of reality.
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It think it is funny watching this speculation going around and around in circles.
When you think about it, there are really just a handful of enumerable possibilities. In order of what appears to me to be the most desirable to the least desirable courses of action, these possibilities are:
1. Phase in one way or another gets on board the Hy6 platform.
2. Phase resurrects Contax.
3a. Phase does a deal with Mamiya.
3b. Phase resurrects Bronica.
4. Phase does a deal with Pentax.
5. Phase develops their own camera, possibly in conjunction with Zeiss or some other lens maker.
6. Phase rolls over and dies.
That's pretty much an exhaustive list of the possibilities.
Take you pick.
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I've heard rumors (from a very reliable source) that Phase One is currently working on putting out their own camera system. If true, this would be awesome.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145942\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'd really like to see that happen!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145950\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Would it be a good, true-hearted and kind-spirited open system that takes any digital back?
Or an evil and mean closed system?
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(Continuing from my previous post) Then add in what we think we know:
1. I believe I saw a statement from Michael that Phase has a plan.
2. Michael has categorically stated that resurrecting Contax is not a possibility.
3. I think I saw Michael state several months ago that Phase was going to be available on the Hy6 platform.
From a practical point of view, that pretty much leaves possiblities 1, 3a, and 5. I view 5 as quite unlikely. And, not to denigrate those who really like Mamiya, but there are many folk who would view a Phase/Mamiya combination as rather like a Rolls Royce/Yugo deal to put Rolls Royce engines in Yugos.
That would seem to leave a Phase/Hy6 deal as by far the most probable.
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Add #7:
7) Phase reverse engineers the firmware that communicates with the back for the H2F, and offers modded H2s to their customers
It think it is funny watching this speculation going around and around in circles.
When you think about it, there are really just a handful of enumerable possibilities. In order of what appears to me to be the most desirable to the least desirable courses of action, these possibilities are:
1. Phase in one way or another gets on board the Hy6 platform.
2. Phase resurrects Contax.
3a. Phase does a deal with Mamiya.
3b. Phase resurrects Bronica.
4. Phase does a deal with Pentax.
5. Phase develops their own camera, possibly in conjunction with Zeiss or some other lens maker.
6. Phase rolls over and dies.
That's pretty much an exhaustive list of the possibilities.
Take you pick.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146016\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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i am sure sinar and leaf get their bodies (more or less) for free in order to sell lenses....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145960\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Anyone from Leaf or Sinar want to comment on the free (more or less) bodies that you're getting from Franke & Heidecke? Some one here is "sure" this is the case. We don't think anyone here would just engage in wild speculation and post it as fact, do we?
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The IT company is named Cosmo, and the undisclosed amount of debt lies higher than the purchase price. In Japan such information, as well as all information about any company (turnover, debt, employees, financial situation, solvability, etc ...) can be obtained by making an official demand to a special governement agency.
Thierry
As far as the financial resources required for Phase One to merge with Mamiya, the camera/optical division of Mamiya was sold last year to an IT company in Japan for less than one million dollars in cash (plus transfer of an undisclosed amount of debt).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145935\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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No, we don't!
As a matter of fact, without more precisions, this is simply not true, respectively impossible.
Best regards,
Thierry
Anyone from Leaf or Sinar want to comment on the free (more or less) bodies that you're getting from Franke & Heidecke? Some one here is "sure" this is the case. We don't think anyone here would just engage in wild speculation and post it as fact, do we?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146025\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hi
I don't think Mamiya & Phase have to merge. But they could do package deals, If you bought a P45+
you get a 645 AFDII body plus a discounted lens. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146012\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That is similar to what I got and I only purchased 'baby-Phase' P20+
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No, we don't!
As a matter of fact, without more precisions, this is simply not true, respectively impossible.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146028\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry Thierry, but I just can't resist flushing out wild statements like this. I thought you should shine a little light of truth on this in case some poor fool actually believed it!
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The IT company is named Cosmo, and the undisclosed amount of debt lies higher than the purchase price. In Japan such information, as well as all information about any company (turnover, debt, employees, financial situation, solvability, etc ...) can be obtained by making an official demand to a special governement agency.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146026\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, Mamiya was required to disclose a fair amount in their public statement at the time of the sale to Cosmo. The financials were not pretty. In the last fiscal year before the sale, just under 18 million dollars (U.S.) in sales and a net loss of just under 7 million dollars.
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(Continuing from my previous post) Then add in what we think we know:
1. I believe I saw a statement from Michael that Phase has a plan.
2. Michael has categorically stated that resurrecting Contax is not a possibility.
3. I think I saw Michael state several months ago that Phase was going to be available on the Hy6 platform.
From a practical point of view, that pretty much leaves possiblities 1, 3a, and 5. I view 5 as quite unlikely. And, not to denigrate those who really like Mamiya, but there are many folk who would view a Phase/Mamiya combination as rather like a Rolls Royce/Yugo deal to put Rolls Royce engines in Yugos.
That would seem to leave a Phase/Hy6 deal as by far the most probable.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=146020\")
Michael said "Finally, Phase has announced a partnering with Mamiya. Discussions are still ongoing, but the intention is that Phase One's technology will be used in upcoming Mamiya digital camera projects." Hey, "Announced a partnering" is what was reported here folks.
Check the Sept. 26, 2006 entry here... [a href=\"http://www.llvj.com/new/new-2006.shtml]Phase One Announcement Link[/url]
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Nothing to be sorry, I would have rectified by my own in any case.
Thierry
Sorry Thierry, but I just can't resist flushing out wild statements like this. I thought you should shine a little light of truth on this in case some poor fool actually believed it!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146034\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Pretty close to the net debt, once exisiting stock has been accounted for.
Thierry
Yes, Mamiya was required to disclose a fair amount in their public statement at the time of the sale to Cosmo. The financials were not pretty. In the last fiscal year before the sale, just under 18 million dollars (U.S.) in sales and a net loss of just under 7 million dollars.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146036\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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PHASE WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR THE ROLLEI HY6!
There are no questions about this. It is a fact. Phase is not worried about anything, nor will it start manufacturing camera's, IMO
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PHASE WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR THE ROLLEI HY6!
There are no questions about this. It is a fact. Phase is not worried about anything, nor will it start manufacturing camera's, IMO
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146047\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If I don't ask it then someone else will: your source?
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Yes, I couldn't agree more.
Thierry
Every business also has a break-even point. Below a certain volume of sales, you lose money. Above a certain volume of sales you make money. The problem with medium-format camera sales is there is not enough volume for any company to make the break-even point. The only way to survive is to combine that activity with something else, that when combined will make money (Hasselblad). Otherwise you stop production (Bronica, Contax, Fuji), stay afloat with other activities that supply needed capital (Mamiya, Rollei) or find partners to invest capital that keep you breathing (Mamiya, Rollei). It's basic financial reality and a business can only lose money for so long before creditors or a corporate board gives it a dose of reality.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146015\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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What's the future hold for Phase One?
I've no idea how many Pxx's ended up on the back of Hasselblad H cameras, but that door closing must hurt. And what rabbits can they possibly pull from hats to keep the upgrade cycle rolling? The IQ gap between MF digital and 35mm digital seems to be narrowing, but the price gap is as wide as ever. Plus their Capture One software doesn't seem to enjoy quite the gold standard reputation it once did, Hasselblad are beta testing a new raw converter and I believe their latest backs have gone the same heat sink/no fan route that used to be a unique advantage for Phase One.
As the owner of a P45+ I've a vested interest in their continued survival, but it's difficult to see many glad tidings for Phase One at the moment.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145879\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I guess that the MFDB market has never been very stable, but right now appears to be a clear peak in instability.
Regardless of the fact that I am not really shopping for new high end gear right now, I would probably wait at least half a year even if I were. The questions I would like to get answers to are:
1. Will the Hy6 be usable with Phase backs or not?
2. What will the next generation sensors look like? I personnally feel that there will never be a real need for more performance than these backs will deliver, since they will probably be on par with 4x5 at higher ISOs,
3. Will mamiya release a ZD33 back with the Dalsa 33 MP sensor equipping the Leaf 75? Considering the position Dalsa is in with Leaf likely to go Kodak next, and Sinar only shipping small volumes, I'd think they would be willing to work with Mamiya,
4. Will Nikon release a new high end camera to match their newly released super digital wide zooms (14-24 and 24-70). The 1ds3 doesn't impress me image quality wise (mostly for lens related reasons and Canon's strong AA filter philosophy) but Nikon could IMHO significantly close the gap with 30MP class MFDB,
5. Will Pentax proceed with the 31 MP 645D?
All in all, I'll probably have to wait until next year's Kina to get satisfactory answers to these questions... so I'll wait one year.
Regards,
Bernard
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... so I'll wait one year.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146058\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
so thats a year being annoyed whater annoyance drives your desire to upgrade
buying a p25 and h2 for $10k now and selling for $7k in a year or two aint a bad thing
Hey - H2 s might go UP in value
S
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so thats a year being annoyed whater annoyance drives your desire to upgrade
buying a p25 and h2 for $10k now and selling for $7k in a year or two aint a bad thing
Hey - H2 s might go UP in value
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146061\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yep, but I already have a Mamiya ZD that works perfectly fine for me in 90% of cases.
Besides, I don't believe that a H2 + P25 can be bought for 10K$... at least I have never seen such deals anywhere. The 25 alone typically go for at least 12K$.
Regards,
Bernard
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Yep, but I already have a Mamiya ZD that works perfectly fine for me in 90% of cases.
Besides, I don't believe that a H2 + P25 can be bought for 10K$... at least I have never seen such deals anywhere. The 25 alone typically go for at least 12K$.
Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146064\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
price wise I was painting with a broad brush probably more akin to £(UK)
S
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Moving forward the posturing and maneuvering by the various manufacturers is only going to breed increased competition which leads to better technology, more innovation and more robust software. If Hasselblad's moves weren't seen as inevitable, we likely wouldn't have seen the price point release of the Mamiya ZD nor the Hy6. Add in the market share leader in PhaseOne appearing to be left alone on an island and it's a certainty they will either find a partner to create yet another platform, reverse engineer their way onto an emerging one or make a back room deal to find distribution onto the latest platform entering the market.
Not for a second do I believe that PhaseOne is going to die on the vine as each time the market reaches points of uncertainty, they roll through with masterful marketing and enough innovation to hold their place as a market share leader. Hasselblad's maneuvers gives them the opportunity to make some technical strides on their platform while also finding out where their customers loyalties lie, be it the back or the body they're mounting it on. Both Leaf and Sinar have the opportunity to capitalize on a new camera platform while both have the muscle of being funded by companies whose market cap is in the billions.
In the end very little has changed and what we are left with is a more vibrant market. Nobody has a foot in the grave, nobody goes away and the worst case scenario is that one of the companies has a different sign hanging over their door 5 years from now. There isn't the first reason for any of these companies to bury their head in the sand while approaching the challenges ahead with zeal, enthusiasm and technical advancements that will produce the new winners moving into the future.
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No, I can't. I guess I have just heard a lot of rumors from good sources, and I strongly feel like they are true. So take it for what it is. Time will tell, and I think that amount of time will not be too long.
. Can you confirm this John-Paul?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146056\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hi
The Hy6 is a SINAR project & they (SINAR) want to improve market share. Do you believe that Phase will be part of the Hy6, I sure don't. I still think Phase can work with Mamiya & personally I think Phase has the upper hand here. Also I don't see Leaf going to Kodax chips they are too slow. The new Aptus 545s shoots at 9/10th/sec. Sinar also uses Dalsa & they are very fast. If Phase could get behind the ZD camera & put there technology into it with Mamiyas camera building, I think you would have a hell of a good DSLR. Looking at the Hy6 this camera looks to be a real winner.
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Hi
The Hy6 is a SINAR project & they (SINAR) want to improve market share. Do you believe that Phase will be part of the Hy6, I sure don't. I still think Phase can work with Mamiya & personally I think Phase has the upper hand here. Also I don't see Leaf going to Kodax chips they are too slow. The new Aptus 545s shoots at 9/10th/sec. Sinar also uses Dalsa & they are very fast. If Phase could get behind the ZD camera & put there technology into it with Mamiyas camera building, I think you would have a hell of a good DSLR. Looking at the Hy6 this camera looks to be a real winner.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146079\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
McFoto,
I believe Phase will be on board the Hy6 one way or another as John said. Having worked for Sinar and on the supplier side of this business for a number of years I have a number of dealers telling me Phase is promising a complete camera solution 1st quarter. I have also been assured that Phase will be showing their back on some variation of the Hy6 at Photo Plus.
I have also seen an email from a phase employee talking about the positives of the Hy6 system at the same time promising the camera solution.
There are tons of rampant rumors as how it will all turn out. But my gut and all the evidence I have seen points to the Hy6 or some variation. Anyone know what Rollei is actually calling their version?
Matt LaPointe
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http://www.pbase.com/omoses/eq_rollei (http://www.pbase.com/omoses/eq_rollei)
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PHASE WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR THE ROLLEI HY6!
There are no questions about this. It is a fact. Phase is not worried about anything, nor will it start manufacturing camera's, IMO
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146047\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Perhaps early to make sure but I would love to see it happen.
Although in addition to Rollei Hy6, Phase+Mamiya ZD DSLR would be a very nice option to have.
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We'll see...
I feel fairly confident about what I have heard, but am at no liberty to discuss it.
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So there are two options left now: Phase could make a mechanical adapter to mount their backs with a sync cable, or they could make a deal with Jenoptik after all.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146230\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Or, Phase could reverse-engineer the interface, unless there are patents involved that preclude use of the reverse-engineered interface.
In any case, I guess we'll find out on Thursday if the rumors are true...
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This is what I am waiting for. I hope its true.
In any case, I guess we'll find out on Thursday if the rumors are true...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146234\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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There are indeed patents involved.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146243\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What, exactly, do these patents cover?
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How is was phase involved with Mamiya and Rollei 6008 and Hasselblad in the past. Did they have to sign up financially with these companies?
There are indeed patents involved. But even then: imagine what would happen if Jenoptik sends out a firmware update that keeps the Phase backs away again. Is that what we want? iPhone scenarios with $25K equipment?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146243\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear John-Paul,
With all due respect for your believes, wishes, hopes and convictions, it is very dangerous to post or express such claims and make them look like true in the eyes of other readers/members, here on this forum or elsewhere.
I do not wish to debate the veracity or not of what is claimed, but simply warning about claims made when based solely on rumours. You might be right or not, that is not the point, but as long as nothing is based on any proven fact or document or company statement, etc ..., it should not be distorted into a veracity. Even if you have it from believed "many good sources". The consequences involved if proven wrong or different can be sometimes very serious.
Best regards,
Thierry
This is what I am waiting for. I hope its true.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146237\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I would have to disagree with you on this. It is a web forum. Not a published magazine or newsletter or press release. I would say that about 50% of the information on these topics in this forum is speculation.
I know for a fact that people are testing the Rollei Phase combo at the moment. As to if it will be released or how it is connected etc. I can't say.
I don't understand what the "serious consequences" could be. This is an open web forum. I don't work for a camera company. I am just stating my opinion and the knowledge that I do have. As I have stated previously (and I am sure every one understands who reads these forums) take it or leave it. Only time will tell. This is my statement, and seeing as I have six replies on this page alone, I am going to try my hardest to stop participating on this post. I have said all I need.
Dear John-Paul,
With all due respect for your believes, wishes, hopes and convictions, it is very dangerous to post or express such claims and make them look like true in the eyes of other readers/members, here on this forum or elsewhere.
I do not wish to debate the veracity or not of what is claimed, but simply warning about claims made when based solely on rumours. You might be right or not, that is not the point, but as long as nothing is based on any proven fact or document or company statement, etc ..., it should not be distorted into a veracity. Even if you have it from believed "many good sources". The consequences involved if proven wrong or different can be sometimes very serious.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146246\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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we have the right to disagree, don't we?
I did not mean this as an offence at all, and it is just my opinion, since I have learned it myself the hard way what it can be to speak about rumours: not on this forum and not concerning photography, rather on a private level. But I am now very cautious when forwarding an information which I only believe to be true.
Yes, it is an open forum, definitively. But think about that there are some 24,000 registered members and about the same amount of guests/readers. Some of those members/readers/guests do take whatever is written as the truth, some do take this truth with them and "forward" it with their own words, making a new "reality" out of an initial rumour (and we all know how rumours sometimes end). It can then generate misunderstandings in the market, sometimes wrong decisions, and so on ... That are the (sometimes serious) consequences when nothing is based on any true document or proven fact. I did not mean to"threaten" you by saying so, just express my opinion.
But again, I do not want to argue against your "truth", which might be right or wrong. Yes, time will tell.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
I would have to disagree with you on this. It is a web forum. Not a published magazine or newsletter or press release. I would say that about 50% of the information on these topics in this forum is speculation.
I know for a fact that people are testing the Rollei Phase combo at the moment. As to if it will be released or how it is connected etc. I can't say.
I don't understand what the "serious consequences" could be. This is an open web forum. I don't work for a camera company. I am just stating my opinion and the knowledge that I do have. As I have stated previously (and I am sure every one understands who reads these forums) take it or leave it. Only time will tell. This is my statement, and seeing as I have six replies on this page alone, I am going to try my hardest to stop participating on this post. I have said all I need.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146249\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I will take this on board. And consider it in the future.
we have the right to disagree, don't we?
I did not mean this as an offence at all, and it is just my opinion, since I have learned it myself the hard way what it can be to speak about rumours: not on this forum and not concerning photography, rather on a private level. But I am now very cautious when forwarding an information which I only believe to be true.
Yes, it is an open forum, definitively. But think about that there are some 24,000 registered members and about the same amount of guests/readers. Some of those members/readers/guests do take whatever is written as the truth, some do take this truth with them and "forward" it with their own words, making a new "reality" out of an initial rumour (and we all know how rumours sometimes end). It can then generate misunderstandings in the market, sometimes wrong decisions, and so on ... That are the (sometimes serious) consequences when nothing is based on any true document or proven fact. I did not mean to"threaten" you by saying so, just express my opinion.
But again, I do not want to argue against your "truth", which might be right or wrong. Yes, time will tell.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146253\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Well it's Thursday. Isn't this the day of the show in which the rumours suggested some Phase One news?
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not so sure if the exhibition is already open!
May be we have to be patient a bit longer.
Well it's Thursday. Isn't this the day of the show in which the rumours suggested some Phase One news?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146924\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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not so sure if the exhibition is already open!
May be we have to be patient a bit longer.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=146925\")
It is open & info is coming out;
[a href=\"http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/newswire/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003659927]http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/newswire/arti...t_id=1003659927[/url]
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Cut and pasted from the phase forum...
"While our R&D efforts are confidential, I can assure you that we have some VERY exciting products and solutions on the way in the next year!
PhotoPlus NYC is coming in another day and many things will likely become public regarding the H2F and its features. The H2 as it is now, while production may be halting, they will certainly remain on the market for some time and will be officially supported by Hasselblad for at least 7 years. Worry not, if you own an H system it will continue to serve you well for sometime.
_________________
Kind Regards,
Jon Gilbert
Phase One"
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Looks like JP was playing a prank. Was anyone at the fair and can confirm either way?
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Like I said previously, I can only confirm that it is being tested, as far as when it is going to be released or how it is going to be connected I cannot say.
Looks like JP was playing a prank. Was anyone at the fair and can confirm either way?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147171\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Well someone wrote that there would be an announcement at Photo Plus. If that wasn't you, I apologize.
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Well someone wrote that there would be an announcement at Photo Plus. If that wasn't you, I apologize.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would love to have the answer confirmed today too, obviously it is not up to JP.
Perhaps they need more time to confirm the announcement..........
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Like I said previously, I can only confirm that it is being tested, as far as when it is going to be released or how it is going to be connected I cannot say.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147173\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I saw the Rollei Hy6 at Photo Plus Expo in New York. It appears that the attachment of a Phase back will be a do-it-yourself project, using either Super Glue or duct tape.
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was there not even an adapter between?!
Thierry
I saw the Rollei Hy6 at Photo Plus Expo in New York. It appears that the attachment of a Phase back will be a do-it-yourself project, using either Super Glue or duct tape.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147193\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hi
This is for the people @ Phase. Work with Mamiya & build the ZDII camera at a good price. The camera is built as are lots of lenses. You will increase market share in the MFD market & aim this camera at the wedding portrait guys who have left MF in droves.
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I saw the Rollei Hy6 at Photo Plus Expo in New York. It appears that the attachment of a Phase back will be a do-it-yourself project, using either Super Glue or duct tape.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147193\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
These kind of comments are exactly why I don’t care to post at this forum anymore - it is really a shame, but the ratio between good information / crap and rumors are just too low.
Torben
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... and that is exactly the reason why I have asked to avoid posting "information" without concrete facts, proves, documents or statements, Torben.
However, I think you know as well that there are (many) people here who do share and post real and true information, and posting it only when it is a sure and documented one.
Best regards,
Thierry
These kind of comments are exactly why I don’t care to post at this forum anymore - it is really a shame, but the ratio between good information / crap and rumors are just too low.
Torben
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147336\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I saw the Rollei Hy6 at Photo Plus Expo in New York. It appears that the attachment of a Phase back will be a do-it-yourself project, using either Super Glue or duct tape.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147193\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
I laughed when I read this, I think we need some humor sometimes. I am hearing the same thing down in Sydney that Phase will be on the Hy6 but there is no press release on this. It could be a rumor & if Jenoptic owns the Hy6 ( they spent money to design it ), why would they let Phase on? They want to increase the market share of Sinar. Until & when there is a press release then Phase is not part of the Hy6.
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Hi
I laughed when I read this, I think we need some humor sometimes. I am hearing the same thing down in Sydney that Phase will be on the Hy6 but there is no press release on this. It could be a rumor & if Jenoptic owns the Hy6 ( they spent money to design it ), why would they let Phase on? They want to increase the market share of Sinar. Until & when there is a press release then Phase is not part of the Hy6.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147341\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, Torben is apparently a VERY serious man. Perhaps he saw my comment as a rumour. Of course, it was a joke. However, what's so remarkable is that Torben was actually quite active in spreading the rumour in prior posts that Phase was in on the Hy6 project. Wow!
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As a Phase owner, I share people's concern with not having a modern, in-production camera system compatible with Phase (other than Mamiya).
To that end I spoke with Phase this week, and they told me the following (shared with their permission):
1) Phase backs will be usable with the Hy6. No timeframe specified, and when questioned on whether this would be a simple mechanical adaptation with a cable, or a true full (electronic) integration, they could not specify at this point in time.
2) Phase will be announcing a new camera platform later this year. No details on the camera platform, and the timeframe provided was Q1 '08. "...we will... have our own (open ended) camera platform in Q1 08."
Dealers are supposed to have some information on this as well.
So I hope that comes as a relief to some Phase owners (it did for me), that Phase appears to have some interesting developments in store in the near future.
Best regards,
Brad
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This is big news, if true. I would be astonished if Phase will introduce a completely new platform with an all-new lens lineup. The R&D to develop a body, six lenses, viewfinder options, etc is huge. Look at the cost of the Hy6 project and that was for a body (partly based on a previous body) and new viewfinders only.
Well the rumours here have been pretty unreliable here lately so I'm definitely taking it with a pinch of salt.
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I can't wait to see the PhaseOne camera, I wonder what lenses it will use though.
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they can't start from nothing...
release or announcement in Q1 08?
if it's release the cam already exist...
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they can't start from nothing...
release or announcement in Q1 08?
if it's release the cam already exist...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149177\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bad did say that the announcement would be this year.
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The link provided is to a brief clip of a 2005 video interview with the CEO of Phase One. Two things are clear in his comments. 1) Phase One (as well as Hasselblad) sees the rapid advance of 35mm DSLR cameras as a threat to the survival of medium-format. 2) Phase One has not placed their bets or forecast the future very well in terms of camera platforms.
Video Interview Link (http://luminous-landscape.com/video_journal/vj13-phase-ceo.shtml)
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Did he say Contax??
I thought Contax was dead in the water...?
I think Medium format prices are going to still have to come down a little if they want to compete at all with Canon...:+} Especially with the 1DsIII but we'll see when guys start getting them.
Snook
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I think Medium format prices are going to still have to come down a little if they want to compete at all with Canon...:+} Especially with the 1DsIII but we'll see when guys start getting them.
Didn't Canon themselves admit that they would need better lenses for this camera? Let's wait and see how 'cheap' they are before comparing
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Did he say Contax??
I thought Contax was dead in the water...?
I think Medium format prices are going to still have to come down a little if they want to compete at all with Canon...:+} Especially with the 1DsIII but we'll see when guys start getting them.
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149209\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The interview was in 2005, before the Contax system was discontinued.
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I don't know exactly who to quote, but a poster said the contax-platform would be impossible to ressurect.
Update- found the poster -> Steve Kerman
________________________________________________________________________________
(Continuing from my previous post) Then add in what we think we know:
1. I believe I saw a statement from Michael that Phase has a plan.
2. Michael has categorically stated that resurrecting Contax is not a possibility.
3. I think I saw Michael state several months ago that Phase was going to be available on the Hy6 platform.
From a practical point of view, that pretty much leaves possiblities 1, 3a, and 5. I view 5 as quite unlikely. And, not to denigrate those who really like Mamiya, but there are many folk who would view a Phase/Mamiya combination as rather like a Rolls Royce/Yugo deal to put Rolls Royce engines in Yugos.
That would seem to leave a Phase/Hy6 deal as by far the most probable.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Why is that? I mean, if it exists, and the company owning it is down the drain...why wouldn't it be possible to buy the concept and re-brand it?
Personally, I don't believe Phase would bring anonther camera to the market. But boy, would it be beneficial for the MF market.
regards
Mike
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Graham,
I assume your skepticism is aimed at Phase... (If not, I think if you look over my postings I've been quite careful to separate opinion and/or speculation from any factual events. Posting this information and the source of that information should be regarded differently than simply posting baseless hearsay.)
TechTalk,
I think Hasselblad has done a good job of following through on emulating the 35mm business model, but while I fully understand the motivations, I worry about how well it will work out in the long run (there are a lot of H1 & H2 owners out there who feel burned). I do wish for Hasselblad's success, because with more players in the market we all reap the rewards as photographers.
Phase is re-iterating their commitment to 'openness' which, if it pans out, is admirable. Again, the word 'open' is over-used by marketers everywhere, so we'll have to wait and see if the truth lives up to the promise. It seems to me that following the 35mm model would preclude the anything-goes mix and match world of, say, the Hasselblad-V, so I wonder if Phase is looking at things a bit differently now than they were in '05.
Asmp, David, Mike,
All good questions--I have no information on what the platform will be. On a speculative note, some folks I have spoken with are expressing doubt it will be a Contax-based system, but again, there is nothing official or factual about this position, just some folks 'reading between the lines' as it were.
That does leave one to wonder whose lenses will they use, etc. I suppose all we can do is sit tight and wait to see what gets announced.
Mike,
The way it was explained to me is that the mystery camera platform is a separate deal from any Hy6 participation. In other words, they should be on Hy6 at some point AND have a camera platform.
If true, all this choice sounds wonderful for the photographer. Fortunately we're not being asked to wait too long... I guess time will tell.
-Brad
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Rumor has it the next Leica R DSLR will be larger then 24x36 and very high res something in between MF and 35 (possibly fitting in a 36mm image circle) maybe it could be a vehicle for a Phase chip? How many options could Phase have for developing a camera and lens from scratch?
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Rumor has it the next Leica R DSLR will be larger then 24x36 and very high res something in between MF and 35 (possibly fitting in a 36mm image circle) maybe it could be a vehicle for a Phase chip? How many options could Phase have for developing a camera and lens from scratch?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149268\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Camera from scratch? Maybe they could do that... Lens line from scratch, too? I'm thinking "no way"... I suspect Phase would need a Zeiss/Schneider/Rodenstock/Leica to step up and produce for them.
Could be a Leica venture--I suppose anything's possible. I was surprised Leica was going to buy Sinar (and more surprised the deal fell through), so who knows what plans Leica had (or has) for MF?
Since it's all pure speculation at this point, I won't add any more fuel to the fire with guesses of my own. Interesting idea though, Hank.
-Brad
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I understand the emotional attachment that people have to the tools that they use to create art. Whether the endeavor is considered commercial illustration or fine-art, the tools are part of the creative process and to some degree become an extension of the artist. I also, therefore, understand when emotions affect our attitudes about the direction that we would like to see companies, that make those tools, take and our desires for the tools we'd like to see them produce. There are, unfortunately, some cold hard financial and business realities at work in the medium-format photography market that are simply unavoidable and just starting to be fully realized.
First, there is no longer any profit to be made selling medium-format SLR cameras to the public. There is no balance or combination of volume and price that will make them profitable to sell for any company. The simple notions that a company can either reduce prices to increase volume or raise prices to increase profit do not work for this market. The factors limiting demand and volume for medium-format cameras are not directly related to the cameras themselves. The primary factor limiting medium-format camera demand is the high cost of digital backs compared to 35mm digital SLRs.
There was a healthy medium-format camera market when film was king. In the past, the cost of a medium-format camera was thousands of dollars higher than 35mm, but the cost of using one (film and processing) was comparable. As demand for digital cameras replaced demand for film cameras, the cost for a medium-format camera was still thousands of dollars higher, but the cost of using one for digital capture added tens of thousands of dollars to the cost! Demand plummeted for medium-format and once healthy manufacturers went out of business and they all lost money at a rapid rate. This is where we are today. Hasselblad, Mamiya and Rollei are left standing in the medium-format SLR market. All have been through severe financial problems and have been sold, merged or reorganized multiple times.
If there is no longer any profit in making medium-format cameras, how will the remaining market be sustained? The answer is that the cameras left will have to be subsidized and supported by the sale of digital backs. Medium-format cameras and backs have reached a symbiotic financial and market relationship. The reality is, medium-format camera manufacturing can only be sustained by the sale of the digital backs that are connected to them–not electronically, but financially. The other half of this financial/market mutual reliance is that digital backs need cameras to connect to, in order to have a purpose and survive.
The real-world proof, of all of this, is the past and present market. Those medium-format SLR makes and models that did not also have the sale of digital backs as a source of income are gone. Those remaining are all tied financially to digital back sales of their own make or in the case of the Hy6/AFi to others. Hasselblad has already indicated that they have little or no interest in the business of selling cameras that are not mated to their digital backs. The Sinar/Rollei/Leaf Hy6/AFi would not exist without the financial support of R&D, sales, marketing and service that are provided by Jenoptik and Leaf. The maker, Franke & Heidecke, no longer has the financial resources and has positioned themselves as a contract manufacturer. Mamiya has had very severe financial losses and it remains to be seen if their late entry into the digital back/camera market can return them to a healthy financial state. The plans of Mamiya's new owner, Cosmos Scientific Systems, Inc., remain unknown. I've left out Pentax, as they are missing-in-action in the medium-format digital business and are in the process of being absorbed by Hoya.
Given the financial reality as it exists now, I would anticipate that in the future medium-format cameras will follow the trend of camera and back being designed, marketed and sold as integrated units. There is simply no financial justification to make a money losing product, unless it supports income from a profitable one.
The business of selling digital backs has not always been profitable either. You may be surprised to discover that Phase One has operated at a loss in many of the past years. The current CEO was appointed in 2001 and given the task of turning the company around. The group of banks and venture capital firms that owned Phase One wanted to groom the company to take public or sell. In 2002, Phase One diversified by becoming a software company with Capture One for Canon, Nikon and many other cameras. After years of losses, in 2003 Phase One turned a small profit. 2004 was considerably better and by 2005, the owners were actively trying to find a buyer when they could show three straight years of profit. No buyer was found and in 2006 the company was sold to four current Phase One managers (75% share) and a danish venture capital firm (25% share).
The problem facing Phase One is not their current financial position, but future direction. As a software company they are going to be hit hard in market share by Adobe and Apple. DxO will take another slice.
In digital backs, Phase One is not providing any financial incentive for a camera maker to provide them with a platform. If I have made anything clear with this lengthy post, I hope it is the business necessity that is now emerging for medium-format camera manufacture to be financially supported by the sale of digital backs. Being offended by this fact, will unfortunately not change it. You can expect that Phase One is now actively searching for a camera to be tied to not just electronically, but financially as well–for their own future prosperity. The days of medium-format cameras and digital backs that are connected electronically, but not financially, is rapidly coming to a close–not because any of these companies are uncaring, evil or have bad intentions, but to survive into the future.
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Phase One made the big mistake not to taken on the offer from Jenoptic,to be part of the Hy6,or to pay for the license to produce digital ready Hy6 Phase One backs.
Maybe the money wasn't there?
I'm sure Jenoptic wasn't going to do Phase any favors as they also need to sell Sinar backs.
Anyway,
we now have 3 current systems( Hasselblad,Hy6 and Mamiya) and one non current(Contax 645)
Do we need more?
I think Phase should pay up and become part of the Hy6 family.
A lot of Phase shooters would be very happy! And we are not only talking about dentist!
Cheers,
WR.
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Well said! TechTalk
I think you hit the nail on the head!
WR.
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I could not agree more, respectively that's the real state of the market.
Thanks TechTalk!
Thierry
I understand the emotional attachment that people have to the tools that they use to create art. Whether the endeavor is considered commercial illustration or fine-art, the tools are part of the creative process and to some degree become an extension of the artist. I also, therefore, understand when emotions affect our attitudes about the direction that we would like to see companies, that make those tools, take and our desires for the tools we'd like to see them produce. There are, unfortunately, some cold hard financial and business realities at work in the medium-format photography market that are simply unavoidable and just starting to be fully realized.
First, there is no longer any profit to be made selling medium-format SLR cameras to the public. There is no balance or combination of volume and price that will make them profitable to sell for any company. The simple notions that a company can either reduce prices to increase volume or raise prices to increase profit do not work for this market. The factors limiting demand and volume for medium-format cameras are not directly related to the cameras themselves. The primary factor limiting medium-format camera demand is the high cost of digital backs compared to 35mm digital SLRs.
There was a healthy medium-format camera market when film was king. In the past, the cost of medium-format cameras was thousands of dollars higher than 35mm, but the cost of using them (film and processing) was comparable. As demand for digital cameras replaced demand for film cameras, the cost for a medium-format camera was still thousands of dollars higher, but the cost of using one for digital capture added tens of thousands of dollars to the cost! Demand plummeted for medium-format and once healthy manufacturers went out of business and they all lost money at a rapid rate. This is where we are today. Hasselblad, Mamiya and Rollei are left standing in the medium-format SLR market. All have been through severe financial problems and have been sold, merged and reorganized multiple times.
If there is no longer any profit in making medium-format cameras, how will the remaining market be sustained? The answer is that the cameras left will have to be subsidized and supported by the sale of digital backs. Medium-format cameras and backs have reached a symbiotic financial and market relationship. The reality is, medium-format camera manufacturing can only be sustained by the sale of the digital backs that are connected to them. The other half of this financial/market mutual reliance is that digital backs need cameras to connect to, in order to have a purpose and survive.
The real-world proof, of all of this, is the past and present market. Those medium-format SLR makes and models that did not also have the sale of digital backs as a source of income are gone. Those remaining are all tied financially to digital back sales of their own make or in the case of the Hy6/AFi to others. Hasselblad has already indicated that they have little or no interest in the business of selling cameras that are not mated to their digital backs. The Sinar/Rollei/Leaf Hy6/AFi would not exist without the financial support of R&D, sales, marketing and service that are provided by Jenoptik and Leaf. The maker, Franke & Heidecke no longer has the financial resources and has positioned themselves as a contract manufacturer. Mamiya has had very severe financial losses and it remains to be seen if their late entry into the digital back/camera market can return them to a healthy financial state. The plans of Mamiya's new owner, Cosmos Scientific Systems, Inc., remain unknown. I've left out Pentax, as they are missing-in-action in the medium-format digital business and are in the process of being absorbed by Hoya.
Given the financial reality as it exists now, I would anticipate that in the future medium-format cameras will follow the trend of camera and back being designed, marketed and sold as integrated units. There is simply no financial justification to make a money losing product, unless it supports income from a profitable one.
The business of selling digital backs has not always been profitable either. You may be surprised to know that Phase One has operated at a loss in many years. The current CEO was appointed in 2001 and given the task of turning the company around. The group of banks and venture capital firms that owned Phase One wanted to groom the company to take public or sell. In 2002, Phase One diversified by becoming a software company with Capture One for Canon, Nikon and many other cameras. After years of losses, in 2003 Phase One turned a small profit. 2004 was considerably better and by 2005, the owners were actively trying to find a buyer when they could show three straight years of profit. No buyer was found and in 2006 the company was sold to four current Phase One managers (75% share) and a danish venture capital firm (25% share).
The problem facing Phase One is not their current financial position, but future direction. As a software company they are going to be hit hard in market share by Adobe and Apple. DxO will take another slice.
In digital backs, Phase One is not providing any financial incentive for a camera maker to provide them with a platform. If I have made anything clear with this lengthy post, I hope it is the business necessity that is now emerging for medium-format camera manufacture to be financially supported by the sale of digital backs. Being offended by this fact, will unfortunately not change it. You can expect that Phase One is now actively searching for a camera to be tied to not just electronically, but financially as well–for their own future prosperity. The days of medium-format cameras and digital backs that are connected electronically, but not financially, is rapidly coming to a close. Not because any of these companies are uncaring, evil or have bad intentions, but to survive into the future.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Well said! TechTalk
I think you hit the nail on the head!
WR.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149288\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I could not agree more, respectively that's the real state of the market.
Thanks TechTalk!
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149292\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks. I have tried to make some of these points in bits and pieces before, but they really required a longer post in order to be fully understood.
I apologize for the length of the post, but the situation is more complicated than some may realize or care to know.
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Tech
that was really interesting and pertinent.
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I still think the best thing for Phase would be to merge with Mamiya and release an AFDIII (with at least 1/400 sync and better AF). Phase has good backs but need a dedicated camera platform and Mamiya has good cameras & lenses but are lagging behind in digital backs. Sounds like a marriage made in heaven to me
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I agree, phase would do well if Mamiya could come up with a newer camera body with a decent sync speed and better af. It seems like mamiya isn't making an amazing back and phase has no camera. Also, the Hy6 idea would probably work out well, but they need something to set them apart from the rest. Them with Leica as a camera/lensmaker would be fantastic and would have many people interested. But until we get real news, who knows. I just hope they stick around as competition is always good, no matter how big or small the market. For any getting worried about companies getting pushed out just because market share is small, take a look at the audiophile market. It's small, but people still spend 40k for a new turntable even though there are cheaper alternatives that offer great sound. It'll be interesting to see what happens to the market if Canon ever decides to jump into a real medium format system.
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For what it's worth, when I bought my P45+/Mamiya 645 AFD II system, it was Phase who quoted me a price for the Mamiya side of the deal, not Mamiya. As far as I could tell, it was also Phase that sold me the Mamiya gear, not Mamiya (I was working thru a dealer, so some of those details are a little murky). At the time, I reached the conclusion that there was more to the Phase One/Mamiya relationship than I realized. I'm not sure if I was reading too much into this, but it's at least interesting.
All that aside, I agree with the others that Phase should have ponied up the money to get on the Hy6 platform (assuming that Jenoptic really offered it to them in good faith). I can't see Phase coming out with their own body, but who knows - stranger things have happened. And Brad's information certainly suggests that something is afoot. Leica and Phase - that would be exciting.
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Edited.
Fuel to the fire.......or maybe not.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2...PhaseOnePR.mspx (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2007/oct07/10-26PhaseOnePR.mspx)
D.
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Please tell me where I can buy these for that kind of money?
Thanks.
D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149365\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It was a typo I meant £UK no $US I as I did explain
S
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Techtalk,
I'm in complete agreement with what you've written. Thanks for taking the time to express it so well!
There are two points that I would add to this perspective.
One is about *how* a company, Hasselblad, for example, might best go about moving to a "unified" (since 'closed' and 'bundled' are negatively loaded terms) selling model. My only concern with Hassy's approach is that they may alienate enough of their existing customer base to cause a problem for themselves going forward. (For the record, I am not in that camp.) In business, existing customers are an incredibly important asset--I just hope Hassy hasn't alienated too many of theirs.
As for this approach itself, we're definitely on the same page--the unified selling approach makes perfect business sense in the new digital world, particularly for Hassy, with their history as a leader in MF camera body sales.
The other perspective I'd like to add is that Phase's approach is (apparently) different. Perhaps they are making a mistake? Or perhaps not...
Hasselblad's approach does make sense for a MF *camera* maker. Hasselblad is approaching the digital world with a strong position in camera sales. Phase, on the other hand, doesn't even make a camera, but is (reportedly) #1 in digital back sales. With this in mind, I think continuing to pursue the 'mix and match' philosophy also makes sense, particularly if the company in question, like Phase is a *back* manufacturer, in the business of selling high-margin backs instead of (relatively) low-margin cameras.
If I were Phase, I'd want any medium format shooter, on any camera platform to have the ability to buy my back. To some, the message "buy our back and use it anywhere (except where *those* mean folks won't let you)" might be a compelling one.
So in the end, I can't fault for blame any of the three major players (Hasselblad, Jenoptik/Sinar or Phase) for the directions they're taking. They all do seem to be rational and to make good business sense. Personally I feel it's really about effectively communicating the 'openness' or 'closedness' of a system before the purchase so that customers understand the landscape and aren't surprised and disapointed when the next-generation models come out.
Thanks again for the thought-provoking post.
Best regards,
Brad
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I think they already have that descerning factor in the use of Schneider and Zeiss lenses, while a new line of F&H own lenses is under development. Three German lens brands on one very modern MF camera does look quite attractive to me. So far Leica has not proved to be able to make glass for MF use. Not that I would object if they did make lenses for the Hy6. It would mean all the world's jewels on one crown.
My point about being set apart is being set apart from leaf and sinar who currently are involved with the Hy6 platform, not that the Hy6 platform needs something else.
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Here are a couple of things that Phase One will be offering:
1. With the purchase of a 3 Year Value Added package with your DB, you will be allowed a free
platform change within 36 months of the original purchase.
2. Phase One will be supporting the Hy6 concept.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
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Chris
Any idea what a 3 year Value Added package will sell for?
Thanks,
Mark
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I understand the emotional attachment that people have to the tools that they use to create art. ....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Tech - that was an incredible piece of analysis you wrote; something we can't get anywhere else. It was very cogent. Great job. I am glad that you are around to keep us so well informed. And thanks for taking the time to write such a lengthy text. I guess as someone else said, these are now interesting times for DMF manufacturers and purchasers. You would make a good therapist.
Sean
PS - Love your occasional bouts of meowing, hissing and clawing
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Hi Chris
You just stated outright as a Phase One dealer that they will be supporting the Hy6. This is monumental news if it is no longer speculation but actual fact.
Are you the first one to break this news or am I maybe too busy and everyone else knows this already?
Thx
Olaf
Here are a couple of things that Phase One will be offering:
1. With the purchase of a 3 Year Value Added package with your DB, you will be allowed a free
platform change within 36 months of the original purchase.
2. Phase One will be supporting the Hy6 concept.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149567\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Chris
Any idea what a 3 year Value Added package will sell for?
Thanks,
Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149578\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mark,
I don't know what the package will go for currently. When I have more details
I'll post them.
Thank you,
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
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Chris,
Just had a look at your website for the first time. I like the Comparison page.
What, in a few words, is the difference between the P45 and the P45+?
Many thanks.
D.
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Hi Chris
You just stated outright as a Phase One dealer that they will be supporting the Hy6. This is monumental news if it is no longer speculation but actual fact.
Are you the first one to break this news or am I maybe too busy and everyone else knows this already?
Thx
Olaf
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149594\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Olaf,
It was released to dealers last week that Phase One will support the Hy6. I don't have all the details currently, but hope to know more soon.
Thank you,
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
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All I have to say is.. I told you so. Finally someone more official then me announced it.
It was released to dealers last week that Phase One will support the Hy6. I don't have all the details currently, but hope to know more soon.
Thank you,
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149613\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Chris,
Just had a look at your website for the first time. I like the Comparison page.
What, in a few words, is the difference between the P45 and the P45+?
Many thanks.
D.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=149597\")
Dinarius,
Thank you for taking a look at our web site. Here is a link to tell you the differences between the P45 and the P45+ :
[a href=\"http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1digitalbacks/Pplusseries/Pplus.aspx]http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1digitalb...ries/Pplus.aspx[/url]
Thank you,
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
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There are other companies, besides Phase, who might be under pressure to do something -- if Kyocera owns the rights to Contax, but is not doing anything with them, that asset is quickly going to diminish in value as MF gets divided up. If they are going to do anything with those rights, it has to be soon -- and I don't see any possibility of anything being done with it, unless it's with Phase. There are simply no other players available -- the musical chairs have run out.
As for Phase making its own camera -- this may not necessarily be such a big problem (although perhaps I simply don't understand the problems.) To oversimplify, they basically need to build a light-tight box on the front of their backs, that would take lenses from any of the other manufacturers -- that is, the adaptor plate might not need to be on the back of the camera, but on the front. Is this completely off base?
As for Phase joining with Mamiya, this makes sense to me, if Mamiya really continues to exist in any real way. To make money here, Phase would have to accept a kind of culture shift -- it used to be that Mamiya was the studio workhorse (the RZs) and a second-line small MF (the 645s) -- and it made money. It might be able to do that again, but it would have to accept second line status: lenses and bodies that might not be the very best (although still very good), and a price point that is suitably lower. If they could knock 20 percent off the price of an Hy6 or a Hassy, they would probably do well.
There might be some real synergy -- good for everybody -- if Phase joined the Hy6 consortium. To know that you have a range of options for a given system would encourage people to buy it, especially given Hassy's recent behavior. And once a person bought any Hy6 back (with lenses) it's likely that any upgrades or back-changes would come within the available range of backs, rather than going outside to Hasselblad. So Phase's joining the consortium could be good for all of them.
Bernard, though, held up the other wild card -- the upcoming Nikon. There have been some suggestions that Nikon is cooking up something unusual, perhaps a modular camera that would accept different sensor formulations. This could wind up knocking the lower end out of the MF market.
Be interesting; I think we'll know what's going to happen (what will set the direction for the next few decades) by the fall of 2010.
JC
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All I have to say is.. I told you so. Finally someone more official then me announced it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149617\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Before jumping to breathless conclusions, let's see what is meant by Phase "supporting" the Hy6. Is it true integration of the same sort offered by Sinar and Leaf on their variants of the Hy6, or is it an adapter plate for the Rolleiflex Hy6 with the need for a sync cable(i.e., no electronic communication between Hy6 body and Phase back)? If Phase IS coming out with a fully integrated version of the Rolleiflex Hy6 with Phase backs, I doubt it would be spinning it to its dealers as "supporting" the Hy6.
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Mark,
I don't know what the package will go for currently. When I have more details
I'll post them.
Thank you,
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149596\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
thanks chris for shining some official light...finally....
this was really the only way that there would be an alternative to hasselblad...so it will be leaf, phase, sinar along with F&H and mamiya with exchangeable parts/backs/bodies (all still locked in with specific mounts of course) against hasselblad with an all in one system....
i guess that is what hasselblad wanted.....
this announcement also means good news for leaf and sinar IMO.....they can't stand up to hasselblad alone....
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Why always so negative about Hassselblad????
What if phase announced to hasselblad last year they were developing their own camera system.....
Wouln't it be normal for hasselblad to take action and make sure phase doesn't profit anymore from their platform. This to me would be a very normal reaction!
And why are so many people who are not using hasselblad or even phase trying to create panic among people who do. Your current leaf back will not fit the Hy 6 just as my CF back doesn't fit the H3 or Hy6. But just as there will be very interesting upgrading programmes for your leaf, hasselblad back owners get very interesing upgrade possibillities to the H3 platform.
This is 2007, where economics are more important than ever before. And lets face it, the Hy6 sounds fine but is very expensive and manual focussing is a pita with digital backs, so AF lenses will be needed and there are no 2nd hand/ebay possibillities for it. Therefore i am asking myself how many of our forum readers will actually buy into such a system such as the Hy6.
I owned a complete rollei6008 integral system with practcally all lenses except for the long telephoto but it was no way to compete wiyh the H-blads. You don't have to believe it but i hope those who will find out the hard way will tell us about it.
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Why always so negative about Hassselblad????[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
To be honest, I'm surprised whenever Hasselblad gets a mentions on this forum. It appears to be overwhelmingly Phase in orientation.
I will have to take the plunge in the next few months. Clients are demanding it. So, no more 4x5 soon. I'd love the Hassie 4-shot. Ideal for my work. But, it's just too damned expensive and I've got a shed load of Mamiya RB gear that would become redundant immediately. So, it may be Phase that I go for. Apart from Mamiya compatibility, there seems to be a much healthier second-hand Phase market. Chris's second hand P45s are interesting.
D.
Note: I meant 'forum' as in site, not this thread, obviously!
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Chris - What's the difference be the P30+ & a Canon G9?
~ cole
Dinarius,
Thank you for taking a look at our web site. Here is a link to tell you the differences between the P45 and the P45+ :
http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1digitalb...ries/Pplus.aspx (http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1digitalbacks/Pplusseries/Pplus.aspx)
Thank you,
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149624\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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There might be some real synergy -- good for everybody -- if Phase joined the Hy6 consortium. To know that you have a range of options for a given system would encourage people to buy it, especially given Hassy's recent behavior. And once a person bought any Hy6 back (with lenses) it's likely that any upgrades or back-changes would come within the available range of backs, rather than going outside to Hasselblad. So Phase's joining the consortium could be good for all of them.
JC
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149638\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There is no "synergy" with the Hy6 and anyone other than Leaf/Sinar. It is not "good" for Jenoptik (who developed and owns the rights to the project and who own Sinar) for Phase to be involved. Selling more cameras and lenses will do no good for Jenoptik. All that will be good for Jenoptik is that photographers become more interested in the Sinar digital platform (a worthwhile notion) and the Hy6 is the "carrot" they are using to make that happen.
I find the idea of an "open" platform quaint. Open to what? Meaning, what film camera that is still being produced will you put a digital back on?
*503CW
*Mamiya 645
*Mamiya RZ
*Rollei 6008
That's it. Unless you already own one of these, what is the benefit of being "open" to them? Particularly compared to the benefits of a true, integrated medium format digital camera? Not that there's anything wrong in being "open", dear users of open systems. A digital back connected to a non digital camera works perfectly well. My problem is that the companies who are pushing ahead with advancement are getting criticized while a company who does nothing gets praised.
I find the idea of trumpeting "Hey, we're open" a desperate attempt to stall.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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*503CW
*Mamiya 645
*Mamiya RZ
*Rollei 6008
That's it. Unless you already own one of these, what is the benefit of being "open" to them?
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=149662\")
And the Mamiya RB according to this page........
[a href=\"http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1digitalbacks/Pplusseries/Pplus/P45+.aspx]http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1digitalb...Pplus/P45+.aspx[/url]
If that's wrong, then I really am screwed!
D.
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Dinarius, if you are unsure about which platform you will use then perhaps you should consider a back with an adapter system which will let you use multiple platforms.
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I find the idea of an "open" platform quaint. Open to what? [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149662\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My dream when I bought an 'open' back was not what old clunkers I could swap to
It was my hope to swap to a decent body with good multipoint AF WHOEVER released it
ie an openness to the future.
This was obvioulsy dreaming
S
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Further - I don't find any MFDB players "open" at all. They ALL force you to use their back.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Dear ixpressraf,
- Wrong, Leaf backs will adapt and fit to the Sinar Hy6 as well as the Sinarbacks will adapt and fit the Leaf AFi.
- Yes, the Hasselblad backs will not fit
- Why saying or suggesting that there is no AF with the Hy6?!
The Hy6 is a camrea system accepting more than 24 lenses, between the Schneider non-AF and AF, the Zeiss lenses, as wel as the new Shneider/Zeiss AFD lenses.
I would like facts not being distorted: it has been said and stated many times here.
- prices: look at and compare the system prices.
- in which way could the 6008 in "no way compete with the Hasselblad"? Can you specify?
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Your current leaf back will not fit the Hy 6 just as my CF back doesn't fit the H3 or Hy6.
And lets face it, the Hy6 sounds fine but is very expensive and manual focussing is a pita with digital backs, so AF lenses will be needed and there are no 2nd hand/ebay possibillities for it. Therefore i am asking myself how many of our forum readers will actually buy into such a system such as the Hy6.
I owned a complete rollei6008 integral system with practcally all lenses except for the long telephoto but it was no way to compete wiyh the H-blads.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Looks like it was Weslee Ferguson from Global Imaging, Inc. in Louisville. Can you confirm this John-Paul?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=146056\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I met with Wes last week in SLC. I'm not sure what his source is but as my sales rep, I am assuming he is in a position to know. A Rollei Hy6 is the path he felt would open up for my P45+ when I'm ready to move away from the H1 down the road.
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Further - I don't find any MFDB players "open" at all. They ALL force you to use their back.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149675\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
steve..of course there is no real open back..or camera ....open just means that i have a choice of back with a choice of camera...maybe that back can only be used one one camera at a time (with a mount change for a fee or not) or it can be used on several cameras via adapter....that is open...
hasselblad want you to use their back with their camera....which is actually fine with me...i would not want either, but that does not mean that either is bad or worse then anything else....either way...that is not open.....
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Here are a couple of things that Phase One will be offering:
1. With the purchase of a 3 Year Value Added package with your DB, you will be allowed a free
platform change within 36 months of the original purchase.
2. Phase One will be supporting the Hy6 concept.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149567\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Chris
You just stated outright as a Phase One dealer that they will be supporting the Hy6. This is monumental news if it is no longer speculation but actual fact.
Are you the first one to break this news or am I maybe too busy and everyone else knows this already?
Thx
Olaf
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149594\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Olaf,
It was released to dealers last week that Phase One will support the Hy6. I don't have all the details currently, but hope to know more soon.
Thank you,
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149613\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
All I have to say is.. I told you so. Finally someone more official then me announced it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149617\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
thanks chris for shining some official light...finally....
this was really the only way that there would be an alternative to hasselblad...so it will be leaf, phase, sinar along with F&H and mamiya with exchangeable parts/backs/bodies (all still locked in with specific mounts of course) against hasselblad with an all in one system....
i guess that is what hasselblad wanted.....
this announcement also means good news for leaf and sinar IMO.....they can't stand up to hasselblad alone....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149645\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Take a deep breath...now exhale. I'm sure Mr. Lawery did not intend to lead you to believe that Phase One has announced that they will have a back for the Hy6. They did not say, in the memo referenced, that they will "support" the Hy6 camera. Mr. Lawery correctly stated that they now support the concept of the Hy6.
What's the difference? Well, Phase One states in the memo "Up till now, Phase One has been sceptical towards the viability of the product strategy behind the Hy6 camera". Now, however, Phase One has decided that the concept has merit and feels there is a "good basis for reaching an agreement". The memo says they have had "discussions with the new management of Jenoptik, the owner of the Hy6" and "expect we can update you again in November on this issue".
Now you can read into this whatever you like, but being "sceptical towards the viability" and now deciding to "support the Hy6 concept" is a bit short of a done deal or a product announcement.
I would save the "I told you so" for a later date. After an agreement has actually been reached, would probably be a better time to break out the party hats. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but it would be good to hear from Jenoptik before you put away the umbrellas.
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Thanks, TechTalk!
Like always, you are able to discern between an official announcement and the "words" that are said.
It is definitively not up Phase to decide here.
Best regards,
Thierry
Take a deep breath...now exhale. I'm sure Mr. Lawery did not intend to lead you to believe that Phase One has announced that they will have a back for the Hy6. They did not say, in the memo referenced, that they will "support" the Hy6 camera. Mr. Lawery correctly stated that they now support the concept of the Hy6.
What's the difference? Well, Phase One states in the memo "Up till now, Phase One has been sceptical towards the viability of the product strategy behind the Hy6 camera". Now, however, Phase One has decided that the concept has merit and feels there is a "good basis for reaching an agreement". The memo says they have had "discussions with the new management of Jenoptik, the owner of the Hy6" and "expect we can update you again in November on this issue".
Now you can read into this whatever you like, but being "sceptical towards the viability" and now deciding to "support the Hy6 concept" is a bit short of a done deal or a product announcement.
I would save the "I told you so" for a later date. After an agreement has actually been reached, would probably be a better time to break out the party hats. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but it would be good to hear from Jenoptik before you put away the umbrellas.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149708\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thanks, TechTalk!
Like always, you are able to discern between an official announcement and the "words" that are said.
It is definitively not up Phase to decide here.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149709\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sometimes knowing a little bit of information gives people one perception, when a little more information would change that perception.
Just trying to keep things in perspective by being as fully accurate as possible.
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Take a deep breath...now exhale. I'm sure Mr. Lawery did not intend to lead you to believe that Phase One has announced that they will have a back for the Hy6. They did not say, in the memo referenced, that they will "support" the Hy6 camera. Mr. Lawery correctly stated that they now support the concept of the Hy6.
What's the difference? Well, Phase One states in the memo "Up till now, Phase One has been sceptical towards the viability of the product strategy behind the Hy6 camera". Now, however, Phase One has decided that the concept has merit and feels there is a "good basis for reaching an agreement". The memo says they have had "discussions with the new management of Jenoptik, the owner of the Hy6" and "expect we can update you again in November on this issue".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149708\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This seems like the most manipulative sort of corporate double speak, designed to temporarily stem the tide of people jumping to other backs while Phase frantically searches for an actual alternative.
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steve..of course there is no real open back..or camera ....open just means that i have a choice of back with a choice of camera...maybe that back can only be used one one camera at a time (with a mount change for a fee or not) or it can be used on several cameras via adapter....that is open...
hasselblad want you to use their back with their camera....which is actually fine with me...i would not want either, but that does not mean that either is bad or worse then anything else....either way...that is not open.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149704\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
"Open" appears to have degrees or levels. A digital back with interchangeable mounts is certainly more "open" than a back with a fixed mount. I suppose that you could call one an "open" system and the other a "closed" system.
The Hasselblad H3D camera bodies are not "open" to any digital back except the one mated at the factory, but are "open" to older "V" series lenses. The H3D backs are "open" to be used on any view or technical camera with an "H" mount.
Every product has limitations that are inherent in the design. It's up to the individual to decide which products best fit their needs and preferences. It's up to the individual also to decide if the amount of "openess" works for them.
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"Open" appears to have degrees or levels. A digital back with interchangeable mounts is certainly more "open" than a back with a fixed mount. I suppose that you could call one an "open" system and the other a "closed" system.
The Hasselblad H3D camera bodies are not "open" to any digital back except the one mated at the factory, but are "open" to older "V" series lenses. The H3D backs are "open" to be used on any view or technical camera with an "H" mount.
Every product has limitations that are inherent in the design. It's up to the individual to decide which products best fit their needs and preferences. It's up to the individual also to decide if the amount of "openess" works for them.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149712\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
you are absolutely correct...there is no open or not open...there are many levels....
as a photographer i can now decide on which back gives me the best file, the best workflow and which body i can live with....i am more or less locked into that desicion....if all three variables are provided by hasselblad, the solution is not more closed then any others.....it is just that hasselblad does not want anyone to have the choice....and from a business standpoint i understand that completely......but (and i am sure i will get crucified for making that analogy) from a businesspoint there is something to be said about childlabor or slavery...and either are (besides the obvious moral implications) nearsighted....in the long run happy workers will give you better work.....a forced move to corner the market will backfire....if hasselblad is the only one standing in 3 years i still won't buy one....canon and nikon will be shaking their heads laughing that they did not even have to come out with something out of their comfort zone to take over 95% of what used to be the MF market....they will leave the crumbs to hasselblad....i actually don't have a problem with that either....if i am forced to look through a viewfinder and hold a camera vertical that is made to shoot horizontal, i would rather have a grip on the bottom for that direction.....has anyone seen the nikon D3 viewfinder? if that camera had 16bit 22mpix (which it will have in 3 years, easily), who needs MF? 25000iso!!!.....no, i won't trade in anytime soon, but this is the real competition and hasselblads DSLR is on thin ice compared to that....
in the big picture it is in hasselblads interest that there is a MF market left! if they keep positioning themselves as DSLRs, maybe sombody will forget what MF use to be....big finders, big imagearea.....shallow DoF....if you take all this out of MF, there is nothing left and you are up against...nikon and canon...good luck....
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Well said Paul!
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It is definitively not up Phase to decide here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149709\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry, you've expressed that sentiment many times here, and I don't understand why. Absent a very broad, enforceable patent that completely precludes Phase from interfacing to the Hy6 (which is unlikely in light of the extensive prior art of interfacing backs and bodies), there is no way that Jenoptic can prevent Phase from making backs that work on their bodies. Also, it is illegal per se for Jenoptic/Sinar/Leaf to attempt a "tying arrangement" such as Leaf has in their current price list to attempt to tie buying a body to already having bought a back. See, for example, Fairchild v. Data General, where the Supreme Court slapped down Data General for doing that. So they can't keep Phase customers from buying Hy6 bodies to use with their Phase backs.
It seems to me that it is indeed up to Phase to decide.
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Dear Thierry,
My leaf aptus back has a fixed camera mount so it will not fit to the Hy6. I never said there was no AF on the hy6, i only said that most people only have manual focus lenses and will have to buy AF lenses. Manual focussing is as we all know very critical with MFDB. But for a lot of people on the forum, as i understand, there will be no monney to buy all of that.
The 6008 was a heavy, bulky and slow system compared to the H1 at that time.
The Hy6 is a more integrated and up to date platform and i agree it will be a fine tool at a also "fine price". Photographers who do have a good bussines will simply buy into the H6 system at whatever cost when they like working with it, just as for most hasselblad users there is no problem in upgrading to the H3 platform. That is why there is not that big problem for hasselblad and probably the new Afi/Hy6: if there are enough well earning people buying the system it will be a succes. Phase on the other hand will have to come with a new camera to link there back's to. Jenoptic and leaf will only be interested in letting phase on the platform when they can not sell the heeded volume of body's and lenses and then they lose the whole point of creating the Hy6 camera: making more profits, what is at the end the only reason for doing bussines. So the Hy6 will be exactly as" closed " as is the H3 camera.( unless they fail in there bussiness plan and are forced to let others on).
Phase one is certainly creating or expressed intentions to create their own platform and this will also be known to jenoptic and hasselblad.... ( and would you as photographer let your competition use your gear to have that competition getting bigger at your expenses?????? I do not think so!).
Best regards.
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I partly agree with you however I find that even the photographers that make enough money not to care too much about pricing are now paying attention on how they spend their money.
I know very few that can buy whatever they need/want without being too critical on price point. Even on the very high-end clients are looking on how to save and get 'more' for the same budget. It is just doing business with reasoning.
I think the MF market is too small to have the kind of competition where parties are trying to finish each other off. IMO, it will shy away people towards parties that are more likely to survive (Nikon & Canon). Effectively shrinking the MF market even more.
BTW. Did you get an Aptus?
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Dear Thierry,
My leaf aptus back has a fixed camera mount so it will not fit to the Hy6. I never said there was no AF on the hy6, i only said that most people only have manual focus lenses and will have to buy AF lenses. Manual focussing is as we all know very critical with MFDB. But for a lot of people on the forum, as i understand, there will be no monney to buy all of that.
The 6008 was a heavy, bulky and slow system compared to the H1 at that time.
The Hy6 is a more integrated and up to date platform and i agree it will be a fine tool at a also "fine price". [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149740\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree with most of this, too, but please note that the dating of the 6008 vs. the H1 are quite diffrerent. I believe the 6008 came out c. 1990, and the H1 some years (10?) later. The problem with the Rollei system is that it was thoroughly engineered and considered, but too soon. They spent much $ on data backs, and scanning backs that were just way too early, and ultimately not within the present marketplace. The 6008 series is a very comprehensive integrated update of Rollei's earlier 6006 and SL66 work, that started as an alternative to the 500C Hassy.
The differences in origins matter: Hassy has always had a better presence in the US than any Rollei SLR - Hassy's are available for rent in most major cities in the US, Rolleis not. The second hand market here is well supplied with Hassy gear - the Rollei/Schneider almost never seen in the US.
The updating moves of both companies seem almost out of step with each other - by about 5-10 years apiece. Hassy 500's to the Rollei 66, the Hassy 2000, then the Rollei 600X, back to the H1,2....3, back now to the Hy6. The difference (to me) seems that Rollei works a bit harder at certain aspects of the engineering, with more integration and perhaps a bit more demanding on the lens makers (Schneider+ Zeiss to get more variety) than Hassy did, but now Hassy is more "knit together" in their product line (Imacon) and Rollei is playing catch up.
Yes, the Hassy system is a "closed model" and the Hy6 maybe "open model" - the reality is that in the trenches (the digital back manufacturers), both these companies have backers that want to sell their backs. Also, an well worked out digital solution calls for tight knit single-source answers (alignment, sensor lenses, etc.).
Yet the marketplace of pro photographers hate being locked into one answer if they can avoid it. The cost of the backs is part of this issue - they are a huge capital investment, and require a rethink by the photographer as to their business model. Add to that buying lenses from one system, and the burden gets a bit large. If they have to change platforms in 5 years or need another system's lens (gee, who has the best shift or macro lens), they want the flexibility in their toolset, while minimizing their back investment. Who can blame them?
The new kid on the block (Hy6) raises all sorts of issues - and the predictable tensions between Phase and the Hy6 makers/backers will hopefully work its way out - the Hy6 folks will hopefully see the merit that more presence is for them (and us) a good thing, regardless of whose back is on it. That's not old world thinking, but something needed to be a player in today's market. The US is a big market, but if one has to travel to NYC to see/rent/buy a Hy6, that's not going to go over very well here. Its not just a question of having a dealer in every major town, but having a good dealer, a viable stock, and movement of product as well. More presence will be needed if this is to make it in the US. If not, well, maybe everyone gets swept away by the Canon/Nikon's of the world. After all, look what happened to GM and Ford.
At least that's one person's perspective.
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Yet the marketplace of pro photographers hate being locked into one answer if they can avoid it. The cost of the backs is part of this issue - they are a huge capital investment, and require a rethink by the photographer as to their business model. Add to that buying lenses from one system, and the burden gets a bit large. If they have to change platforms in 5 years or need another system's lens (gee, who has the best shift or macro lens), they want the flexibility in their toolset, while minimizing their back investment. Who can blame them?
Which is why the Sinarbacks with their adapters make so much sense! I get the feeling that people out there still haven't seen the light.
Its not just a question of having a dealer in every major town, but having a good dealer, a viable stock, and movement of product as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149752\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If I were Sinar/Leaf/Jenoptik, I'd be making sure that there's at least one rental outfit in each of the US's 10 largest cities (by size of photography market) to silence the critics who say that the Hy6 and lenses are not on the rental market radar. That's a small but very important task with potentially huge benefits.
For all I know this is already happening. I hope so.
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It would seem the future is in tightly integrated systems that can bring software to bear on lens correction, focus shift, lens cast and lens/back optimization. That means either closed systems or a level of inter company cooperation and standardization that is not likely to happen.
The 35mm DSLR is the likely model for future MF systems and it may be that the next generation of 35mm DSLR's will have arrived at the level that there really is no practical advantage for 99% of the work out there to using MF systems. Once resolution and dynamic range cease being differentiators what's left?
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Once resolution and dynamic range cease being differentiators what's left?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149761\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Um... how about up to 1/1000 flash sync speed?
Ever looked through a medium format WLF? So much better for composition and manual focusing.
If the new Canon comes out with 22MP, the DOF will be narrower, and focus even more critical. I don't have enough faith in Canon AF to be able to rely on it (and some shoots require manual focus anyway), and trying to manually focus through a Canon viewfinder on a 22MP body would be almost a waste of time, imo.
How about viewfinder options? It's great to have a WLF on my Rollei which I can swap for a 45 or 90 degree prism, which can be rotated too. This way you can put the camera on the ground and still see through it, or against a back wall if you have to.
How about quality of the lenses? Medium format lenses have already proven themselves up to 39MP. Canon admitted that they will need a new improved range of lenses to handle even 22MP. From my experience of the Rollei lenses, I have no qualms about using them wide open.
How about the killer app (for some people) of adding the digital back to a view camera and getting all the movements you could want? Or merely removing the back for easy sensor cleaning?
Finally, and this is a contentious one, but there is definitely a positive psychological effect on many clients when you pull out something which is more professional and exotic looking than what they have at home.
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Dinarius, if you are unsure about which platform you will use then perhaps you should consider a back with an adapter system which will let you use multiple platforms.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=149669\")
Which is why the Mamiya RB + Phase seems to be the way to go for me. Looking at Ebay, my RB system is worth little more than the price of a crap point and shoot digital. Incredible, but true. So, I'm stuck with it. Only problem is, the glass isn't top notch - how many times did I read that the Mamiya glass overly relied on the size of the 6x7 tranny! But, replacing two bodies and six lenses, plus extras is very costly. Also, I could use a Phase on my Sinar too.
The point about the price differential between MFDB and SLR digital is well made. In film days most of us shot medium-format film most of the time - 80%+ at a guess. Press guys at one (35mm) end and a select bunch of studio (4x5 & 10x8) guys at the other end were the exception. So, the Holy Grail for most of us is a digital equivalent to that MF film. If Canon and Nikon give it to us, then the MF digital crowd will be in trouble, in my opinion.
On the point of "openess"...........think of it this way............
Can you run Windows on your Dell, Acer, HP, IBM, Sony, Toshiba etc...computer? Oh, yes you can! And who is offering similar flexibility in the MFDB world without bothering to make the cameras themselves (just like MSF don't bother making computers)? Well, isn't it interesting that they're going into partnership together?
[a href=\"http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2007/oct07/10-26PhaseOnePR.mspx]http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2...PhaseOnePR.mspx[/url]
Phase, it seems to me, have adopted a proven business model. If nothing else, I can sell my four year old Phase back (if I had one) to a hell of a lot more camera users than I can my Hassie or any other make.
I would dearly love 4-shot, but I can't afford it and I can't afford to replace an entire system, as I've already said.
Looks like I've made my mind up!
D.
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Which is why the Mamiya RB + Phase seems to be the way to go for me. Looking at Ebay, my RB system is worth little more than the price of a crap point and shoot digital. Incredible, but true. So, I'm stuck with it. Only problem is, the glass isn't top notch - how many times did I read that the Mamiya glass overly relied on the size of the 6x7 tranny! But, replacing two bodies and six lenses, plus extras is very costly. Also, I could use a Phase on my Sinar too.
The point about the price differential between MFDB and SLR digital is well made. In film days most of us shot medium-format film most of the time - 80%+ at a guess. Press guys at one (35mm) end and a select bunch of studio (4x5 & 10x8) guys at the other end were the exception. So, the Holy Grail for most of us is a digital equivalent to that MF film. If Canon and Nikon give it to us, then the MF digital crowd will be in trouble, in my opinion.
On the point of "openess"...........think of it this way............
Can you run Windows on your Dell, Acer, HP, IBM, Sony, Toshiba etc...computer? Oh, yes you can! And who is offering similar flexibility in the MFDB world without bothering to make the cameras themselves (just like MSF don't bother making computers)? Well, isn't it interesting that they're going into partnership together? See the link in an earlier post of mine above.
Phase, it seems to me, have adopted a proven business model. If nothing else, I can sell my four year old Phase back (if I had one) to a hell of a lot more camera users than I can my Hassie or any other make.
I would dearly love 4-shot, but I can't afford it and I can't afford to replace an entire system, as I've already said.
Looks like I've made my mind up!
D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149767\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why not have a look at the CF line of Imacon/Hasselblad. They are being offered both second-hand as well as refurbished and do use an adapter-plate system.
They are in the same price line as the other backs but can be upgraded to 4shot in a later stage for a reasonable price.
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Dear Steve,
I have to repeat once again what has been said so many times: no, there is nobody to prevent someone else to make an adapter to the Hy6. But the word to who is part of the Hy6 project belongs to Jenoptik, certainly not to PO. Leaf is part of this project, as well as F&H. PO is not, as communicated since long.
Many things have been said and claimed about PO "not willing first", "not having the finances for", "not this" or "not that", then all of sudden deciding to "support" this camera, whatever "support" means, all this suggesting that it is PO who has the word here. It is not so.
Pardon me, but this is all BS: there are contracts, as one can imagine, between different companies involved in this project and those contracts are and will be respected.
There is no "tying arrangement" as far as Sinar/Jenoptik are concerned: anybody can order and get a single Hy6 body separately as well as any lens and accessory for this camera system. This has been communicated since the begining.
I am, and Sinar/Jenoptik are not responsible for Leaf pricing and this should be asked/said to them directly.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry, you've expressed that sentiment many times here, and I don't understand why. Absent a very broad, enforceable patent that completely precludes Phase from interfacing to the Hy6 (which is unlikely in light of the extensive prior art of interfacing backs and bodies), there is no way that Jenoptic can prevent Phase from making backs that work on their bodies. Also, it is illegal per se for Jenoptic/Sinar/Leaf to attempt a "tying arrangement" such as Leaf has in their current price list to attempt to tie buying a body to already having bought a back. See, for example, Fairchild v. Data General, where the Supreme Court slapped down Data General for doing that. So they can't keep Phase customers from buying Hy6 bodies to use with their Phase backs.
It seems to me that it is indeed up to Phase to decide.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149736\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Um... how about up to 1/1000 flash sync speed?
Ever looked through a medium format WLF? So much better for composition and manual focusing.
If the new Canon comes out with 22MP, the DOF will be narrower, and focus even more critical. I don't have enough faith in Canon AF to be able to rely on it (and some shoots require manual focus anyway), and trying to manually focus through a Canon viewfinder on a 22MP body would be almost a waste of time, imo.
How about viewfinder options? It's great to have a WLF on my Rollei which I can swap for a 45 or 90 degree prism, which can be rotated too. This way you can put the camera on the ground and still see through it, or against a back wall if you have to.
How about quality of the lenses? Medium format lenses have already proven themselves up to 39MP. Canon admitted that they will need a new improved range of lenses to handle even 22MP. From my experience of the Rollei lenses, I have no qualms about using them wide open.
How about the killer app (for some people) of adding the digital back to a view camera and getting all the movements you could want? Or merely removing the back for easy sensor cleaning?
Finally, and this is a contentious one, but there is definitely a positive psychological effect on many clients when you pull out something which is more professional and exotic looking than what they have at home.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149765\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Everything you say is absolutely true. But I didn't have the current Canon offering in mind, rather what might be just around the corner and not from Canon. 35mm viewfinders have been improving after a dismal era of inattention brought on by autofocus -also not all MF systems have stellar viewfinders and leaf shutters.
I expect we might soon see some real innovation from one or 2 players in new designed for digital platforms that don't quite fit MF or 35mm classification.
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hankg,
Are you referring to the rumored Leica R10:
http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicaref...7/msg00146.html (http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicareflex/10-2007/msg00146.html)
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hankg,
Are you referring to the rumored Leica R10:
http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicaref...7/msg00146.html (http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicareflex/10-2007/msg00146.html)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Or the rumored dramatically different Nikon in the works. Both the Leica and Nikon are the subject of wild speculation but it's time we started seeing designs not based on the legacy of film formats in digital. We'll see if the speculation about either of these products turns out to be any more then internet hot air.
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Here's the link to the rumored Nikon stuff:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=24836605 (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=24836605)
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Um... how about up to 1/1000 flash sync speed?
How about quality of the lenses? Medium format lenses have already proven themselves up to 39MP. Canon admitted that they will need a new improved range of lenses to handle even 22MP. From my experience of the Rollei lenses, I have no qualms about using them wide open.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149765\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Canon makes a lot of lenses. Many of them crap but the 35/1.4, 85/1.2, 135/2 and discontinued 180/1.8 are as good or better then anything thats come out of Zeiss or Leica and with 35/1.4, 50/1.2 and 85/1.2 DOF can be as narrow as you want it to be. So Canon can certainly produce lenses to match anything out there given the business reason to do so and the right price point.
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Take a deep breath...now exhale. I'm sure Mr. Lawery did not intend to lead you to believe that Phase One has announced that they will have a back for the Hy6. They did not say, in the memo referenced, that they will "support" the Hy6 camera. Mr. Lawery correctly stated that they now support the concept of the Hy6.
What's the difference? Well, Phase One states in the memo "Up till now, Phase One has been sceptical towards the viability of the product strategy behind the Hy6 camera". Now, however, Phase One has decided that the concept has merit and feels there is a "good basis for reaching an agreement". The memo says they have had "discussions with the new management of Jenoptik, the owner of the Hy6" and "expect we can update you again in November on this issue".
Now you can read into this whatever you like, but being "sceptical towards the viability" and now deciding to "support the Hy6 concept" is a bit short of a done deal or a product announcement.
I would save the "I told you so" for a later date. After an agreement has actually been reached, would probably be a better time to break out the party hats. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but it would be good to hear from Jenoptik before you put away the umbrellas.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149708\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I know that curiosity killed the cat but who are you mysterious TechieTalkie... How and why you know so much? Step into the light tell the world who you work for.
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I know that curiosity killed the cat but who are you mysterious TechieTalkie... How and why you know so much? Step into the light tell the world who you work for.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149801\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
check his posts...not a single post NOT about the dealings of hasselblad/defending even the most questionable policies....and nothing in any way related to actual photography....
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check his posts...not a single post NOT about the dealings of hasselblad/defending even the most questionable policies....and nothing in any way related to actual photography....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149805\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not true. If you did look at all of my posts, you would see that I have discussed issues regarding Sinar, Leaf, Phase One, Mamiya and other topics.
Try reading with your eyes instead of your emotions.
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Paul,
I must say that TechTalk, whoever he is, has never denigrated any other brand, neither Sinar, nor the others, in the contrary. IMO it doesn't really matter what is his name and I really don't care, as long as his posts are accurate and well documented. This has been the case for what I have seen and read from him so far.
I am also for openess and not really a defender of anonymity, but especially for posts who have doubtful and obvious mal-intentioned information.
But that's my opinion.
Best regards,
Thierry
check his posts...not a single post NOT about the dealings of hasselblad/defending even the most questionable policies....and nothing in any way related to actual photography....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149805\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Paul,
I must say that TechTalk, whoever he is, has never denigrated any other brand, neither Sinar, nor the others, in the contrary. IMO it doesn't really matter what is his name and I really don't care, as long as his posts are accurate and well documented. This has been the case for what I have seen and read from him so far.
I am also for openess and not really a defender of anonymity, but especially for posts who have doubtful and obvious mal-intentioned information.
But that's my opinion.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149811\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
thierry...i know who you are...you post here under your name as a sinar rep....techtalk has been here for a couple of months, and contrary to what he claims, ALL his posts are regarding/defending hasselblad....check it out...not a single post about anything else...honestly i don't care if someone makes it his hobby to take time to explain hasselblads politics and business in great detail here but i do find it a bit strange....to me he (or gasp!, she?) sound like a hasselblad spokesperson, often sounding like someone from their PR room....if he/she is not in any way affiliated with hasselblad, why go through this? i mean i feel strongly about my choice of equipment, i spent a lot of time and money making those decisions and i share my experiences here.......i have not read one single line form him actually describing HIS camera, HIS photos....i don't even know if he owns a MF system....everybody else in hereshares what they experience with their system...we know who owns what and can read the posts according to that....
techtalk has actually accused me of being emotional in my posts....well why on earth wouldn't i be? this is supposed to be a photography forum!
i truly appreciate your and yaya's input in this forum...as official spokespersons you can give a discussion or rumors some credibility.....
to me, based on his posts here, techtalk is either an undercover hasselblad employee or a techie who has never taken a pic in his life, so either way his posts won't help me with why i come her in the first place.....share experiences regarding photography...
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contrary to what he claims, ALL his posts are regarding/defending hasselblad....check it out...not a single post about anything else...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149835\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You should "check it out", because you're still wrong concerning my posts.
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techtalk has actually accused me of being emotional in my posts....well why on earth wouldn't i be? this is supposed to be a photography forum!
i truly appreciate your and yaya's input in this forum...as official spokespersons you can give a discussion or rumors some credibility.....
to me, based on his posts here, techtalk is either an undercover hasselblad employee or a techie who has never taken a pic in his life, so either way his posts won't help me with why i come her in the first place.....share experiences regarding photography...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149835\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can surely understand you being emotional about your art. I can also understand you being emotional about your own equipment. What I cannot understand is why you are so emotional and constantly making snide remarks about OTHER PEOPLE's equipment that you have never even touched. This is what goes on all the time over at DP Review where they all sign in with the type of camera and the lenses they own under their posting name. (I used to never trust anyone over 30, now it's anyone who lists his equipment under his web posting name.)
Who cares who TechTalk is? He could wear a mask and sign in under the name Lone Ranger for all I care if his posts are clear, unemotional, and trying in good faith to be fair, informative and well balanced, which I believe to be the case. His only "sin" is that he often provides a counterpoint to the drumbeat of the sniping, uninformed comments about Hasselblad products and its management.
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Who cares who TechTalk is? He could wear a mask and sign in under the name Lone Ranger for all I care if his posts are clear, unemotional, and trying in good faith to be fair, informative and well balanced, which I believe to be the case. His only "sin" is that he often provides a counterpoint to the drumbeat of the sniping, uninformed comments about Hasselblad products and its management.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149846\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Fair enough but the secret identities of people has always been great mysteries. TechTalk's analysis and writing is good reading but the source of his information is a mystery.
Other's have been accused of spreading rumors and their credibility and the source of their claims has been questioned. So why not TechTalk's? Is his reasoning so much better.
Who are you deep throat? asks "Curious George"
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Fair enough but the secret identities of people has always been great mysteries. TechTalk's analysis and writing is good reading but the source of his information is a mystery.
Other's have been accused of spreading rumors and their credibility and the source of their claims has been questioned. So why not TechTalk's? Is his reasoning so much better.
Who are you deep throat? asks "Curious George"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149854\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have always maintained that full identity disclosure is the way to go. It certainly tempers some flying off the handle behavior. A face and a name go a long way towards reminding posters that there are real people - not just words - behind these posts.
That said, it's also possible some of these posters - perhaps Tech Tool - do work for someone, and that they are not allowed to publicly disclose that they are employed, or not even allowed at all, and are doing it at some risk.
In these cases, I understand to a degree, and only ask that the information is accurate if cloak and dagger is necessary.
But it's so much better to know that Foto-Z is Graham - Hi Graham! It forces us to deal with a person instead of attaching an identity - usually negative, especially if we disagree - to some obscure "name handle".
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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maybe?? (http://www.hasselblad.com/about-hasselblad/jobs/technical-supporter.aspx) (the timings match)
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Fair enough but the secret identities of people has always been great mysteries. TechTalk's analysis and writing is good reading but the source of his information is a mystery.
Other's have been accused of spreading rumors and their credibility and the source of their claims has been questioned. So why not TechTalk's? Is his reasoning so much better.
Who are you deep throat? asks "Curious George"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149854\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ex Tech for Helix? Knowing everybody there for the last 15 years I can narrow the list to 2-3 names especially that Helix was never known for having to many eloquent and knowledgeable staff members. But truly does his name really matter?
Andre
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Ex Tech for Helix? Knowing everybody there for the last 15 years I can narrow the list to 2-3 names especially that Helix was never known for having to many eloquent and knowledgeable staff members. But truly does his name really matter?
Andre
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149889\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
andre....i don't know you personally, but you have influenced my buying desicions for years (since the RG forum).....based on what you shoot, how you shoot it and with what you shoot it....honestly i don't care if your name wasn't andre at all, but i know your gear and your work....that is what counts, that is why i value your opinion.....
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Fair enough but the secret identities of people has always been great mysteries. TechTalk's analysis and writing is good reading but the source of his information is a mystery.
Other's have been accused of spreading rumors and their credibility and the source of their claims has been questioned. So why not TechTalk's? Is his reasoning so much better.
Who are you deep throat? asks "Curious George"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149854\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Oh let poor Techie be. He/She gives us useful information and writes so well on top of that. He's been very good lately, let us not scare him away. Tonight in North America it is Halloween -- a festival where people dress up in costumes and pretend to be someone or something else; usually something scary, but not always. So let us respect Tech and let him/her wear his disguise. As someone else said, perhaps Tech cannot reveal himself because to do so could affect his position at his workplace. It is more useful to have him here than not, even if he is disguised. One day Tech will come out of the closet and reveal himself and surprise us, but for now let's enjoy his contribution. If it makes it easier for you, pretend that he works for HB. But in the meantime, please don't scare him/her away.
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andre....i don't know you personally, but you have influenced my buying desicions for years (since the RG forum).....based on what you shoot, how you shoot it and with what you shoot it....honestly i don't care if your name wasn't andre at all, but i know your gear and your work....that is what counts, that is why i value your opinion.....
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=149895\")
Paul,
Thank you for your kind words. You definitely made my day and made the time spend on LL even more meaningful. Respect is very much mutual. I just wish I had more time to contribute but between two full time jobs and four kids ( youngest just turn two ) I can just afford few minutes a day. Thank you again.
[a href=\"http://AndreNapier.com]http://AndreNapier.com[/url]
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I know that curiosity killed the cat but who are you mysterious TechieTalkie... How and why you know so much? Step into the light tell the world who you work for.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149801\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Fair enough but the secret identities of people has always been great mysteries. TechTalk's analysis and writing is good reading but the source of his information is a mystery.
Other's have been accused of spreading rumors and their credibility and the source of their claims has been questioned. So why not TechTalk's? Is his reasoning so much better.
Who are you deep throat? asks "Curious George"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149854\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry, but my posts will remain anonymous for my own reasons. If you have questions regarding any information that I provide, let me know and I'll do my best to provide satisfactory links to available source material. I have no interest in rumors, so I won't be posting any gossip–but I will challenge or correct these kinds of post at times.
As for credibility, I've noticed that having a name attached to a post doesn't make falsehoods less false or facts more true. I would encourage you to investigate for yourself anything that is of real interest or concern to you and not to rely on message boards as anything more than a starting point for your own digging up of information and research. The web can be a great source of information, but you will also find plenty of misinformation, opinion and guess-work presented as fact, fiction mixed together with fact (those are always a pain to unravel) and sometimes just plain fantasy.
My only interest in posting here is to provide accurate technical information, discuss business aspects of the industry, correct misinformation, challenge assumptions and rumors and on occasion to add my perception or perspective. Any or all of this you are free to dismiss based on my anonymity.
I'm not here to criticize any products based on subjective personal preferences. I'm not here to offer personal advice on techniques or equipment choices. I wish to be as objective as possible in observations and perspectives that I post. I'm not going to offer any clues to satisfy curiosity regarding my identity, but I will state once again that I do not work for any manufacturer and never have.
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i am sure sinar and leaf get their bodies (more or less) for free in order to sell lenses....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145960\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
On the first page of this thread, we get this assertion from you–one you're sure about. I really had hoped that jumping to conclusions wasn't going to be habit forming.
fuji builds the hasselblad lenses (as a hasselblad employee you should know that)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=145965\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But then on page 2 of this thread, you rush to judgement about my source of income. Incorrectly, I might add.
check his posts...not a single post NOT about the dealings of hasselblad/defending even the most questionable policies....and nothing in any way related to actual photography....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149805\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Then you decide to make this completely false statement. Why? I have no idea.
techtalk has been here for a couple of months, and contrary to what he claims, ALL his posts are regarding/defending hasselblad....check it out...not a single post about anything else...to me, based on his posts here, techtalk is either an undercover hasselblad employee or a techie who has never taken a pic in his life, so either way his posts won't help me with why i come her in the first place.....share experiences regarding photography...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149835\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Then you repeat this falsehood regarding my posts again. Is it in the hope that if you repeat it enough it will become true?
Oh, I did like the "undercover" reference in this round of assertions that I work for Hasselblad. It sounds so conspiratorial and exciting! Ahhh... and then the knife appears, "or a techie who has never taken a pic in his life". Have you thought about writing mystery novels? You do have a gift for fantasy.
Either way, I'm not here to help you or share experiences with you. I'm here to help other people that just might believe rash statements, like the first one you made on this thread regarding the "free" bodies that Leaf and Sinar get. There are innocent and gullible people that use the internet, after all. Some might even read your posts.
My guess is that it is my challenging your assumptions and assertions, on this and other threads, that has you attacking me–and not my anonymity.
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I know that curiosity killed the cat but who are you mysterious TechieTalkie... How and why you know so much? Step into the light tell the world who you work for.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149801\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Maybe TechTalk is MarkT in disguise? ????? "Okay Mark gigs up ... take off that mask... "
Not Mark? Rat's ... well I miss Mark's humor, but both of you are talking sense here and I like that.
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TechTalk, I did read all of your posts and I have always thought of you as a man in retirement who likes to cruise the internet for information, in order to create a comprehendable version of reality. Most of your info seems to come from open sources and that also could explain why Paul thinks you are overly Hasselblad oriented. There is after all much more Hassy info available than Leaf info, for example. But obviously you have been triggered lately to dig into the sources of more "obscure" brands. Given the amount of posts from you since you signed up halfway last August and the growth of the links to internet sources you must almost have a full day's task being active here. Since most of us don't have that much time to spend I would say it's a nice addition to many discussions, altough your tone sometimes reminds me of a protestant Reverend. But that's a personal itch, I guess.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149951\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Gee, I haven't imagined what your life-style is like at all. I'm flattered that you took the time to create a mental image of me!
I've been in the professional photography business for decades, but I'm still years from retirement. I do manage to find free time to discuss topics that I find interesting. I've noticed others do as well; do you picture us all huddled together in the nursing home over our keyboards?
From time to time, I also manage to wade into the cesspool of misinformation (that is unfortunately also part of the otherwise useful internet) in order to help clean it up a bit (part-time janitor duties). But only when my nurse is free to help me in and out of the pool.
Now... enough about mysterious anonymous me. Can we get back to discussing the future of digital imaging for the professional market please?
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From time to time, I also manage to wade into the cesspool of misinformation (that is unfortunately also part of the otherwise useful internet) in order to help clean it up a bit (part-time janitor duties). But only when my nurse is free to help me in and out of the pool.
Hi
In the movie "Pulp Fiction" they had Mr Clean. Just a joke. Keep up the good posts & we welcome your knowledge.
Denis
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Lets keep our priorities straight: while names and more disclosure would be nice, real discussion and sharing of information is more important.
The quality of the writing (and thinking) is thus key. To this end, pss, techtalk, and other key members of this forum are valuable. Thank you for your time.
Geoff
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On the first page of this thread, we get this assertion from you–one you're sure about. I really had hoped that jumping to conclusions wasn't going to be habit forming.
But then on page 2 of this thread, you rush to judgement about my source of income. Incorrectly, I might add.
Then you decide to make this completely false statement. Why? I have no idea.
Then you repeat this falsehood regarding my posts again. Is it in the hope that if you repeat it enough it will become true?
Oh, I did like the "undercover" reference in this round of assertions that I work for Hasselblad. It sounds so conspiratorial and exciting! Ahhh... and then the knife appears, "or a techie who has never taken a pic in his life". Have you thought about writing mystery novels? You do have a gift for fantasy.
Either way, I'm not here to help you or share experiences with you. I'm here to help other people that just might believe rash statements, like the first one you made on this thread regarding the "free" bodies that Leaf and Sinar get. There are innocent and gullible people that use the internet, after all. Some might even read your posts.
My guess is that it is my challenging your assumptions and assertions, on this and other threads, that has you attacking me–and not my anonymity.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149960\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think you guys should fly into your own " I'm real and always right" thread because this one is about the future of phaseone. No offense
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I fully agree, as well for TechTalk as for Paul, 2 much valuable and interesting persons, as well as many others.
Thierry
Lets keep our priorities straight: while names and more disclosure would be nice, real discussion and sharing of information is more important.
The quality of the writing (and thinking) is thus key. To this end, pss, techtalk, and other key members of this forum are valuable. Thank you for your time.
Geoff
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149995\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I fully agree, as well for TechTalk as for Paul, 2 much valuable and interesting persons, as well as many others.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150005\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What I like most about this forum is that people who actually *do* things write about what *they* do. For instance I design color processing algorithms, and I sometimes discuss color. People who make landscape images explain how they are working with their special equipment. etc. I wish more people shared their real-world experiences here ...
Edmund
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i may be totally wrong and this is really getting silly, but in this forum i can only provide opinions and i only look for opinions....thierry as a sinar official can provide facts and official statements regarding sinar and its dealings....all others can simply provide opinions...so it might be entertaining to hear someones writings and opinions but i have no clue who he is and what these opinions are based on so i have to take that with a grain of salt....to go on and believe someone's writings as facts is plain crazy to me.....
i mean we live in times when the white house press secretary put her name under statements and announces "facts" that we all know aren't (there is no torture at quantanamo,....the president has a plan for global warming,..........)...very eloquently of course....
and here i should just believe everything someone who won't even give his name?
again i don't care about the name, just tell me what cameras you have used in the last year, what pics you have taken....if i want "facts", i prefer google at least i can see the source there most of the time......
anyway i am wasting my and everybodies time with this and really..... anyone is wondering why the actual PHOTOGRAPHERS are leaving here? this idiotic discussion gets to 10 screens and ends up with stupid bickering and i am getting sucked in every time because i care about integrity.....
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Don't worry too much Paul
You are right everything is an opinion even the so believed facts and should be treated as such. People should not take themselves so seriously, the world would be a lot more habitable.
OTOH, I sometimes cannot refrain myself from smiling when looking over the bickering. It does show you that we are dealing with 'real people' doesn't it?
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There are a wide variety of people that post on this board and an even wider variety of people that only view what is posted. It is clear that individuals utilize this message board for a wide variety of reasons. Some are seeking answers to technical questions, some are interested in information on new products (or existing or older products), some want to discuss the future directions that the industry or manufacturers may take, some want to share their personal experiences with tools and techniques... the list could go on and on–as the needs of individuals vary greatly. These are all good reasons for utilizing the valuable service provided here.
Unfortunately, there is also a negative side to open forums such as this. There are those that are eager to post rumors with no basis in fact. Some will post misinformation or misleading information. This list could be long as well.
The suggestion that everything is an opinion is troubling to me. It leaves the door wide open to post any kind of false assertion and then hide behind the claim that it is just an opinion. The world is made up of both opinion and fact. They are not interchangeable. 1+1 will always equal 2, and no opinion will change that fact. I'm reminded of the saying that "everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but we are not entitled to our own facts". The willingness and ability of individuals to provide their name and examples of their work is certainly of value in evaluating recommendations on techniques and tools used to produce images, but will never make a false assertion or misinformation more true or more accurate. Facts will remain facts regardless of opinion.
When caring about integrity also includes misinformation and false assertions masked as opinion–I'll keep a safe distance as well as my anonymity.
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To continue the original discussion, Phase One recently made additional statements to their partners regarding future plans. In brief:
- The new Phase One camera platform is being developed with a camera partner and they have agreed to release a more in-depth update early this month.
- Phase One has begun stocking up on a large range of new and used medium-format camera bodies. The purpose is to provide a minimum 3-year camera body supply guarantee (for replacement of damaged customer camera bodies that are not repairable) to purchasers of new Phase One backs. The bodies covered are Contax 645, Fuji GX 645 and GX680, Hasselblad V and H1/H2, Mamiya 645 and RZ/RB. Details to follow in the next couple of weeks.
- Phase One feels confident that they can add back important digital back functionality with the H2F. They are awaiting final production H2F cameras to test their concepts.
- Phase One will have a promotion for a reduced price on P+ backs for Mamiya 645AFD II. Further details to follow soon.
This summarizes additional details not previously mentioned earlier in this thread.
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[Deleted]
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To continue the original discussion, Phase One recently made additional statements to their partners regarding future plans. In brief:
- The new Phase One camera platform is being developed with a camera partner and they have agreed to release a more in-depth update early this month.
- Phase One has begun stocking up on a large range of new and used medium-format camera bodies. The purpose is to provide a minimum 3-year camera body supply guarantee (for replacement of damaged customer camera bodies that are not repairable) to purchasers of new Phase One backs. The bodies covered are Contax 645, Fuji GX 645 and GX680, Hasselblad V and H1/H2, Mamiya 645 and RZ/RB. Details to follow in the next couple of weeks.
- Phase One feels confident that they can add back important digital back functionality with the H2F. They are awaiting final production H2F cameras to test their concepts.
- Phase One will have a promotion for a reduced price on P+ backs for Mamiya 645AFD II. Further details to follow soon.
This summarizes additional details not previously mentioned earlier in this thread.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150362\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
Are they doing something with Mamiya?????? Who knows, we will have to wait and see.
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- Phase One has begun stocking up on a large range of new and used medium-format camera bodies. The purpose is to provide a minimum 3-year camera body supply guarantee (for replacement of damaged customer camera bodies that are not repairable) to purchasers of new Phase One backs. The bodies covered are Contax 645, Fuji GX 645 and GX680, Hasselblad V and H1/H2, Mamiya 645 and RZ/RB. Details to follow in the next couple of weeks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150362\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
GREAT! Who do I talk to at Phase because I have a wonderful GX680 III system that I haven't used in 3+ years that I really want to turn into a H camera! Yes I have considered putting a back on the 680 but I am starting to think it just doesn't make sense.
Ken Gehle
Atlanta
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- The new Phase One camera platform is being developed with a camera partner and they have agreed to release a more in-depth update early this month.
There's not too many camera system left alone...
- Phase One has begun stocking up on a large range of new and used medium-format camera bodies. The purpose is to provide a minimum 3-year camera body supply guarantee (for replacement of damaged customer camera bodies that are not repairable) to purchasers of new Phase One backs. The bodies covered are Contax 645, Fuji GX 645 and GX680, Hasselblad V and H1/H2, Mamiya 645 and RZ/RB. Details to follow in the next couple of weeks.
That's a smart move but more details are needed for what "bodies not repairable" is because some models listed are still mfgtered (Mam at least in DII version)
- Phase One feels confident that they can add back important digital back functionality with the H2F. They are awaiting final production H2F cameras to test their concepts.
That's competition!
- Phase One will have a promotion for a reduced price on P+ backs for Mamiya 645AFD II. Further details to follow soon.
will it be for back alone and just bundle...
Good Phase is fighting Blad strategie...
TalkTech may I ask for your source
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- The new Phase One camera platform is being developed with a camera partner and they have agreed to release a more in-depth update early this month.
- Phase One has begun stocking up on a large range of new and used medium-format camera bodies. The purpose is to provide a minimum 3-year camera body supply guarantee (for replacement of damaged customer camera bodies that are not repairable) to purchasers of new Phase One backs. The bodies covered are Contax 645, Fuji GX 645 and GX680, Hasselblad V and H1/H2, Mamiya 645 and RZ/RB. Details to follow in the next couple of weeks.
- Phase One feels confident that they can add back important digital back functionality with the H2F. They are awaiting final production H2F cameras to test their concepts.
- Phase One will have a promotion for a reduced price on P+ backs for Mamiya 645AFD II. Further details to follow soon.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150362\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Wohooooooo! If this turns out to be half of what is stated above, then nice going phase!
[attachment=3700:attachment]
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- Phase One has begun stocking up on a large range of new and used medium-format camera bodies. The purpose is to provide a minimum 3-year camera body supply guarantee (for replacement of damaged customer camera bodies that are not repairable) to purchasers of new Phase One backs. The bodies covered are Contax 645, Fuji GX 645 and GX680, Hasselblad V and H1/H2, Mamiya 645 and RZ/RB. Details to follow in the next couple of weeks.
They announced it yesterday in their email newsletter. Here's the quote from the email: "Phase One further invests in the medium format with a minimum 3 year Camera Body Supply Guarantee for all Phase One supported platforms! If a photographer, for whatever reason, damages his/her camera body in a way that is beyond repair at an official manufacturer’s repair center, Phase One will supply the customer with a similar camera body for the original purchase price that Phase One paid for the camera. There is no mark-up, stocking fee or handling charge added. This program is valid for all customers who have purchased a Phase One back on or after October 9, 2007. The following camera platforms are included: Contax 645, Fuji GX 645 and GX 680, Hasselblad V and H1/H2, Mamiya 645 and RZ/RB. We will also do all we can to help any customer who has purchased a Phase One digital back before October 9, 2007 if a camera body issue arises."
- Phase One will have a promotion for a reduced price on P+ backs for Mamiya 645AFD II. Further details to follow soon.
This was also announced yesterday in their email newsletter. Buy a new P+ back and for a limited time, get a Mamiya 645 AFD II body for FREE. Of course, since Phase One has always been known to discount heavily, it's hard to say whether they'll be as willing to deal on the price of the back with the free camera body as incentive, so will a buyer necessarily come out ahead? Probably yes, but who knows. Here's their exact wording: "Limited time offer: Phase One will include a Mamiya 645 AFD II camera body for all customers purchasing a new P+ Value Added or Classic digital back for Mamiya AFD."
They apparently are also going to announce soon a deal on Mamiya lenses. Here's what the email said on that: "In addition, we are working on a special deal for purchasing a new lens with this offer. Details on the Mamiya lens offer will be available soon."
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TalkTech may I ask for your source
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150398\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The source is a memo from the CEO of Phase One to Phase One employees and dealers that was sent the 22nd of October. Even though Phase One obviously wanted to leak this information to the public, I'm not comfortable with posting a copy of the memo or quoting more than summaries of it until Phase One is ready to make more public statements. Phase One dealers have had this information for well over a week and since all I had seen was one very brief reference, I though that I would share more information from the memo. It is the same memo I referenced in regard to discussions with Jenoptik on the Hy6.
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comment Phases bizzare policy of snapping used and end of line goods - seems like they dont have any tricks up thier sleeve that we will see soon..
S
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comment Phases bizzare policy of snapping used and end of line goods - seems like they dont have any tricks up thier sleeve that we will see soon..
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150425\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well I think that's great if you own one of those cameras like I do.
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It is a very unorthodox move that does show a lot of commitment towards their customers. Kudos to Phase I would say.
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It is a very unorthodox move that does show a lot of commitment towards their customers. Kudos to Phase I would say.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150442\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Im not saying its a bad thing
Its a good thing - I own an H1 - I wonder if they will sell me one if that one goes south even though I have a sinar back
I was more commenting on the speculation there has been about fixing to a Hy6, or Phase buying Contax etc
If they were doing those things behind the scenes with an announcement soon I dont think they would have made this move
I imagine that sinar dont want phase on the Hy6 and the contax option is kind of hindered by the flash synch and (I believe) slow AF which doesnt make it a competeing system anyway even if they had access
as I said my comment
S
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Im not saying its a bad thing
..........If they were doing those things behind the scenes with an announcement soon I dont think they would have made this move
I imagine that sinar dont want phase on the Hy6 and the contax option is kind of hindered by the flash synch and (I believe) slow AF which doesnt make it a competeing system anyway even if they had access
as I said my comment
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150444\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i'm not sure i agree with your conclusion regarding activities "behind the scene."
from a marketing perspective, there are more people out here shooting with "mix and match" bodies and backs than with a matched set. many of us are quite content with our current camera bodies and lenses and may not want to invest in a new camera and set of lenses. what phase is effectively saying is "we have your back" ( no pun intended) something which no one else has stepped up to the plate and said as the landscape changes. as a mamiya user, it certainly did get my attention. the phase announcements do not in any way preclude them from offering their own body or having discussions with jenoptik regarding the hy6. for the people just getting their feet wet with mfd, a mint contax 645 kit for under $2 and a refurbed back, may be much more attractive than some of the integrated bundles which are being offered.
interestingly enough even with the afi due to arrive, leaf america has been offering the following mamiya related promo:
"Special Offer – Between August 1, 2007 and December 31, 2007, with
the purchase of any new Leaf Aptus or Aptus S digital back in Mamiya AFD mount, photographers will receive a Mamiya 645AFD II camera free-of-charge (a $2,990 value) directly from Leaf America.
In addition, Photographers can purchase the first lens at regular price and receive a second lens, of equal or lesser value, for FREE. There are no restrictions on lens selections, it is completely based on what the photographer needs. The second lens must be equal to or less than the value of the first lens. (Up to an additional $2,495 savings) Orders for Mamiya product must be placed at the same time as the back on a single purchase order."
i have to say i was surprised to see this leaf promo (and yes i do understand the relationship between the mac group which markets mamiya in the u.s and leaf america) given the anticipated arrival of the afi.
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i'm not sure i agree with your conclusion regarding activities "behind the scene."
from a marketing perspective, there are more people out here shooting with "mix and match" bodies and backs than with a matched set. many of us are quite content with our current camera bodies and lenses and may not want to invest in a new camera and set of lenses. what phase is effectively saying is "we have your back" ( no pun intended) something which no one else has stepped up to the plate and said as the landscape changes. as a mamiya user, it certainly did get my attention. the phase announcements do not in any way preclude them from offering their own body or having discussions with jenoptik regarding the hy6. for the people just getting their feet wet with mfd, a mint contax 645 kit for under $2 and a refurbed back, may be much more attractive than some of the integrated bundles which are being offered.
interestingly enough even with the afi due to arrive, leaf america has been offering the following mamiya related promo:
"Special Offer – Between August 1, 2007 and December 31, 2007, with
the purchase of any new Leaf Aptus or Aptus S digital back in Mamiya AFD mount, photographers will receive a Mamiya 645AFD II camera free-of-charge (a $2,990 value) directly from Leaf America.
In addition, Photographers can purchase the first lens at regular price and receive a second lens, of equal or lesser value, for FREE. There are no restrictions on lens selections, it is completely based on what the photographer needs. The second lens must be equal to or less than the value of the first lens. (Up to an additional $2,495 savings) Orders for Mamiya product must be placed at the same time as the back on a single purchase order."
i have to say i was surprised to see this leaf promo (and yes i do understand the relationship between the mac group which markets mamiya in the u.s and leaf america) given the anticipated arrival of the afi.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150455\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The strategy of offering an integrated digital camera platform for medium format is a long term strategy for users who never experienced the joy of medium format film cameras and who are unlikely to romance that notion. While there are some great bargains for defunct film cameras, I believe as we go further, integrated solutions will offer more and more and become the clear choice for future photographers who seek alternatives to 35mm, and this may indeed include Phase One integrated solutions at some point.
I agree about the Leaf with free Mamiya promo - I thought that was odd too. Perhaps the US distributor (Mac Group) has excess inventory they need to move. I wonder if this promotion is happening in other parts of the world where Leaf and Mamiya don't have the same distribution.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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The strategy of offering an integrated digital camera platform for medium format is a long term strategy for users who never experienced the joy of medium format film cameras and who are unlikely to romance that notion. While there are some great bargains for defunct film cameras, I believe as we go further, integrated solutions will offer more and more and become the clear choice for future photographers who seek alternatives to 35mm, and this may indeed include Phase One integrated solutions at some point.
I agree about the Leaf with free Mamiya promo - I thought that was odd too. Perhaps the US distributor (Mac Group) has excess inventory they need to move. I wonder if this promotion is happening in other parts of the world where Leaf and Mamiya don't have the same distribution.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150457\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
Down here in Sydney the Mamiya agency became available last year & L&P photo picked it up. They are also the agents for Phase One. That was announced in Jan 07. Sun studios is the agent for Sinar/Leaf & the Hy6 camera. Back to the US ,Hallmark school of photography purchased 250 Aptus 22 backs ,July 2006( Mamiya mount). From what I understand the students have to purchase the Mamiya 645 AFD camera. To me this makes sense as this is more affordable for the students plus it gets them using Mamiya from the start. Back to Phase One, from what I am hearing from L&P is that PO is working closer (talking, better communication) with Mamiya. Also we have to take into account that the new owners of Mamiya took the company over on Sept 1/06. We will just have to wait & see. If Phase One really wants to shake up the market, get behind the ZD camera & rebuild it @ a very competitive price.
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The strategy of offering an integrated digital camera platform for medium format is a long term strategy for users who never experienced the joy of medium format film cameras and who are unlikely to romance that notion. While there are some great bargains for defunct film cameras, I believe as we go further, integrated solutions will offer more and more and become the clear choice for future photographers who seek alternatives to 35mm, and this may indeed include Phase One integrated solutions at some point.
I agree about the Leaf with free Mamiya promo - I thought that was odd too. Perhaps the US distributor (Mac Group) has excess inventory they need to move. I wonder if this promotion is happening in other parts of the world where Leaf and Mamiya don't have the same distribution.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150457\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i agree with your comments about the integrated platform being a long term solution. we are in what i would call an interim or transition period right now. the phase one announcement seems to recognize this in a manner which at least imo, no other company has articulated.
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i agree with your comments about the integrated platform being a long term solution. we are in what i would call an interim or transition period right now. the phase one announcement seems to recognize this in a manner which at least imo, no other company has articulated.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150465\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Part of this is because Phase One currently doesn't have a solution. Their motivation for articulating the transitional period is because that is the only thing they can do at this point. Hassleblad beat everyone to the punch by purchasing Imacon, and that merger has gone relatively well. But Hasselblad has handled the transitional period poorly in my opinion with regard to existing users of their products. But the product itself - after some initial growing pains - is really starting to bear fruit for them.
Leaf and Sinar are now on the road forward with integrated solutions. They are not handling it (so far) as clumsily as Hasselblad, although neither had an existing medium format camera that had penetrated the market to the extent of the H camera, so they didn't face that dilemma with regard to exitsing users.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Perhaps someone could point out to me the benefit of Phase's camera body backup programme. All they will do is sell you a body the same as any other shop would, it seems.
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I think Phase try to say "don't panic" we are still here...
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OTOH, to me this sounds a bit panicky (spelling?) from Phase One´s part.
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Perhaps someone could point out to me the benefit of Phase's camera body backup programme. All they will do is sell you a body the same as any other shop would, it seems.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150474\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I totally agree. This strategy, if indeed it is a strategy, is a mystery to me.
As I pointed out earlier, Phase have the same "one size fits all" approach with their backs as Microsoft have with Windows. They don't need to make/supply/backup cameras, anymore than Microsoft needs to make computers. If this rumour is true, it is total BS in my opinion.
As for panic: why? What's to panic about? They offer maximum flexibility, something which Hassie certainly does not do.
Relax!
D.
ps. That said, if you have two Mamiya RB67 bodies, six lenses and tons of accessories (built up over many years in this business) and you want to get into MFDB do you:
1. Put a back on the RB67 and accept the second-rate glass (i.e. not getting full value for the investment in the high-res sensor) and the multiplier affect.
2. Bite the bullet and sell everything? (RB gear now has terrible second-hand value.)
3. Do something else?
Finally, anyone on this thread already using an MFDB on an RB67?
Thanks. D.
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They don't need to make/supply/backup cameras, anymore than Microsoft needs to make computers. If this rumour is true, it is total BS in my opinion.
D.
I disagree here. They very much do need to make/supply some sort of camera. The position they are in now - as a comparison to Microsoft - is as if all the computer manufacturers suddenly came out with their own operating systems.
I am hoping that Phase One is successful in getting a camera platform to develop on. Even though I do not sell Phase One, I don't believe market attrition benefits the medium format industry. More choice equals more interest and desire, more competition for better product.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Part of this is because Phase One currently doesn't have a solution. Their motivation for articulating the transitional period is because that is the only thing they can do at this point. Hassleblad beat everyone to the punch by purchasing Imacon, and that merger has gone relatively well. But Hasselblad has handled the transitional period poorly in my opinion with regard to existing users of their products. But the product itself - after some initial growing pains - is really starting to bear fruit for them.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150467\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I suspect you're right Steve. Feels like a slightly pointless and mildly desperate measure by Phase One.
I'm starting to wish I'd kept my hand in my pocket and not bought that P45+ in a V series mount. It's a combination that does everything I need a camera to do, so not a tragedy, but I smell collapsing resale values!
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I suspect you're right Steve. Feels like a slightly pointless and mildly desperate measure by Phase One.
I'm starting to wish I'd kept my hand in my pocket and not bought that P45+ in a V series mount. It's a combination that does everything I need a camera to do, so not a tragedy, but I smell collapsing resale values!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150550\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So why would you sell it if it does everything you need? The best thing you can do if you're worried about the reseal value is to buy a P45 refit. Same image quality and much cheaper. The only thing you get with the plus series is a better screen.
I'm pretty sure that someone buying a H3D/Afi/SinarHy6 will losse much more money than some buying phase one, because he complete integrated system cost a lot more thatn a simple back, and you cannot simply sell the back of an integrated system and upgrade.
Even if my H2 is discontinued now, I can still put any DB on the market that I like or upgrade to another phaseone DB when I want. Or just stay whith what I've got.
The truth is that PhaseOne is still an open platform and that's what they are telling to their customers.
I really don't understand people freaking out just because their camera is being discontinued. That's exactly what Hasselblad wants. Tell the Contax guys...
PhaseOne has plans. They will launch their new products in March next year. They will announce them earlier, maybe before 2008, so just relax...
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I really don't understand people freaking out just because their camera is being discontinued. That's exactly what Hasselblad wants. Tell the Contax guys...
PhaseOne has plans. They will launch their new products in March next year. They will announce them earlier, maybe before 2008, so just relax...
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Very well put!! Hasselblad would like everyone to completely freak out and get rid of everything they own and put their hard earned dollars into Hasselblad's corporate pockets. However, Phase must have some sort of 'real' solution to survive. The train has left the station, but still moving just slow enough to jump on..... Phase had better have a real plan!!
Victor
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So why would you sell it if it does everything you need? The best thing you can do if you're worried about the reseal value is to buy a P45 refit. Same image quality and much cheaper. The only thing you get with the plus series is a better screen.
I'm pretty sure that someone buying a H3D/Afi/SinarHy6 will losse much more money than some buying phase one, because he complete integrated system cost a lot more thatn a simple back, and you cannot simply sell the back of an integrated system and upgrade.
Even if my H2 is discontinued now, I can still put any DB on the market that I like or upgrade to another phaseone DB when I want. Or just stay whith what I've got.
The truth is that PhaseOne is still an open platform and that's what they are telling to their customers.
I really don't understand people freaking out just because their camera is being discontinued. That's exactly what Hasselblad wants. Tell the Contax guys...
PhaseOne has plans. They will launch their new products in March next year. They will announce them earlier, maybe before 2008, so just relax...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150566\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I said in my post that it wasn't a tragedy, so I don't think I can be accused of "freaking out"! However, looking at the H28mm correction software, and the similar software/lens integration that Canon plans for the 1Ds MkIII, I think this may be the way the digital world's moving. And, given that I mainly shoot architecture, perfect distortion correction might be an interesting development. The other thing to consider is that Phase One are the market leader in MFDBs, and with the frentic pace of change it's not unreasonable to assume that leadership grants some scale advantages.
Seems to me that if Phase One are entering Phase Two in their market share prospects, then I can't feel quite as confident in their future development plans, nor in their product guarantees.
Not freaking out you understand, just casting a rational eye over tomorrow's possibilities.
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I said in my post that it wasn't a tragedy, so I don't think I can be accused of "freaking out"! However, looking at the H28mm correction software, and the similar software/lens integration that Canon plans for the 1Ds MkIII, I think this may be the way the digital world's moving. And, given that I mainly shoot architecture, perfect distortion correction might be an interesting development. The other thing to consider is that Phase One are the market leader in MFDBs, and with the frentic pace of change it's not unreasonable to assume that leadership grants some scale advantages.
Seems to me that if Phase One are entering Phase Two in their market share prospects, then I can't feel quite as confident in their future development plans, nor in their product guarantees.
Not freaking out you understand, just casting a rational eye over tomorrow's possibilities.
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Gary, sorry I didn't point at you about people freaking out. People complains a lot here.
But I think that when you make an investment of that kind, you should be also thinking that that's the gear you've paid to work with. Because if you're already thinking about upgrades and resale prices you're gonna feel hurt a lot, specially if you go Hasselblad. My H2 is just 2 months old...
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Misinformation, Samuel!
The Sinar Hy6 IS NOT an "integrated" system like you understand and describe it, BUT a camera platform accepting ALL Sinarbacks by means of adapters. Thus you can take away the back and "sell" it separately. YES, the back is integrated by means of communication between back and camera, that's it and that's a bit different.
As for the price of such a "bundle" system (not integrated), I let you check with prices of separate products.
best regards,
Thierry
I'm pretty sure that someone buying a .... SinarHy6 will losse much more money than some buying phase one, because he complete integrated system cost a lot more thatn a simple back, and you cannot simply sell the back of an integrated system and upgrade.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150566\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Misinformation, Samuel!
The Sinar Hy6 IS NOT an "integrated" system like you understand and describe it, BUT a camera platform accepting ALL Sinarbacks by means of adapters. Thus you can take away the back and "sell" it separately. YES, the back is integrated by means of communication between back and camera, that's it and that's a bit different.
As for the price of such a "bundle" system (not integrated), I let you check with prices of separate products.
best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150594\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's right. I should say H3D/Afi. The Hy6 isn't closed in that way as it will mount any sinar back.
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I'm pretty sure that someone buying a H3D/Afi/SinarHy6 will losse much more money than some buying phase one, because he complete integrated system cost a lot more thatn a simple back, and you cannot simply sell the back of an integrated system and upgrade.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150566\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
On the contrary. Sinarback users won't have to sell their backs if they change their minds - just change adapter. For the same reason, Sinarbacks will always retain their value the best. Anyone can buy one for any platform and just add the adapter.
Phase owners can be stung very badly if they want to change mount. It's the main gripe I have against Phase. My Swedish friend paid 30,000 SEK ($4,683) for a change of mount of his P30 only 6 months after buying the P30 new. Sinar adapters run at about $1K.
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What's there to freak out about really? Your camera and DB will still produce beautiful images 10-20-30 years from now, out of production or not. And it will probably be serviceable long after you've stopped using it. I get the feeling a lot of people, here and on other forums, are more interested in having the latest toy than using it to create beautiful images.
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no harm, am here to correct!
Thierry
That's right. I should say H3D/Afi. The Hy6 isn't closed in that way as it will mount any sinar back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150595\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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On the contrary. Sinarback users won't have to sell their backs if they change their minds - just change adapter. For the same reason, Sinarbacks will always retain their value the best. Anyone can buy one for any platform and just add the adapter.
Phase owners can be stung very badly if they want to change mount. It's the main gripe I have against Phase. My Swedish friend paid 30,000 SEK ($4,683) for a change of mount of his P30 only 6 months after buying the P30 new. Sinar adapters run at about $1K.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150596\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
the current position of phase as it relates to mount changes:
"Phase One is the only digital back manufacturer to offer professional photographers the freedom of choice to switch from one camera platform to another in a cost-free or minimal cost exchange program. This 1 year program is now extended to 3 years. All Phase One Value Added backs can be exchanged to a new platform, cost-free, within 36 months of the original purchase date. All Phase One Classic backs can be exchanged for a nominal fee within the first 12 months. If the Classic warranty has expired, a slightly higher fee will be charged in months 13 to 36 from purchase date."
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All Phase One Value Added backs can be exchanged to a new platform, cost-free, within 36 months of the original purchase date.
So you need to pay for a 'free' exchange. More marketing double talk.
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I don't want to start a flame war here,however Phase is now trailing.
Their so called Capture One software is no longer state of the art.
I know a lot of Phase One back users,that NOT use Capture One anymore.
Phase One doesn't offer a multi-shot back either.
They should have taken up the Hy6 offer!
My2cw.
Have a nice day.
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I'm just a little dumbfounded by how so many photographers are seemingly pushing the big red panic button to leave their beloved Phase/other H system Backs. I have one word for you. Contax. I Know MANY people who you'll have to pry that camera out of their dead hands!!!! To think that your tool is now worthless and that you should jump ship is so narrow minded and sad! You should Buy another body and enjoy 7 years of great pictures, or at least until something BETTER comes along. Moving to the new Hassy is a downgrade in some regards, and lateral for the most part with a few little perks at a very high cost for many. Also, how stupid will you feel when they orphan it with the H4 when they make it all in one like a Canon/zd? Seriously. Your in the same boat again and at that point with most likely a payment equal to buying from scratch with your previous upgrade. If I were to buy TODAY it would still be H with Phase back. The HY6 seems amazing but with no Phase back (and no rotating back) it is a non starter at the moment. Yes, the tides are changing. Yes the Hassy is getting better, and has new software (I hate that scanner software). Yes, leaf is getting better and has the AFI. Sinar too is making improvements and new software in the pipe and the HY6. These are all major threats to Phase, and Im not so sure I love C1 4.0 either. However, if your back is within the last generation or 2 your crazy to think the money you lose to switch will buy you anything more than false hope of non obsolences. The new chips from Dalsa/Kodak can not be that far off if history repeats, and how bad will you feel when you just bought that shinny new Hassy then... WHAM...-50mp at 1.25frames per second and more DR and better hi-iso? I really think the next generation of backs will be a real turning point. At that point Phase MAY not be the best anymore. Just has Nikon made up ground on Canon so Have Phase's competitors. The new chips will be out, every player will have new/newish redesigned software, and the HY6 will be a known quantity ,and perhaps Phase a trick up its sleeve or not. This is merely conjecture here ,but Photokina seems a good time for these things to materialize and that isn't that far off. If ever there was a time (if your already own) to wait then this may be it.
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Photokina seems a good time for these things to materialize and that isn't that far off. If ever there was a time (if your already own) to wait then this may be it.
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Indeed, and then at least another year for those devices to be deliverable in a working state - as the Hy6 and P+ back story shows.
I would assume that anyone with a working back of the current generation has a picture-taking device that is good enough for the next 18 months, and that buying decisions for those people can wait out the debugging of the Sinar, the launch of the new backs by Sinar and Leaf, the reality of whatever solution Phase will then offer.
By the way, my Phase P45+back is really nice, the AF on the Mamiya works surprisingly well, and ISO 400 is good. At the moment I could only wish for faster multi-point AF(new body, Mamiya ?) and decent 1600 ISO.
Edmund
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Well I have decided to wait for sure.. Prices for MFDB have come down a lot recently and will continue to come down or they will be dead in the water.
The new Phase C-1 Pro 4 is a joke if you ask me.. Too little too late! And the price is way over priced also.
It has soo many bugs and they were stupid not to plan on Leopard coming out, so it will be a while before they get it working. Looks like a copy of LR, But a bad copy from what I can see.
I have my eye on Leaf but like others have stated I am waiting until the end of this year to see where MFDB are going.
For me Hassleblad is never going to be a choice, So we'll see what happens.
I also think once the 1DsMIII starts getting out there MANY will drop MFDB's. I know they are 2 different tools for 2 different Markets, but there is really BIG in between market that will go for the 1DsMIII. So I am sitting back and watching what happens in the next 6 months...:+}
Hassleblad will probably dominant the market probably like they want to.
I see people mentioning Contax alot, But didn't Contax pretty much Die already? And their Sync is the same as Mamiya (125/th) which is not a lot of help either, But Mamiya seems to be holding in there, So far..?
Thanks for all the information, you guys have slowed down my "need" for MFDB's..:+}
Snook
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I believe the C-1 beta 4 is for the LE. Isn't the PRO yet to come?
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Hi
I have been following this thread for a few weeks now waiting for something to happen? So far nothing. I find it rather odd that a year ago Phase One was going to fit onto the Hy6 project. Lots of rumors, talk, threads & nothing happened. So one year later here we go again. Now Jenoptik has a press release stating that only Sinar & Leaf will be part of the Hy6 camera.
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... The new chips from Dalsa/Kodak can not be that far off if history repeats, and how bad will you feel when you just bought that shinny new Hassy then... WHAM...-50mp at 1.25frames per second and more DR and better hi-iso? I really think the next generation of backs will be a real turning point. ... If ever there was a time (if your already own) to wait then this may be it.
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Hi Jeff,
Not to add much to the already intense level of guessing generally going on on this board, but, er, um, any informed speculation as to when those new, higher-rez chips in the next generation of backs might be ready? One year, two years, three years?
Just curious,
Sean
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... and don't forget that I have said pretty much the same since a year now, if not exactly the same than what has been published in the press release. Try to remember or find my posts. And putting my name with the Sinar signature below should have been enough to at least consider what I am writing and saved much unnecessary debate about the subject.
On a side note, and to make things completely clear: also at the begining, there was never a question that Phase would be part of the project, like I have read this now a few times, and nothing such has been informed from our side.
Best regards,
thierry
Hi
I have been following this thread for a few weeks now waiting for something to happen? So far nothing. I find it rather odd that a year ago Phase One was going to fit onto the Hy6 project. Lots of rumors, talk, threads & nothing happened. So one year later here we go again. Now Jenoptik has a press release stating that only Sinar & Leaf will be part of the Hy6 camera.
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So you need to pay for a 'free' exchange. More marketing double talk.
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That's not a fair comment. If you buy the extended warranty then you get to change the mount. If you don't then you get to change for a nominal fee. Both ways there's a cost but such is life.
Where I come it's called service package not marketing double talk.
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What's there to freak out about really? Your camera and DB will still produce beautiful images 10-20-30 years from now, out of production or not. And it will probably be serviceable long after you've stopped using it. I get the feeling a lot of people, here and on other forums, are more interested in having the latest toy than using it to create beautiful images.
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I disagree. The most important question is who will service and repair my P45+ back if Phase One are out of business? Remember, I could drop it on a concrete floor anytime and require a specialist repair that only Phase One can manage. Keeping a sophisticated electonic device functioning isn't like unjamming a Hasselblad V series camera.
Without Phase One in business what's the realistic life expectancy of a back? I very much doubt it's the 10-20-30 year time frame that you reference, and far from being a toy it's tool, so the repair and servicing implications of a bankrupt or failing supplier are worth thinking about.
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I do not know if this is a photographers thing...but the whole reasoning here seem a bit silly by now.
Phase One WILL NOT go bankrupt because of the actions of Sinar, Leaf, Rollei or Hasselblad. If they go under it will be because of people like you. It will be because photographers who currently use P45 or other P1 products will not purchase another unit and will not supply enough revenue to support their operation. To me the logic seems like it is a fault of a new beautiful neighbor that move to your neighborhood that you will be force to divorce your wife and move next door.
Come on people!. Your sexy neighbor has no obligation to like and accept your wife and to allow her to play a little trio together for a sake of your marriage. If you leave her alone and work on the things that made your relationship strong you will survive the temptations and salvage your family.
Writing millions of petitions to Sinar and Hassy will not change a thing. Opening a dialog with Phase One and you is the only logical step you can take. Than if you figure out that your partner is not willing to listen or respond to your needs you can conclude the obvious and move next door and live happily ever after .... until somebody prettier moves in.
Thierry, you are an angel of patients.
Andre Napier
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I believe it comes down to what you like and the Price. Of course if some companies squeeze out others it will be hard to survive. Sinar, Hassleblad have an advantage that they make cameras and probably would love to push out the competition. It only makes marketing sense,for them.
Also software will have a HUGE advantage or disadvantage for sure.
So I think it is a little more than a marriage...:+}
I think Phase is falling behind with their software and the new Beta 4 is pretty weak right now.
I think there are a lot of factors in a companies survival or not....
I think most photographers unless they have an unlimited budget are looking for a great price matched with quality. The market for MFDB is getting smaller as other companies come out with bigger better cameras. RE: Not to start another conflicting post here but for 75% of most print work and magazines ,catalogues etc... the Canon 1DsMII and upcoming MIII are MORE than enough for most photographic works. So all these companies with 18-22 megapixel clients are probably going to lose a lot of the market. Apart that the quality is Much better with MFDB's. Most of the clients will not "see" it unfortunately.
Guys selling huge prints or Advertising guys for car ads etc... they will want more and will be the Large MFDB market.. But that is getting smaller.
I personally think that the MFDB guys have squeezed the juice long enough for the prices they are asking and the technology is already advancing slower, So why the High prices for Old technology.
In any case spending 25-35K for a MFDB days are over for most. except the market I mentioned above.
Just my opionion. I am a full time working photographer and I have never recieved a complaint about the Canon gear, but Only have been dissappointed my self with the 35mm format.
I am making a move soon to MFDB because I want to for personal projects and for some adverts when shooting is much slower. Not because my clients wants or needs better quality.
Also my move to MFDB is because I like the feel of MF as I started out with medium format. Plus I feel the viewfinder a joke in 35mm..:+}
Snook
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I disagree. The most important question is who will service and repair my P45+ back if Phase One are out of business? Remember, I could drop it on a concrete floor anytime and require a specialist repair that only Phase One can manage. Keeping a sophisticated electonic device functioning isn't like unjamming a Hasselblad V series camera.
Without Phase One in business what's the realistic life expectancy of a back? I very much doubt it's the 10-20-30 year time frame that you reference, and far from being a toy it's tool, so the repair and servicing implications of a bankrupt or failing supplier are worth thinking about.
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Actually, I think there will be people servicing digital cameras in the future just as you don't have to send a mamiya camera to mamiya in japan to service it, you can have it fixed at an independent service center. I think it's only logical that things won't change in this respect, it's just some electronics and an imaging chip after all, not a space shuttle.