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Author Topic: National Parks affected by the climate changes  (Read 29503 times)

Peter McLennan

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #260 on: July 21, 2022, 11:49:42 am »

Quote
(TechTalk)Your comment highlights one of the greatest problems we face in the future, amateur pseudoscience being peddled to the masses — often packaged with smears of dedicated researchers and conspiracy hoaxes.

That and Truth Decay: Lies to reinforce the opinions of the ignorant.

"But with the climate warming, you Canadians will have far more cropland"

Fuck me.

"We have NO IDEA what's going to happen."  That's what the scientists say.  "But it's going to be extremely disruptive".
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Peter McLennan

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #261 on: July 21, 2022, 11:53:22 am »

You're cherry-picking. (expensive boat trips to service offshore wind turbines)

You said it, Alan.  YOU brought up the idiotic boat service costs.
If it's cherry picking, they're your cherries.
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TechTalk

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #262 on: July 21, 2022, 12:01:34 pm »

I'll let others decide.

ENERGY IS EXPENSIVE IN GERMANY – CAN THIS BE A GOOD THING?
The high cost of energy in Germany is a result of the country’s transition from fossil fuels and atomic energy to renewables. This could be seen as a marker for a poor market environment – or the opposite, as Mathias Röckel explains.
https://www.dotmagazine.online/issues/powering-and-greening-IT/energy-is-expensive-in-germany

What German households pay for power
Power prices in Germany are among the highest in Europe. The high costs partly are due to the mandatory support for renewable energy sources – but most customers continue to support the country's energy transition regardless. Wholesale electricity prices on average have been in decline in recent years, but surcharges, taxes, and grid fees raise the bill for Germany's private households and small businesses. However, market observers say that power costs are often not even high enough for customers to look for cheaper alternatives. At the same time, the 2021 energy price hike in Europe is upsetting government plans to ease the financial burden on housheholds by reducing fees and surcharges on consumption.
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/what-german-households-pay-power

I don't know why Alan posts links to articles which he hasn't read. It appears he just reads the headlines which he puts in bold.

Germany is the Bogeyman he trots out whenever renewable energy comes up. Both of those articles are pretty balanced regarding Germany's transition to renewable energy.

From Alan's dotmagazine article...

Energy is but one factor for companies to consider

If energy is a vital factor to your success, be aware you will pay more for power in Germany than in some other European countries. But high costs are not necessarily a marker for poor market environment. In fact, quite the opposite can be the case. Take, for instance, the data center industry.

Frankfurt is among Europe’s top locations for data center providers -- and data centres are energy thirsty. The data center community in the Frankfurt area has seen continuous growth over the past years, managing to surpass even the Frankfurt Airport (the fourth largest airport in Europe) in terms of power usage. The data center industry example illustrates that energy cost is but one factor to consider regarding your business. In the data center industry, other considerations include security, availability, latency, connectivity and geography. At the end of the day, what is more important to your customers: your production cost -- or the quality you offer in comparison with the price you charge?

Regarding Germany as a business location, look at the the country’s economic statistics and consider this:
While paying more for energy to enable a more sustainable future is something that does make entrepreneurs stop at first and think hard, it would be hard to find an industry prevented from flourishing due to the price of German energy.

From Alan's cleanenergywire.org article...

Although in early 2019 they paid the highest nominal power prices of all customers in Europe, a stable majority of Germans continue to support the energy transition and consider it generally beneficial for the economy. A possible explanation for this carefree attitude is that the financial impact of rising power prices on the household budget is not substantial for many people, since it constitutes only a relatively small fraction of their total income.

If power prices are counted in real terms, the country actually ranks in the midfield compared to fellow EU states. In Bulgaria, for example, power prices are only one third of those in Germany. But not only are power outages much more common, Bulgarians on average also earn only one ninth of the average salary in Germany, newspaper Tageszeitung (taz) reported. In 2015, only 2.3 percent of the households’ disposable income were spent on electricity, similar to mid-1980s levels. In 1998, the respective figure was 1.78 percent, as the liberalisation of energy markets led to a temporary price drop.

Also regarding total energy bills, Germans spend a low share of income in EU comparison, according to the German Economic Institute (IW). German households pay just over 9 percent of their average monthly income for energy, on par with consumers in neighbouring France and the Netherlands. In contrast, Bulgarian households spend more than 25 percent on electricity, gas and petrol. Greeks and Hungarians share second place at 20 percent. The share is lowest in Luxembourg with just 4 percent. The IW notes that its latest report is based on figures from the first half of the year, and therefore does not reflect the recent increases in gas prices.
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Alan Klein

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #263 on: July 21, 2022, 12:02:16 pm »

All power systems everywhere always provide standby power alternatives for unusual situations. A responsible generation system (not Texas) would never do it any other way. That is standard operating procedure. Accommodating renewables changes the mix and I'm sure the pros can figure out the best way to manage this. I'm certain they know more than you or me on the subject and that no objection that you can dream up would be new to them. I know you don't trust experts, but that's self-delusion. You actually think you know more than they do.

Anyway, who says that all back-ups have to be based on fossil fuels. Things are changing fast and a link was provided above to literature in that subject area. I would prefer to check valid industry sources like that before consulting your opinions. You should too.
Of course there has always been backup for generator failures.  If one or two go down, you can get power from other systems on the grid.  But when the wind stops blowing at night, it covers a huge swatch of geography.  Add to the problem if it's at night and you can't depend on solar, there's no place to draw from on neighboring green plants.  They have no wind either. That's why they need to keep some existing ones and add new alternatives.  I agree with you that it doesn't have to be fossil.  But in NY, they shut down forever nuclear plants that were perfectly operational because residents didn't like to be near nuclear.

Regarding experts who know what they're doing, Texas is the largest wind-using state in America.  Yet their experts screwed up.  Germany, with their exacting experts, didn't do much better. They pay 2 1/2 times more than Americans for electricity.  They've been subsiding German consumers because the production costs are so high.  Their green equipment is failing prematurely.  So much for free energy.

The point I'm making is that greenies deceived the public or just didn;t know better early on with how cheap green would be.  The fact is it costs, a lot 

Alan Klein

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #264 on: July 21, 2022, 12:12:11 pm »

I don't know why Alan posts links to articles which he hasn't read. It appears he just reads the headlines which he puts in bold.

Germany is the Bogeyman he trots out whenever renewable energy comes up. Both of those articles are pretty balanced regarding Germany's transition to renewable energy.

From Alan's dotmagazine article...

Energy is but one factor for companies to consider

If energy is a vital factor to your success, be aware you will pay more for power in Germany than in some other European countries. But high costs are not necessarily a marker for poor market environment. In fact, quite the opposite can be the case. Take, for instance, the data center industry.

Frankfurt is among Europe’s top locations for data center providers -- and data centres are energy thirsty. The data center community in the Frankfurt area has seen continuous growth over the past years, managing to surpass even the Frankfurt Airport (the fourth largest airport in Europe) in terms of power usage. The data center industry example illustrates that energy cost is but one factor to consider regarding your business. In the data center industry, other considerations include security, availability, latency, connectivity and geography. At the end of the day, what is more important to your customers: your production cost -- or the quality you offer in comparison with the price you charge?

Regarding Germany as a business location, look at the the country’s economic statistics and consider this:
While paying more for energy to enable a more sustainable future is something that does make entrepreneurs stop at first and think hard, it would be hard to find an industry prevented from flourishing due to the price of German energy.

From Alan's cleanenergywire.org article...

Although in early 2019 they paid the highest nominal power prices of all customers in Europe, a stable majority of Germans continue to support the energy transition and consider it generally beneficial for the economy. A possible explanation for this carefree attitude is that the financial impact of rising power prices on the household budget is not substantial for many people, since it constitutes only a relatively small fraction of their total income.

If power prices are counted in real terms, the country actually ranks in the midfield compared to fellow EU states. In Bulgaria, for example, power prices are only one third of those in Germany. But not only are power outages much more common, Bulgarians on average also earn only one ninth of the average salary in Germany, newspaper Tageszeitung (taz) reported. In 2015, only 2.3 percent of the households’ disposable income were spent on electricity, similar to mid-1980s levels. In 1998, the respective figure was 1.78 percent, as the liberalisation of energy markets led to a temporary price drop.

Also regarding total energy bills, Germans spend a low share of income in EU comparison, according to the German Economic Institute (IW). German households pay just over 9 percent of their average monthly income for energy, on par with consumers in neighbouring France and the Netherlands. In contrast, Bulgarian households spend more than 25 percent on electricity, gas and petrol. Greeks and Hungarians share second place at 20 percent. The share is lowest in Luxembourg with just 4 percent. The IW notes that its latest report is based on figures from the first half of the year, and therefore does not reflect the recent increases in gas prices.
Germany's energy situation is dire.  Their experts are idiots.  They built a gas pipeline to Russia and now they have limited natural gas to heat their homes and drive their industries.  Even I saw the stupidity of that move two years ago long before Ukraine.  They're going to have to shut down 15% or so hurting business and people.  The Germans are sheep.  Everyone likes green until they have to pay for it more. Don't forget., the government is subsidizing home electricity costs.  I believe that's going to end or be decreased.  When they see their bills go up more, they won't be so sanguine. Wait till they have no heat this winter and gasoline prices go up more.  Even in America, everyone is for green energy until they fill up their tank and have to pay the bill.

Manoli

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #265 on: July 21, 2022, 12:15:14 pm »


I could, but I don't want to because it would be obviously pointless. Your mind is made up. It would be like trying to present an argument to a 'God believer' that the theory of Evolution is a more convincing theory for the 'origins and development of life' than a Creator God.

Goodbye, and may you have a peaceful life despite your concerns about an impending climatic disaster.

I wouldn’t normally waste my time in responding to such facetiousness, but that’s bordering on the offensive. TechTalk at no time referred to ‘impending climatic disaster’ and you should know better than to attribute words, dare I say falsehoods, to another.

Time to retract and apologise.
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Alan Klein

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #266 on: July 21, 2022, 12:21:59 pm »

I wouldn’t normally waste my time in responding to such facetiousness, but that’s bordering on the offensive. TechTalk at no time referred to ‘impending climatic disaster’ and you should know better than to attribute words, dare I say falsehoods, to another.

Time to retract and apologise.
Ray has always presented his arguments with logic. You don;t have to agree with them. But, it's your side that continually resorts to personal insults and attacks against the posters rather than their ideas.  You're self-righteousness is out of place..

TechTalk

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #267 on: July 21, 2022, 12:28:35 pm »

Regarding experts who know what they're doing, Texas is the largest wind-using state in America.  Yet their experts screwed up.

It wasn't experts, it was a free-for-all free market mindset in state government. Texas suffered from too much faith in the free market and too little government regulation and oversight requiring winterization, just like before when they had widespread outages due to lack of winterization — and no regulations requiring it.
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TechTalk

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #268 on: July 21, 2022, 12:31:16 pm »

Germany, with their exacting experts, didn't do much better. They pay 2 1/2 times more than Americans for electricity.  They've been subsiding German consumers because the production costs are so high.

Again, you're making it up as you go along and have it backwards. Consumer energy prices are high due to taxes, fees, and surcharges added to the cost of production. This is plain bullshit.

From YOUR cleanenergywire linked article...

Power price components

The average power price for households and small businesses in Germany stood at 32.16 cents per kilowatt hour (ct/kWh) in 2021, according to an analysis by the German Association of Energy and Water Industries (BDEW). More than half of the price was due to politically determined components, such as taxes, levies, and surcharges.

About one quarter of the 2021 price (7.8 ct/kWh) resulted from regulated grid fees, which include metering and associated services. Another 7.9 cents were set by the market, meaning the costs accruing from power supply and distribution that also make up the wholesale power price and include the supplier’s margin.


« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 12:34:30 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #269 on: July 21, 2022, 12:31:33 pm »

The point I'm making is that greenies deceived the public...

You might want to get your facts straight before accusing others of deception. Just a suggestion.
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TechTalk

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #270 on: July 21, 2022, 12:33:59 pm »

Don't forget., the government is subsidizing home electricity costs.

Try reading the articles that you post and link occasionally. You'll find it enlightening.
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TechTalk

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #271 on: July 21, 2022, 01:13:43 pm »

...The Germans are sheep...

...Their experts are idiots....

...it's your side that continually resorts to personal insults...
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Manoli

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #272 on: July 21, 2022, 01:59:01 pm »

You're self-righteousness is out of place..

*\ yawn

Yes, yes, we know - attributing lies (or falsehoods) to someone is straight out of your playbook.  And how long did it take you to man up?

Edit:
and it’s  ‘your’ NOT ‘you’re’.
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LesPalenik

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #273 on: July 21, 2022, 04:27:46 pm »

To paraphrase a relatively recent, but highly memorable post - "Wake me up when the temperature in London will read 45C".
The U.K. got a preview of what 2050 could feel like this week. The U.K.’s weather-tracking Met Office says the likelihood of temperatures reaching 40 degrees Celsius (104 degrees Fahrenheit) is now 10 times higher than in the pre-industrial era.

Quote
Two years ago, with meteorologists quickening the rate at which they try to warn the world of the perils of unchecked climate change, the U.K.’s Met Office — the official weather forecasting agency for the country — posted an alarming, red-splashed temperature map. It was meant as a teaching tool. The Met Office imagined, as a strict hypothetical, what July 23, 2050 might feel like for this far-northern, populous island nation and its Irish neighbors. This was based on climate change projections and what is known so far about global warming’s impact — not in strictly causing weather extremes, but in boosting their frequency and severity.

“Not actual weather forecast,” the graphic made clear. “Examples of plausible weather based on climate projections.” But this week, the Met Office no longer had to pretend. The severe heatwave was here — 28 years earlier than the projection map.



Earlier this week, the temperatures in France reached 46C, in Spain 43C and in Greece 48C.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/u-k-weather-officials-drew-a-scary-heatwave-model-for-2050-this-week-it-came-true-28-years-early-11658254726
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #274 on: July 21, 2022, 04:38:31 pm »

To paraphrase a relatively recent, but highly memorable post - "Wake me up when the temperature in London will read 45C".
The U.K. got a preview of what 2050 could feel like this week. The U.K.’s weather-tracking Met Office says the likelihood of temperatures reaching 40 degrees Celsius (104 degrees Fahrenheit) is now 10 times higher than in the pre-industrial era.



Earlier this week, the temperatures in France reached 46C, in Spain 43C and in Greece 48C.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/u-k-weather-officials-drew-a-scary-heatwave-model-for-2050-this-week-it-came-true-28-years-early-11658254726

You're not being fair. You're ignoring the benefits to people living in cold places. Once they completely replace their topsoil they'll be able to become the world's bread basket. Time to get into the driverless truck business, as there will dump trucks full of dirt making their way up to the Northwest Territories and the Yukon for centuries to come. We can convert them to run on the thawed methane, thereby creating jobs at Toyota. Global warming might be good for those northern would-be farmers. How hard can it be to orchestrate the wholesale move of the planet's arable land to new latitudes? Time for that can do attitude.

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DavidJ

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #275 on: July 22, 2022, 05:01:38 am »

The BBC is running a series on how the oil industry has quite deliberately used falsehoods to undermine the science of climate change. The first episode was last night and the most shocking evidence was that EXXON had a research department which by 1979 had clearly demonstrated that a rise in global temperature was being driven by CO2 derived from the burning of fossil fuels. They had started research in to how this was likely to impact the oceans and commissioned an oil tanker to become an ocean research vessel. The top management closed down the research. Since then they and others have run a well organised and funded campaign to undermine the science of global climate change so as to protect their profits.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 11:20:09 am by DavidJ »
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Alan Klein

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #276 on: July 22, 2022, 07:36:53 am »

The BBC is running a series on how the oil industry has quite deliberately used falsehoods to undermine the science of climate change. The first episode was last night and the most shocking evidence was that EXON had a research department which by 1979 had clearly demonstrated that a rise in global temperature was being driven by CO2 derived from the burning of fossil fuels. They had started research in to how this was likely to impact the oceans and commissioned an oil tanker to become an ocean research vessel. The top management closed down the research. Since then they and others have run a well organised and funded campaign to undermine the science of global climate change so as to protect their profits.
Everything that man does affects the earth, often in a negative way.  We just have so many people on the planet.  So, should Tesla do research on the effects of producing and discarding EV batteries?  Of course, there are huge negative effects from them.  Should we shut down EV manufacturing? 

Don't get me wrong.  I think research should be done on the various things we do.  But once we realize they're negative, what then?  Should we stop film use due to all the chemicals used in manufacturing and developing them?  Certainly, it could be argued that who needs more chemicals around that could cause cancer.   

Peter McLennan

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #277 on: July 22, 2022, 10:48:17 am »

Alan, are you paid by the keystroke for your monologues?

Your lectures in high school economics, demographics, electronics, photochemistry, geomorphology, climate science and a thousand other topics are getting old.

It's not so much your myopic political opinions that are boring, it's their extent and their repetitive, tedious predictability.

Please: attempt concision.
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DavidJ

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #278 on: July 23, 2022, 07:27:50 am »

No problem at all  ;) You could shift the 1.1 billion who live in sub Saharan Africa to move the dirt as their home lands will no longer be habitable.

You're not being fair. You're ignoring the benefits to people living in cold places. Once they completely replace their topsoil they'll be able to become the world's bread basket. Time to get into the driverless truck business, as there will dump trucks full of dirt making their way up to the Northwest Territories and the Yukon for centuries to come. We can convert them to run on the thawed methane, thereby creating jobs at Toyota. Global warming might be good for those northern would-be farmers. How hard can it be to orchestrate the wholesale move of the planet's arable land to new latitudes? Time for that can do attitude.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: National Parks affected by the climate changes
« Reply #279 on: July 23, 2022, 07:32:43 am »

No problem at all  ;) You could shift the 1.1 billion who live in sub Saharan Africa to move the dirt as their home lands will no longer be habitable.

Piece of cake. ;)
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