National Parks affected by the climate changes

[Alan Klein]

I always liked beavers.

That's because you're are a kayaker and canoeist.  Well, nudists like global warming. 

[Alan Klein]

This WHO article on death rates and climate change is worth a read. If we live in rich developed countries it is easier to mitigate the effects of climate change but stop and think about the impact it has on poor countries and those where climate change is damaging crop production. Starvation and disease is a consequence of climate change. Remember that at the moment global warming over the last 150 years is 1.1C but in parts of the world including subartic regions the rise in temperature is 3C.

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/climate-change-and-health

Poor countries can't afford green.  China is building hundreds of coal-fired electricity plants in many poor countries around the world adding to CO2 production.  How would you deal with that? 

[Robert Roaldi]

Poor countries can't afford green.

What can they afford?

[Alan Klein]

What can they afford?

Unfortunately, China is taking advantage of many poor countries.  They're making deals with them to build coal-fired plants in exchange for their resources, military ports, etc.  China is stealing their countries blind. 

For China, it's about making money and keeping their populace quiet.  So we not only have to deal with their 30% of the world's CO2 production but added CO2 from coal plants they build in other countries.   Without China on board, attempts to reduce CO2 production will go nowhere. 

[Alan Klein]

China's coal plants:

Despite Pledges to Cut Emissions, China Goes on a Coal Spree
China is building large numbers of coal-fired power plants to drive its post-pandemic economy. The government has promised a CO2 emissions peak by 2030, but the new coal binge jeopardizes both China’s decarbonization plans and global efforts to tackle climate change.
Coal remains at the heart of China’s flourishing economy. In 2019, 58 percent of the country’s total energy consumption came from coal, which helps explain why China accounts for 28 percent of all global CO2 emissions. And China continues to build coal-fired power plants at a rate that outpaces the rest of the world combined. In 2020, China brought 38.4 gigawatts of new coal-fired power into operation, more than three times what was brought on line everywhere else.
https://e360.yale.edu/features/despite-pledges-to-cut-emissions-china-goes-on-a-coal-spree

China Deepens Its Dependence on Coal by Speeding up Approvals
Greenpeace says over-reliance on the fuel is a mistake
Government stimulus fails to revive the property sector
Bloomberg News
July 19, 2022 at 11:39 PM EDT
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-20/china-deepens-its-dependence-on-coal-by-speeding-up-approvals

CHina is cutting back on overseas projects, or so they claim.  WHo trusts them to keep their word?

China’s promise to stop building coal plants overseas is full of caveats and loopholes
China announced the ban last year, but Chinese companies are still pursuing carbon-intensive coal projects abroad.

Lili Pike
China Reporter

April 28, 2022
https://www.grid.news/story/global/2022/04/28/chinas-promise-to-stop-building-coal-plants-overseas-is-full-of-caveats-and-loopholes/[/i]

[LesPalenik]

  $5.6B is almost a rounding error in many of our programs.  The government will have to spend trillions to make a dent.

In any case, I don;t see savings if you consider Germany.  They changed over their production so that 40% are renewables.  Yet they pay higher prices for electricity.  There were no savings.  Additionally, much of their wind production is now worn out after 20-25 years.  They have to replace a lot of it already.

It's $56B, not $5.6B.
The high costs of the renewable electricity plants in Germany were caused by paying high price for the early models solar panels and due to over-complicated permits for building anything. In Germany, 40% of electricity comes now from renewable sources, in USA only 20%. In Spain, renewable energy accounts for over 46%, 

[Alan Klein]

It's $56B, not $5.6B.
The high costs of the renewable electricity plants in Germany were caused by paying high price for the early models solar panels and due to over-complicated permits for building anything. In Germany, 40% of electricity comes now from renewable sources, in USA only 20%. In Spain, renewable energy accounts for over 46%, 

How much will it cost us to save $56B? 

In any case, I'm not too sure of the savings if you look at Germany. Why do you think America, Canada, or any other country could do it better than the efficient and technically oriented Germans?  If they screwed it up, there's not much hope for us. 

Look at Texas which has more wind generation than any other state, interesting in itself since it's an oil state.  But they lost power across the state  a year or so ago for stupid political and design decisions and could lose it again.  Do you think New York State where I grew up and lived until recently is any smarter?  They shut down nuclear plants.  And now they are going to build offshore wind that will require fossil fuel backup for when the wind stops blowing.  How do two plants instead of one save construction money?  Think of the maintenance costs when they have to send a repairman in a helicopter or a chartered boat over the ocean burning diesel. 

[Robert Roaldi]

...
In any case, I'm not too sure of the savings if you look at Germany. Why do you think America, Canada, or any other country could do it better than the efficient and technically oriented Germans?  If they screwed it up, there's not much hope for us. 

...

Who says they've screwed up, you?

[Robert Roaldi]

... Think of the maintenance costs when they have to send a repairman in a helicopter or a chartered boat over the ocean burning diesel.

Is sending out a boat out now and then really such a big deal?

[Alan Klein]

Who says they've screwed up, you?

I'll let others decide.

ENERGY IS EXPENSIVE IN GERMANY – CAN THIS BE A GOOD THING?
The high cost of energy in Germany is a result of the country’s transition from fossil fuels and atomic energy to renewables. This could be seen as a marker for a poor market environment – or the opposite, as Mathias Röckel explains.
https://www.dotmagazine.online/issues/powering-and-greening-IT/energy-is-expensive-in-germany

What German households pay for power
Power prices in Germany are among the highest in Europe. The high costs partly are due to the mandatory support for renewable energy sources – but most customers continue to support the country's energy transition regardless. Wholesale electricity prices on average have been in decline in recent years, but surcharges, taxes, and grid fees raise the bill for Germany's private households and small businesses. However, market observers say that power costs are often not even high enough for customers to look for cheaper alternatives. At the same time, the 2021 energy price hike in Europe is upsetting government plans to ease the financial burden on housheholds by reducing fees and surcharges on consumption.
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/what-german-households-pay-power

[Robert Roaldi]

Unfortunately, China is taking advantage of many poor countries.  They're making deals with them to build coal-fired plants in exchange for their resources, military ports, etc.  China is stealing their countries blind. 
...

Said completely without irony too.

[Alan Klein]

Is sending out a boat out now and then really such a big deal?

You're cherry-picking.  The main costs are construction costs for ocean wind generators and additional fossil fuel plants for backup when the wind doesn't blow.  Producing free energy isn't cheap. 

[Robert Roaldi]

I'll let others decide.

ENERGY IS EXPENSIVE IN GERMANY – CAN THIS BE A GOOD THING?
The high cost of energy in Germany is a result of the country’s transition from fossil fuels and atomic energy to renewables. This could be seen as a marker for a poor market environment – or the opposite, as Mathias Röckel explains.
https://www.dotmagazine.online/issues/powering-and-greening-IT/energy-is-expensive-in-germany

What German households pay for power
Power prices in Germany are among the highest in Europe. The high costs partly are due to the mandatory support for renewable energy sources – but most customers continue to support the country's energy transition regardless. Wholesale electricity prices on average have been in decline in recent years, but surcharges, taxes, and grid fees raise the bill for Germany's private households and small businesses. However, market observers say that power costs are often not even high enough for customers to look for cheaper alternatives. At the same time, the 2021 energy price hike in Europe is upsetting government plans to ease the financial burden on housheholds by reducing fees and surcharges on consumption.
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/what-german-households-pay-power

Who says the main reason for going renewable was to save money? You again. And over what time period would you measure that, 15 years, 150 years?

Energy costs what it costs. Part of the issue with oil is that it has been subsidized so much that we waste it all the time. Higher prices of oil-based fuels is probably a good thing. We should be paying more for it. The fact that millions of people use 3-ton pick-up trucks to buy groceries demonstrates that very well. The fact that our homes here in Canada (developer build tract housing) have such poor insulation is another example of how much we underprice energy. We're just cheating ourselves, well, our children really, because eventually there is a price to pay.

[Robert Roaldi]

You're cherry-picking.  The main costs are construction costs for ocean wind generators and additional fossil fuel plants for backup when the wind doesn't blow.  Producing free energy isn't cheap. 

Then don't bring up moronic examples.

There are costs of construction and maintenance for fossil-fuel plants too, what point are you trying to make. You make it sounds as if we need to build double the number of power plants, renewable ones backed up by fossil-fuel ones. Is that really how it's done? Sounds like another assumption you're making and trying to pass off as fact. You don't have a good track record you know. Almost everything you say turns out to be fact-checked and found wanting.

[Alan Klein]

Who says the main reason for going renewable was to save money? You again. And over what time period would you measure that, 15 years, 150 years?

Energy costs what it costs. Part of the issue with oil is that it has been subsidized so much that we waste it all the time. Higher prices of oil-based fuels is probably a good thing. We should be paying more for it. The fact that millions of people use 3-ton pick-up trucks to buy groceries demonstrates that very well. The fact that our homes here in Canada (developer build tract housing) have such poor insulation is another example of how much we underprice energy. We're just cheating ourselves, well, our children really, because eventually there is a price to pay.

You did.  Saving costs with green energy was one of the main arguments for it by proponents like yourself.  To just shrug your shoulders now because it's convenient in light that it doesn't save money and costs much more, is a poor attempt to deflect criticism.  Where did you get the proof that it will be able to save money 15 years from now, much less 150 years?  Those are illogical arguments.   

[Alan Klein]

Then don't bring up moronic examples.

There are costs of construction and maintenance for fossil-fuel plants too, what point are you trying to make. You make it sounds as if we need to build double the number of power plants, renewable ones backed up by fossil-fuel ones. Is that really how it's done? Sounds like another assumption you're making and trying to pass off as fact. You don't have a good track record you know. Almost everything you say turns out to be fact-checked and found wanting.

I provide articles of proof one after another.  You never acknowledge the proof I provide just complaining I don't prove it.  Meanwhile, you rarely provide backup for your claims. 

Here's an article on how California has to add fossil fuel backup.  This is a common issue across the country in many states.  Of course, all states need to have access to alternatives to green at night and when the wind isn;t blowing.

To avoid blackouts, California may tap fossil fuel plants
A sweeping energy proposal Gov. Gavin Newsom signed Thursday puts the state in the business of buying power to ensure there's enough to go around during heat waves that strain the grid. But some critics say the method of getting there is at odds with the state's broader climate goals, because it paves the way for the state to tap aging gas-fired power plants and add backup generators fueled by diesel.

The debate highlights the challenge some states are facing as they scramble to address heat waves fueled by climate change without compromising on their pledges to transition to non-fossil fuel energy sources like solar and wind.

California gets most of its energy from renewable sources during the day, but doesn't yet have the storage to dispatch enough solar power after the sun goes down. The bill aims to speed up the building of more renewable energy and storage facilities by removing local governments from permitting decisions. Supply chain issues are also slowing down building.
https://www.kcra.com/article/avoid-blackouts-california-may-tap-fossil-fuel-plants/40480270#

[Ray]

Meanwhile, you might want to consider offering something more current and written by someone with a science background rather than a paper written 27 years ago by an economist at the Hoover Institution.

I could, but I don't want to because it would be obviously pointless. Your mind is made up. It would be like trying to present an argument to a 'God believer' that the theory of Evolution is a more convincing theory for the 'origins and development of life' than a Creator God.

Goodbye, and may you have a peaceful life despite your concerns about an impending climatic disaster.

[Robert Roaldi]

I provide articles of proof one after another.  You never acknowledge the proof I provide just complaining I don't prove it.  Meanwhile, you rarely provide backup for your claims. 

Here's an article on how California has to add fossil fuel backup.  This is a common issue across the country in many states.  Of course, all states need to have access to alternatives to green at night and when the wind isn;t blowing.

To avoid blackouts, California may tap fossil fuel plants
A sweeping energy proposal Gov. Gavin Newsom signed Thursday puts the state in the business of buying power to ensure there's enough to go around during heat waves that strain the grid. But some critics say the method of getting there is at odds with the state's broader climate goals, because it paves the way for the state to tap aging gas-fired power plants and add backup generators fueled by diesel.

The debate highlights the challenge some states are facing as they scramble to address heat waves fueled by climate change without compromising on their pledges to transition to non-fossil fuel energy sources like solar and wind.

California gets most of its energy from renewable sources during the day, but doesn't yet have the storage to dispatch enough solar power after the sun goes down. The bill aims to speed up the building of more renewable energy and storage facilities by removing local governments from permitting decisions. Supply chain issues are also slowing down building.
https://www.kcra.com/article/avoid-blackouts-california-may-tap-fossil-fuel-plants/40480270#

All power systems everywhere always provide standby power alternatives for unusual situations. A responsible generation system (not Texas) would never do it any other way. That is standard operating procedure. Accommodating renewables changes the mix and I'm sure the pros can figure out the best way to manage this. I'm certain they know more than you or me on the subject and that no objection that you can dream up would be new to them. I know you don't trust experts, but that's self-delusion. You actually think you know more than they do.

Anyway, who says that all back-ups have to be based on fossil fuels. Things are changing fast and a link was provided above to literature in that subject area. I would prefer to check valid industry sources like that before consulting your opinions. You should too.

[Robert Roaldi]

You did.  Saving costs with green energy was one of the main arguments for it by proponents like yourself.  ...

Fake news. This is a waste of time. If you're prepared to just lie when it suits you, is there any point to this?

[TechTalk]

I could, but I don't want to because it would be obviously pointless. Your mind is made up.

My mind is made up as to your reliability as a purveyor of trustworthy and accurate information.

It would be like trying to present an argument to a 'God believer' that the theory of Evolution is a more convincing theory for the 'origins and development of life' than a Creator God.

Actually, I would give biologists the credit they're due for their commitment to study and research on the topic. Just like I give credit and weight to scientists in other fields for their efforts. It's the amateur experts populating the internet of which I'm skeptical — and for good reason.

...may you have a peaceful life despite your concerns about an impending climatic disaster.

No one is cowering in the corner, we just do what we can and keep moving forward.