Covid General discussions

[Chris Kern]

So why should I believe what you said . . .

You were not expected to understand it.

[Robert Roaldi]

So you're claiming the news article was wrong based on another scientific report that they didn't report on.  Fake news.  What else is new?   Like I said, how does the ordinary citizen know what to believe?  You proved my point.  You can't trust anyone.  You have to be your own counsel. 

No that's not what he said, but we knew that's where you'd end up. I don't know if it's because you truly cannot understand nuance or that you're just trolling, because it smells like trolling.

[Peter McLennan]

I'm only reporting what they say.  Is it true?  I don't know any more than you.  I'm just reporting it. But then, I'm not a scientist.

Fake news.  What else is new?   Like I said, how does the ordinary citizen know what to believe?  You proved my point.  You can't trust anyone.

And who do you think is to blame for all this, Alan? 

It wasn't always this way in "The greatest country ever, in the entire history of the world".

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Is natural immunity more or less effective than vaccinations?

Looking at the number of people in hospital ICUs, they're both more effective than no vaccination, assuming the unvaccinated patients recovered well to begin with. And since the antibody count reduces over time, vaccination seems safer than reinfection.

[Alan Klein]

What a pleasure not having to discuss discontent in America for a change.

Covid News: Trucker-Led Protests Expand Beyond Canadian Capital
Protesters against pandemic-related measures have paralyzed Ottawa for a week and arrived in Toronto.
OTTAWA — Protesters in Ottawa and other cities across Canada took to the streets on Saturday for the second weekend in a row to continue demonstrations against pandemic restrictions. The demonstrations that began with truckers critical of vaccine mandates have grown to include a range of other political causes, including opposition to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

While the police and officials braced for rowdy crowds and potential violence, the atmosphere of the demonstrations by midday Saturday, though loud, remained mostly peaceful and festive.

In Ottawa, despite frigid temperatures, a band performed on the street in front of Parliament Hill underneath a Canadian flag dangling from a large construction crane. Nearby, several inflatable bouncy castles were set up, and makeshift canteens throughout downtown dispensed food. At a municipal baseball stadium parking lot that truckers were using for staging and camping, three saunas were brought in.

On the streets, many people walking to the protest greeted one another with raised fists and shouts of “freedom.”
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/05/world/covid-test-vaccine-cases

[Robert Roaldi]

What a pleasure not having to discuss discontent in America for a change.

Covid News: Trucker-Led Protests Expand Beyond Canadian Capital
Protesters against pandemic-related measures have paralyzed Ottawa for a week and arrived in Toronto.
OTTAWA — Protesters in Ottawa and other cities across Canada took to the streets on Saturday for the second weekend in a row to continue demonstrations against pandemic restrictions. The demonstrations that began with truckers critical of vaccine mandates have grown to include a range of other political causes, including opposition to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

While the police and officials braced for rowdy crowds and potential violence, the atmosphere of the demonstrations by midday Saturday, though loud, remained mostly peaceful and festive.

In Ottawa, despite frigid temperatures, a band performed on the street in front of Parliament Hill underneath a Canadian flag dangling from a large construction crane. Nearby, several inflatable bouncy castles were set up, and makeshift canteens throughout downtown dispensed food. At a municipal baseball stadium parking lot that truckers were using for staging and camping, three saunas were brought in.

On the streets, many people walking to the protest greeted one another with raised fists and shouts of “freedom.”
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/05/world/covid-test-vaccine-cases

From what I can tell from people I know and what they see on social media, the protesters have very little support. The number of protestors who are there for "other" reasons are too numerous to ignore and they are distasteful. I read one report of a group whose beliefs are that all public health offices should be closed. Yeah sure, that will get a lot of traction.

There are reports of people finding human feces on their front lawns, now there's a video that should go viral. People's patience is running out. It's all so silly since many provinces are opening up because of the fall in infections and deaths BECAUSE of vaccines and other measures. The arguments about "freedom" are falling on deaf ears.

There's a reluctance to crack heads on the part of the authorities, which I understand, but we're starting to get counter-demonstrations in various cities now. Some of the politicians who hoped to make hay by supporting these guys are beginning to pull back as they sense a lack of support among voters. Principles, real or imagined, always take a back seat to votes.

A local journalism grad is privately tracking the identity of businesses who have supported the protestors and he has found that a large number of them are recipients of government Covid grants, which should be embarrassing except they're probably not embarrassed. I've seen other efforts online of people getting pics of vehicle plates and even VIN numbers and they plan to report activities to various entities like police and insurance companies and employers. So, like I've said before, it's a shit show.

Btw, it's a literal shit show. The amount of litter, garbage and human bodily wastes on the streets downtown is disgusting. And it's all going nowhere, that's a given.

[Alan Klein]

From what I can tell from people I know and what they see on social media, the protesters have very little support. The number of protestors who are there for "other" reasons are too numerous to ignore and they are distasteful. I read one report of a group whose beliefs are that all public health offices should be closed. Yeah sure, that will get a lot of traction.

There are reports of people finding human feces on their front lawns, now there's a video that should go viral. People's patience is running out. It's all so silly since many provinces are opening up because of the fall in infections and deaths BECAUSE of vaccines and other measures. The arguments about "freedom" are falling on deaf ears.

There's a reluctance to crack heads on the part of the authorities, which I understand, but we're starting to get counter-demonstrations in various cities now. Some of the politicians who hoped to make hay by supporting these guys are beginning to pull back as they sense a lack of support among voters. Principles, real or imagined, always take a back seat to votes.

A local journalism grad is privately tracking the identity of businesses who have supported the protestors and he has found that a large number of them are recipients of government Covid grants, which should be embarrassing except they're probably not embarrassed. I've seen other efforts online of people getting pics of vehicle plates and even VIN numbers and they plan to report activities to various entities like police and insurance companies and employers. So, like I've said before, it's a shit show.

Btw, it's a literal shit show. The amount of litter, garbage and human bodily wastes on the streets downtown is disgusting. And it's all going nowhere, that's a given.

It sounds like the start of the BLM demonstrations except Canadians are more polite. 

By the way, your argument that it's only a "few" people is what I say about so-called "white supremacists" here in America.  Sure there are a few.  But they're a minority overblown by press reports that look for news to sell.  They make it sound like there's a KKK chapter in every town, which of course is ridiculous. 

However, I suspect there's more to these demonstrations that might appear on the surface.  These are not radicals, not the extremes from one side or the other.  They remind me of "the deplorables", the middle class and the "silent majority" folks in America who voted for Nixon and Trump.  People who feel the government just doesn't care about their problems.

[Robert Roaldi]

It sounds like the start of the BLM demonstrations except Canadians are more polite. 

By the way, your argument that it's only a "few" people is what I say about so-called "white supremacists" here in America.  Sure there are a few.  But they're a minority overblown by press reports that look for news to sell.  They make it sound like there's a KKK chapter in every town, which of course is ridiculous. 

However, I suspect there's more to these demonstrations that might appear on the surface.  These are not radicals, not the extremes from one side or the other.  They remind me of "the deplorables", the middle class and the "silent majority" folks in America who voted for Nixon and Trump.  People who feel the government just doesn't care about their problems.

Why would you think you know anything about this?

Here's an article someone sent to me, but I don't know who the author is, https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/02/03/opinions/canada-truckers-protests-covid-19-trudeau-cohen/index.html.

In one sense, it doesn't matter who wrote it or what he says, because you won't read it.

[Alan Klein]

Why would you think you know anything about this?

Here's an article someone sent to me, but I don't know who the author is, https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/02/03/opinions/canada-truckers-protests-covid-19-trudeau-cohen/index.html.

In one sense, it doesn't matter who wrote it or what he says, because you won't read it.

I read the opinion.  Well, here's a slightly different opinion on the matter from Newsweek not CNN, both rather liberal media.  But I doubt if you'll read it.

What I though was interesting is that Saskatchewan and Alberta are ending their Covid mandates.  It must be Canadian flyover territories. The politicians there who are ending the rules must have returned from their winter vacations in Florida and were impressed by Gov Disantis's popularity or they're feeling the pressure from the truckers.
https://www.newsweek.com/canadas-politicians-only-have-themselves-blame-trucker-protests-opinion-1676400

[LesPalenik]

[/u]OTTAWA — Protesters in Ottawa and other cities across Canada took to the streets on Saturday for the second weekend in a row to continue demonstrations against pandemic restrictions. The demonstrations that began with truckers critical of vaccine mandates have grown to include a range of other political causes, including opposition to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

While the police and officials braced for rowdy crowds and potential violence, the atmosphere of the demonstrations by midday Saturday, though loud, remained mostly peaceful and festive.

In Ottawa, despite frigid temperatures, a band performed on the street in front of Parliament Hill underneath a Canadian flag dangling from a large construction crane. Nearby, several inflatable bouncy castles were set up, and makeshift canteens throughout downtown dispensed food. At a municipal baseball stadium parking lot that truckers were using for staging and camping, three saunas were brought in.

Most protesters there must be oddballs and physically challenged persons. All normal Ottawans are at this time of year, especially on a warm day like today, skating on the frozen Rideau Canal.

[Robert Roaldi]

... from Newsweek not CNN, both rather liberal media.  ...

Your views on what is left or right are suspect.

...
What I though was interesting is that Saskatchewan and Alberta are ending their Covid mandates.  ...

That's not the least bit interesting, you're just fishing for lame talking points. Like I said, and as others have said, when provinces feel that the infection rates are low enough, they will relax restrictions. This happened last year and has always been policy, nothing new, although maybe it's news to you. Nothing to do with a tiny minority of truckers throwing temper tantrums. Like the rest of the country, most Canadian truckers are vaccinated. They have to be if they expect to cross the border into the US.

No new information even penetrates your deflector shields, does it?

[Robert Roaldi]

Most protesters there must be oddballs and physically challenged persons. All normal Ottawans are at this time of year, especially on a warm day like today, skating on the frozen Rideau Canal.

As an off-topic aside, skateways are in vogue this year, it appears. Within an hour of Ottawa, there are 10 or so fairly lengthy skateways (2 to 5 km or so). Some are in marshes, others on calm river channels, others are plowed out of forested areas. I'm sorry I never learned to skate now.

[Alan Klein]

...

That's not the least bit interesting, you're just fishing for lame talking points. Like I said, and as others have said, when provinces feel that the infection rates are low enough, they will relax restrictions. This happened last year and has always been policy, nothing new, although maybe it's news to you. Nothing to do with a tiny minority of truckers throwing temper tantrums. Like the rest of the country, most Canadian truckers are vaccinated. They have to be if they expect to cross the border into the US.

...

You're not keeping up with the news.   You've been following American news more than Canadian.  Health wasn't the reason. It was for freedom and economic reasons.  It seems that both provinces agree with the truckers and are worried politically.

Canada’s Truckers Hold The Line Against Absent Trudeau as Provinces Announce End of Restrictions.
Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe has said his government will move to end COVID-19 measures that restrict the rights and freedoms of the Canadian people. Moe has already received criticism from state-funded far-left Canadian Broadcasting Corporation after he posted a statement to social media where he claimed, correctly, that the COVID-19 vaccination does not reduce transmission or contraction of the virus.
https://thenationalpulse.com/2022/02/03/canadas-truckers-hold-the-line-against-absent-trudeau-as-one-province-announces-end-of-restrictions/

Vaccine Mandate Not Needed for Truckers, Says Alberta Premier
Alberta Premier Jason Kenney says U.S. and Canadian governments should reinstate a vaccine exemption for cross-border truckers to ease supply chain snarls.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2022-01-28/vaccine-mandate-not-needed-for-truckers-says-alberta-premier

[Alan Klein]

As an off-topic aside, skateways are in vogue this year, it appears. Within an hour of Ottawa, there are 10 or so fairly lengthy skateways (2 to 5 km or so). Some are in marshes, others on calm river channels, others are plowed out of forested areas. I'm sorry I never learned to skate now.

You're Canadian and don't know how to skate? 

[Alan Klein]

It's getting worse in Toronto.  Police are unconstitutionally shutting down access to prevent Canadians from speaking freely.  Obviously acting like fascists.  Today's 2/6.  Almost like 1/6.  Coincidence?  Canadians should demand cops be defunded.  They need to be taught a lesson. 

‘This is a siege,’ says Ottawa police chief as blockades and protests over covid measures enter second weekend
OTTAWA — Protests over coronavirus public health measures and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau entered their second weekend here with much of the downtown core of Canada’s capital blockaded by trucks in what officials are calling an “occupation.”

Demonstrations in solidarity with the self-described “Freedom Convoy” also popped up in other cities across Canada, including Toronto and Quebec City.

Police in Ottawa have responded to more than 650 service calls, opened up 97 criminal investigations and received over 200 calls to a hate-crime hotline since the demonstrations began, according a Sunday report.

Between Saturday and Sunday morning, Ottawa police said, they issued more than 450 tickets for offenses such as excessive noise, use of fireworks, and driving with a suspended license, through a red light, on a sidewalk or between marked lanes.

“This is a siege,” Sloly said Saturday. “It is something that is different in our democracy than I’ve ever experienced in my life.”

The disorder is proving deeply discouraging to many Canadians. “It feels like something broke in Canada this week,” contributing columnist Robin V. Sears wrote in Sunday’s Toronto Star. “The nation that has always been a little too smug about its values of civility and respect seemed to have disappeared, replaced by what looked far more American than Canadian.”

Jeff, a truck driver in Toronto who does not drive cross-border routes, said he has been out of work since October because he is not vaccinated.

“There’s no reason for them to force this inoculation on me,” he said, declining to give his last name.

The demonstrations — which have drawn praise from Fox News personalities, Donald Trump and Tesla founder Elon Musk — have left residents on edge.

The sound of horns is almost constant. Police say residents have been the targets of intimidation and racist vitriol.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/05/canada-ottawa-trucker-vaccine-mandate-protest/

[Robert Roaldi]

You're not keeping up with the news.   You've been following American news more than Canadian.  Health wasn't the reason. It was for freedom and economic reasons.  It seems that both provinces agree with the truckers and are worried politically.

Canada’s Truckers Hold The Line Against Absent Trudeau as Provinces Announce End of Restrictions.
Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe has said his government will move to end COVID-19 measures that restrict the rights and freedoms of the Canadian people. Moe has already received criticism from state-funded far-left Canadian Broadcasting Corporation after he posted a statement to social media where he claimed, correctly, that the COVID-19 vaccination does not reduce transmission or contraction of the virus.
https://thenationalpulse.com/2022/02/03/canadas-truckers-hold-the-line-against-absent-trudeau-as-one-province-announces-end-of-restrictions/

Vaccine Mandate Not Needed for Truckers, Says Alberta Premier
Alberta Premier Jason Kenney says U.S. and Canadian governments should reinstate a vaccine exemption for cross-border truckers to ease supply chain snarls.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2022-01-28/vaccine-mandate-not-needed-for-truckers-says-alberta-premier

Why do you insist on trying to tell me what's going 10 km from my house? Freedom and economics my ass. 99% of Canada's truckers are vaccinated, working (as we speak) and earning their keep. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. People have been working up here in Canada all along, except for hits to tourism and restaurants. if those truckers wanted to work, all they'd have to do is show up because I head there's a driver shortage. They don't want to be told to get a vaccine, boo hoo. I'm sure they've had TB, small pox, diptheria, measles and tetanus vaccines their whole lives. I can smell a bullshit political movement when I see one.

There are clowns in this "protest" who hold up signs calling for the elimination of "public health". Sure, let's go back to the 18th century, it was so much fun back then, typhoid, small pox, TB. There are confederate flags, FFS. There are morons there with Trump hats. In Canada. What is that if not stupid?

But I won't go on, since I don't like feeding trolls. So far as I can tell, what you want is the freedom for everyone else to go to work and risk getting sick to keep the price of your toilet paper low.

Remember, they defecated on people's lawns. They kept air horns blowing into the night in residential neighbourhoods. What does that have to do with freedom and economics?

[Alan Klein]

Why do you insist on trying to tell me what's going 10 km from my house? Freedom and economics my ass. 99% of Canada's truckers are vaccinated, working (as we speak) and earning their keep. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. People have been working up here in Canada all along, except for hits to tourism and restaurants. if those truckers wanted to work, all they'd have to do is show up because I head there's a driver shortage. They don't want to be told to get a vaccine, boo hoo. I'm sure they've had TB, small pox, diptheria, measles and tetanus vaccines their whole lives. I can smell a bullshit political movement when I see one.

There are clowns in this "protest" who hold up signs calling for the elimination of "public health". Sure, let's go back to the 18th century, it was so much fun back then, typhoid, small pox, TB. There are confederate flags, FFS. There are morons there with Trump hats. In Canada. What is that if not stupid?

But I won't go on, since I don't like feeding trolls. So far as I can tell, what you want is the freedom for everyone else to go to work and risk getting sick to keep the price of your toilet paper low.

Remember, they defecated on people's lawns. They kept air horns blowing into the night in residential neighbourhoods. What does that have to do with freedom and economics?

I don't care if the truckers are right or wrong about masks and vax.  I was trying to point out this comment made previously by a Canadian in the article.  There are a lot of Canadians here who have made constant snide comments about America and Americans.  Now you have to look inward as well.

The disorder is proving deeply discouraging to many Canadians. “It feels like something broke in Canada this week,” contributing columnist Robin V. Sears wrote in Sunday’s Toronto Star. “The nation that has always been a little too smug about its values of civility and respect seemed to have disappeared, replaced by what looked far more American than Canadian.”

[LesPalenik]

It's getting worse in Toronto.  Police are unconstitutionally shutting down access to prevent Canadians from speaking freely.  Obviously acting like fascists.  Today's 2/6.  Almost like 1/6.  Coincidence?  Canadians should demand cops be defunded.  They need to be taught a lesson. 

‘This is a siege,’ says Ottawa police chief as blockades and protests over covid measures enter second weekend
OTTAWA — Protests over coronavirus public health measures and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau entered their second weekend here with much of the downtown core of Canada’s capital blockaded by trucks in what officials are calling an “occupation.”

Police in Ottawa have responded to more than 650 service calls, opened up 97 criminal investigations and received over 200 calls to a hate-crime hotline since the demonstrations began, according a Sunday report.

Between Saturday and Sunday morning, Ottawa police said, they issued more than 450 tickets for offenses such as excessive noise, use of fireworks, and driving with a suspended license, through a red light, on a sidewalk or between marked lanes.

Just received an email from a friend in Ottawa, who shed a little bit more light on the demonstrations there. According to her, most protesters troublemakers are from outside of town, and many even outside of Canada. Most stores in Ottawa, including various offices are now locking the entry doors to prevent the undesirable elements from entering their promises. 

The police had blocked some intersections in the city to stop the trucks from getting to Parliament Hill.  Trucks came to Ottawa about 9 days ago from the West, from the Toronto area and from Montreal.  More trucks have been arriving every day, some from the USA. The Ottawa police and the RCMP are trying to contain the trucks into specific areas so that they don't block all the downtown streets.

Ottawa residents are not joining the protest, instead they are doing some anti-protest walking the residential streets in solidarity with the people who are now subject to truck horns blaring night and day, and more noise from fireworks at night from encampments that the truckers convoy had set up in a park downtown. It's a mess. The police are damned if they do and damned if they don't take action so they are negotiating or trying to wait it out.  The protestors are carrying Canadian flags and have Canadian flags on their trucks, which is disgusting. They don't represent Canadians nor are they patriots. They are scummy irresponsible covid spreaders, who act against public health policy. Nobody knows how it will all end.

[Alan Klein]

Sounds like sedition, treason, wanting to overthrow the Canadian government. Not allowing the government to function. Unabashed racism. How American of Canada. And where is the PM during all this hullabaloo?  In hiding.


Protesters have paralyzed downtown Ottawa for the past nine days, with some participants waving Confederate or Nazi flags and some saying they want to dissolve Canada's government. Convoy organizers say they will not leave until the vaccine mandates are ended.

Police said they had charged four people with hate crimes and were investigating threats against public figures jointly with the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Trudeau, who is isolating after testing positive for COVID-19 last week, has ruled out using the military to disband the protest. Due to security concerns, Trudeau and his family left their downtown home last weekend and his location has not been disclosed.

A senior member of the Liberal government said the ease with which the convoy shut down the area around the parliament and the seeming impotence of police was a "national humiliation".
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/protest-against-vaccine-mandates-paralyzing-canada-capital-mayor-says-2022-02-06/

[Alan Klein]

Just received an email from a friend in Ottawa, who shed a little bit more light on the demonstrations there. According to her, most protesters troublemakers are from outside of town, and many even outside of Canada. Most stores in Ottawa, including various offices are now locking the entry doors to prevent the undesirable elements from entering their promises. 

The police had blocked some intersections in the city to stop the trucks from getting to Parliament Hill.  Trucks came to Ottawa about 9 days ago from the West, from the Toronto area and from Montreal.  More trucks have been arriving every day, some from the USA. The Ottawa police and the RCMP are trying to contain the trucks into specific areas so that they don't block all the downtown streets.

Ottawa residents are not joining the protest, instead they are doing some anti-protest walking the residential streets in solidarity with the people who are now subject to truck horns blaring night and day, and more noise from fireworks at night from encampments that the truckers convoy had set up in a park downtown. It's a mess. The police are damned if they do and damned if they don't take action so they are negotiating or trying to wait it out.  The protestors are carrying Canadian flags and have Canadian flags on their trucks, which is disgusting. They don't represent Canadians nor are they patriots. They are scummy irresponsible covid spreaders, who act against public health policy. Nobody knows how it will all end.

The Jan 6th protestors at the Capitol were out-of-towners too.