Covid General discussions

[Robert Roaldi]

US does not discriminate when it comes to hiring. They have all kinds of nationalities working in their labs and research centers. Some of the employees (regardless of where they were born) will copy for good money all kinds of data on their flash drives and sell it to the highest bidder.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/china-harvests-masses-of-data-on-western-targets-documents-show/2021/12/31/3981ce9c-538e-11ec-8927-c396fa861a71_story.html

J. Edgar used to keep tabs on Neil Young and MLK, so what else is new?

Restricting the search for espionage to different "nationalities" might be a mistake. Ethnicity isn't a guarantee of anything.

[Alan Klein]

J. Edgar used to keep tabs on Neil Young and MLK, so what else is new?

Restricting the search for espionage to different "nationalities" might be a mistake. Ethnicity isn't a guarantee of anything.

J Edgar Hoover spied on congressmen and presidents and the FBI was still doing it with Trump.  Schumer even laughed when Trump went after the CIA knowing they'd get him back.

[Robert Roaldi]

J Edgar Hoover spied on congressmen and presidents and the FBI was still doing it with Trump.  Schumer even laughed when Trump went after the CIA knowing they'd get him back.

I knew you'd find a way to make this subject anti-Democrat.

[Alan Klein]

I knew you'd find a way to make this subject anti-Democrat.

It's not anti-Democrat.  Hoover spied on both republicans and democrats.  He kept personal files on all their peccadilloes.  That's how he stayed FBI chief through something like 7 different presidents.  They were all afraid of him.  Who knows what he had on them in his personal files?  So this stuff has been going on for decades and decades.  This is third-world stuff. 

[LesPalenik]

Now 3 of my friends (3 different families) who have a small child or came into contact with their grandchild got infected by covid. It seems that children can be affected by omicron easier than by the earlier variants.

[Chris Kern]

Now 3 of my friends (3 different families) who have a small child or came into contact with their grandchild got infected by covid. It seems that children can be affected by omicron easier than by the earlier variants.

All three subtypes of the Omicron variant are extremely contagious, and the BA.2 subtype has been circulating in Toronto for at least a week.  Children, like adults, probably need much less exposure to become infected and they can transmit the virus to others even though they may not themselves have any symptoms.

[Robert Roaldi]

I wonder if anti-vaxxers have a problem with tetanus booster shots when they step on a nail.

[LesPalenik]

I hear lately from my friends that they know other people who were recently infected. The last of the 3 cases I mentioned was a situation where a small boy infected his mother and both grandparents - so 4 people in total. Since  the covid effects were not catastrophic, they just stayed in bed for a or two, got better and never reported their infections. I guess that there are many situations like that, so the official stats show substantially fewer cases than the real count. In other words, the real situation is much worse than reported by CDC and media.

[Robert Roaldi]

I hear lately from my friends that they know other people who were recently infected. The last of the 3 cases I mentioned was a situation where a small boy infected his mother and both grandparents - so 4 people in total. Since  the covid effects were not catastrophic, they just stayed in bed for a or two, got better and never reported their infections. I guess that there are many situations like that, so the official stats show substantially fewer cases than the real count. In other words, the real situation is much worse than reported by CDC and media.

Similar stories here. My wife's nephew and his wife were both infected via their daughter at day care. Friends of ours here in town caught it from their school-aged kids.

The US Worldometer 7-day infection rate seems to have started dropping although deaths are still above 2000 per day. I guess there will be a lag of a week or two before deaths start dropping.

[LesPalenik]

Similar stories here. My wife's nephew and his wife were both infected via their daughter at day care. Friends of ours here in town caught it from their school-aged kids.

The US Worldometer 7-day infection rate seems to have started dropping although deaths are still above 2000 per day. I guess there will be a lag of a week or two before deaths start dropping.

I think this is more due to the fact (as I estimated in my previous post) that the death numbers are real whereas the infection cases are under-reported.

[Alan Klein]

I hear lately from my friends that they know other people who were recently infected. The last of the 3 cases I mentioned was a situation where a small boy infected his mother and both grandparents - so 4 people in total. Since  the covid effects were not catastrophic, they just stayed in bed for a or two, got better and never reported their infections. I guess that there are many situations like that, so the official stats show substantially fewer cases than the real count. In other words, the real situation is much worse than reported by CDC and media.

It could be the glass half full vs half empty.  If there are actually more cases than reported, that means the death rate is lower than believed.  That's good news. 

[Alan Klein]

What's going on north of the border?  What's with you Canadians?  You seem to be picking up bad habits from your neighbors. I see sedition, a coup, who knows what's next? 

Trudeau: Canadians disgusted by anti-vaxxers who desecrated monuments
Thousands gathered in Ottawa to protest against Covid mandates and some urinated on the National War Memorial
Justin Trudeau has said that Canadians were disgusted by the behaviour of anti-vaccine protesters, and said he would not be intimidated by those who hurled abuse.

The Canadian prime minister spoke as central Ottawa remained blockaded by dozens of trucks and other vehicles after thousands descended upon Parliament Hill on Saturday to protest against Covid-19 vaccine mandates.

Police said they were investigating possible criminal charges after protesters urinated on the National War Memorial, danced on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, and used the statue of Canadian hero Terry Fox to display an anti-vaccine statement. Some also harassed volunteers at a soup kitchen and flew Nazi flags.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/31/canada-anti-vaccine-protests-criminal-charges

[Robert Roaldi]

What's going on north of the border?  What's with you Canadians?  You seem to be picking up bad habits from your neighbors. I see sedition, a coup, who knows what's next? 

Trudeau: Canadians disgusted by anti-vaxxers who desecrated monuments
Thousands gathered in Ottawa to protest against Covid mandates and some urinated on the National War Memorial
Justin Trudeau has said that Canadians were disgusted by the behaviour of anti-vaccine protesters, and said he would not be intimidated by those who hurled abuse.

The Canadian prime minister spoke as central Ottawa remained blockaded by dozens of trucks and other vehicles after thousands descended upon Parliament Hill on Saturday to protest against Covid-19 vaccine mandates.

Police said they were investigating possible criminal charges after protesters urinated on the National War Memorial, danced on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, and used the statue of Canadian hero Terry Fox to display an anti-vaccine statement. Some also harassed volunteers at a soup kitchen and flew Nazi flags.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/31/canada-anti-vaccine-protests-criminal-charges

It's a shit show.

[Alan Klein]

Interesting reports.  Natural immunity is better than vaccines; both are better by themselves than neither.

The CDC is finally recognizing 'natural immunity' — legislators should follow suit
The report finally acknowledges what many have suspected for a long time — that surviving COVID-19 provides excellent natural immunity not only repeat infection but also to hospitalization and death for the delta variant of COVID-19. 

The pattern of improved protection after natural infection makes sense. It always has. That’s how immunity against infections works. That is why vaccines work. The COVID-19 vaccines were developed to mimic a natural infection based on the original virus that was identified in 2019, what biologists call the "wildtype" strain of SARS-CoV-2. The vaccines, especially the commonest mRNA-based ones, use the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, the protein that acts as a key to enter cells and cause infection. By blocking that entry with vaccine-induced antibodies, infection is prevented.   

In contrast, during a natural infection, the human body is exposed to all parts of the virus, including the spike protein. When the immune system responds to enable recovery from the infection, it is broader and more diverse, with a greater ability to defend against any future SARS-CoV-2 virus variants. Therefore, while mutations naturally form in the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein through the process of viral evolution, the targeted vaccine-based approach to attack the spike protein, while still effective, is not as robust as the armamentarium created from surviving a true infection, and most effective in combination with vaccination. 

What is clear from the new CDC report over all periods is this — the worst group to be in is the nonvaccinated group without prior COVID-19. That group is the most likely to be infected, and if also at risk for severe disease — older 65 years of age, obese, chronically ill or immunocompromised — the most likely to die from an infection. Therefore, if you are in this group, please get vaccinated!
https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/592457-the-cdc-is-finally-recognizing-natural-immunity-legislators-should-follow

[Robert Roaldi]

Interesting reports.  Natural immunity is better than vaccines; ...

Not always the case. This has been discussed before.

[Alan Klein]

Not always the case. This has been discussed before.

The article is based on a CDC report dated  January 28, 2022, so it's the latest data.  I'm trying to follow the science. Don't you want me to?
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm

[Robert Roaldi]

The article is based on a CDC report dated  January 28, 2022, so it's the latest data.  I'm trying to follow the science. Don't you want me to?
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm

Since when do you believe anything the CDC reports? Since when do you believe scientists? Did you cherry pick the parts of the report that agreed with you? Your track record on these things is not good.

As has been discussed before, there are viruses for which man-made vaccines that work better than "natural" immunity and there are those for which the opposite is true. This report, and I haven't read it yet so I'm taking your word for what it says, seems to indicate something about Covid. It's not clear to me if it covers all mutations, that is, might there be some for which this is not true. I may have time to look it over later but it does not look promising.

It's an interesting finding, but it's not necessarily something that calls for a change in our actions. If "naturally acquired" immunity works better than a man-made vaccine, but acquiring the disease kills a significant proportion of those infected, it might not help us much at all. But if the lethality of future mutations is greatly decreased, this might be good news.

With many colds and flus, we acquire natural immunity but it wears off quickly and the viruses change, so even if "natural" is better than "man-made", the advantage may be moot. It depends. Still, it may be another weapon in the arsenal.

In the future, please alert us if/when you are ready to accept the findings of scientists.

[Alan Klein]

Since when do you believe anything the CDC reports? Since when do you believe scientists? Did you cherry pick the parts of the report that agreed with you? Your track record on these things is not good.

As has been discussed before, there are viruses for which man-made vaccines that work better than "natural" immunity and there are those for which the opposite is true. This report, and I haven't read it yet so I'm taking your word for what it says, seems to indicate something about Covid. It's not clear to me if it covers all mutations, that is, might there be some for which this is not true. I may have time to look it over later but it does not look promising.

It's an interesting finding, but it's not necessarily something that calls for a change in our actions. If "naturally acquired" immunity works better than a man-made vaccine, but acquiring the disease kills a significant proportion of those infected, it might not help us much at all. But if the lethality of future mutations is greatly decreased, this might be good news.

With many colds and flus, we acquire natural immunity but it wears off quickly and the viruses change, so even if "natural" is better than "man-made", the advantage may be moot. It depends. Still, it may be another weapon in the arsenal.

In the future, please alert us if/when you are ready to accept the findings of scientists.

I'm only reporting what they say.  Is it true?  I don't know any more than you.  I'm just reporting it.  The next report could reverse this one.  That's the problem.  It's that there hasn't been much consistency.   From a personal understanding, it seems likely that natural immunity should be better than vaccines.  But then, I'm not a scientist. 

[Chris Kern]

The article is based on a CDC report dated  January 28, 2022, so it's the latest data. . . .
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm

This report, and I haven't read it yet so I'm taking your word for what it says, seems to indicate something about Covid. It's not clear to me if it covers all mutations . . .

It doesn't.  It reflects data that were collected before the Omicron variant began circulating in the United States.  The data also were collected before "booster" doses of the coronavirus vaccines were generally authorized and recommended.

Vaccination protected against COVID-19 and related hospitalization, and surviving a previous infection protected against a reinfection and related hospitalization during periods of predominantly Alpha and Delta variant transmission, before the emergence of Omicron; evidence suggests decreased protection from both vaccine- and infection-induced immunity against Omicron infections, although additional protection with widespread receipt of booster COVID-19 vaccine doses is expected. Initial infection among unvaccinated persons increases risk for serious illness, hospitalization, long-term sequelae, and death; by November 30, 2021, approximately 130,781 residents of California and New York had died from COVID-19. Thus, vaccination remains the safest and primary strategy to prevent SARS-CoV-2 infections, associated complications, and onward transmission. Primary COVID-19 vaccination, additional doses, and booster doses are recommended by CDC’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices to ensure that all eligible persons are up to date with COVID-19 vaccination, which provides the most robust protection against initial infection, severe illness, hospitalization, long-term sequelae, and death.

The data summarized in the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report at the link above suggest that individuals infected with the Delta variant in California and New York between May and November of last year, prior to the emergence of Omicron, experienced more robust immunity against subsequent SARS-CoV-2 infection whether or not they had been vaccinated than individuals who previously had only received the initial (i.e., not "boosted") doses of the three vaccines administered in those states earlier in the year.  The report simply offers another increment of information about the virus.  I wouldn't read anything more into it.

[Alan Klein]

It doesn't.  It reflects data that were collected before the Omicron variant began circulating in the United States.  The data also were collected before "booster" doses of the coronavirus vaccines were generally authorized and recommended.

The data summarized in the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report at the link above suggest that individuals infected with the Delta variant in California and New York between May and November of last year, prior to the emergence of Omicron, experienced more robust immunity against subsequent SARS-CoV-2 infection whether or not they had been vaccinated than individuals who previously had only received the initial (i.e., not "boosted") doses of the three vaccines administered in those states earlier in the year.  The report simply offers another increment of information about the virus.  I wouldn't read anything more into it.

So you're claiming the news article was wrong based on another scientific report that they didn't report on.  Fake news.  What else is new?   Like I said, how does the ordinary citizen know what to believe?  You proved my point.  You can't trust anyone.  You have to be your own counsel. 

By the way, you're not a scientist.  So why should I believe what you said and "...not read anything more into it"?  The article I read says natural immunity is more effective.  Just because there was no study yet of variants after Delta doesn't disprove that. Aren't you jumping to conclusions?  But you add to the confusion about even scientific data I've complained about in trying to decipher what everyone is saying.  The poor layman is only left with more confusion. Is natural immunity more or less effective than vaccinations?