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Author Topic: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine  (Read 107106 times)

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1160 on: April 14, 2021, 01:50:53 pm »

Fauci shutdown J&J vaccine scaring people even more.  Instead of being a tyrant,  he should have revealed the concern and let people decide if they still wanted the shots. One death in six million is 1/30th the death rate of the pill at one in 200,000. 
https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-us-covid-johnson-vaccine-fauci-20210414-5kxzkualbraytmurnscadphec4-story.html

After lecturing us for weeks about how the avg lay person can't understand research findings, you now want the authorities to abdicate their responsibility and to leave a medical choice up to a joe on the street.

Do you want the era of snake oil salesmen to make a comeback?

Let me ask you something, if the NY Daily News had come out in full support of Fauci, would you be calling them sellouts and purveyors of fake news?
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faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1161 on: April 14, 2021, 02:09:19 pm »

Fauci shutdown J&J vaccine scaring people even more.  Instead of being a tyrant,  he should have revealed the concern and let people decide if they still wanted the shots. One death in six million is 1/30th the death rate of the pill at one in 200,000. 
https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-us-covid-johnson-vaccine-fauci-20210414-5kxzkualbraytmurnscadphec4-story.html

I read the article you linked to and didn't see the death rate for the pill you cited. I just saw stuff about Dr. Fauci saying Tucker Carlson was spreading crazy conspiracy theories. I did see the death rate for the pill on a commie/lib news show, but took your advice and disregarded it. Now it seems you believe the commie/lib news, so I am confused.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 02:18:50 pm by faberryman »
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1162 on: April 14, 2021, 02:13:44 pm »

Nope. You appealed to Dr. Fauxi's authority, who IS (supposedly) "an expert in the field of question" (virology)

Dr. Fauci is an immunologist and has been recognized and honored as one of the world's leading scientists in his field for decades. His contributions to the understanding, treatment, and prevention of multiple diseases, which were previously considered fatal, has prolonged and saved an untold number of lives. Those contributions have been cited, used, and carried forward by medical researchers around the world and led to his earning the respect, gratitude, and honors he has received from the world medical community, long before anyone ever heard of COVID-19.

The disrespect and criticism that he has received in the past year, from those those with an agenda entirely unrelated to medical science and the advances derived in saving peoples' lives, is entirely undeserved. They may serve some other purpose, but do nothing whatever to undermine his well deserved respect in the medical community as a researcher, scientist, and doctor.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1163 on: April 14, 2021, 02:23:04 pm »

After lecturing us for weeks about how the avg lay person can't understand research findings, you now want the authorities to abdicate their responsibility and to leave a medical choice up to a joe on the street.

Do you want the era of snake oil salesmen to make a comeback?

Let me ask you something, if the NY Daily News had come out in full support of Fauci, would you be calling them sellouts and purveyors of fake news?
We don't need a nanny state. Final decisions are already made by "joes on the street" to get or not get the vaccine safe or not safe. We decide, not Fauci. We didn't need Fauci to stop Johnson vaccinations midstream for such a relatively minor risk.   With a one in a million death, that's less than most other medicines that aren't pulled off the market, why not leave it up to people and their doctors to decide?  After all, if teenage girls can make a decision to take birth control pills with a risk of death thirty times more dangerous, certainly adults can make similar choices about their health with safer medicines like the Johnson vaccine.

Additionally, there were millions of people who had appointments to get the Johnson vaccine.  Now they're walking around without it, and will possibly get Covid and die from that in larger numbers while waiting until the CDC to make up it's mind.  The CDC should have announced the risk, and let people decide to get the vaccine or not. We are all faced with that regardless of the medicine we take.

Also, if the government and CDC, and FDA are pulling it, it's harder to argue with people who rather not take it.  The problem is Fauci is a politician.  He's afraid to make a decision without talking out of both sides of his mouth.  I guess that's why he's been in his position in the government for thirty years.  He knows how to play it safe.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1164 on: April 14, 2021, 02:33:43 pm »

Dr. Fauci is an immunologist and has been recognized and honored as one of the world's leading scientists in his field for decades. His contributions to the understanding, treatment, and prevention of multiple diseases, which were previously considered fatal, has prolonged and saved an untold number of lives. Those contributions have been cited, used, and carried forward by medical researchers around the world and led to his earning the respect, gratitude, and honors he has received from the world medical community, long before anyone ever heard of COVID-19.

The disrespect and criticism that he has received in the past year, from those those with an agenda entirely unrelated to medical science and the advances derived in saving peoples' lives, is entirely undeserved. They may serve some other purpose, but do nothing whatever to undermine his well deserved respect in the medical community as a researcher, scientist, and doctor.

Appeal to authority, again.

And before I hear again that Wikipedia is an authority on the Appeal to Authority fallacy (i.e., that it is not a fallacy if the authority is real), let me clarify something (bold mine):

Quote
As Alfred Sidgwick, a British logician, wrote in his Fallacies: A View of Logic from the Practical Side:

A man may have all the wisdom and learning of an Aristotle, and yet be quite mistaken on a given point. The recognition of this fact tends to make us value conclusions more on their merits and less on the merits of those who advance them.

Fallacies: A view of Logic from the Practical Side (1883) by Alfred Sidgwick.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1165 on: April 14, 2021, 02:35:17 pm »

Maybe "entirely predictable" would be a better choice of words.

In case it is not clear, I am speechless that you consider it "perfectly normal" to beat someone up because of their personality.

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1166 on: April 14, 2021, 02:35:55 pm »

I read the article you linked to and didn't see the death rate for the pill you cited. I just saw stuff about Dr. Fauci saying Tucker Carlson was spreading crazy conspiracy theories. I did see the death rate for the pill on a commie/lib news show, but took your advice and disregarded it. Now it seems you believe the commie/lib news, so I am confused.
Oh, stop conflating Fox with my statement.  It's got nothing to do with it.  I heard somewhere else about the 1 in 200,000 deaths from birth control pills.  I just googled and found that 300-400 women die every year from hormonal contraception.  The point is we'd have been better off making the decision to take the Johnson vaccine or not based on the statistics.  We're not stupid.  We all calculate risk and chance and harm every day when we get out of bed. We didn't need the government to pull it when millions are lining up to get it.  What are they going to do now?  They lost their chance.  Now they might have to go to the end of the line.   

By increasing the risk of blood clots, stroke, and heart attack, hormonal contraception leads to the death of 300-400 women every year.
https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2019/03/49896/

faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1167 on: April 14, 2021, 02:36:26 pm »

The CDC should have announced the risk, and let people decide to get the vaccine or not. We are all faced with that regardless of the medicine we take.

Is that the way the CDC usually does it? Does the CDC approve every medicine that is submitted to it, and just publish the death rates, and then let the public decide whether they want to take it or not?

I'd be interested in what the death rates are for the medicines you take just to gauge your level of risk aversion.  I can't find the death rates for any of the medications I take.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 02:40:10 pm by faberryman »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1168 on: April 14, 2021, 02:37:54 pm »

Is that the way the CDC usually does it? Does the CDC approve every medicine that is submitted to it, and just publish the death rates, and then let the public decide whether they want to take it or not?

Aren't you confusing CDC with FDA?

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1169 on: April 14, 2021, 02:40:51 pm »

Is that the way the CDC usually does it? Does the CDC approve every medicine that is submitted to it, and just publish the death rates, and then let the public decide whether they want to take it or not?

I'd be interested in what the death rates are for the medicines you take just to gauge your level of risk aversion.  I can't find the death rates for any of the medications I take.
They have the legal right to do what they did.  I just think it was stupid for the reasons I gave above.

faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1170 on: April 14, 2021, 02:53:50 pm »

Aren't you confusing CDC with FDA?

Yes, the FDA approves medicines. I don't know which agency put a pause on the J&J vaccine. Ask Alan.
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faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1171 on: April 14, 2021, 03:01:54 pm »

They have the legal right to do what they did.  I just think it was stupid for the reasons I gave above.

Is that how you think medicines should be handled? The government should approve every medicine that is submitted to it, and just publish the death rates, and then let the public decide whether they want to take it or not?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1172 on: April 14, 2021, 03:03:07 pm »

Yes, the FDA approves medicines. I don't know which agency put a pause on the J&J vaccine. Ask Alan.
Why ask me?  Ask Fauci.  He's the one bragging about pulling it.

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1173 on: April 14, 2021, 03:09:29 pm »

Is that how you think medicines should be handled? The government should approve every medicine that is submitted to it, and just publish the death rates, and then let the public decide whether they want to take it or not?
You know I never suggested that.  As usual, you're putting words in my mouth that I never said. The Johnson vaccine was already approved as are birth control pills.  I think around 6 million Americans already have taken the J&J vaccine.  If they found one death out of those people, you don't pull the vaccine when millions are lining up to get it trying to avoid deadly Covid.  It seems to reasonable people that the risks don't justify stopping the vaccine, even just pausing it "for days or weeks" as Fauci said. 

TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1174 on: April 14, 2021, 03:10:26 pm »

Virologists exist to write research papers, collect titles and positions, and associated remuneration

Virologists that provide direct patient care as doctors exist to diagnose and treat people suffering from viral diseases. Virologists that perform research exist to advance the understanding, prevention, and treatment of viral diseases. Many virologists devote their lives to both patient care and research. They do so to save lives and alleviate human suffering from infectious diseases. Given the respect I have for your intelligence, I'm surprised that you would describe them the way you have above.

The sickest that I have ever been in my life was as a healthy and athletic 20-year old that was hospitalized due to influenza. From the first symptoms to hospitalization was just a matter of hours. Thanks to the medical care that I received, I recovered quickly. The second worst illness I've had was viral pneumonia decades later. Thanks to antiviral drug treatments that were available, I again recovered quickly and without hospitalization. The medical care that I received was informed and made possible by the prior research and advances in treatment by virologists. So, I for one am quite grateful for the work they've done over many years. Of course, I'm also grateful to virologists for their work in prevention of diseases that I've thankfully never suffered from, such as small pox and polio, due to their work in developing vaccines.

So to doctors, scientists, virologists, immunologists, epidemiologists, I say thanks. I'm grateful.

not to run my life. When they do, they are petty tyrants, not virologists.

The advice and expertise of virologists and other scientists is sought out by policy makers and decision makers in government. They are not the ones making those decisions that appear to be running your life nor are they "petty tyrants". If you feel victimized, please blame the right people for your victimhood.
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faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1175 on: April 14, 2021, 03:12:48 pm »

It seems to reasonable people that the risks don't justify stopping the vaccine, even just pausing it "for days or weeks" as Fauci said.

Who are these reasonable people you are talking about?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1176 on: April 14, 2021, 03:21:10 pm »

Virologists that provide direct patient care as doctors exist to diagnose and treat people suffering from viral diseases. Virologists that perform research exist to advance the understanding, prevention, and treatment of viral diseases. Many virologists devote their lives to both patient care and research. They do so to save lives and alleviate human suffering from infectious diseases. Given the respect I have for your intelligence, I'm surprised that you would describe them the way you have above.

The sickest that I have ever been in my life was as a healthy and athletic 20-year old that was hospitalized due to influenza. From the first symptoms to hospitalization was just a matter of hours. Thanks to the medical care that I received, I recovered quickly. The second worst illness I've had was viral pneumonia decades later. Thanks to antiviral drug treatments that were available, I again recovered quickly and without hospitalization. The medical care that I received was informed and made possible by the prior research and advances in treatment by virologists. So, I for one am quite grateful for the work they've done over many years. Of course, I'm also grateful to virologists for their work in prevention of diseases that I've thankfully never suffered from, such as small pox and polio, due to their work in developing vaccines.

So to doctors, scientists, virologists, immunologists, epidemiologists, I say thanks. I'm grateful.

The advice and expertise of virologists and other scientists is sought out by policy makers and decision makers in government. They are not the ones making those decisions that appear to be running your life nor are they "petty tyrants". If you feel victimized, please blame the right people for your victimhood.
I believe the point Slobodan was making was that doctors should not be making public policy.  They weren't elected.  Their position is only to provide data, choices, statistics, and recommendations.  Of course, most people like power, including virologists, and I'd posit Fauci.  So due to their position, they become little tyrants deciding public policy that should be left to elected officials who respond to the public. 

The public should decide individually how we should live.  That's what freedom is all about. If we need to give up personal liberty at a time during a crisis, the next in line are elected officials who represent us, not experts, either scientific or economic.  We don't need a bunch of petty virologists or economists, meaning well I'm sure, who because of their ego, thinking they know what's best for everyone, to decide how we should live.  At least politicians, egotistical and petty as well,  respond somewhat to the public.

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1177 on: April 14, 2021, 03:24:15 pm »

Who are these reasonable people you are talking about?
Apparently not you.

TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1178 on: April 14, 2021, 03:25:18 pm »

Appeal to authority, again.

And before I hear again that Wikipedia is an authority on the Appeal to Authority fallacy (i.e., that it is not a fallacy if the authority is real), let me clarify something (bold mine):

I made no appeal to authority. I broadly and correctly stated Dr. Fauci's field of specialization, accomplishments, and place in the scientific and medical communities. I have no idea why that would trigger your response, except for my stated view that criticism from those outside of his field of expertise has in no way diminished the respect of those within his field of expertise.

Relax.
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faberryman

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1179 on: April 14, 2021, 03:31:03 pm »

I believe the point Slobodan was making was that doctors should not be making public policy.  They weren't elected.  Their position is only to provide data, choices, statistics, and recommendations.  Of course, most people like power, including virologists, and I'd posit Fauci.  So due to their position, they become little tyrants deciding public policy that should be left to elected officials who respond to the public. 

The public should decide individually how we should live.  That's what freedom is all about. If we need to give up personal liberty at a time during a crisis, the next in line are elected officials who represent us, not experts, either scientific or economic.  We don't need a bunch of petty virologists or economists, meaning well I'm sure, who because of their ego, thinking they know what's best for everyone, to decide how we should live.  At least politicians, egotistical and petty as well,  respond somewhat to the public.

Do you know the person, and his or her position, who pulled the J&J vaccine? The CDC website says this:

"CDC and FDA have recommended a pause in the use of the Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen COVID-19 vaccine in the United States out of an abundance of caution, effective Tuesday, April 13."

It is interesting that it says that the "CDC and FDA have recommended". Who have they recommended it to? Who acted on their recommendation? It wouldn't surprise me if it was a political appointee, perhaps even at the state level. Do you know?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 04:29:47 pm by faberryman »
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