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Author Topic: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine  (Read 68830 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2380 on: December 07, 2021, 06:24:54 pm »

It's not science, it's politics.
You got your degree in science or political science where? Or any degree, high school or otherwise.
Those of us who've followed you for awhile understand you can't and will never answer that simple question.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2381 on: December 07, 2021, 09:49:40 pm »

... And that adds to the suspicion of many people who then don't want to take the vaccine. Now I don't agree with them.  I've taken mine including the booster.  And you might call them conspiracists. ...

I read one political commentary (sorry, no longer know the link or who wrote it) who separated anti-vaxxers into two broad groups. The first group is from the MAGA, freedom-fetish, militia AR15-lovers crowd, and they are the ones we tend to allude to in these discussions by default. But he described a second group, people who after a lifetime of being lied to about the Gulf of Tonkin, WMD, semi-secret wars around the world, take the point of view that American governments can't be trusted about anything. It's hard not to have some sympathy for that point of view, I have to reluctantly admit. :)

I heard an even different point of view expressed by Michael Moore in the introductory remarks during a recent podcast. At first he was wary about the vaccines himself because he was worried that Trump really had helped create them, in which case Moore assumed they could easily be part of some con, like Trump University for instance. But after informing himself that the researchers and labs that had developed and tested the vaccines had been doing that work for years and that really Trump didn't have much to do with them directly at all that he decided he was ok with the vaccines.
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Chris Kern

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2382 on: December 08, 2021, 09:54:25 am »

I read one political commentary (sorry, no longer know the link or who wrote it) who separated anti-vaxxers into two broad groups.

That's probably a gross oversimplification.  It's difficult to get reliable statistical information (at least here in the United States) on why some people are declining to be vaccinated, but there has been some reliable reporting that suggests many of the holdouts are not motivated by political ideology.

Quote
Interviews this past week with dozens of people in 17 states presented a portrait of the unvaccinated in the United States, people driven by a wide mix of sometimes overlapping fears, conspiracy theories, concern about safety and generalized skepticism of powerful institutions tied to the vaccines, including the pharmaceutical industry and the federal government. . . .

Though some states like Missouri and Arkansas have significantly lagged the nation in vaccination rates, unvaccinated Americans are, to varying degrees, everywhere: In Cook County, Ill., which includes Chicago, 51 percent of residents are fully vaccinated. Los Angeles County is barely higher, at 53 percent. In Wake County, N.C., part of the liberal, high-tech Research Triangle area, the vaccination rate is 55 percent.

The New York Times story in the link above was last updated in October, but there is at least some anecdotal evidence that the spread of the Delta variant of the coronavirus and the threat posed by the Omicron variant have motivated many of the "persuadable reluctants" to finally get at least a first dose of one of the coronavirus vaccines.  And the fact that young children are now eligible for the vaccines is improving the overall vaccination rates.

As in many other democratic countries, there are right-wing populists in the United States who claim they are refusing to be vaccinated for political reasons—their actual behavior is difficult to survey accurately and some of them may falsely be proclaiming their refusal simply to vent their anger at the "elites"—but we've always had some proportion of the population which is opposed to being vaccinated against various pathogens because of religious convictions, fear of injections, or simple ignorance.  Unfortunately, because of the infectiousness of the SARS-CoV-2 virus and the severity of the disease it often produces, infected "anti-vaxxers" at times have overwhelmed the hospital capacity in parts of the country—and, of course, they pose a threat to those around them.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 10:04:10 am by Chris Kern »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2383 on: December 08, 2021, 10:58:11 am »

I read one political commentary (sorry, no longer know the link or who wrote it) who separated anti-vaxxers into two broad groups. The first group is from the MAGA, freedom-fetish, militia AR15-lovers crowd, and they are the ones we tend to allude to in these discussions by default. But he described a second group, people who after a lifetime of being lied to about the Gulf of Tonkin, WMD, semi-secret wars around the world, take the point of view that American governments can't be trusted about anything. It's hard not to have some sympathy for that point of view, I have to reluctantly admit. :)

I heard an even different point of view expressed by Michael Moore in the introductory remarks during a recent podcast. At first he was wary about the vaccines himself because he was worried that Trump really had helped create them, in which case Moore assumed they could easily be part of some con, like Trump University for instance. But after informing himself that the researchers and labs that had developed and tested the vaccines had been doing that work for years and that really Trump didn't have much to do with them directly at all that he decided he was ok with the vaccines.

There are still loads of Americans who think Pres Kennedy was killed by the CIA.  And then there are those who think our landing on the moon was filmed on a Hollywood stage set.  Isn't Elvis still walking around?  :)

digitaldog

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2384 on: December 08, 2021, 10:59:53 am »

There are still loads of Americans who think Pres Kennedy was killed by the CIA.  And then there are those who think our landing on the moon was filmed on a Hollywood stage set. 
So your point is, there are very stuipd Americans? We (the royal we and most of your readers here) know this from extensive experience.  ;)

Isn't Elvis still walking around?:)
You've just proved my  point!
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2385 on: December 08, 2021, 11:10:55 am »

That's probably a gross oversimplification.  It's difficult to get reliable statistical information (at least here in the United States) on why some people are declining to be vaccinated, but there has been some reliable reporting that suggests many of the holdouts are not motivated by political ideology.

The New York Times story in the link above was last updated in October, but there is at least some anecdotal evidence that the spread of the Delta variant of the coronavirus and the threat posed by the Omicron variant have motivated many of the "persuadable reluctants" to finally get at least a first dose of one of the coronavirus vaccines.  And the fact that young children are now eligible for the vaccines is improving the overall vaccination rates.

As in many other democratic countries, there are right-wing populists in the United States who claim they are refusing to be vaccinated for political reasons—their actual behavior is difficult to survey accurately and some of them may falsely be proclaiming their refusal simply to vent their anger at the "elites"—but we've always had some proportion of the population which is opposed to being vaccinated against various pathogens because of religious convictions, fear of injections, or simple ignorance.  Unfortunately, because of the infectiousness of the SARS-CoV-2 virus and the severity of the disease it often produces, infected "anti-vaxxers" at times have overwhelmed the hospital capacity in parts of the country—and, of course, they pose a threat to those around them.
Robert Kennedy Jr, a Democrat and liberal and nephew of the late President Kennedy, is a fervent anti-vaxxer, and not just about Covid.  So yes, it doesn't necessarily follow political affiliations.  I'm a Republican but wholly believe in vaccines although I had stopped taking the annual flu when I seemed to have gotten the flu afterward about twelve years ago.  I took it again this year because my daughter gave birth and suggested it would be better for my grandson's protection. 

When I was in the military during the VietNam era and was sent to Japan, I took a whole series of vaccines.  Typhus, Typhoid, and others.  I can't believe so many military members are refusing to take Covid.  You can't refuse to take vaccines in the military especially knowing they can send you anywhere in the world where weird diseases are prominent.  The military can't afford sick troops to care for. So I agree those that who refuse should be disciplined.  They're stupid as well as insubordinate.

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2386 on: December 08, 2021, 11:14:27 am »

Also, those that claim Trumpers, Republicans, conservatives, are against it can't explain why there are so many Europeans opposed to vaccination who know nothing about US politics. 

digitaldog

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2387 on: December 08, 2021, 02:02:49 pm »

Also, those that claim Trumpers, Republicans, conservatives, are against it can't explain why there are so many Europeans opposed to vaccination who know nothing about US politics.
Because their leaders act like Trump (remember the 500 people he came into contact with when he KNEW he tested positive for Covid-19? Of course you don't):
Quote
Leaked video shows former UK aide joke about alleged party during lockdown
UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson is facing fierce criticism after a leaked video obtained by CNN affiliate ITV News shows senior Downing Street staff joking about an alleged Christmas party last year, for his staff during last year's lockdown.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2388 on: December 08, 2021, 02:20:13 pm »

... can't explain why there are so many Europeans opposed to vaccination who know nothing about US politics.

Because stupidity isn't confined to America.

Heck there are even stupid people in Canada! :)
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digitaldog

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2389 on: December 08, 2021, 03:11:01 pm »

Because stupidity isn't confined to America.
Only 29% it appears, at least in terms of stupidity and vaccines. I'm rounding down as there are a few that can't get one for legitimate reasons.
Dec 02, 2021
As of this week, federal data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) show that 70.2% of the total population in the United States have received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine.
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-by-race-ethnicity/
The current population of the United States of America is 333,781,277 as of Wednesday, December 8, 2021, based on Worldometer. Just do the math.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2390 on: December 08, 2021, 03:39:41 pm »

Why do you think it's solely driven my omicron?  Or politics? Vaccine mandates work.  But here we are again - a democrat does something (pretty much anything) and you automagically assume that it's driven by political self interest at the expense of their constituents.   Listen, I'm all for freedom.  If someone wants to take a gun into a bulletproof room and aim it at their own head, be my guest.  But what's being argued for by Trumpy types is that they have the right to wander around holding a thousand-round gun with 999 blanks and one live round, and randomly pull the trigger at strangers.

Unbelievable, but that's where we are. 
One other thing.  NYC's constitution didn't make the mayor a king any more than the president is a king.  Neither can mandate things except in certain instances. 

The previous mayor, Bloomberg, tried to make New Yorkers healthier by declaring drinks over 16 ounces illegal under the theory they contain too much sugar. He also used the Health Department to provide credibility.  He probably was right about the health part. But the courts overruled him saying he isn't a king. 

Changing these things requires the City Council to vote which they never did.  This situation with Mayor DeBlasio regarding vaccination mandates smacks of the same issue.  He also is using the Health Department to support his mandate.  But, he isn't a king either and I suspect the courts will rule similarly and declare his mandate illegal. 

digitaldog

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2391 on: December 08, 2021, 03:42:19 pm »

One other thing.  NYC's constitution didn't make the mayor a king any more than the president is a king.  Neither can mandate things except in certain instances. 
George Washington wasn't a king. Yet he mandated vaccines.
https://www.msnbc.com/the-week/watch/bringing-our-revolutionary-past-to-the-pandemic-117717573606

Quote
To counter both the fear and the actual disease itself George Washington ordered a bold move on February 6, 1777, to have the entire Continental Army inoculated. At this juncture it became a matter of policy. This act alone may have saved the Revolution. The process was simple. A physician lanced one of the infected patient’s pustules with a knife or scalpel and then inserted the infected blade under the skin of a healthy person. Generally the inoculated person contracted the disease, but in a much milder form.

The policy of inoculation was written by Washington in a directive to the Continental Army’s Medical Director, Dr. William Shippen. The directive ordered that all troops coming through Philadelphia were to be inoculated. Urgency was at stake with Washington writing, “Necessity not only authorizes but seems to require the measure, for should the disorder infect the Army . . . we should have more to dread from it, than from the Sword of the Enemy." Washington informed Congress a month later of the plan, which was carried out after that covertly, so the British were unaware of what Washington was doing. Washington chose to have his soldiers inoculated during the winter for strategic reasons. Fighting had ebbed and most campaigning took place during warmer weather. By inoculating his troops during the winter Washington adroitly gave his troops enough time to recover from the effects of inoculation before fighting commenced. Most of the inoculations took place at the Morristown, New Jersey encampment and in facilities in Philadelphia. The risk was enormous as less than a quarter of those serving at the time in the Continental Army had contracted the disease naturally.

Washington was always a better strategist than tactician. Even though he lost more battles than he won he had command of the larger picture. In this case he scored a seemingly impossible victory against an invisible enemy.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2392 on: December 08, 2021, 03:42:44 pm »

The courts have been ruling Biden's mandates illegal as well for the similar reason it requires an act of Congress, at least.

Pavlich: Biden gets walloped by the courts
https://thehill.com/opinion/opinion/584818-pavlich-biden-gets-walloped-by-the-courts

digitaldog

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2393 on: December 08, 2021, 03:49:41 pm »

The courts have been ruling Biden's mandates illegal as well for the similar reason it requires an act of Congress, at least.

Pavlich: Biden gets walloped by the courts
https://thehill.com/opinion/opinion/584818-pavlich-biden-gets-walloped-by-the-courts
Too bad 'The Hill' didn't spell out the entire story:
U.S. court temporarily halts Biden’s vaccine mandate nationwide
It isn't over. Unlike all the courts and 60 odd cases that laughed Trump out of his silly Big Lie about the election.
Biden may lose. But the fat lady hasn't stop singing yet. Even if you and "The Hill" are not listening......
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PeterAit

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2394 on: December 08, 2021, 06:00:02 pm »

One other thing.  NYC's constitution didn't make the mayor a king any more than the president is a king.

NY City does not have a constitution.
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digitaldog

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2395 on: December 08, 2021, 06:21:41 pm »

NY City does not have a constitution.
Funneling the inner Klein:
City, state, what's the difference? No one cares.” 😝
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2396 on: December 08, 2021, 09:13:57 pm »

NY City does not have a constitution.
You're right.  It has a charter.  But the mayor still has to follow its rules. My point hasn't changed. The mayor isn't king. NYS has a constitution.  Cities within its jurisdiction have to follow the state's constitution as well.  Governors aren't kings either.

digitaldog

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2397 on: December 08, 2021, 09:30:27 pm »

You're right.  It has a charter.  But the mayor still has to follow its rules. My point hasn't changed. The mayor isn't king. NYS has a constitution.  Cities within its jurisdiction have to follow the state's constitution as well.  Governors aren't kings either.
You will illustrate where in the NYS Constitution it states Bloomberg can not invoke such a mandate.
Rules as you “suggest”.
There is this you can ignore:
https://www.governor.ny.gov/executive-order/no-11-declaring-disaster-emergency-state-new-york
And:
https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/publications/youraba/2020/youraba-april-2020/law-guides-legal-approach-to-pandemic/
Quote
Under the U.S. Constitution’s 10th Amendment and U.S. Supreme Court decisions over nearly 200 years, state governments have the primary authority to control the spread of dangerous diseases within their jurisdictions. The 10th Amendment, which gives states all powers not specifically given to the federal government, allows them the authority to take public health emergency actions, such as setting quarantines and business restrictions.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 09:38:44 pm by digitaldog »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2398 on: December 09, 2021, 09:46:32 am »

NY City does not have a constitution.
The question is whether the NYC mayor has the unilateral right to impose this mandate and whether it's gone too far or the opposite, too selective.  A previous mayor tried to impose unilateral health rules and was shot down.  Of course, the circumstances aren't exactly the same.  But the question still is whether he can do it without the City council or state legislature authority.

Bloomberg's ban on big sodas is unconstitutional: appeals court
New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s controversial plan to keep large sugary drinks out of restaurants and other eateries was rejected by a state appeals court on Tuesday, which said he had overstepped his authority in trying to impose the ban.

The law, which would have prohibited those businesses from selling sodas and other sugary beverages larger than 16 ounces (473 ml), “violated the state principle of separation of powers,” the First Department of the state Supreme Court’s Appellate Division said.

The decision, upholding a lower court ruling in March that struck down the law, dealt a blow to Bloomberg’s attempt to advance the pioneering regulation as a way to combat obesity. Beverage makers and business groups, however, challenged it in court, arguing that the mayoral-appointed health board had gone too far when it approved the law.

A unanimous four-judge panel at the appeals court agreed, finding that the board had stepped beyond its power to regulate public health and usurped the policy-making role of the legislature.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sodaban-lawsuit/bloombergs-ban-on-big-sodas-is-unconstitutional-appeals-court-idUSBRE96T0UT20130730

digitaldog

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2399 on: December 09, 2021, 10:17:42 am »

As predicted: he can't illustrate where in the NYS Constitution it states Bloomberg can not invoke such a vaccine mandate.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 10:27:05 am by digitaldog »
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