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Author Topic: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine  (Read 33180 times)

degrub

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1500 on: May 13, 2021, 07:20:43 pm »

Alan,

There is no absolute, only shades of gray in the world.
As Chris's doctor stated, this is a public health policy decision, not science.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1501 on: May 13, 2021, 08:17:17 pm »

744 new deaths today in USA. Roughly the same in Canada per capita. So it appears that there are still plenty of freedom fighters there who think they don't need the vaccine.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1502 on: May 13, 2021, 09:41:42 pm »

So you recommend we shouldn't listen to experts at the CDC but rather to you and your doctor?

Yes, that's what he meant.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1503 on: May 14, 2021, 08:53:49 am »

Alan,

There is no absolute, only shades of gray in the world.
As Chris's doctor stated, this is a public health policy decision, not science.
Well, we had long discussions about taking the expert's advice.  My problem is that who are the experts.  According to my wife who considers herself an expert, "they're all full of it."  She doesn't believe any of them especially now that the decisions seem very political because the pressure is on from the public to get past the draconian rules.  So CDC got a call from Biden, and now they've moved on as he has dropping the mask.  The Democrats have gotten past the politics of the mask and they can't gain any advantage from it anymore. But the decision was more political then scientific.

But where does that leave the rest of us?  Is Chris's doctor and my wife right?  Or has the science allowed more finesse in our decisions?  If we're all fair about how this developed, one could argue that it's been a mess from the beginning. 

degrub

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1504 on: May 14, 2021, 10:29:52 am »

Well, we had long discussions about taking the expert's advice.  My problem is that who are the experts.  According to my wife who considers herself an expert, "they're all full of it."  She doesn't believe any of them especially now that the decisions seem very political because the pressure is on from the public to get past the draconian rules.  So CDC got a call from Biden, and now they've moved on as he has dropping the mask.  The Democrats have gotten past the politics of the mask and they can't gain any advantage from it anymore. But the decision was more political then scientific.

But where does that leave the rest of us?  Is Chris's doctor and my wife right?  Or has the science allowed more finesse in our decisions?  If we're all fair about how this developed, one could argue that it's been a mess from the beginning.

In short, and without despair, 1) making situational decisions with the knowledge we have (decision making with sparse, incomplete data and science), 2) doctor - Yes, your wife - dunno, you'll have to make a political decision on that one  ;), 3) Yes it has, but see (1), 4) THAT IS A TRUE STATEMENT !
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1505 on: May 14, 2021, 11:58:36 am »

Well, we had long discussions about taking the expert's advice.  My problem is that who are the experts.

Experts on what?

Epidemiology? Chance has it that epidemiologists probably know a bit more about it than, say, your wife.
Immunology? Chance has it that Immunologissts (like Dr. Fauci) know a bit more about it than, you, me, and your wife.

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According to my wife who considers herself an expert, "they're all full of it."

As the saying goes; she's entitled to her own opinion, not her own truth.

Truth is that as more and more people get vaccinated or have had Covid-19 and developed a good amount of antibodies, the reproduction rate will go down and it will become less likely that people infect each other. So, the modest positive effect of wearing mouth/nose masks, is further reduced, and therefore the need to have them on is also reducing. Also, those who have been vaccinated are less likely to need hospitalization (or if they do, less likely to need ICU care) if they still get infected.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1506 on: May 14, 2021, 10:24:41 pm »

Well, we had long discussions about taking the expert's advice.  My problem is that who are the experts.  According to my wife who considers herself an expert, "they're all full of it."  She doesn't believe any of them especially now that the decisions seem very political because the pressure is on from the public to get past the draconian rules.  So CDC got a call from Biden, and now they've moved on as he has dropping the mask.  The Democrats have gotten past the politics of the mask and they can't gain any advantage from it anymore. But the decision was more political then scientific.

But where does that leave the rest of us?  Is Chris's doctor and my wife right?  Or has the science allowed more finesse in our decisions?  If we're all fair about how this developed, one could argue that it's been a mess from the beginning.

Alan, after today, you make your own advice. 

The CDC, suddenly, without any additional evidence or data or studies decided that those whom are vaccinated can walk around without a mask.  It is like an epiphany came to them all at once ...

An epiphany that told them that the Joe Biden administration is royally screwing shit up with extended lockdowns, because inflation to go up by keeping supply low, schooling is messing with parents, Biden brought war too the Middle East, etc. 

It is almost like all of this is political, well maybe, who knows, perhaps it is, but hey, can we really tell given that the CDC ignored all science so long as it help the Biden admin with its goals and then dropped it when it did not?  Well, who can say, except for those who are not morons. 

What I find so funny here is that there is a large amount of people who treat this as honest to God news, as if half the country had not already been doing, for the last few months, everything the CDC is now suggesting. 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2021, 10:34:25 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1507 on: May 15, 2021, 08:19:07 am »

Experts on what?

Epidemiology? Chance has it that epidemiologists probably know a bit more about it than, say, your wife.
Immunology? Chance has it that Immunologissts (like Dr. Fauci) know a bit more about it than, you, me, and your wife.

As the saying goes; she's entitled to her own opinion, not her own truth.

Truth is that as more and more people get vaccinated or have had Covid-19 and developed a good amount of antibodies, the reproduction rate will go down and it will become less likely that people infect each other. So, the modest positive effect of wearing mouth/nose masks, is further reduced, and therefore the need to have them on is also reducing. Also, those who have been vaccinated are less likely to need hospitalization (or if they do, less likely to need ICU care) if they still get infected.

You're not making a definitive statement, Bart. "Reducing" is in the middle. It's maybe you can or maybe you shouldn't kind of advice, the same that we've been getting from the experts for 16 months. 

Which is it?  "You don't have to wear your masks if you've been vaccinated." OR, "You should wear your mask even if you've been vaccinated."

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1508 on: May 16, 2021, 08:05:48 am »

You're not making a definitive statement, Bart. "Reducing" is in the middle. It's maybe you can or maybe you shouldn't kind of advice, the same that we've been getting from the experts for 16 months.

There are no absolutes. As long as you do not encounter people who are spreading the virus, you do not need a mask (and its effectiveness is limited anyway), unless you want to protect them in case you are infected yourself (and being vaccinated does not mean you cannot transmit and infect others). 

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Which is it?  "You don't have to wear your masks if you've been vaccinated." OR, "You should wear your mask even if you've been vaccinated."

Depends on the context. Being vaccinated means that you reduce the chance of getting infected, but there is still some chance because the effectiveness is not 100%. Besides, the longer it spreads amongst people (and it needs people to spread it), there will be new mutations against which the current vaccines may be less effective. Also, we do not know yet how long the protection of the vaccine lasts, it's a novel virus after all and we're learning as we go. And different people produce different amounts of antibodies. So again, there are no absolutes.

So, if you want to reduce the risk of getting (re)infected, or spreading the virus yourself, it helps to wear a mask. Especially when physical distancing is difficult, or when ventilation is poor. Remember, the common nose/mouth masks are more effective in the prevention of infecting others than yourself, so it's a service to others and less of a self-protection measure.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1509 on: May 16, 2021, 11:32:49 am »

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1510 on: May 16, 2021, 12:27:09 pm »

Bill Maher was recently tested positive, depsite being vaccinated twice.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/05/15/bill-maher-tests-positive-for-covid-19-coronavirus-and-is-fully-vaccinated/?sh=626e8f837ebf

Which shows that, while the reaction of the human to the virus will probably be milder and most likely will not result in ICU care, people can still be infected, and thus infect others.
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dreed

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1511 on: May 19, 2021, 08:58:07 am »

Which shows that, while the reaction of the human to the virus will probably be milder and most likely will not result in ICU care, people can still be infected, and thus infect others.

Yes, this is recognised as a few people who've been vaccinated are developing COVID-19.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1512 on: May 19, 2021, 09:54:57 am »

Which shows that, while the reaction of the human to the virus will probably be milder and most likely will not result in ICU care, people can still be infected, and thus infect others.
Others can get vaccinated.  Why aren't they? Why should vaccinated people wear masks because others refuse to get the shots and often won't wear masks either?  In New Jersey where I live, you can just walk in and get your shots.  No waiting; no appointments.  They have more shots available than people who want them. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1513 on: May 19, 2021, 11:58:57 am »

Others can get vaccinated.  Why aren't they? Why should vaccinated people wear masks because others refuse to get the shots and often won't wear masks either? In New Jersey where I live, you can just walk in and get your shots.  No waiting; no appointments.  They have more shots available than people who want them.

Right! Who are the these people?
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1514 on: May 19, 2021, 01:58:14 pm »

Which shows that, while the reaction of the human to the virus will probably be milder and most likely will not result in ICU care, people can still be infected, and thus infect others.

Yes, and forever and ever and ever too, till the end of time.  So does that mean we should be wearing masks till the end of time too? 

Bart, do you also wash your hands every time you pet a dog or cat?  Do you leave your house with a helmet on?  As a photo editor, do you constantly worry about carpal tunnel?  Will you not go near a camp fire, since burning wood produces many of the same carcinogens that cigarettes do?   

Personally, I dont worry about any of these things, especially C-19 with a 0.05% IFR for those under 45, and 0.001% (or thereabouts) for the vaccinated. 
« Last Edit: May 19, 2021, 02:07:30 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1515 on: May 19, 2021, 03:29:31 pm »

Right! Who are the these people?
Who cares?

LesPalenik

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1516 on: May 19, 2021, 03:48:28 pm »

Quote from: LesPalenik on Today at 11:58:57 am
Right! Who are the these people?

Who cares?

After a lot of  research, I found that a good portion of the antivaxxers are Republicans.

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a significant number of Republicans are refusing to get the vaccines available to them, threatening to prevent the U.S. from reaching herd immunity and a return to prepandemic life.

Federal, state, and local officials, and the private sector, will face the challenge of having to figure out how to increase willingness to get vaccinated among those still on the fence, and ideally among the one-fifth of adults who have consistently said they would not get vaccinated or would do so only if required.“ The authors added: “Once this happens, efforts to encourage vaccination will become much harder, presenting a challenge to reaching the levels of herd immunity that are expected to be needed.”

Perhaps unsurprisingly, given Donald Trump’s refusal to get his own shot in public, and to do the absolute bare minimum when it comes to convincing his base of the importance of getting vaccinated, “vaccine hesitancy“ among Republicans is raging.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/04/republicans-anti-vaccine-herd-immunity
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1517 on: May 19, 2021, 04:12:11 pm »

Quote from: LesPalenik on Today at 11:58:57 am
Right! Who are the these people?

After a lot of  research, I found that a good portion of the antivaxxers are Republicans.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/04/republicans-anti-vaccine-herd-immunity
According to a new NPR/Marist study, 41% of self-identified Republicans, 34% of Independents, and 11% of Democrats say they do not plan on becoming vaccinated.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1518 on: May 19, 2021, 04:19:08 pm »

Quote from: LesPalenik on Today at 11:58:57 am
Right! Who are the these people?

After a lot of  research, I found that a good portion of the antivaxxers are Republicans.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/04/republicans-anti-vaccine-herd-immunity

Lets not gloss over the anti-vax rhetoric by the Democrats in the past few months.  In October, Biden, Harris, Cuomo and many other Dems insisted that we should not trust the vaccine because it came out during the Trump administration.  Then, to make matters worse, they insisted in bringing up the Tuskegee experiments, which I am sure an overwhelming majority of blacks were not even thinking about.  Now yes, these were campaign plays, but it did have an effect on voters overall and even legitimized anti-vaxxers on the left, such as Farrakhan Warns Black People Against COVID-19 Vaccine And ‘Their Medications.’  BTW, Farrakhan has yet to be suspended for his anti-vax remarks in Twitter/Facebook and has not had any of those post removed either. 

You then had Biden and many Dems insisting on keeping people masked after getting the vaccine even though there is no science to support this notion, and some are continuing to do so like Pelosi.  This does nothing to encourage people to get the vaccine, which has been shown in polling.  Roughly 15% of republicans when surveyed last month said they would have likely gotten the vaccine if they would get back to normal.  That is in addition to the 20% who said they would never get the vaccine. 

Last, the hold put on the J&J vaccine, after only 6 of millions had blood clots, substantially increased hesitancy.  If you look at the graph of daily doses, it drops like a rock the day after the FDA pulled the vaccine, showing a direct correlation between the two. 

This is not a republican issue or a Trump issue, but a total blunder in the messaging from the Biden administration.  And the idea we should all just share our medical procedures onliine is absurd. 

And finally, surveys have also shown, repeatably, that republicans know the true risks of C-19 much more then Dems, with Dems being very likely to overestimate the risk of death and hospitalization.  Point being, Republicans are more informed about C-19 and the risks and the fact that only certain age groups and people with certain health factors need to worry about C-19.  If you are not part of that age group, C-19 does not pose a serious enough risk to worry about and therefore the need to get vaccinated is not as warranted without some kind of incentive, such as your employer requiring you to be vaccinated. 

So the fact that so many Republicans dont see the need to get vaccinated as compared to Democrats is almost certainly due to Republicans being, overall, more informed and Democrats being more hysterical. 
« Last Edit: May 19, 2021, 04:22:32 pm by JoeKitchen »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #1519 on: May 19, 2021, 05:19:14 pm »

Below is a chart of most vaccinated countries, followed by a death curve in Israel, the most vaccinated coountry, and also the death curve worldwide.
Draw your own conclusions.

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