Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine

[Alan Klein]

As seems likely?

Please state your source...

What don't you understand about "as seems likely"?

[Robert Roaldi]

What don't you understand about "as seems likely"?

No need to be snarky, it was a fair question. What new evidence has emerged to suggest that it "seems likely"? I haven't read that many articles but the ones I have read are short on details why the thinking on the virus origin has changed. Has someone found out something that we didn't know about before?

But in general I agree with you about the utter stupidity of producing dangerous viruses in labs. The number of leaks of dangerous substances from top security labs is just frigging scary. As an example, the anthrax used in those mailings in the weeks/months after 9/11 came out of a US Army high security lab. If it can get out of a place like that....

That nearly 4 hour podcast on Sam Harris's podcast channel from 1 or 2 weeks ago that I gave the link to above discussed the insanity of creating new viruses at great length.

(Sometimes it seems like human history might end up being one long sad tail of arrogant stupidity on the part of empires who accumulated too much power and made their leaders drunk with it.)

[Alan Klein]

No need to be snarky, it was a fair question. What new evidence has emerged to suggest that it "seems likely"? I haven't read that many articles but the ones I have read are short on details why the thinking on the virus origin has changed. Has someone found out something that we didn't know about before?

But in general I agree with you about the utter stupidity of producing dangerous viruses in labs. The number of leaks of dangerous substances from top security labs is just frigging scary. As an example, the anthrax used in those mailings in the weeks/months after 9/11 came out of a US Army high security lab. If it can get out of a place like that....

That nearly 4 hour podcast on Sam Harris's podcast channel from 1 or 2 weeks ago that I gave the link to above discussed the insanity of creating new viruses at great length.

(Sometimes it seems like human history might end up being one long sad tail of arrogant stupidity on the part of empires who accumulated too much power and made their leaders drunk with it.)

Asking what proof is there that it occurred naturally is also a fair question.  The fact is the Chinese have hidden all evidence from WHO and other investigators after hiding that there was even a virus release for something like 5 weeks at least.  Frankly, I don't even believe WHO.  They seem to be in bed with China. They spoent 5 pages in their reports about the lab and hundreds about animal origination although I don't believe there are any animals discovered with the virus.

But there are researchers who had the virus.  The new evidence revealed a couple of days ago in the WSJ that has even former lab deniers concerned is that it was just reported that there were three researchers from the lab that got sick in Nov or December of 2019 just before the outbreak. 

My biggest flag was something I read a few weeks ago.  Virus specialists said that the variant that has been spreading in humans had too many "human" markers that only develop after a number of adaptations.  These adaptations can occur in two ways.  One is they have been spreading in humans for a period of time and adapted naturally.  Second is that the adaptation was developed and processed in a lab.  Problem is if it occurred naturally, then we would have seen the disease at an earlier stage with more animal markers which would have indicated animal originations.  Since we never saw earlier variants with those markers, that leaves adaptations that occurred by man in a lab.  It was the later variant that got out of a lab.

Add to that the coincidence that the lab was ten miles from the food market and in Wuhan where it was discovered and the indication that no animal has these virus pathogens, and it's a good likelihood that it developed in the lab.  Since I'm a betting man, I know where I would put my bet.

[degrub]

“ Virus specialists said that the variant that has been spreading in humans had too many "human" markers that only develop after a number of adaptations.
“

“ But there are researchers who had the virus
“



Alan,

Sources please.

The second statement is not what i remember reading in WSJ. Only that two researchers were sick in November 2019. No specification as to what they were ill from what i read. 
Do you have a different source ?

Thanks,

Frank

[TechTalk]

There is no value whatever in making any assumptions or jumping to any conclusions until there is enough evidence and data to reach a determination. Not that it makes a difference to anyone with an unrelated agenda they wish to promote.

[Alan Klein]

There is no value whatever in making any assumptions or jumping to any conclusions until there is enough evidence and data to reach a determination. Not that it makes a difference to anyone with an unrelated agenda they wish to promote.

A reasonable man can draw reasonable conclusions.  After all, the Chinese buried all the evidence. 

[Robert Roaldi]

A reasonable man can draw reasonable conclusions.  After all, the Chinese buried all the evidence.

I hate to say it, but that's not evidence.

[dreed]

Quote from: LesPalenik on Today at 11:58:57 am
Right! Who are the these people?

After a lot of  research, I found that a good portion of the antivaxxers are Republicans.

If only they would all have the decency to go and get infected by coronavirus at once then everyone else could take a big sigh of relief.

[dreed]

China is wining not because it is strong, but because the West, with the USA leading, has decided to give up, all for nothing but money. 

That problem started decades ago. China is the USA's bank and holds a huge percentage of the US national debt.

The root cause of this is greed.

Greed from C-levels at big companies that found cheap labour to make goods to sell in the USA. Greed from consumers that could buy more for less inside the USA.

It's not Biden's fault, it is America's fault. You're at fault every time you buy something that is "made in China" and you have no choice because some manufacturing company is also at fault for offshoring the production because it is cheaper in China.

China owns the USA just like your bank owns you via your mortgage.

[JoeKitchen]

That problem started decades ago. China is the USA's bank and holds a huge percentage of the US national debt.

The root cause of this is greed.

Greed from C-levels at big companies that found cheap labour to make goods to sell in the USA. Greed from consumers that could buy more for less inside the USA.

It's not Biden's fault, it is America's fault. You're at fault every time you buy something that is "made in China" and you have no choice because some manufacturing company is also at fault for offshoring the production because it is cheaper in China.

China owns the USA just like your bank owns you via your mortgage.

There is a fix, that would not only solve this issue but also help out our neighbors to the south and provide a real long term border fix too. 

Create better meaningful agreements that would allow for open free trade with Latin America along with providing incentives for utility companies to help power Latin America.  If Latin America had the same infrastructure as the USA, it would be a manufacturing powerhouse. 

Unfortunately, the great barrier to this are American Unions, who do not want their labor devalued by free trade in Latin America. 

[dreed]

There is a fix, that would not only solve this issue but also help out our neighbors to the south and provide a real long term border fix too. 

Create better meaningful agreements that would allow for open free trade with Latin America along with providing incentives for utility companies to help power Latin America.  If Latin America had the same infrastructure as the USA, it would be a manufacturing powerhouse. 

Unfortunately, the great barrier to this are American Unions, who do not want their labor devalued by free trade in Latin America.

Well the trade unions have already lost - to China. Pity they didn't see that coming.

[Robert Roaldi]

...  Unfortunately, the great barrier to this are American Unions, who do not want their labor devalued by free trade in Latin America.

That may be an overstatement. American unions are a much diminished constituency that no longer hold the power that some people think they do.

[JoeKitchen]

That may be an overstatement. American unions are a much diminished constituency that no longer hold the power that some people think they do.

In the private sector, this statement is certainly correct. 

In the current White House, not so much.  Just look at the fact that the National Teacher's Union got to influence what the CDC's school reopening guidelines, more so then actual scientists.  Unions still have power with the correct politicians. 

[Robert Roaldi]

In the private sector, this statement is certainly correct. 

In the current White House, not so much.  Just look at the fact that the National Teacher's Union got to influence what the CDC's school reopening guidelines, more so then actual scientists.  Unions still have power with the correct politicians.

Maybe. It could be that the line of causation is as direct as you say.

But to play devil's advocate, why shouldn't the unions have a say? They're a legitimate constituency, as legitimate as any other. Large corporations, business groups, the military, chambers of commerce, all affect public policy at various times. Why shouldn't trade unions? What makes them unworthy? Their votes count too. Their concerns are as real as anyone else's.

[JoeKitchen]

Maybe. It could be that the line of causation is as direct as you say.

But to play devil's advocate, why shouldn't the unions have a say? They're a legitimate constituency, as legitimate as any other. Large corporations, business groups, the military, chambers of commerce, all affect public policy at various times. Why shouldn't trade unions? What makes them unworthy? Their votes count too. Their concerns are as real as anyone else's.

Because it's a moot point.  As Dreed pointed out, they already lost to China.  What large scale unionized manufacturing is left in the country?  Let's put aside perishable goods, like food.  What is there left that would actually be effected by more open trade deals? 

Not to mention, if we want to break our reliance on China, we need other trade partners first.  Obama tried to do this with the Asian pact he formed, which Trump destroyed as soon as he got into office.  (I completely forget the name of it.)  It was a great idea, but why Asia?  Why not Latin America? 

I'd rather have my dollars go there, especially if it helps stabilize the region, not to the other side of the world to a culture that could not be more evil. 

[Alan Klein]

“ Virus specialists said that the variant that has been spreading in humans had too many "human" markers that only develop after a number of adaptations.
“

“ But there are researchers who had the virus
“



Alan,

Sources please.

The second statement is not what i remember reading in WSJ. Only that two researchers were sick in November 2019. No specification as to what they were ill from what i read. 
Do you have a different source ?

Thanks,

Frank

You're mistaken.  There were three not two.

The order comes after reports that three researchers at a lab in Wuhan, China, the city where the coronavirus pandemic is believed to have originated, fell sick in the fall of 2019.
https://news.yahoo.com/cdc-director-cautions-americans-ahead-080019792.html

[Alan Klein]

Even Democrats have grown suspicious of China's involvement.  Well, the election is over. No point blaming Trump anymore. Of course, everyone here who thought I was nuts for claiming this for months still aren't on board.  They'll defend China forever.  Just like the Paris climate change agreement.

Democrats back growing calls for Congress to probe lab leak theory
The ongoing discussions on Capitol Hill represent a remarkable bipartisan agreement that Congress should investigate the origins of a virus that has killed 3.5 million people worldwide.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/05/26/democrats-covid-lab-leak-theory-490951

Biden tasks intelligence community to report on Covid origins in 90 days
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/26/politics/biden-intelligence-community-pandemic-origins-report/index.html

[Alan Klein]

I hate to say it, but that's not evidence.

International relations never has absolute proof.  The world doesn't work that way. The mutation situation and lab location is pretty strong evidence it came from the Wuhan lab.    To stick our heads in the sand and make believe there's nothing there to see is foolish.  There are millions dead and sick.  Economies are in shambles.  Meanwhile, labs are still fooling around with these viruses so they could get out again.  What do you want to happen before the world acts to stop it from happening again? We passed treaties to stop poisonous gas munitions.  It's time we did something with viruses.  Don't you think so? 

[Robert Roaldi]

International relations never has absolute proof.  The world doesn't work that way. The mutation situation and lab location is pretty strong evidence it came from the Wuhan lab.    To stick our heads in the sand and make believe there's nothing there to see is foolish.  There are millions dead and sick.  Economies are in shambles.  Meanwhile, labs are still fooling around with these viruses so they could get out again.  What do you want to happen before the world acts to stop it from happening again? We passed treaties to stop poisonous gas munitions.  It's time we did something with viruses.  Don't you think so?

It could turn out to be true, it wouldn't surprise me much. Not the first time a powerful government did something dangerous and stupid out of deluded arrogance. It's sadly commonplace, even.

I urge you to listen to the first hour or so of that long Sam Harris podcast I mentioned earlier. In that first segment, the interviewed guest gives many examples of dangerous substances "escaping" from high security labs. It's damn scary.

As for international treaties, the US passed an anti-nuclear treaty with Iran, but you didn't like that one. 

[Alan Klein]

It could turn out to be true, it wouldn't surprise me much. Not the first time a powerful government did something dangerous and stupid out of deluded arrogance. It's sadly commonplace, even.

I urge you to listen to the first hour or so of that long Sam Harris podcast I mentioned earlier. In that first segment, the interviewed guest gives many examples of dangerous substances "escaping" from high security labs. It's damn scary.

As for international treaties, the US passed an anti-nuclear treaty with Iran, but you didn't like that one. 

We seem to be on the same page regarding horrid development of substances by different governments including my own.  Frankly, the whole thing is going to be white-washed by Biden's 90 day investigation.  The investigators will say in their final report that they don't have enough proof.  Then it will be buried and we'll move on to other issues. What would Biden do if they have proof China caused the leak from the lab?  What if it was deliberate?   

Just to clarify a couple of points about Iran.  There was no treaty.  It was Obama agreeing with Iran personally.  An American treaty constitutionally requires the US Senate to approve it. Otherwise there's no legal national authority or responsibility for enforcing it.  Obama never went to the Senate to get their approval because he knew it would not pass.  Our constitution doesn't want the president to act as a king when it comes to making treaties.  If the agreement is enforced again by Biden personally, it still will not be a treaty and the next president can cancel it again.  I don't think Iran will care because in the meanwhile they'll get the sanctions dropped.

Second, the anti-nuclear protection had too many holes, and still does.  It will actually be worse than before as Iran also has said that pictures of their sites will not be allowed to be taken by inspectors.  So what will we have other than taking off sanctions that will allow them to make more trouble for everyone in the ME? 

Unfortunately, everything Trump did is being reversed despite some positive that he accomplished.  These are all knee-jerk reactions to not accept anything he did.  We're shooting ourselves in the foot.