Update re SC P9570 (P9500 in Europe)

[Mick Sang]

Is it even possible to make large prints, in the realm of 40x60, with total black backgrounds, without creating wavy warped paper from over inking, while at the same time producing correct color gamut? This is a sure sign of inaccurate ink limit settings if you can’t. I do prints like this all the time and they will never flatten if it occurs.

Funny, yesterday, we made 3 similar prints for a client  44" x 30" on Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, heavily saturated colour throughout - night scene. No issues at all. But, the images had been properly processed i.e. no plugged areas of colour and deepest back just touched zero.

Mick

[Mick Sang]

I do prints like this all the time and they will never flatten if it occurs.

I agree, over-inking will cause this: ripples, warping and ugly gloss differential in the blackest shadows - not good. So, correct image editing is a must.

Mick

[MfAlab]

Thank you for your quote.
Have you seen any samples on glossy papers printed on P9500? But even if they are good I presume that it is impossible to wait 3 secs per pass to print. I was very exited about this new printer but now I start to believe that it is not what expected for photo papers. I hope I am wrong!

Yes, I have seen many prints on P9500. Decrease the ink amount in driver or RIP, setup a drying time, uni-direction print, these can help to avoid the problems on P10000/P20000/P7500/P9500 printers. It's all about ink quantity / coating absorb ability / drying time combination. P9500 is build by good ideas, no black ink swap, user DIY capping and head cleaning, inside lighting and so on, but it needs more details setting for a good print.

[[email protected]]

Yes, I have seen many prints on P9500. Decrease the ink amount in driver or RIP, setup a drying time, uni-direction print, these can help to avoid the problems on P10000/P20000/P7500/P9500 printers. It's all about ink quantity / coating absorb ability / drying time combination. P9500 is build by good ideas, no black ink swap, user DIY capping and head cleaning, inside lighting and so on, but it needs more details setting for a good print.

I have to say here that I dont own a P9500 and it was into my plans to buy one. Now this must be postponed or even cancelled after all this useful information from all of you.
For the time being I work with 2 P9000 and I like the results, but I have the impression (visually) of general over inking if I compare with my old 9900. Am I wrong?

[Gerd_Peters]

I've had the P9500 Spectro for a few days now and basically have (almost) no problems.

Firmware: 03.034.LL20KA
OS: Windows 10 (1909 Build 18363,1256)

The Ethernet connection unfortunately only has fixed settings for 10half, 10full, 100half, 100full and Auto Negotiation. So 1000full can only be reached via Auto Negotiation if the other side supports negotiation. There is no fixed setting for 1000full. Auto Negotiation is always problematic because it can cause so called Duplex-Type-Mismatch errors. This means that the sides "do not" automatically agree on a speed. E.g. the left side is set to 100full and the right side to 100half. This causes CRC/FCS errors. At first this makes the connection very slow, because missing TCP/IP packets are requested again by the receiver. From a certain degree there is a connection timeout. At this point the P9500 is very sensitive. To avoid problems - set the switch to 1000full or the PC/MAC if there is no switch. If you have no possibility to do so, set the P9500 to 100full. Better a slow connection than a faulty connection.

I have also tested WLAN connections via additional access points with different latencies. As long as no packets are lost during transmission (which is usually not a problem), the P9500 works fine with them.

The media installer also works almost without errors. In case of wrong input, e.g. point instead of comma or similar, it jumps to the largest possible value after pressing O.K.. Better look twice in the settings then you see the problem in time. Defective or lost media settings I had not once. Also, the media profiles can be ex- and imported as often as you like without the slightest error.

I have sized 5 different papers so far, including Hahnemühle Photo Rag Pearl 320g and SHIL Satin Baryta 295g. I think some of Hahnemühle's defaults in the media settings are nonsense. 

My settings (both in the Media Installer and in RIP).

Hahnemühle Photo Rag Pearl 320g
Roller spacing: 1.6 ~ 1.9
Dryingtime per pass: 0
Paper suction: +1
Paper thickness: 0.48

The SHIL Satin Baryta 295g is a little softer and tends to swell a little more.
Roller spacing: 1.9
Dryingtime per pass: 0
Paper suction: +1
Paper thickness: 0.35

However, I print unidirectionally.

Here is a + 5000 target on Hahnemühle Photo Rag Pearl 320g. No bleeding at the transitions, no smudging, ink coverage is perfectly fine at 100%.




What I noticed negatively or should be noted:



The white plastic tile is the measuring tile for the ILS30 EP (Xrite Spectro). When the plastic paper guide (red oval) is fully extended, the measurement slide can be hindered in its movement with stiff papers. The measurement tile is "shorter" than 44". When printing a target at full 44" width, the measuring head runs into an error on the far left. Limit targets to 1000mm in width - then it works beautifully.





Apart from that, I haven't noticed any serious problems in the few days since I got the P9500 (maybe the big end is yet to come ). In any case, I'm much further along than I was with the HPZ9+.

Greetings Gerd

[arobinson7547]

What other Color Modes do you have access to? Beyound RGB.

[Gerd_Peters]

RGB, CMYK and multicolor through my RIP.

The multicolor modes especially for this Epson model. Max. Color for multicolor is CMYKLcLmLkMkOGV



(I haven't changed the software for the ScreenShot to English, but I think you can see everything that way)



Greetings Gerd

[arobinson7547]

'That's' the Holy Grail. I asked because the first release was missing the Mk channel, in the color mode you have selected, in your image. It was fixed in Build 9129. The World is yours, my friend.

For that much money I'd not except a Spectro based on i1 Pro 2 and not i1 Pro 3. That's the one think I did not like.

[Panagiotis]

RGB, CMYK and multicolor through my RIP.

The multicolor modes especially for this Epson model. Max. Color for multicolor is CMYKLcLmLkMkOGV



(I haven't changed the software for the ScreenShot to English, but I think you can see everything that way)



Greetings Gerd

May I ask which RIP is that? Thanks!

[Panagiotis]

I believe this "-15% colour density" might be suggested in order to reduce black gloss differential which is painfully obvious when clients overly saturate the deepest shadows in their work to "make sure they get good blacks". Otherwise, we have seen no over-inking on the paper with the ink set to zero and we get very good D-max ( L*3 or better). Images which are properly edited in post show no such differential.

Mick

Isn't that a limitation? A printer that can properly print only images edited in an orthodox way? I mean what if the image is a graphic with only black background (0,0,0) and white letters (postmodern stuff). Or a street photograph overprocessed to have completely black areas (there is a flood of this kind nowadays).

[Gerd_Peters]

'That's' the Holy Grail. I asked because the first release was missing the Mk channel, in the color mode you have selected, in your image. It was fixed in Build 9129. The World is yours, my friend.

For that much money I'd not except a Spectro based on i1 Pro 2 and not i1 Pro 3. That's the one think I did not like.

I agree with you there. However, there are always complete offers that are very aggressively priced.
Such an offer I have perceived. i1Pro3 Plus I have here, the head is also flawlessly controlled by PS20 Build 9129.

One error I have seen in Build 9129 yet.
The Gamut Viewer probably shows the measurement file and not the profile.

Here is the TWZ display. The profile is error corrected and smoothed. As you can see from the curves, this can't be right.



If you open the profile in Colorlogic CoPra 7 (the software is also used internally in Colorgate) then it is displayed correctly.



Greetings Gerd

[Gerd_Peters]

May I ask which RIP is that? Thanks!

Colorgate PS20 here the link to the manufacturer CLICK

Greetings Gerd

[Panagiotis]

Colorgate PS20 here the link to the manufacturer CLICK

Greetings Gerd

Thank you!

[JRSmit]

Isn't that a limitation? A printer that can properly print only images edited in an orthodox way? I mean what if the image is a graphic with only black background (0,0,0) and white letters (postmodern stuff). Or a street photograph overprocessed to have completely black areas (there is a flood of this kind nowadays).

The -15% is just a kludge for the problem that the coating does not absorb the ink liquid fast enough. This due to the different formulation of the ink.
Gloss differentials (ugly) in the near black was in my case also present on Epson premium.
Regarding image editing , saturated blacks etc, as a cause, I disagree completely.
I did A/B comparisons with my SCP9000’s , and to be honest I prefer the 9000, in combination with remote panel for controlling custom papers on the printer. Also in its daily use it is more time efficient, and wastes much less paper. May be the recent firmware has made improvements. I do not know.

[Dnx]

Just joined today after having a read of this thread. Have had the SCP9500 since May, although with the Covid situation haven't had much a chance to use it. Although I've not had any major problems with EMI, there is horrid overinking on matte and photo paper. I was so disappointed as it felt like I had a huge door stop. What has helped is profiling papers using the i1Photo Pro 3 with i1Profiler I have and using the PGPP paper setting where PSPP is the suggested media type for the paper as it lays down less ink. This is less than ideal, but it's hopeful.

I was hoping that maybe linearising it would help with the overinking, but apparently that won't help - plus I'd need a RIP for the SpectroProofer I have from the SP9900, because obviously Epson didn't make their Linearization nor Colour Calibration utilities available for this printer.

If there's a dedicated thread on the overinking on the SCP9500 (P9570), please can a mod move this thread. Any advice is welcome on how to overcome this issue without having to throw more money at it - Epson tech support has not been very helpful.

[MfAlab]

Just joined today after having a read of this thread. Have had the SCP9500 since May, although with the Covid situation haven't had much a chance to use it. Although I've not had any major problems with EMI, there is horrid overinking on matte and photo paper. I was so disappointed as it felt like I had a huge door stop. What has helped is profiling papers using the i1Photo Pro 3 with i1Profiler I have and using the PGPP paper setting where PSPP is the suggested media type for the paper as it lays down less ink. This is less than ideal, but it's hopeful.

I was hoping that maybe linearising it would help with the overinking, but apparently that won't help - plus I'd need a RIP for the SpectroProofer I have from the SP9900, because obviously Epson didn't make their Linearization nor Colour Calibration utilities available for this printer.

If there's a dedicated thread on the overinking on the SCP9500 (P9570), please can a mod move this thread. Any advice is welcome on how to overcome this issue without having to throw more money at it - Epson tech support has not been very helpful.

Lowing the ink quantity or lowing the printing speed

ink quantity way:
1. choose a reference media using less ink
2. change color density setting in paper configuration
3. run linearization & ink limit by a RIP (throw more money)

printing speed way:
1. set a drying time per pass
2. use uni-direction printing

[deanwork]

What I’ve been trying to find out for the last month is:
Are these ink limiting problems occurring only at the higher speeds?

Are they nonexistent at unidirectional head movement?

Is this a glitch of the dual head design?

Is this printer too fast for it’s own good at bidirectional higher speeds, at least for fiber gloss media?

John

Lowing the ink quantity or lowing the printing speed

ink quantity way:
1. choose a reference media using less ink
2. change color density setting in paper configuration
3. run linearization & ink limit by a RIP (throw more money)

printing speed way:
1. set a drying time per pass
2. use uni-direction printing

[Gerd_Peters]

Just joined today after having a read of this thread. Have had the SCP9500 since May, although with the Covid situation haven't had much a chance to use it. Although I've not had any major problems with EMI, there is horrid overinking on matte and photo paper. I was so disappointed as it felt like I had a huge door stop. What has helped is profiling papers using the i1Photo Pro 3 with i1Profiler I have and using the PGPP paper setting where PSPP is the suggested media type for the paper as it lays down less ink. This is less than ideal, but it's hopeful.

I was hoping that maybe linearising it would help with the overinking, but apparently that won't help - plus I'd need a RIP for the SpectroProofer I have from the SP9900, because obviously Epson didn't make their Linearization nor Colour Calibration utilities available for this printer.

If there's a dedicated thread on the overinking on the SCP9500 (P9570), please can a mod move this thread. Any advice is welcome on how to overcome this issue without having to throw more money at it - Epson tech support has not been very helpful.

The EPSON EMI program stores under Windows 10 in the directory C:\ProgramData\EPSON\Epson Media Installer\library\SC-P9500 Series\xxxxxxxx\.... the paper settings in form of a XML file for example => P95 EPSON_Prem_Semigloss_Sheet.xml. This file is written when you register a paper via EMI in the printer or when you create your own paper.

I have copied a section for you for a glossy paper.
The InkDensity is 100% for all papers I have examined. I suspect that your high ink application is "not" caused by the media settings. It could be the default profiles or the driver itself.

-<ModeInfo>
<ModeName>2400x1200dpi - 24 Pass Uni SuperPhoto Color</ModeName>
<SurfaceType>0</SurfaceType>
<Pass>24</Pass>
<PrintBiDirection>0</PrintBiDirection>
<ColorNum>10</ColorNum>
<Color>200,201,202,204,210,211,214,215,208,209,205,229</Color>
<White>0</White>
<Metal>0</Metal>
<OnePassLayerNum>1</OnePassLayerNum>
<InkDensity>100</InkDensity>
-<Resolution>
<H>2400</H>
<V>1200</V>
</Resolution>
<PMI>10</PMI>
<DefaultMW>0</DefaultMW>
<Intent>4,6</Intent>
<ProfileType>30</ProfileType>
<ICCProfileName>EPSON_SC-P9500_7500_PremiumSemiglossPhotoPaper_CMYK_2400x1200.icc</ICCProfileName>
<ICCProfileNameRGB>EPSON_SC-P9500_7500_PremiumSemiglossPhotoPaper.icc</ICCProfileNameRGB>
<Recommend>0</Recommend>
<InputResolution>300,600,1200</InputResolution>
<DrvLevel>5</DrvLevel>
<DrvBitPerColor>1</DrvBitPerColor>
<DrvMW>1</DrvMW>
<DrvMWSP>1</DrvMWSP>
<DrvHTType>3</DrvHTType>
<DrvOutputType>38</DrvOutputType>
<DrvDefaultIntent>0</DrvDefaultIntent>
<DrvProofingMode>0</DrvProofingMode>
</ModeInfo>

I myself did not have your problem until now. But I also only print unidirectional because of the better precision and the easier head alignment. Furthermore, I have never used an Epson default profile, but always my own profiles. I can provide you with one of my profiles, provided I have a suitable one for your paper.

Regarding linearization:
As you can read above, I use a Colorgate RIP.  In the creation of a target is always - autarkic - a linearization included. The measurement results from the 5109 Patch Target always contain the measurement results for the linearization (red arrow). You can then derive various profiles of your choice (for example, smoothing, gray balance, error correction, OBAs, etc., etc.) and use them based on the linearization (blue arrow). If your printer drifts from color, you can update the linearization with a few patch fields. The measurement file with the 5109 patch fields incl. linearization will then be mathematically adjusted.





I followed the manufacturer's specifications for the Canson Baryta Prestige 340g with -15% Ink-Density. Red arrow Ink. Density reduced from 100% to 85%. But that would not have been necessary, the paper tolerates 100% without problems in the combination.





I have compared the dot gain from the original Epson Premium Luster 260 profile with my Epson Premium Luster profile.
You can see that the original Epson profile has a larger dot gain (more ink).





However, this does not play a major role in the comparison of the color space size.





I hope the information will help you.

Greetings Gerd

[Dnx]

From reading Jan's previous post, changing the colour density settings will affect the colour gamut, so not sure I want to go down that route - actually referred back to one of the support emails from Epson on this same problem and that's what they suggested.

I'll try the uni-directional pass with a longer drying time to see how I get on with that. Will also bring the i1 to profile more paper to see if that helps.

This shouldn't need to be expensive to get a decent print out of a printer like this and it's using up much paper and ink to just get this thing printing as it ought to.

Lowing the ink quantity or lowing the printing speed

ink quantity way:
1. choose a reference media using less ink
2. change color density setting in paper configuration
3. run linearization & ink limit by a RIP (throw more money)

printing speed way:
1. set a drying time per pass
2. use uni-direction printing

[Dnx]

All valid questions which require testing. I wish Epson would do the testing using their free paper and ink!

What I’ve been trying to find out for the last month is:
Are these ink limiting problems occurring only at the higher speeds?

Are they nonexistent at unidirectional head movement?

Is this a glitch of the dual head design?

Is this printer too fast for it’s own good at bidirectional higher speeds, at least for fiber gloss media?

John