Update re SC P9570 (P9500 in Europe)

[George Marinos]

As an aside, has anyone noticed that Hahnemühle recommends a 3 second per pass drying time for Photo Rag Baryta? I tried doing that and it was excruciating...the prints took ages. I have not noticed any difference in quality either (not saying there isn't one, just not that I have noticed yet...again, early days. But adding that much time to my prints is a non-starter.)
[/quote]Stuart, where did you find this please?

[StuartR]

They say it in the handling instructions when you download a profile from them.

[Rand47]

They say it in the handling instructions when you download a profile from them.

Wow... if I were a production shop, that would rule out this series printer!  LOL
I can say that I have printed on H Torchon, William Turner, and A. Durer paper w/o increasing the time per pass and it prints beautifully with no paper swelling, ink pooling, obvious excessive dot gain or other issues.  But those are MK papers.  I’ve yet to test the PK papers.

Rand

[Lessbones]

Absurd.  I run PR Baryta all day long on a p20000 (same head, slightly different ink-set) with no drying passes and everything is fine.  I've never tried using a hahnemuhle stock profile, but I can't imagine that they're able to lay down a ton more ink than I am when using a Premium Gloss or Premium Semi-Gloss as the startingpoint when profiling in RGB...  Nor would there be any reason to lay down more ink...

[George Marinos]

They say it in the handling instructions when you download a profile from them.

Thank you Stuart.
So this is specific for the SC P9500 and for all PK papers of Hahnemuehle. If it is not a mistake, that means that P9500 (UltraChrome Pro12 inkset, with K3 technology) is practically incompatible with Hahnemuehle PK papers and probably with others, as a member of this forum stated some weeks ago, in another threat, if i am not mistaken. This is a situation that I don't understand. Any thoughts?!

[StuartR]

As I said, I have not seen any difference between doing and not, but I have not done a true test.
I did confirm with the UK rep that this was indeed their recommendation.
They also list Gloss Baryta as only being archival for 30 years now, which I find pretty shocking, as when it was Harman Gloss Fb Al it was rated for at least 70-100 years on Wilhelm Imaging. I think it is market positioning, but it still really disturbed me as I used that paper to replicate fiber prints for the National Museum of Iceland, and I don't like the idea that they do not recommend it for archival use (assuming that it is just because it is part of their "photo" line, not their "fine art" line.

[deanwork]

It’s full of dye optical brighteners, always has been. As we’ve pointed out a million times on this forum, Wilhelm does not adequately describe the graying out of dozens of media loaded with these brighteners , like the horrible Epson Exhibition Fiber, all the rc media, etc. if the white base turns gray over time, all the high values in a print are effected. Papers that do hold up well and don’t have these brighteners are Canson Platine, Hahnemuehle Photorag Pearl, H. Photorag Baryta. I don’t know of any with that particular high glossy surface, but there may be some natural versions.

As I said, I have not seen any difference between doing and not, but I have not done a true test.
I did confirm with the UK rep that this was indeed their recommendation.
They also list Gloss Baryta as only being archival for 30 years now, which I find pretty shocking, as when it was Harman Gloss Fb Al it was rated for at least 70-100 years on Wilhelm Imaging. I think it is market positioning, but it still really disturbed me as I used that paper to replicate fiber prints for the National Museum of Iceland, and I don't like the idea that they do not recommend it for archival use (assuming that it is just because it is part of their "photo" line, not their "fine art" line.

[StuartR]

I had to match darkroom printed Multigrade Warmtone prints side by side in an exhibition, so I used Gloss Baryta Warmtone, which is the closest equivalent that I am aware of. I realize that even the warmtone has optical brighteners, but so do the darkroom papers, and I was under the impression that while the OBA's may fade, the overall print would be ok. In any case, I do my best to not use them, but of course it is impossible to avoid if a client wants a luster or glossy paper, or even most art papers with anything other than a noticeably cream colored base (Photo Rag 308, German Etching etc.). As for mentioning a million times on the forum...well, frankly I am not reading it that often. In any case, back on track.

Is anyone else less than enthused with the 9500? I am extremely happy I don't have to deal with the ink swapping anymore and I like the speed, but so far I am not too impressed. It seems like there is more bronzing unless you use the BEO feature, and the margin issues are quite annoying (warnings about smearing edges unless you print a quite substantial extra edge. Overall I feel like I am consuming more paper and the actual impression of the prints is worse (though maybe the density is higher). I am also getting banding on some jobs, even though the nozzle checks are clean. Meanwhile, I much preferred the paper loading and button based control on the older model versus this newer style. I operate much quicker than the machine seems to want to, and I feel like I could swap rolls much faster on the P9000, and not have to fight a bunch of annoying messages about opening and closing the lid, when it was ok to put in a roll, when to take out a roll etc. I preferred the single button to release and close the clamp. This is all subjective, so maybe it is just getting used to it. On the other hand, I like the light and the time remaining counter, even if it is not always accurate.

That said, if anyone is considering this printer and is happy with their P9000, I would advise them to think hard about it, or at least try one for a while and see what you really think.

[StuartR]

I should also note that at least about half the time it says that the paper is skewed or drifting on the roll, despite being apparently totally fine. Even my rep told me to just ignore the warning and go ahead and print. So far, any skew has been exceedingly minor (1mm or less).

[deanwork]

Yea, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

I was very sad when they discontinued the warmtone Harmon. I would print neutral or slightly cool prints on it and get a very nice split tone dimensionality with the warm highlights. Aardenburg pointed out that that one experienced a kind of bleaching of the highlights over time in daylight. But I used it anyway for some things and sprayed with a uv coating. It was ok for portfolios. Now as far as I know there is no gloss type paper that warm which is a shame.

John

I had to match darkroom printed Multigrade Warmtone prints side by side in an exhibition, so I used Gloss Baryta Warmtone, which is the closest equivalent that I am aware of. I realize that even the warmtone has optical brighteners, but so do the darkroom papers, and I was under the impression that while the OBA's may fade, the overall print would be ok. In any case, I do my best to not use them, but of course it is impossible to avoid if a client wants a luster or glossy paper, or even most art papers with anything other than a noticeably cream colored base (Photo Rag 308, German Etching etc.). As for mentioning a million times on the forum...well, frankly I am not reading it that often. In any case, back on track.

Is anyone else less than enthused with the 9500? I am extremely happy I don't have to deal with the ink swapping anymore and I like the speed, but so far I am not too impressed. It seems like there is more bronzing unless you use the BEO feature, and the margin issues are quite annoying (warnings about smearing edges unless you print a quite substantial extra edge. Overall I feel like I am consuming more paper and the actual impression of the prints is worse (though maybe the density is higher). I am also getting banding on some jobs, even though the nozzle checks are clean. Meanwhile, I much preferred the paper loading and button based control on the older model versus this newer style. I operate much quicker than the machine seems to want to, and I feel like I could swap rolls much faster on the P9000, and not have to fight a bunch of annoying messages about opening and closing the lid, when it was ok to put in a roll, when to take out a roll etc. I preferred the single button to release and close the clamp. This is all subjective, so maybe it is just getting used to it. On the other hand, I like the light and the time remaining counter, even if it is not always accurate.

That said, if anyone is considering this printer and is happy with their P9000, I would advise them to think hard about it, or at least try one for a while and see what you really think.

[JRSmit]

I should also note that at least about half the time it says that the paper is skewed or drifting on the roll, despite being apparently totally fine. Even my rep told me to just ignore the warning and go ahead and print. So far, any skew has been exceedingly minor (1mm or less).

Increase the platen suction. I had to go to +2 or +3 to get some stable behaviour. I do not have the 9500 anymore.

[MfAlab]

I was very sad when they discontinued the warmtone Harmon. I would print neutral or slightly cool prints on it and get a very nice split tone dimensionality with the warm highlights. Aardenburg pointed out that that one experienced a kind of bleaching of the highlights over time in daylight. But I used it anyway for some things and sprayed with a uv coating. It was ok for portfolios. Now as far as I know there is no gloss type paper that warm which is a shame.

John

Innova Exhibition Cotton Gloss (IFA 45) is a warm glossy paper, used called FibaPrint Warm Cotton Gloss. Plus it's OBA free and 100% cotton.

[MfAlab]

Thank you Stuart.
So this is specific for the SC P9500 and for all PK papers of Hahnemuehle. If it is not a mistake, that means that P9500 (UltraChrome Pro12 inkset, with K3 technology) is practically incompatible with Hahnemuehle PK papers and probably with others, as a member of this forum stated some weeks ago, in another threat, if i am not mistaken. This is a situation that I don't understand. Any thoughts?!

I think the 3 sec per pass suggestion is just because the super fast speed of this printer. Inks need more time to dry.

The interesting thing I found is reflection uneven in dark area since P10000/P20000. I think Epson's Black Enhanced Overcoat is the way they try to solve the problem. This is cause by Epson uses a little matte black ink on glossy papers to increase density, since they finally have individual MK/PK nozzles. This is not a new trick. Canon used the same way to increase density from iPF 6300/8300 or earlier models. But this time Epson goes to far, mixes too much MK in PK cause the problem in dark area. Sadly, there is no way user could set up the ratio of MK/PK in driver nor RIPs.

[George Marinos]

I think the 3 sec per pass suggestion is just because the super fast speed of this printer. Inks need more time to dry.

The interesting thing I found is reflection uneven in dark area since P10000/P20000. I think Epson's Black Enhanced Overcoat is the way they try to solve the problem. This is cause by Epson uses a little matte black ink on glossy papers to increase density, since they finally have individual MK/PK nozzles. This is not a new trick. Canon used the same way to increase density from iPF 6300/8300 or earlier models. But this time Epson goes to far, mixes too much MK in PK cause the problem in dark area. Sadly, there is no way user could set up the ratio of MK/PK in driver nor RIPs.

Thank you for your quote.
Have you seen any samples on glossy papers printed on P9500? But even if they are good I presume that it is impossible to wait 3 secs per pass to print. I was very exited about this new printer but now I start to believe that it is not what expected for photo papers. I hope I am wrong!

[arobinson7547]

I remember using an IPF5000, years ago. I had to use something like a 7sec delay; else the ink would run.

Maybe try less ink density, to avoid that three second delay. I would think that unidirectional printing could be a first choice. Having the head travel back gives the ink a little more time to dry. I've always been a fan of printing in one direction for the little quality boost.

Looking back, I was just doing what I had to do [to get it to work]

But I also remember thinking, 'There has GOT to be a better way!"

[macz5024]

In October 20 we wanted to replace an Epson Stylus Pro 9900, which did a great job for almost 10 years. After having purchased and extensively tested the P9500, we have purchased a P9000...
Why this? The 9500 is printing with too much ink on both matte and glossy paper. This results in overinked areas on baryta paper and in somewhat unsharp details on matte paper.
This overinking has led to recommendations of reducing ink density and longer drying time as you can see when checking Hahnemuehle's and Canson's website for their high-end baryta papers (already discussed in this thread). This is not a solution but only a workaround. The overinking may have gone after that, but the same is true for the gamut!

Interestingly, when comparing prints from the P9000 in 2880 mode and the 9500 in the 2400 mode, fine details look much better on the P9000. When checking this phenomenon with a looking glass, you will realize, that there is too much ink on the 9500 print - which can be reduced by reducing the ink density - and of course the gamut.

The only resolution for this problem will be a new firmware that corrects this problem reducing the ink amount - and hopefully keeping a large gamut, if Epson is interested in doing so. If not, the P9000 is and will be the better printer for fine art printing! Let 's hope that Epson will bring a Christmas present to fine art printers using the P9500...

Btw: the 9500 has great advantages over the previous models: no black switching and very precise paper feed!

[deanwork]

It’s so strange, although I don’t have one, from the extensive tests that others have done with the new HP Z9+, they are having the same exact problem, ...when the gamut is best the over inking is messing with ink density
on fiber gloss media and the gloss enhancer channel doesn’t cover correctly.

 In both cases it seems they never finished working out their media setting when creating the drivers. In HPs case they dumbed down the print utility adjustment sliders from previous Z printers where you could easily create and finesse custom media setting for anything.

This kind of thing seems so basic these days with the majority of people out there using these kinds of papers that you wonder WHAT they are thinking. I can’t think of anything more nightmarish than trying to fight this kind of nonsense when you are in the middle of an important quantity job and getting nowhere but wasting ink and expensive media. You are not the fist person to say the image quality is much better on the p9000 ( which should have offered the auto ink switching ). Oh well, it’ll probably be a year before these things are straightened out. Glad I didn’t buy one. I was seriously thinking about it.

John

quote author=macz5024 link=topic=136876.msg1201939#msg1201939 date=1608751741]
In October 20 we wanted to replace an Epson Stylus Pro 9900, which did a great job for almost 10 years. After having purchased and extensively tested the P9500, we have purchased a P9000...
Why this? The 9500 is printing with too much ink on both matte and glossy paper. This results in overinked areas on baryta paper and in somewhat unsharp details on matte paper.
This overinking has led to recommendations of reducing ink density and longer drying time as you can see when checking Hahnemuehle's and Canson's website for their high-end baryta papers (already discussed in this thread). This is not a solution but only a workaround. The overinking may have gone after that, but the same is true for the gamut!

Interestingly, when comparing prints from the P9000 in 2880 mode and the 9500 in the 2400 mode, fine details look much better on the P9000. When checking this phenomenon with a looking glass, you will realize, that there is too much ink on the 9500 print - which can be reduced by reducing the ink density - and of course the gamut.

The only resolution for this problem will be a new firmware that corrects this problem reducing the ink amount - and hopefully keeping a large gamut, if Epson is interested in doing so. If not, the P9000 is and will be the better printer for fine art printing! Let 's hope that Epson will bring a Christmas present to fine art printers using the P9500...

Btw: the 9500 has great advantages over the previous models: no black switching and very precise paper feed!
[/quote]

[Mick Sang]

As an aside, has anyone noticed that Hahnemühle recommends a 3 second per pass drying time for Photo Rag Baryta?

IMHO, this goes to show that whatever is written by these manufacturers can not be taken as gospel. We have to testify to determine the best approach for our own situation. That instruction from Hahnemuhle is either a typo or they tested a different batch of PR Baryta than any we have seen to date.

Is anyone else less than enthused with the 9500? I am extremely happy I don't have to deal with the ink swapping anymore and I like the speed, but so far I am not too impressed. It seems like there is more bronzing unless you use the BEO feature, and the margin issues are quite annoying (warnings about smearing edges unless you print a quite substantial extra edge.

To be clear, we are very pleased with the printer. It is Epson's software which has been the primary source of our trouble. On that note, we have been successful in adding 2 more media to EMI for a total of 6 now and it's still functioning well. We have not deleted any Epson Media to make more room which we had done previously. This may have caused or compounded our issue. I don't know.

The 9570 (EU 9500) is a different animal - more sensitive that any other printer we have currently or have had. So there is a learning curve. But, we have been very pleased with the quality that it yields. We often use Half Speed. But, it is true that is is a finicky beast.

I operate much quicker than the machine seems to want to, and I feel like I could swap rolls much faster on the P9000, and not have to fight a bunch of annoying messages about opening and closing the lid, when it was ok to put in a roll, when to take out a roll etc. I preferred the single button to release and close the clamp. This is all subjective, so maybe it is just getting used to it. On the other hand, I like the light and the time remaining counter, even if it is not always accurate.

The older machines were faster to load IMO also. But, they were nowhere nearly as good for running sheets. In the end, as I said, there is a learning curve and a trade off between new benefits and some new aggravations. There are definitely some warnings that simply must be ignored. For example, it saw one of our rolls as 43.91" when we had entered 44" in the driver. So, it stops and waits for approval every time a print is made. Of course, changing the paper size to the 43.91" in the driver solved that picky nonesense.

Mick

[Mick Sang]

The Canson recommended media type is Epson’s generic “baryta” paper type (with a -15% color density)

I believe this "-15% colour density" might be suggested in order to reduce black gloss differential which is painfully obvious when clients overly saturate the deepest shadows in their work to "make sure they get good blacks". Otherwise, we have seen no over-inking on the paper with the ink set to zero and we get very good D-max ( L*3 or better). Images which are properly edited in post show no such differential.

Mick

[deanwork]

Is it even possible to make large prints, in the realm of 40x60, with total black backgrounds, without creating wavy warped paper from over inking, while at the same time producing correct color gamut? This is a sure sign of inaccurate ink limit settings if you can’t. I do prints like this all the time and they will never flatten if it occurs.

I believe this "-15% colour density" might be suggested in order to reduce black gloss differential which is painfully obvious when clients overly saturate the deepest shadows in their work to "make sure they get good blacks". Otherwise, we have seen no over-inking on the paper with the ink set to zero and we get very good D-max ( L*3 or better). Images which are properly edited in post show no such differential.

Mick