Update re SC P9570 (P9500 in Europe)

[Dnx]

Back in National Lockdown again.

Rand you are a very fortunate individual indeed to get compensation from Epson - being so lucky you ought to pick some numbers for the lotto it would be pretty decent if Epson would compensate us all for ink/paper.

I've got a Teamview coming up with PrintFactory who are going to install their RIP on my Mac so I can test it. Although I really think this printer should be able to print well using their drivers, ICC profiles and any I create using i1Photo Pro 3. This printer is a money magnet.

Seems that Epson don't really support Mac as much as they do PC.

@Mick, I tried slowing it down by adding in drying time and unidirectional printing, but didn't really make much difference. The main difference for me comes in when selecting glossy paper vs semi glossy paper.

@arobinson7547, you've outlined what I thought re linearization, but I don't know my stuff to anywhere near the extent you obviously do. Will this ink limiting process resolve the issues of gloss differential and laying down too much ink?

[Gerd_Peters]

Hello Denise,

the word linearization must always be considered in context. 

In the HTM mode (halftone mode) of a manufacturer, the primary colors (CMYK) are normally linearized. That means you print e.g. in 5% steps CMYK from 0% to 100%. Then you measure the density so that the characteristic curve can be adjusted accordingly in the printing process. This ensures that if you print 20% of any color, the result is really (near) 20%. Everything else is controlled by the manufacturer's own HTM module.

In the NON HTM mode you have nothing, not even the own Epson Precision Dot printing grid. That means you have to define a printing grid in the RIP - which is normally no problem with modern RIP's and you have to determine the ink limit yourself. In NON HTM mode linearization usually means two steps.

Step 1 - You print each real color channel (i.e. the physically existing color channel) unregulated in very small steps from 0% to 100%. This looks like a disaster at first, but it is correct. Then you determine the highest chroma value of a channel and set the ink limit there. The highest chroma value is not equal to the highest density. This is at least my approach, I know there are other possibilities.

Step 2 - (after the chroma ink limit has been determined) it is then the same as described above in HTM mode. Print the primary colors (CMYK), measure the density and linearize the characteristic curve. 

The next steps are then as always - create target, print target, measure and create profile.....

I have not been able to detect any gloss problem on my end so far. But I doubt that a linearization process solves this problem completely - rather alleviates it.


If someone is interested I can publish the numbers of the measurement/linearization for Chroma/Ink-Limit of the P9500 here.

Greetings Gerd

[MichaelKoerner]

Hi Gerd, I would be interested in your chroma values very much. In case I missed it: What version of Colorgate PS20 RIP are you using?

Best regards from Austria,
Michael

[Dnx]

Hi Gerd, thank you for this information - learning loads here.

Hello Denise,

the word linearization must always be considered in context.

In the HTM mode (halftone mode) of a manufacturer, the primary colors (CMYK) are normally linearized. That means you print e.g. in 5% steps CMYK from 0% to 100%. Then you measure the density so that the characteristic curve can be adjusted accordingly in the printing process. This ensures that if you print 20% of any color, the result is really (near) 20%. Everything else is controlled by the manufacturer's own HTM module.

In the NON HTM mode you have nothing, not even the own Epson Precision Dot printing grid. That means you have to define a printing grid in the RIP - which is normally no problem with modern RIP's and you have to determine the ink limit yourself. In NON HTM mode linearization usually means two steps.

Step 1 - You print each real color channel (i.e. the physically existing color channel) unregulated in very small steps from 0% to 100%. This looks like a disaster at first, but it is correct. Then you determine the highest chroma value of a channel and set the ink limit there. The highest chroma value is not equal to the highest density. This is at least my approach, I know there are other possibilities.

Step 2 - (after the chroma ink limit has been determined) it is then the same as described above in HTM mode. Print the primary colors (CMYK), measure the density and linearize the characteristic curve.

The next steps are then as always - create target, print target, measure and create profile.....

I have not been able to detect any gloss problem on my end so far. But I doubt that a linearization process solves this problem completely - rather alleviates it.


If someone is interested I can publish the numbers of the measurement/linearization for Chroma/Ink-Limit of the P9500 here.

Greetings Gerd

[Gerd_Peters]

Hi Gerd, I would be interested in your chroma values very much. In case I missed it: What version of Colorgate PS20 RIP are you using?

Best regards from Austria,
Michael

Hello Michael,

attached is an Excel table with the LCH and LAB values. The highest chroma of each color is marked in red, crossed out values are measurement errors. For all black channels not the highest chroma is valid but the lowest brightness (L value). I used ColorThink Pro to convert the data into Excel. CTP calculates some chroma values minimally different than the RIP software (so there are small deviations). 

Furthermore the CMYKLcLmLkMkOGV reference values and the measurement data of the first linearization are available as CGATS file. The reference values are not a normal target which can be visualized easily. They are channel instructions directly to the printer, but you can see the values in the file to know what is done there.

In CTP the pure measurement looks like this:


You can see all the black channels, you can see the two cyan and magenta channels, as well as yellow, orange, green and violet.
The hard curves at the end of the respective color channels (curvature) show you that the channels were not limited. That the gray balance at the top of L100 tilts towards blue is correct. The Epson Premium Luster 260g contains OBA's.

In the CGate RIP it looks like this and is much easier to handle. You just drag the red dot with the coordinates cross to the corresponding place with the highest chroma or the lowest L values for the black channels to the corresponding place or you can also let the RIP determine the optimal value.

E.g. for the yellow channel - highest chroma value


or for the black channel - lowest L value.


Regarding Colorgate PS20 version:
I have the PS20 Campain Printig. But you don't need it to work in RGB/CMYK or additionally MultiColor. You can buy each module separately and put them together individually. In principle you can start with the Select or Pro version and buy only the Profiler module and Multicolor module. 

I hope the information helps you.

Greetings Gerd

[tharrington]

Hi John- I just read your correspondence with Rand... knock on wood I have had zero issues with the 9570 and I am on a Mac using many of the same papers that Rand mentioned.  Rand's forbearance with this printer in the early days and his eventual confidence in it convinced me to get it.  This printer replaced my Canon Pro-4000.  I do miss the accounting tool; but otherwise, I feel quite at home with it.  I typically run a nozzle check at the beginning of each day- rarely do I need to initiate a cleaning.  Admittedly, I print for other photographers so the machine gets a fair bit of use.  When I opened in 2004 I was using Epson and then decided to switch because of the clogging.  I used the HP Z3100 for a couple of years, then moved to the Canon 8300 and eventually the Pro-4000. I was quite happy until last year when the Canon 4000 died.  I would buy the Epson 9570 again, though I hope I don't have to!
   

Rand, That is good news that you able to work with Platine, that’s a good sign. But you are correct more than half of the printmaking community is on Mac platform, and that’s no secret to Epson, if the platform is the problem.

Maybe it will end up being a situation where unidirectional is mandatory with fiber gloss media. I could live with that since I always use uni with Epson machines anyway ( not Canon ). If these heads don’t clog like the previous series and half your ink doesn’t end up in the waste tank, I assume these other issues can be fixed.

I agree that COVID has put a monkey wrench in all kinds of tech support and not just with Epson. It’s a horrible time for everybody.
I doubt it will improve much in the next few months. It’s a bad time to release anything.

But the fact remains this series should never have been released in the first place until it was ready for prime time. It’s not like they didn’t have enough printers out there. The same can be said with the HP Z9+. They have both caused a lot of grief and expense. I’m glad for the time being I have decided to restore my older Canon and wait. The only printer reviews I’ve trusted have been from Scott Martin at Onsight Imaging who consults on all these brands. He buys his own printers and inks and isn’t in bed with any of them. Not so the “ Epson Print Academy” or what ever they call themselves these days. Scott hasn’t said anything about the 9570 / 7570 but had good things to say about the P9000 and the Canon 4000.



[moderator's edit: replaced a left bracket]