Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[TechTalk]

If this case is so important, then why aren't they impeaching?

Your stubborn and willful ignorance is truly at a level apart from anything I've ever seen before.

[TechTalk]

So a gutless Congress, despite all their cries of Trump's refusal to act as he should have, will just pass the buck as the cowards they are.

The gutless cowards are those so fearful of losing their self-identity — were they to acknowledge the truth of what Trump did to cause an insurrection and his shameful conduct in violation of his highest duty — they will betray their country by trying to cover it up with dishonesty, deception, and deflection.

Buy a mirror and take an honest look.

[TechTalk]

Peter, to quote from the article, something I've been [ignoring] all along here...

What did Trump do and not do on Jan. 6?

He sat in his private dining room off the Oval Office for hours as the Capitol was overrun by armed rioters. He watched Fox News on television while ignoring the urgent discussions among his staff that he needed to say something, do something, to call off the attack.

He did not call then-Vice President Mike Pence, who was in hiding at the Capitol and whose Secret Service detail had made calls to loved ones, fearful they might not survive the attacks. He did not call the Pentagon to order military support to put down the insurrection. He did not call the Department of Homeland Security. He did not seek any law enforcement support.

What Trump did do as the Capitol was being sacked and as some rioters were chanting, “Hang Mike Pence,” was to send out a tweet at 2:24 p.m. condemning his own vice president as a coward for not blocking the certification process, saying Pence didn’t have the courage to try to overturn the election. It is worth pausing on that. At a time when he could have sought to deescalate the violence, he did the opposite, adding fuel to the fire raging at the Capitol that had been sparked by his own lies.

There was no evidence that Trump called anyone to stop the violence that afternoon, but he did call Rudolph Giuliani, his personal lawyer who was in the forefront of spreading wild conspiracy theories about the election. He called Giuliani later, too, and Giuliani was calling senators that evening, hoping to persuade someone to slow down the process of certification in a last desperate effort to overturn the election.

Trump sat little more than a minute’s walk from where he watched television to the White House briefing room, where television cameras are always at the ready to broadcast a presidential address to the nation. He could have made a statement that might have halted the violence. He did not do it, even as call after calls and tweets poured into the White House from allies pleading for him to do something. Instead he resisted saying anything on camera for more than three hours.

[Peter McLennan]

Your stubborn and willful ignorance is truly at a level apart from anything I've ever seen before.

As I've mentioned before, Alan is a pale, lame instance of what I see on my Sprinter Van forum.

The truly scary thing is that there are tens of millions of Alans out there.  Willfully ignorant despicables. (not "deplorables")

The only mitigating factor is that (as the NYT said the other day) "The far right is demographically terminal. And they know it".

Alan is a perfect example of that demographic.

[Robert Roaldi]

I suspect many of you have seen this already but jic you haven't, it's a clip of Congressman Matt Gaetz calling pro-choice female supporters fat and ugly, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyPfB89ZAOM.

This kind of outburst would probably disqualify someone from running for junior high class president but the bar appears to be lower in Congress. It's a bit of a surprise that the clip doesn't violate the youtube terms of service.

Just when you think that things couldn't go any lower after MJT and that mad woman Laura Boebert, along comes Matt, to some applause I might add. I don't get this, am I supposed to believe that Matt is pro-life and has the support of the religious right? Is this some kind of joke?

[PeterAit]

Peter, to quote from the article, something I've been saying all along here.  We're only hearing one side of the story.  It's like being at a trial where only the prosecutor gets to call witnesses, make accusations, and talk to the jury.  And the anti-Trump Washington Post, is a cheerleader in this one-side kangaroo court.  If this case is so important, then why aren't they impeaching?  Instead, they're turning it over to a hapless Attorney General, a Democrat, who has to decide whether he has the authority and statutes to back him in court and in front of the Supreme Court who will eventually decide whether he exceeded his authority and the constitution.  So a gutless Congress, despite all their cries of Trump's refusal to act as he should have, will just pass the buck as the cowards they are.

Quote: "The committee has produced a compelling narrative, with much new information and with Trump squarely in the middle. But its work has not been tested in legal terms, its evidence not subjected to cross-examination, its case not hindered by procedural challenges that a criminal case would bring."

Alan, you ignore all the important points of the article and pull one quote that seems to support you. And you have yet to respond to my pointing out that there are so many Trump supporters who have been asked to testify but have refused. No wonder there's no pro-Trump material being presented!

As for impeachment, be serious. Can an ex-president be impeached? Even if he can, the only punishment would be removal from office, a moot point with an ex-president.

[Alan Klein]

Alan, you ignore all the important points of the article and pull one quote that seems to support you. And you have yet to respond to my pointing out that there are so many Trump supporters who have been asked to testify but have refused. No wonder there's no pro-Trump material being presented!

As for impeachment, be serious. Can an ex-president be impeached? Even if he can, the only punishment would be removal from office, a moot point with an ex-president.

Why would anyone want to appear in a kangaroo court where there's no one there defending you?  The only inquisitors are anti-Trump senators, both Democrat and Republican, asking the questions and pointing fingers at you.  Who would voluntarily appear at such an inquisition?  Of course, as Bannon has shown, you have to follow the law regarding subpoenas.  So let Congress subpoena those people they want talk too.  What's the problem?   Congress once subpoenaed a lot of Mafiosa who spent their time there pleading the Fifth Amendment to remain silent. 

If Congress feels his crimes have reached such a high level of High Crimes and Misdemeanors such as inciting the overthrow of the government, then they have a responsibility to impeach and try him (and prevent him from public office again). There's much debate about whether a former official can be impeached.  But there is no current settled law regarding it. Maybe Trump could make new law.

However, not doing your duties doesn't seem to rise to the level of High Crimes and Misdemeanors.  My wife complains a lot about those things to me. We're still married.  So impeachment wouldn't be appropriate.  So you're left with breaking federal or state law.  Cheating on his taxes and other private violations are certainly appropriate to charge him with.  But not fulfilling your complete obligation as president is not.  There are no statutes I'm aware of where former presidents can be charged with that in federal or state courts.  That's why we have elections.  And he lost already.

[Robert Roaldi]

Alan, you ignore all the important points of the article and pull one quote that seems to support you. And you have yet to respond to my pointing out that there are so many Trump supporters who have been asked to testify but have refused. No wonder there's no pro-Trump material being presented!

As for impeachment, be serious. Can an ex-president be impeached? Even if he can, the only punishment would be removal from office, a moot point with an ex-president.

Alan often tells us that he likes to question things, experts, the media, etc. As a general statement, it's pretty anodyne and has the allure of independence of thought. But not all "questioning" is equally valid. If an English poet questions the validity of Einstein's relativity because it sounds outlandish to him, I feel free to ignore his comments. The poet may take offence, but that's irrelevant except to his own ego.

Alan feels free to ignore all media that he believes is tainted with the sin of being anti-Trump and he considers that independence, but it's self-delusion. It's not independence when you decide beforehand what you're going to believe.

[Robert Roaldi]

Why would anyone want to appear in a kangaroo court where there's no one there defending you?  ...

Why does it matter what they want or don't want? They're subpoenaed, they have to testify, end of story.

Whether or not the process results in criminal charges for Trump or not is utterly irrelevant to the process. Alan is defining his own end-point, but the committee doesn't report to Alan.

[Manoli]

Welcome, Robert!  We're a small but loyal group here on Alan's ignore list.

Well boys, I hate to break the bad news, but judging by the last 100 or so posts, it seems that Alan Klein’s ‘ignore list’ ain’t working so well …

[Peter McLennan]

Next up:
Rep. Liz Cheney said Sunday the committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol is prepared to consider subpoenaing Virginia Thomas, wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, if she does not appear voluntarily.

“The committee is engaged with her counsel,” Cheney (R-Wyo.) said in an interview on CNN’s “State of the Union,” when asked if the panel planned to speak with her about efforts to overturn the 2020 election. “We hope she’ll agree to come in voluntarily. The committee is fully prepared to contemplate a subpoena if she does not.”

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/07/24/cheney-jan-6-subpoena-ginni-thomas-00047593

[Peter McLennan]

Well boys, I hate to break the bad news, but judging by the last 100 or so posts, it seems that Alan Klein’s ‘ignore list’ ain’t working so well …

Really?  I'm gonna have to put a stop-payment on my dues cheque.

[TechTalk]

Trump should be indicted on federal charges, but given the explosive political atmosphere and the propensity for violence among a sizable number of his cult, the Department of Justice may choose to avoid the possibility of triggering widespread civil unrest and violence. Everything involving or surrounding Trump is so volatile and unpredictable that it's anyone's guess what may happen.

Trump tries to operate like a mob boss and maintain some plausible deniability regarding crimes he commits or has others commit on his behalf. Being a con man, he primarily engages in activities which involve fraud. So, it may continue to be others that take the fall for him as we've seen in the past.

His current federal and state criminal exposure revolves largely around his participation in election fraud conspiracies. This would include the current grand jury investigation in Georgia for Trump's attempts at coercion, tampering, and interference in the election there. The election fraud attempts of Rudy Giuliani and John Eastman, both of whom actively involved Trump in their schemes, may very well find themselves criminal defendants for their actions.

A federal judge has already examined some of the evidence in the January 6th election fraud schemes of John Eastman and Trump in ruling on evidence sought by the Committee. His findings and judgements under the crime-fraud exception to attorney-client privilege for Trump and Eastman were revealing as to the serious crimes "likely" commited by both men.

"Obstruction of an Official Proceeding... Based on the evidence, the Court finds it more likely than not that President Trump corruptly attempted to obstruct the Joint Session of Congress on January 6, 2021." [18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(2)]

"Conspiracy to Defraud the United States... Based on the evidence, the Court finds that it is more likely than not that President  Trump and Dr. Eastman dishonestly conspired to obstruct the Joint Session of Congress on January 6, 2021." [18 U.S.C. § 371]

"Dr. Eastman and President Trump launched a campaign to overturn a democratic election, an action unprecedented in American history. Their campaign was not confined to the ivory tower—it was a coup in search of a legal theory. The plan spurred violent attacks on the seat of our nation’s government, led to the deaths of several law enforcement officers, and deepened public distrust in our political process."

"More than a year after the attack on our Capitol, the public is still searching for accountability. This case cannot provide it. The Court is tasked only with deciding a dispute over a handful of emails. This is not a criminal prosecution; this is not even a civil liability suit. At most, this case is a warning about the dangers of “legal theories” gone wrong, the powerful abusing public platforms, and desperation to win at all costs. If Dr. Eastman and President Trump’s plan had worked, it would have permanently ended the peaceful transition of power, undermining American democracy and the Constitution. If the country does not commit to investigating and pursuing accountability for those responsible, the Court fears January 6 will repeat itself." — David O. Carter, United States District Judge - March 28, 2022

[Chris Kern]

The truly scary thing is that there are tens of millions of Alans out there.

There are, and not just here in the United States.  Conspiracy-minded populist movements are ascendant in many democratic countries—in North America, Latin America, and Europe (consider what just happened to the Draghi government in Italy)—and, needless to say, they already control authoritarian regimes in places like Russia and Turkey.

"Attention must be paid," the Linda Loman character says in Arthur Miller's Death of a Salesman.  Many hard-working people got left behind in the "Great Recession" and they are taking out their resentments politically on "the elites" with the encouragement of opportunistic right-wing politicians.

I don’t say he’s a great man. Willy Loman never made a lot of money. His name was never in the paper. He’s not the finest character that ever lived. But he’s a human being, and a terrible thing is happening to him. So attention must be paid. He’s not to be allowed to fall into his grave like an old dog. Attention, attention must be finally paid to such a person.

The populists may not be entirely rational in their failure to support policies that would actually benefit them—clearly sometimes their votes and their political affiliations actually undermine their interests—but there's no denying the genuineness of their rage.  And there are so many of them that if their grievances are not addressed, the next few years could be very unpleasant indeed.

Attention must be paid.

[Manoli]

Attention must be paid.

Very interesting and relevant topic, Chris.
Have you given any thought to starting a new thread?

Far removed from the Trump/Jan-6 hearings, over in England, there’s another no less harrowing process ongoing in the search for a new ‘leader’. Somewhat farcical that the chosen one is finally decided on by less than 200,000 (mostly white and over 65, so-called grass root paying members of the Conservative party) who would rather protect their own blinkered vision and preserve the ‘manner and legacy’ of Trump-Lite.

Another self-explanatory short from ‘Led by Donkeys’ who do an excellent job in puncturing the lies and posturing which seem to have become a mainstay of the modern political ruling class.

https://twitter.com/bydonkeys/status/1551138151934066688?s=21&t=nLzXxipRuT9h31OlNfeYWA

[Alan Klein]

There are, and not just here in the United States.  Conspiracy-minded populist movements are ascendant in many democratic countries—in North America, Latin America, and Europe (consider what just happened to the Draghi government in Italy)—and, needless to say, they already control authoritarian regimes in places like Russia and Turkey.

"Attention must be paid," the Linda Loman character says in Arthur Miller's Death of a Salesman.  Many hard-working people got left behind in the "Great Recession" and they are taking out their resentments politically on "the elites" with the encouragement of opportunistic right-wing politicians.

The populists may not be entirely rational in their failure to support policies that would actually benefit them—clearly sometimes their votes and their political affiliations actually undermine their interests—but there's no denying the genuineness of their rage.  And there are so many of them that if their grievances are not addressed, the next few years could be very unpleasant indeed.

Attention must be paid.

Speaking of conspiracy theories, I seem to recall the one on the left and Democrats regarding Trump colluding with the Russians.

Regarding your second point,  there is growing in America a larger split between the haves and the have-nots.  This includes people on all parts of the political spectrum.  No one is immune to poverty or falling behind economically.  All the printing and low-interest rates since 2008 have made the asset-holding rich richer and the rest of the people who don't have assets a lot poorer. Inflation due to deficit spending and printing has diminished the purchasing power of people who mainly depend on salaries.  They do not own real estate, artwork, stocks, etc.

Also, many of the theories on the left today about what kids should be taught in school, MMT (Modern Monetary Theory of the left), and a few other social issues in conflict with traditional American beliefs, are also pushing many long-standing Democrats into the Republican fold.  It started with Trump in 2016.   You're already seeing Blacks, Latinos, Asians, and other groups traditionally Democratic moving over. 

[James Clark]

Speaking of conspiracy theories, I seem to recall the one on the left and Democrats regarding Trump colluding with the Russians.

Not. A. Hoax.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/senate-panel-finds-russia-interfered-in-the-2016-us-election

Among the more striking sections of the report is the committee’s description of the professional relationship between former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort and Konstantin Kilimnik, whom the committee describes as a Russian intelligence officer.

“Taken as a whole, Manafort’s high-level access and willingness to share information with individuals closely affiliated with the Russian intelligence services, particularly Kilimnik, represented a grave counterintelligence threat,” the report says.

The report notes how Manafort shared internal Trump campaign polling data with Kilimnik and says there is “some evidence” Kilimnik may have been connected to Russia’s effort to hack and leak Democratic emails, though that information is redacted. The report also says “two pieces of information” raise the possibility of Manafort’s potential connection to those operations, but what follows is again blacked out.

[Alan Klein]

Very interesting and relevant topic, Chris.
Have you given any thought to starting a new thread?

Far removed from the Trump/Jan-6 hearings, over in England, there’s another no less harrowing process ongoing in the search for a new ‘leader’. Somewhat farcical that the chosen one is finally decided on by less than 200,000 (mostly white and over 65, so-called grass root paying members of the Conservative party) who would rather protect their own blinkered vision and preserve the ‘manner and legacy’ of Trump-Lite.

Another self-explanatory short from ‘Led by Donkeys’ who do an excellent job in puncturing the lies and posturing which seem to have become a mainstay of the modern political ruling class.

https://twitter.com/bydonkeys/status/1551138151934066688?s=21&t=nLzXxipRuT9h31OlNfeYWA

The British method is sure to get someone better than we accomplished in 2020 when we nominated Biden as the Standard bearer for the Democratic party and of America when we elected him president, an infirm old man who has trouble reading a teleprompter.   A few well-connected media and politicians pushed him through.  Democrats had little choice. Making it worse, we have a VP, second-in-line, who would replace him should the need arise, who probably would screw things up worse than he's doing.  What a mess.

[PeterAit]

Why would anyone want to appear in a kangaroo court where there's no one there defending you?  The only inquisitors are anti-Trump senators, both Democrat and Republican, asking the questions and pointing fingers at you.  Who would voluntarily appear at such an inquisition? 

Why do you refuse to understand these very simple things?

1) It is not a court, it is a hearing.
2) No one needs defending because no one is on trial.
3) Trump's allies would want to appear in order to get the truth out there. If, indeed, they want the truth out there.

And just as an aside, THEY ARE NOT SENATORS.

[PeterAit]

Next up:
Rep. Liz Cheney said Sunday the committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol is prepared to consider subpoenaing Virginia Thomas, wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, if she does not appear voluntarily.

If she testifies, they better fumigate the chamber afterwords.