Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[TechTalk]

You're on my Ignore list.

Cambridge family at Trooping the Colour 2019 - 12
Londisland, CC BY 3.0 <https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0>, via Wikimedia Commons

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[Peter McLennan]

The concern I have is that there may be just enough blind ideologues, who are willing to place their ideology above any moral or civic commitment to democracy and country, to rot the whole 230+ year experiment in self-government from the inside to the point of collapse. They've already come quite close, to the shock and dismay of many and to the delight of the antigovernment zealots; who have been working steadily toward that goal for decades by systematically chipping away at any sense of connection people feel to their own government. All that's then required is a demagogue to come along and lean on it enough to make it crumble.

Their goal has been to create an image of government as some singular entity ("the" government) and establish a narrative surrounding it as some distinctly separate other thing to be feared — some "other" thing separate and apart from real Americans. It's the same time tested method which has been used forever to fracture any connection or bond that one group of people might feel for another and create a vision of some "other" to be feared and destroyed. Just target the current anxieties, worries, and fears people have in their lives and then accuse the "other" of causing them — repeatedly and relentlessly over a long period of time. In this case, "the" government (meaning our government) has been the "other" blamed for any number of problems by a determined group of antigovernment ideologues for decades.

When faith in elected government and its institutions at the top have been sufficiently eroded by decades of sustained effort, all that's needed is to attack the foundation on which it rests which is faith in democracy and its exercise by the people thru elections. Then watch it collapse into anarchy as it did on January 6th in the central symbol and seat of self-government, the nation's Capitol. That's where we are today and it's a dangerous time — if you haven't turned a blind eye and are deliberately ignoring it or are complicit in attempting to conceal it.

Average working Americans have been sold down the river by the Corpocracy and it's no wonder they're pissed off.  Most middle class, middle aged Americans see themselves and their families as worse off than in previous decades. And they're right - they are worse off in many ways, but it's their own fault. They blame the government for their situation, but for some reason they keep voting against their own best interests, electing dysfunctional corrupt politicians.  It was a succession of administrations beginning with Reagan that enabled the current grossly unfair situation and it's going to be very difficult for ordinary Americans to restore a semblance of order and fairness given the level of corruption and intransigence that exists today.

Americans in many ways live lives inferior to those in other western democracies.  They work harder and longer for less money, they're less free, worse educated and arguably less happy than the rest of us.  Yet, they keep voting for these horrible politicians.

Failures in healthcare, education, governance, economic equality and overall quality of life are all indicators of a type of "American Exceptionalism" intentionally hidden by those who continue to profit from the status quo.  Soon or later, it's going to reach the boiling point and it's not going to be pretty.  Like TechTalk, I see significant disruption ahead.

[Peter McLennan]

Maybe I can put the plunger, mop, and bucket away for a little while if that's the case.

But I'll keep the pooper scooper handy.  I hate turds on the floor.

[Robert Roaldi]

Average working Americans have been sold down the river by the Corpocracy and it's no wonder they're pissed off.  Most middle class, middle aged Americans see themselves and their families as worse off than in previous decades. And they're right - they are worse off in many ways, but it's their own fault. They blame the government for their situation, but for some reason they keep voting against their own best interests, electing dysfunctional corrupt politicians.  It was a succession of administrations beginning with Reagan that enabled the current grossly unfair situation and it's going to be very difficult for ordinary Americans to restore a semblance of order and fairness given the level of corruption and intransigence that exists today.

Americans in many ways live lives inferior to those in other western democracies.  They work harder and longer for less money, they're less free, worse educated and arguably less happy than the rest of us.  Yet, they keep voting for these horrible politicians.

Failures in healthcare, education, governance, economic equality and overall quality of life are all indicators of a type of "American Exceptionalism" intentionally hidden by those who continue to profit from the status quo.  Soon or later, it's going to reach the boiling point and it's not going to be pretty.  Like TechTalk, I see significant disruption ahead.

Things may be worse that you think. A recent Making Sense podcast (No. 285) by Sam Harris is titled American Division: https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/285-american-division. He interviews David French (short bio: David French is a senior editor at The Dispatch and a contributing writer for The Atlantic. A graduate of Harvard Law School, David was previously a senior writer for National Review and a columnist for Time. He is a former constitutional litigator and a past president of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education. David is a New York Times bestselling author, and his most recent book, Divided We Fall: America’s Secession Threat and How to Restore Our Nation, was released last September. David is a former major in the United States Army Reserve and is a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom, where he was awarded the Bronze Star.)

The blurb from the page indicates the topics covered in their discussion: In this episode of the podcast, Sam Harris speaks with David French about forces that are pulling American society apart. They discuss David’s experience as a JAG officer in Iraq, his experience of harassment for coming out against Trump, the way real grievances drive political derangement, the illiberalism on both the Left and the Right, the role of prophecy in Evangelical support for Trump, honor culture, the response to Hunter Biden’s laptop, the January 6th hearings, the personality cult of Trumpism, federalism, geographic sorting, group polarization, cultural divisions in sports and entertainment, the gun rights movement, the ethics of gun ownership, whether Trump will be prosecuted, the 2024 Presidential campaign, the dangers of online activism, and other topics.

David French makes some interesting comments re being a democracy vs being a republic. Some should listen to that bit. Summary: it's a bullshit distinction.

I am about halfway through the podcast and a part that struck me so far was about prophecy and Trump. I had no inkling of this but apparently there is a sizeable group of evangelicals (David French is not among those despite being an evangelical Christian) who believe that Trump was god's candidate and that his election was prophesied. The fact that he won the 2016 election when no one believed it was possible is held up as a sign of divine intervention by them. I mention this because it was the first time I heard this and because there is essentially no counter-argument. If you believe, you believe, and that's all she wrote. This came up in a discussion about why Trump remains popular with his base despite his appalling personal behaviour. Mr French's partial argument for that is that those people have grown up thinking that the Democratic party is there to crush them into oblivion, so in an existential moment, any alliance may be seen as good. But you should listen to his much more eloquent description of this.

It's a fascinating discussion but very long and only the first 47 min or so are freely available, the rest is behind a paywall. The bit about religion and the election takes place in the free section.

[TechTalk]

David French makes some interesting comments re being a democracy vs being a republic. Some should listen to that bit. Summary: it's a bullshit distinction.

People pushing false narratives love to use false dichotomies, like democracy vs republic, in an effort to fool the gullible or ignorant into believing it's a choice between one thing or the other. For anyone not aware [Alan], the United States is a democratic republic.

...We're a constitutional republic, not a democracy...

We're a federal government, not a democracy...

[PeterAit]

You failed to mention that Chief of the Capitol Police Sund, Sargeant of Arms of the House Irving, and Sargeant of the Arms of the Senate Stenger were all fired for their incompetence on Jan 6th. (Officially they were asked to submit their resignation, the way things are done in Washington). 

What should they have done? According to the GOP it was a bunch of peaceful, patriotic protestors going to the capital. Maybe they should have called in reinforcements with machine guns and blown all the MAGA traitors to hell.

And when BLM protestors torched and looted stores, why aren't you blaming the police for not providing enough protection?

And, a minor point, it is "sergeant."

[Alan Klein]

What should they have done? According to the GOP it was a bunch of peaceful, patriotic protestors going to the capital. Maybe they should have called in reinforcements with machine guns and blown all the MAGA traitors to hell.

And when BLM protestors torched and looted stores, why aren't you blaming the police for not providing enough protection?

And, a minor point, it is "sergeant."

The police should have.  However, the politicians running these cities told the police to back off.  They allowed the looting after the marching.   It's still happening today.  There are constant invasions of looters of stores because there is little consequence for the looters.    Many cities pushed to defund the police.  Other cities have decriminalized lower-level crimes or thefts under $900.  Crime rates have been going up because criminals are not stupid.  They know when the law is not being enforced. Starbucks is closing 16 stores in some of these neighborhoods of the affected cities because of a lack of protection. 

[Robert Roaldi]

....There are constant invasions of looters of stores because there is little consequence for the looters. ...

It has been explained a couple of times on these pages that that statement is not true, but you keep repeating it.

[Robert Roaldi]

Unfortunately, there were quite a few people taking advantage of the generous government offers who stopped working and chose taking the easy money instead. And this happened not only in USA, but also in other countries. I know personally people in USA, Canada and Germany who did exactly what Alan described.
Too much money printing and other stupid decisions caused by Fed and well meaning, but clueless and incompetent politicians.

All insurance schemes have freeloaders. All stores have shoplifters. Lots of people cheat on taxes. When emergency measures are brought in the way they were during Covid, everyone knew going in that things were not going to be as tight as they could (or should) be but an emergency is an emergency. You know going in that there will some spillage. It happens every day, everywhere, all the time in almost all facets of our society.

How many people do you think tell their insurance companies that they don't drive much, even though they drive to work every day.  I used to hear about how Americans living near the Canadian border would find ways to sneak into Canada and get free health care. It probably still happens. So what. BFD. You implement systems to prevent against that of thing and try to plug holes as you discover them. You don't throw out insurance.

I don't know the numbers so I'm talking through my hat, but I would not be surprised if the amount of money mis-used in this way is utterly trivial in the larger scheme of things.

[TechTalk]

It has been explained a couple of times on these pages that that statement is not true, but you keep repeating it.

Alan can spin false narratives and make false assertions faster than anyone could possibly correct them. It's so easy to just say stuff when you don't care whether it's true or not. It's time consuming to disentangle fact, fiction, and half-truths.

In the end, it doesn't matter because he has no reluctance in repeating the same false assertions that have already been debunked and the game starts all over again.

[LesPalenik]

All insurance schemes have freeloaders. All stores have shoplifters. Lots of people cheat on taxes. When emergency measures are brought in the way they were during Covid, everyone knew going in that things were not going to be as tight as they could (or should) be but an emergency is an emergency. You know going in that there will some spillage. It happens every day, everywhere, all the time in almost all facets of our society.

Firstly, it's inappropriate and counterproductive to condone the petty criminal acts whether it is shoplifting or insurance cheating.
Secondly, what Alan said (at least I understood it in that way) that some people chose to take early retirement or went on unemployment/covid support instead of looking for new jobs. Neither of these two things is criminal, people just took advantage of such situations. Without the overly gratuitous stimulus many of those people would be still working.

[Alan Klein]

All insurance schemes have freeloaders. All stores have shoplifters. Lots of people cheat on taxes. When emergency measures are brought in the way they were during Covid, everyone knew going in that things were not going to be as tight as they could (or should) be but an emergency is an emergency. You know going in that there will some spillage. It happens every day, everywhere, all the time in almost all facets of our society.

How many people do you think tell their insurance companies that they don't drive much, even though they drive to work every day.  I used to hear about how Americans living near the Canadian border would find ways to sneak into Canada and get free health care. It probably still happens. So what. BFD. You implement systems to prevent against that of thing and try to plug holes as you discover them. You don't throw out insurance.

I don't know the numbers so I'm talking through my hat, but I would not be surprised if the amount of money mis-used in this way is utterly trivial in the larger scheme of things.

it was estimated that over $200 billion dollars was stolen from the PPP plan stimulus and giveaway programs. That's not trivial. As an aside, unemployment insurance requires those on it to actively look for jobs. So people who sit home collecting checks and didn't look, we're breaking the law.

[Alan Klein]

It has been explained a couple of times on these pages that that statement is not true, but you keep repeating it.

My statement is true. Looting and shoplifting are rampant.

Shoplifters hitting NYC supermarkets with increasingly brazen heists
Shoplifters are hitting supermarket aisles across New York City with increasingly brazen heists — emboldened by soft-on-crime laws that are forcing grocers to take matters into their own hands even as they shell out more cash for security.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2022/07/10/shoplifters-hit-supermarkets-with-increasingly-brazen-heists/amp/

[PeterAit]

Firstly, it's inappropriate and counterproductive to condone the petty criminal acts whether it is shoplifting or insurance cheating.
Secondly, what Alan said (at least I understood it in that way) that some people chose to take early retirement or went on unemployment/covid support instead of looking for new jobs. Neither of these two things is criminal, people just took advantage of such situations. Without the overly gratuitous stimulus many of those people would be still working.

I don't think he is condoning these acts, just saying they are unavoidable and not worthy of hand-wringing.

[Robert Roaldi]

I don't think he is condoning these acts, just saying they are unavoidable and not worthy of hand-wringing.

Precisely. The best explanation of all these types of things, theft prevention, etc., all examples of insurance systems, that I have read is in the book Filthy Lucre by Joseph Heath. There will always be a certain percentage of people who try to get away with stuff. It's always a trade-off to decide how much to spend on prevention and how much to absorb as spillage. There's no point pretending that we can do better than optimize for various parameters. It's how we do everything.

[Robert Roaldi]

it was estimated that over $200 billion dollars was stolen from the PPP plan stimulus and giveaway programs. That's not trivial. As an aside, unemployment insurance requires those on it to actively look for jobs. So people who sit home collecting checks and didn't look, we're breaking the law.

I'll be honest here Alan. Given your track record of having nearly all of your postings being fact-checked and found wanting, I cannot take this number at face value. To put it more bluntly, I simply do not believe anything you say anymore, the percentages are against it.

If you think about it, and you won't, this is similar to you refusing to listen to a podcast interview because the interviewee has written for the New York Times in the past and is therefore lying.

But on its face, your assumption that all monies given away in stimulus is money lost is horse shit. It put money in people's hands that they spend on groceries and rent. Or would you prefer millions of homeless people living in shacks like hobos did in the 1930s? I know, I know, don't bother responding: Guvmint is bad, private enterprise is good, no need to repeat the mantra.

[Alan Klein]

Precisely. The best explanation of all these types of things, theft prevention, etc., all examples of insurance systems, that I have read is in the book Filthy Lucre by Joseph Heath. There will always be a certain percentage of people who try to get away with stuff. It's always a trade-off to decide how much to spend on prevention and how much to absorb as spillage. There's no point pretending that we can do better than optimize for various parameters. It's how we do everything.

If you don't go after low-level crime like shoplifting, it escalates into more dangerous types where people are robbed and assaulted. Criminals become more brazen.  Inner cities and minority neighborhoods are hurt the worse as businesses don't move in or shut down because they can't keep up with the losses due to theft.  See my above article how Starbucks is abandoning 16 locations.  So the poor people living there can't shop locally or have to pay premium prices because the storekeepers raise prices to cover their theft loses.  Tourists and other visitors stop visiting even better neighborhoods for fear of being victims.  Cities fail.

[Alan Klein]

I'll be honest here Alan. Given your track record of having nearly all of your postings being fact-checked and found wanting, I cannot take this number at face value. To put it more bluntly, I simply do not believe anything you say anymore, the percentages are against it.

If you think about it, and you won't, this is similar to you refusing to listen to a podcast interview because the interviewee has written for the New York Times in the past and is therefore lying.

But on its face, your assumption that all monies given away in stimulus is money lost is horse shit. It put money in people's hands that they spend on groceries and rent. Or would you prefer millions of homeless people living in shacks like hobos did in the 1930s? I know, I know, don't bother responding: Guvmint is bad, private enterprise is good, no need to repeat the mantra.

Most people here don't fact-check my postings.  All they do is attack me personally and not what I had to say.  Many of my postings I attach an article more than most people do here, to support my views.  I didn't do it this time so I'll do it now.  I said more than $200 billion was stolen.  Frankly, it's a lot more than these articles indicate. Apologies accepted. 

Here are two articles showing not only what was stolen, but how little was recovered because the government frankly doesn't care.  Also, I never said that all monies given away due to Covid were lost.  The main point I made was that Biden continues to try to spend money in more giveaways.  That despite all the inflation we have now,  long after the need for the stimulus money was needed.  Then he blames the Russians for causing it, or gas stations owners, or whatever. 

Kennedy, Crapo introduce bill to return stolen COVID unemployment money to taxpayers
Of the roughly $163 billion in COVID unemployment insurance that people took illegally, states have only recovered about $4 billion.
https://www.kennedy.senate.gov/public/2022/7/kennedy-crapo-introduce-bill-to-return-stolen-covid-unemployment-money-to-taxpayers#:~:text=Of%20the%20roughly%20%24163%20billion,only%20recovered%20about%20%244%20billion.

Criminals have stolen nearly $100 billion in Covid relief funds, Secret Service says
The stolen funds were diverted by fraudsters from the Small Business Administration’s Paycheck Protection Program, the Economic Injury Disaster Loan program and a another program set up to dole out unemployment assistance funds nationwide.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/21/criminals-have-stolen-nearly-100-billion-in-covid-relief-funds-secret-service.html

[TechTalk]

cities have decriminalized lower-level crimes or thefts under $900.

This is false. States and cities have raised the dollar amount for felony charges of theft. This is to keep the law in line with inflation. Just as before, theft under the amount for felony charges is still a misdemeanor crime.

[TechTalk]

Starbucks is closing 16 stores in some of these neighborhoods of the affected cities because of a lack of protection.

Starbucks has over 15,400 stores in the United States. That they are closing 16 stores, which sell expensive coffee, in neighborhoods with a high crime rate is not indicative of the collapse of cities or western civilization.