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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 472296 times)

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14260 on: June 19, 2022, 09:18:10 pm »

...you post an article that you didn't read (or didn't understand)...

or read and understood, but chose to ignore the essential elements of the narrative which didn't fit his own.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14261 on: June 19, 2022, 09:23:29 pm »

I'm glad to see that in just a couple of posts I got more juices flowing in this thread then has been in many months. It had been dying along with Lulu.

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14262 on: June 19, 2022, 09:25:23 pm »

Seriously, I find it sad to witness insecurity to a degree that it creates a need for self-congratulation and praise.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14263 on: June 19, 2022, 09:26:58 pm »

I still have the time and patience to discuss honest disagreements. What I've decided to no longer waste time and energy with is responding to people that are habitually disingenuous or dishonest in either their remarks or their framing of them. Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of people, with whom I discuss topics of disagreement, do not fall into the latter category.
So you only want to discuss things with people who agree with you.  You used to be more open.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14264 on: June 19, 2022, 09:32:18 pm »

Oh fer crying out loud, Alan, you post an article that you didn't read (or didn't understand). The bear population has not EXPANDED, it's just that a new group of bears has been DISCOVERED. It was there all along.This should be a cause for joy, but no excuse to ignore the droughts and floods and heat waves and blizzards that climate change is causing all over the world.
Peter, you confirmed what I said in my post. Thanks.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14265 on: June 19, 2022, 09:39:05 pm »

Judge Carter's ruling becomes more interesting at page 30 where the discussion turns to the "Crime-fraud exception" to lawyer-client privilege. The ruling explains: The crime-fraud exception applies when (1) a “client consults an attorney for advice that will serve [them] in the commission of a fraud or crime,” and (2) the communications are “sufficiently related to” and were made “in furtherance of” the crime. It is irrelevant whether the attorney was aware of the illegal purpose or whether the scheme was ultimately successful.

He then analyzes "Potential crimes or fraud" which may have been committed. The first potential crime is "Obstruction of an official proceeding". Following this, "Conspiracy to defraud the United States" is also analyzed in some detail. "Common law fraud" is briefly discussed. These are followed by a section on "Actions in furtherance of crime or fraud".

Then we get to the final page (#44) "Section IV. Disposition":

Dr. Eastman and President Trump launched a campaign to overturn a democratic election, an action unprecedented in American history. Their campaign was not confined to the ivory tower—it was a coup in search of a legal theory. The plan spurred violent attacks on the seat of our nation’s government, led to the deaths of several law enforcement officers, and deepened public distrust in our political process.

More than a year after the attack on our Capitol, the public is still searching for accountability. This case cannot provide it. The Court is tasked only with deciding a dispute over a handful of emails. This is not a criminal prosecution; this is not even a civil liability suit. At most, this case is a warning about the dangers of “legal theories” gone wrong, the powerful abusing public platforms, and desperation to win at all costs. If Dr. Eastman and President Trump’s plan had worked, it would have permanently ended the peaceful transition of power, undermining American democracy and the Constitution. If the country does not commit to investigating and pursuing accountability for those responsible, the Court fears January 6 will repeat itself.

The Democrats will indict Trump to change the mid-term election conversations away from the disasters that Biden and the Democrats have created in a year and a half since he's been president. 

I don't think the electorate is going to fall for it again.

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14266 on: June 19, 2022, 09:41:59 pm »

So you only want to discuss things with people who agree with you. 
No, just not people who don't have half a clue; the professional (only profession) empty-headed.
Quote
Peter, you confirmed what I said in my post.
Example of the classic empty-headed misunderstanding so many here expected.

"An empty head is not really empty; it is stuffed with rubbish. Hence the difficulty of forcing anything into an empty head." -Eric Hoffer

I don't think the electorate is going to fall for it again.
The first three words above; we are in total agreement. You don't.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14267 on: June 19, 2022, 09:45:30 pm »

It doesn't matter to me. I've given up trying to drill in places where all you will ever find after drilling thru one layer of rock is another layer of rock.

and thru with taking bait which serves only to reward attention seeking behavior pathology.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14268 on: June 19, 2022, 09:46:40 pm »

and thru with taking bait which serves only to reward attention seeking behavior pathology.
Well explained in this short video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-_Fav3iPTE0
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14269 on: June 19, 2022, 09:52:32 pm »

No, just not people who don't have half a clue;

I don't have an issue with what people know, don't know, or think they know in order to have a conversation. It's when the talk is clearly and consistently disingenuous or dishonest that I've lost any interest.
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Manoli

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14270 on: June 20, 2022, 01:16:57 am »

… pressured and by whom; and the potential criminal liability for Eastman and Trump. Cited during the hearing was the case brought by Eastman to withhold documents and the ruling by Federal Judge David O. Carter.

Judge Carter did block a small number of documents, but allowed most to be released to the committee. His 44-page ruling in the case is worth reading. I at least recommend reading pages 3 thru 11, which lays out the background facts regarding: 1) Election fraud claims, 2) Plan to disrupt electoral count, and 3) Attack on the Capitol in a very clear, methodical, and concise manner. There are then several pages of legal analysis regarding the documentary evidence that Eastman is trying to block.

Thank you for these links.
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Manoli

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14271 on: June 20, 2022, 01:31:51 am »

The Democrats will indict Trump to change the mid-term election conversations away from the disasters that Biden and the Democrats have created …

Giving more than just credence to my post #14251, and in particular …
‘see no evil, hear no evil’.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 04:25:58 am by Manoli »
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14272 on: June 20, 2022, 01:46:23 am »

Thank you for these links.

Happy to do so. It's always nice to have the original source material to read.
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Manoli

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14273 on: June 20, 2022, 04:23:20 am »

Excerpted from The Economist,

... The insurrection, Ms Cheney suggested, was not an unfortunate culmination of his lies; rather it represented his last throw of the dice in a “sophisticated seven-part plan to overturn the presidential election and prevent the transfer of presidential power”.  They are,

first, Mr Trump’s effort to spread misinformation about an election he had lost;
second, his scheme to replace the acting attorney-general and suborn the Justice Department;
third, his leaning on the vice-president, Mike Pence, to illegally refuse to certify the electoral vote;
fourth, his effort to make state election officials and legislators change their vote-counts;
fifth, a scheme executed by his lawyers to persuade Republican state legislators to create false electoral slates and report them to Congress; and
sixth and seventh, his summoning of the maga mob and refusal to act as it tore up the Capitol.

Though each part is familiar (and, arguably, proven), Ms Cheney’s confidence in asserting that they add up to a meticulously planned and perhaps criminal conspiracy was striking.

[Re Judge Carter]
He considered that by leaning on Mr Pence, Mr Trump had “more likely than not” broken federal laws against “[conspiring] to defraud the United States” and corruptly obstructing government business. Though not a criminal verdict, which would require a heavier burden of proof, this was a dramatic moment in presidential history. If convicted of the crimes Judge Carter says he probably committed, Mr Trump could spend the rest of his life in prison.

Probably the biggest legal impediment to that would be the difficulty of establishing criminal intent. It would have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt that Mr Trump secretly knew that he had lost the election, so acted not merely inappropriately but corruptly. This is where the high quality of the testimonies and other evidence the committee has gathered could be telling.

[Merrick’s dilemma]
Whether Merrick Garland might charge him is another matter. While prosecuting hundreds of foot-soldiers of the Capitol riot, Joe Biden’s attorney-general has given no indication that he intends to pursue Mr Trump. A cautious institutionalist, Mr Garland is intent on removing Mr Barr’s taint of politicisation from his department. Arresting the previous president would make that hard.

As Ms Cheney knows, the prospects of blocking Mr Trump electorally are receding. Most Republicans say he won the election and hardly any Republican politician dares say otherwise. On June 14th a Trump-backed primary challenger defeated Tom Rice of South Carolina, making him the fifth of the ten Republican House members who voted to impeach Mr Trump to be pushed out. Mr Trump is the clear favourite to be the Republican nominee in 2024.

It is why Mr Garland’s decision looks so important. Yet that will perhaps make him even more reluctant to act.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 05:00:13 am by Manoli »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14274 on: June 20, 2022, 09:39:29 am »

Excerpted from The Economist,

... The insurrection, Ms Cheney suggested, was not an unfortunate culmination of his lies; rather it represented his last throw of the dice in a “sophisticated seven-part plan to overturn the presidential election and prevent the transfer of presidential power”.  They are,

first, Mr Trump’s effort to spread misinformation about an election he had lost;
second, his scheme to replace the acting attorney-general and suborn the Justice Department;
third, his leaning on the vice-president, Mike Pence, to illegally refuse to certify the electoral vote;
fourth, his effort to make state election officials and legislators change their vote-counts;
fifth, a scheme executed by his lawyers to persuade Republican state legislators to create false electoral slates and report them to Congress; and
sixth and seventh, his summoning of the maga mob and refusal to act as it tore up the Capitol.

Though each part is familiar (and, arguably, proven), Ms Cheney’s confidence in asserting that they add up to a meticulously planned and perhaps criminal conspiracy was striking.

[Re Judge Carter]
He considered that by leaning on Mr Pence, Mr Trump had “more likely than not” broken federal laws against “[conspiring] to defraud the United States” and corruptly obstructing government business. Though not a criminal verdict, which would require a heavier burden of proof, this was a dramatic moment in presidential history. If convicted of the crimes Judge Carter says he probably committed, Mr Trump could spend the rest of his life in prison.

Probably the biggest legal impediment to that would be the difficulty of establishing criminal intent. It would have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt that Mr Trump secretly knew that he had lost the election, so acted not merely inappropriately but corruptly. This is where the high quality of the testimonies and other evidence the committee has gathered could be telling.

[Merrick’s dilemma]
Whether Merrick Garland might charge him is another matter. While prosecuting hundreds of foot-soldiers of the Capitol riot, Joe Biden’s attorney-general has given no indication that he intends to pursue Mr Trump. A cautious institutionalist, Mr Garland is intent on removing Mr Barr’s taint of politicisation from his department. Arresting the previous president would make that hard.

As Ms Cheney knows, the prospects of blocking Mr Trump electorally are receding. Most Republicans say he won the election and hardly any Republican politician dares say otherwise. On June 14th a Trump-backed primary challenger defeated Tom Rice of South Carolina, making him the fifth of the ten Republican House members who voted to impeach Mr Trump to be pushed out. Mr Trump is the clear favourite to be the Republican nominee in 2024.

It is why Mr Garland’s decision looks so important. Yet that will perhaps make him even more reluctant to act.

The Congressional investigation is led by Democrats who have a political rationale to keep the Jan 6th hearings going - the upcoming midterms.  They want the discussion to be about Trump rather than inflation, illegal immigration, high oil prices, recession, crime, etc.  These topics are all losers for Democrats across the country. So far only the prosecution has presented its case in Congress, much like the Soviet Star Chamber prosecutions of political enemies a few decades ago.  The defense never really has a chance to present its side.  So we're only getting one side of the argument, which is not the American way.

Also, keep in mind that if there is a real trial, witnesses will be subpoenaed by the Trump defense to testify.  That means that Speaker Nancy Polisi, who is one of the 3 or 4 people in charge of the Capitol police who failed to do their job, will be called.  She'll have to swear to her actions prior to the event that she didn't play a hand in suppressing an increase in police availability.  (Army units offered to supply additional troops.  But these were turned down by the Capitol police commander who was fired after the riot). That would show that Democrats may have played a hand in creating conditions for a riot.  Other Democrats will be called as well to testify what their involvement was.   It could well show that Democrats played a hand in setting up the whole fiasco, much like the dossier did about false Russian "collusion" at the beginning of Trump's term.

Of course, timing is everything.  Democrats only want there to be a discussion before the elections.  Once Republicans win, if they do, they'll shut down the Jan 6 investigation and have a Star Chamber investigation of the Bidens' selling of the VP's office for monetary gain.  The public will be entertained with a discussion of Democrat corruption for a change.  After all, Trump is getting kind of old.   
« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 09:43:00 am by Alan Klein »
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PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14275 on: June 20, 2022, 10:10:52 am »

So you only want to discuss things with people who agree with you.  You used to be more open.

He didn't say that. He said the exact opposite.
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PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14276 on: June 20, 2022, 10:12:11 am »

I'm glad to see that in just a couple of posts I got more juices flowing in this thread then has been in many months. It had been dying along with Lulu.

Good for you, you are admitting right up front that you are a troll.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14277 on: June 20, 2022, 10:13:20 am »

Senile old parrot trolls & regurgitates the Fox ”News” hogwash about the January 6 insurrection for all to laugh at.
Anyone here believe the old parrot watched a minute of the hearings or understood them? 🤔
« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 10:23:52 am by digitaldog »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14278 on: June 20, 2022, 10:40:53 am »

Good for you, you are admitting right up front that you are a troll.
Re-invigorating a dying thread is not trolling.  The choir was getting boring preaching to itself.  You needed someone with a different perspective on things.   

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14279 on: June 20, 2022, 10:45:34 am »

He didn't say that. He said the exact opposite.
That's what he meant if you read between the lines.  Silencing opposing views claiming they're false is a copout.  You do not have to think when your views are being challenged. It's easier to insult rather than provide logical and well-though out refutation. 
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