Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[TechTalk]

The problem is you often claim only your evidence and facts are valid, that I should be silenced because my evidence is false.

Baloney. Maybe it's time to get your martyr attire dry-cleaned. It's getting a little ripe.

[Alan Klein]

Interesting commentary/thread on Merrick Garland’s speech yesterday relating to the Jan-6 insurrection of 2021.
https://twitter.com/sethabramson/status/1478822419175456773?s=21

Extracted:

8/ Instead, the criticism DOJ is facing that matters most—criticism that comes from those who understand how criminal investigations and prosecutions work—is that there is *no evidence whatsoever* that DOJ is conducting *any* large-scale investigation of high-level coup plotters.

9/ We have seen no court filings from DOJ to this effect. No cooperation deals. No raids. No subpoenas. No document demands. No device seizures. No interrogations. No howling from powerful Trumpists that they are being "targeted" simply for being... seditious insurrectionists.

10/ The conspiracy charges Garland spoke of today haven't led to cooperation deals that could reach Trump or top-tier agents—and we already know the names of 15-20 who helped coordinate what happened on January 6—and this failure lies in the shadow of DOJ's Trump-Russia failures.

11/ Moreover, one thing current or former federal criminal investigators like me know is that there's a *time* value in *all* investigations—and that testimonial evidence from cooperators is only *one type* of evidence. Even if such secret deals have been cut, it *isn't enough*.

12/ What Robert Mueller declared on pg. 10 of his first Trump-Russia report was that Trumpists had hidden and destroyed evidence, rejected all requests for cooperation, and obstructed his probe to the point that he couldn't possibly know if he had anything like all the evidence.

13/ But Garland didn't need Mueller to tell him that when dealing with Trumpist criminals you must get testimony and evidence—documentary, trace, material and otherwise—as quickly as possible, lest it be destroyed even as false testimony is encouraged, concocted and synchronized.

14/ Trumpists criminals aren't much different from *other* white-collar criminals—they don't believe the law applies to them and will tamper with, hide, destroy, miscast and otherwise pervert evidence (testimonial or physical) with a sense of impunity. So he needed to act *fast*.

All we hear from Democrats and the left is how there was an attempt to overthrow the government, sedition, a coop, insurrection,etc.  Yet, no one was charged with those crimes.  Most of the penalties were minor for misdemeanors, minor first-time offenses.  Some were charged with trespass, damage to government property, stealing beer from the House refrigerator, etc.  The more serious charges have been assaults on police. I suspect there will be some very serious jail time still to come for those who acted more violently.  But except for a couple of miscreants who had dreams of grandeur in their own heads, there was no plan to overthrow the government as the left media keeps saying.  This was a demonstration that got out of hand and turned into a riot.  It wasn't an armed insurrection.

Here's an interesting article on the results of 50 or so charges and dispositions.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/11/politics/january-6-capitol-riot-punishments-jail/index.html

[TechTalk]

But except for a couple of miscreants who had dreams of grandeur in their own heads

One of those miscreants was the sitting president. Sitting on his fat ass while the Capitol was being assaulted on live TV.

[TechTalk]

there was no plan to overthrow the government...

What do you call a plan to prevent the election of a president from being certified in Congress?

[TechTalk]

This was a demonstration that got out of hand...

You think?

[TechTalk]

It wasn't an armed insurrection.

Actually, that is exactly what it was.

[Alan Klein]

One of those miscreants was the sitting president. Sitting on his fat ass while the Capitol was being assaulted on live TV.

You may be right.  Or you could be wrong.  Had he sent in Armies from nearby states to support the Capitol police, he would have been accused by you and the left and Democrats of trying to use them to take control of the government.  That he ordered an armed insurrection and coup attempt.  In any case, he was not re-elected for a second term.  That's how democracy works. 

Right now, we have a current president who's not doing too well with the country's issues which may cause Congress to flip.  Democrats and the president would be better advised to focus on today's issues. Get them corrected.  Instead, they're doing a lousy job. Complaining about Trump isn't going to save the day for them in November. 

[TechTalk]

You may be right.

There isn't any doubt. It's a matter of public record.

[TechTalk]

That's how democracy works. 

Something that the sitting President, one year ago, was trying to undermine and prevent from working. He and his collaborators and apologists are still trying to undermine and prevent it from working in the future.

[TechTalk]

Had he sent in Armies from nearby states to support the Capitol police, he would have been accused by you and the left and Democrats of trying to use them to take control of the government.

Pardon me for a moment while I go and vomit.

[Alan Klein]

What do you call a plan to prevent the election of a president from being certified in Congress?

Demonstrations for that are perfectly legal just as trying to convince electors to vote for someone else is legal.  People are allowed to express their views and petition the government. The illegal part was trespassing and breaking into the building and damaging property and assaulting police officers.   

If you want to go to Washington on inauguration day when the president is sworn in and hold signs that say "He's Corrupt.  The Vote Was a Fraud,
 He Shouldn't be Sworn In" and yell about it, that's perfectly legal.  You just can't throw an egg at the president-elect.

[TechTalk]

Demonstrations for that are perfectly legal...

and no one here gives a shit about that or is discussing that when referring to what happened on January 6th. Do you actually expect that diversion to work? If so, on whom?

[Alan Klein]

Actually, that is exactly what it was.

Oh please.  The fact that some Americans carry weapons is nothing unusual.  The fact is no one was brandishing arms and shooting into the air or shot at police as they ran over them to enter the building.  Sure there were scuffles and fistfights and the like.  But that's not an armed rebellion.  You're being hyperbolic to make it look worse than it was.  Read the article I linked to for what most of the charges and penalties were for. 

[TechTalk]

Do you actually expect that diversion to work? If so, on whom?

[Robert Roaldi]

Here's a short article about Don Trump Jr. from The Atlantic, https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/12/gospel-donald-trump-jr/621122/. So much venom and spite and it's not clear to me why.

This guy at politico.com poses a good question, https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/01/06/new-civil-war-about-what-exactly-526603.

[Alan Klein]

Something that the sitting President, one year ago, was trying to undermine and prevent from working. He and his collaborators and apologists are still trying to undermine and prevent it from working in the future.

The fact is the new president was elected and sworn in and the old president is gone.  The system worked. 

To argue that Trump had to send in the armies from two adjacent states to help out the lame Capitol Police is just silly.  Why wasn't the Capitol Police prepared to do their job?  They don't report to the president but to the Congress.  Where was Nancy Pelosi?  Why wasn't she doing her job and hiring a commander capable of doing the job properly?  He reported to her.  She had to fire him after the demonstration for his incompetency.  Why didn't she do that before the demonstration and hire a qualified leader? Why isn't the media talking about her failures? How is this the president's problem?  Should the president have also policed the BLM riots with Federal troops?  (He did offer, but was rightfully told to mind his business).   

[Alan Klein]

and no one here gives a shit about that or is discussing that when referring to what happened on January 6th. Do you actually expect that diversion to work? If so, on whom?

You're getting vulgar. You're losing it. 

[TechTalk]

No, I'm restraining myself.

[TechTalk]

The fact is the new president...

Do you actually expect that diversion to work? If so, on whom?

[TechTalk]

To argue that Trump had to send in the armies from two adjacent states to help out the lame Capitol Police is just silly...

Pardon me for a moment while I go and vomit.