Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Robert Roaldi]

The liberal biased press ignores incidents that embarrass the Democrats and play up the ones that are bad for the Republicans. There's no balance in the news.

I don't remember a shortage of stories about the BLM protests.

[Alan Klein]

I don't remember a shortage of stories about the BLM protests.

That's true while they were occurring as they were happening every day for weeks.  However, I didn't see many follow-ups afterward with trials and people going to jail for rioting and looting as we have with the Jan 6 arrests.   The stories fell off a cliff. The Jan 6th riot is now in the news every day as a Democratic-controlled congress presses the issue politically.  It's all about using it to try to affect the election in November as that's all the democrats have.  They're failing everywhere else.

[Alan Klein]

Bad news for America.  In 1953, the CEO of GM said at a Congressional hearing, "As goes GM, so goes the Nation."  Let's hope Tesla fills in the gap.

Toyota Ends 90 Years Of GM Dominance Of The U.S. Auto Market
The Detroit automaker has been the largest seller of vehicles in the country since 1931, when it surpassed Ford.
https://www.thestreet.com/latest-news/toyota-ends-90-years-of-gm-dominance-of-the-us-auto-market

[Robert Roaldi]

That's true while they were occurring as they were happening every day for weeks.  However, I didn't see many follow-ups afterward with trials and people going to jail for rioting and looting as we have with the Jan 6 arrests.   The stories fell off a cliff. The Jan 6th riot is now in the news every day as a Democratic-controlled congress presses the issue politically.  It's all about using it to try to affect the election in November as that's all the democrats have.  They're failing everywhere else.

That's kind of understandable though, isn't it. I mean, American history is full of riots but attacks on the Capitol fomented by a losing President is sort of a unique situation.

I have a couple of questions for you while we're here. In one of the posts above, you mentioned 6 dead during the BLM protests. Does that include the 2 that Kyle Rittenhouse dispatched? I ask because the courts declared those to be "righteous shoots" (in the vernacular), so maybe they shouldn't be included in the total.

A second question arises from your past support of the 2nd amendment. You have stated several times that carrying weapons is a guarantor of a citizen's right not to be arbitrarily detained by their government. Do you view the Jan 6 insurrection as an example of that? Do you regard the BLM protests as something similar? Please clarify any differences.

[Robert Roaldi]

Bad news for America.  In 1953, the CEO of GM said at a Congressional hearing, "As goes GM, so goes the Nation."  Let's hope Tesla fills in the gap.

Toyota Ends 90 Years Of GM Dominance Of The U.S. Auto Market
The Detroit automaker has been the largest seller of vehicles in the country since 1931, when it surpassed Ford.
https://www.thestreet.com/latest-news/toyota-ends-90-years-of-gm-dominance-of-the-us-auto-market

Should the government curtail Toyota in the same way they should curtail oil imports to protect American jobs?

[Robert Roaldi]

I just wanted to bring the attached chart to everyone's attention, https://www.instagram.com/p/CF5Kh57Aw5L/?hl=en. It may be well-known but I only saw it yesterday for the first time.

[digitaldog]

Should the government curtail Toyota in the same way they should curtail oil imports to protect American jobs?

If you want a reasonable answer, ask a reasonable person. 😂

[Alan Klein]

That's kind of understandable though, isn't it. I mean, American history is full of riots but attacks on the Capitol fomented by a losing President is sort of a unique situation.

I have a couple of questions for you while we're here. In one of the posts above, you mentioned 6 dead during the BLM protests. Does that include the 2 that Kyle Rittenhouse dispatched? I ask because the courts declared those to be "righteous shoots" (in the vernacular), so maybe they shouldn't be included in the total.

A second question arises from your past support of the 2nd amendment. You have stated several times that carrying weapons is a guarantor of a citizen's right not to be arbitrarily detained by their government. Do you view the Jan 6 insurrection as an example of that? Do you regard the BLM protests as something similar? Please clarify any differences.

The invasion of the Capitol Bldg was despicable. People should and are being prosecuted.   However, I also blame the Capitol Police for not preparing properly and allowing a demonstration to devolve into a riot.  I'm not excusing the rioters.  They acted criminally and should be prosecuted.  But having an appropriate police force to keep order is required under these circumstances because demonstrations often turn into mobs as happened with BLM as well.   I still question why they were;t ready.  Other police forces asked the Capitol police commander before Jan 6 if they needed help?  The commander said no.  He was subsequently fired by Congress (Speaker Pelosi) who controls the Capitol Police, not the president.  I have this feeling someone told them to back off sp the riots would more possibly happen as they did.  Who?  Why?

I don't know who died in the BLM demonstrations.  The article didn't indicate that.   But I'll make the same point.  The police allowed much of what happened to just happen.  They weren't controlling the situation.  Many police forces during the riots were told to stand back by Democratic mayors and leaders.  That encouraged demonstrators and others to run wild. Had they been allowed to do their jobs, a lot of rioting, killings, and burnings would not have happened.

[Alan Klein]

That's kind of understandable though, isn't it. I mean, American history is full of riots but attacks on the Capitol fomented by a losing President is sort of a unique situation.

I have a couple of questions for you while we're here. In one of the posts above, you mentioned 6 dead during the BLM protests. Does that include the 2 that Kyle Rittenhouse dispatched? I ask because the courts declared those to be "righteous shoots" (in the vernacular), so maybe they shouldn't be included in the total.

A second question arises from your past support of the 2nd amendment. You have stated several times that carrying weapons is a guarantor of a citizen's right not to be arbitrarily detained by their government. Do you view the Jan 6 insurrection as an example of that? Do you regard the BLM protests as something similar? Please clarify any differences.

Regarding your second question, the Second Amendment has nothing to do with either the Capitol invasion or the BLM riots.  These were criminal acts that had nothing to do with protecting the constitution or people's rights.  In the case of the Capitol, demonstrations were fine but not the invasion.  The courts are to be used to seek justice as they were if people feel that there was improper voting. The courts and the constitution have spoken.  Biden is president.

Also, I don't know what you mean by "arbitrarily detained by the government."  I don't recall ever using those words.  The Second Amendment is there to allow citizens as a last resort to stop a central government that has unconstitutionally taken their freedoms away.  That's how America became free from British rule.  The American founders understood that they needed a last resort clause because they understood human nature very well.  You can see today how parties are fighting for power in Washington.  Imagine if we didn't have constitutional safeguards to prevent power-grabbing including the Second Amendment? 

[Robert Roaldi]

...
Also, I don't know what you mean by "arbitrarily detained by the government."  I don't recall ever using those words.  The Second Amendment is there to allow citizens as a last resort to stop a central government that has unconstitutionally taken their freedoms away.  ...

Yes, I should have used your phrase, much better.

In the case of BLM protesters, they determined that police were using unnecessary deadly force against unarmed citizens in far too many cases. I would have thought that getting shot/killed for often no good reason to be a pretty obvious case of a government acting arbitrarily against one's freedoms.

In the case of the Jan 6 insurrectionists, many of them believe that they were acting against an arbitrary government who stole the election. Leaving aside for the moment the fact that isn't the case, wouldn't that qualify in your book as an example of a government arbitrarily acting against one's freedoms?

But hey, if you don't see the connection with your views on the 2nd amendment, I can't make you see one.

[Alan Klein]

Should the government curtail Toyota in the same way they should curtail oil imports to protect American jobs?

First off, Toyota manufacturers in America and  I believe sell most of their cars made here in America.  They have many plants here with American workers.  A lot of foreign companies invest in America.  Good for them; good for us. 

Second, I'm not aware that America curtails oil imports.  The point I've made in the past is that we were oil independent for the first time recently before Biden.  His actions have caused America to need oil imports.  That means we're sending our wealth to Arabs in the Middle East or your Canada instead of keeping it home here in the USA.  I mean, I like our Canadian cousins.  But not that much. 

[Robert Roaldi]

First off, I believe Toyota manufacturers in America sell most of their cars made here in America.  They have many plants here with American workers.  A lot of foreign companies invest in America.  Good for them; good for us. 

Second, I'm not aware that America curtails oil imports.  The point I've made in the past is that we were oil independent for the first time recently before Biden.  His actions have caused America to need oil imports.  That means we're sending our wealth to Arabs in the Middle East or your Canada instead of keeping it home here in the USA.  I mean, I like our Canadian cousins.  But not that much. 

Isn't it the case that much of the oil from foreign sources is dug up by American companies employing American workers overseas?

[Alan Klein]

Isn't it the case that much of the oil from foreign sources is dug up by American companies employing American workers overseas?

That could be to a certain extent.  But they would need local workers in those foreign countries to provide most of the support.  Oil drilling in America are mainly done with Americans. 

Also, there have to be royalties paid to those countries for the oil rights and extraction.  Better if we use American oil so all the money and jobs stay in America.  Also, and maybe more importantly, we kept getting dragged into Middle East adventures because of oil.  Iran, Iraq, Beirut Lebanon, etc.  Who needs that?  Let Europeans defend the flow of oil from the ME.  They're the ones who need it more. If Canada and America could use only our own oil, we could leave the fighting over there to them.

[Alan Klein]

Yes, I should have used your phrase, much better.

In the case of BLM protesters, they determined that police were using unnecessary deadly force against unarmed citizens in far too many cases. I would have thought that getting shot/killed for often no good reason to be a pretty obvious case of a government acting arbitrarily against one's freedoms.

In the case of the Jan 6 insurrectionists, many of them believe that they were acting against an arbitrary government who stole the election. Leaving aside for the moment the fact that isn't the case, wouldn't that qualify in your book as an example of a government arbitrarily acting against one's freedoms?

But hey, if you don't see the connection with your views on the 2nd amendment, I can't make you see one.

The Second Amendment doesn't say it's OK to attack the American government, especially on a whim.  Allowing citizenry to constitutionally keep guns is an understanding that should they believe the government has gone too far in taking away their freedoms, then they will hopefully have the means to restore those freedoms.  But the result of a citizenry taking armed action to do that is warfare, as we went through in our own Civil War where something like 700,000 Americans were killed on both sides. 

When citizens take up arms against their government, they must be prepared to give their own lives and freedom as the government will not stand idly by.  It will defend itself with its laws and its own guns. 

By the way, in both cases, the BLM and Nov 6th actions, I see neither as an attempt to over through the American government.  They were just riots by people who got caught up in their own ego. When police presence breaks down as happened in both cases, looters loot and demonstrators riot.

[TechTalk]

The Second Amendment is there to allow citizens as a last resort to stop a central government that has unconstitutionally taken their freedoms away.

That is not what the Second Amendment says. The purpose is stated at the beginning of the amendment. Part of the purpose is to insure that militias (National Guard in today's language) are available to put down rebellion or insurrection. It is not for the imaginary purpose of the talking point which you parrot.

The Constitution needs to be read as a whole document—not in fragments with a vivid imagination.

The American founders understood that they needed a last resort clause...

There is no "last resort clause". There is an amendment process. Use it, if you want to insert your version of the Second Amendment into the Constitution.

Imagine if we didn't have constitutional safeguards to prevent power-grabbing including the Second Amendment?

The constitution does indeed have safeguards against power being grabbed at the point of a gun by armed mobs of citizens, as well as safeguards against other means of seizing power.

Let's hope that they continue to hold up against the assault by Trump and his anti-democratic Trumpublican collaborators.

[digitaldog]

Who?  Why?

The questions you should be asking in a web site and forum about photography is: "Where can I learn the fundamentals of photographic exposure"?
So many examples that you struggle with that, including a recent one here, where you are not allowed to ask about politics and have to stick to photography:
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/best-software-for-b-w-images.5527492/#post-5932667
Then you can ask about scanning, resolution and the color of the web; all pertinent questions you need answers to, related to photography. 

[Alan Klein]

Regarding the Second Amendment, keep in mind that since America is a Republic made up of sovereign states, currently 50, those individual citizens can use their private weapons to support the states they live in.  So it might not be citizens against the central government in Washington but rather states against the Washington government as happened in our Civil War.

Let's say Trump took over the government in Washington.  Well, citizens of the nearby State of Virginia and even my State of New Jersey, along with our state militias and state guards, private and government, would join forces on a state level to march with our guns into DC to throw the bum out.   Maybe that might make you think more positively about the Second Amendment. 

[LesPalenik]

Bad news for America.  In 1953, the CEO of GM said at a Congressional hearing, "As goes GM, so goes the Nation."  Let's hope Tesla fills in the gap.

Toyota Ends 90 Years Of GM Dominance Of The U.S. Auto Market
The Detroit automaker has been the largest seller of vehicles in the country since 1931, when it surpassed Ford.
https://www.thestreet.com/latest-news/toyota-ends-90-years-of-gm-dominance-of-the-us-auto-market

But Biden says that GM with Mary Barra at the helm are the leaders.

[Alan Klein]

That is not what the Second Amendment says. The purpose is stated at the beginning of the amendment. Part of the purpose is to insure that militias (National Guard in today's language) are available to put down rebellion or insurrection. It is not for the imaginary purpose of the talking point which you parrot.

The Constitution needs to be read as a whole document—not in fragments with a vivid imagination.

There is no "last resort clause". There is an amendment process. Use it, if you want to insert your version of the Second Amendment into the Constitution.

The constitution does indeed have safeguards against power being grabbed at the point of a gun by armed mobs of citizens, as well as safeguards against other means of seizing power.

Let's hope that they continue to hold up against the assault by Trump and his anti-democratic Trumpublican collaborators.

You're incorrect.  The purpose of the Second Amendment was to give the citizenry the ability to protect their liberties should the government take them away.

The Second Amendment Guarantees the Right of Revolution
Turns out, that’s precisely the right question to ask. The Second Amendment, after all, doesn’t recognize our right to hunt deer or protect ourselves from criminals. Owning guns certainly makes doing those things easier, but it’s not why the Founders bothered to codify gun rights. They were getting at something else—the right of revolution.

Simply put, the purpose of the Second Amendment is to give the people the means to overthrow the government in the event it becomes tyrannical.
https://thefederalist.com/2016/06/20/the-second-amendment-isnt-about-hunting-or-self-defense-but-revolution/

[Alan Klein]

But Biden says that GM with Mary Barra at the helm are the leaders.

As an American, I want GM to do good.  It's an important corporation with a lot of American workers.  Unfortunately, the American taxpayer has had to bail them out a couple of times.  They have to get their act together.