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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 469353 times)

LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12400 on: November 23, 2021, 06:34:03 pm »

Biden just opened 80 million acres to bidding for oil exploration in the Gulf of Mexico. Oil companies pay for it in America.   How does that work in Canada?

Hopefully, he has better oil advisors than his automotive consultants.
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Chris Kern

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12401 on: November 23, 2021, 07:11:51 pm »

That is the most convoluted explanation of (and lame excuse for) corruption I've ever read.

Hah!  Just stay tuned and fasten your metaphorical seat belt.  No doubt there‚Äôs more to follow.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12402 on: November 23, 2021, 09:19:19 pm »

That is the most convoluted explanation of (and lame excuse for) corruption I've ever read.
What corruption?  It's allowed constitutionally.  Where's the corruption? How would employees and stockholders be represented if corporations were not allowed to petition their representatives in government?  How would unions represent their members and petition the government?  Individual stockholders and employees cannot on their own petition the government.  It's too costly. 

True, lots of money is spent trying to influence legislation.  Often, laws favor a few that many might not agree with.  But it evens out eventually.  In any case, what is the alternative?  Not to allow groups to petition the government for redress?  How would the government know what the voters want?  Should they decide based on CNN or Fox polls? 

How is it done in Canada?

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12403 on: November 23, 2021, 09:26:59 pm »

What corruption?  It's allowed constitutionally.  Where's the corruption? How would employees and stockholders be represented if corporations were not allowed to petition their representatives in government?  How would unions represent their members and petition the government?  Individual stockholders and employees cannot on their own petition the government.  It's too costly. 

True, lots of money is spent trying to influence legislation.  Often, laws favor a few that many might not agree with.  But it evens out eventually.  In any case, what is the alternative?  Not to allow groups to petition the government for redress?  How would the government know what the voters want?  Should they decide based on CNN or Fox polls? 

How is it done in Canada?

What?
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12404 on: November 23, 2021, 09:29:50 pm »

.. How would employees and stockholders be represented if corporations were not allowed to petition their representatives in government?  ...


By voting?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12405 on: November 23, 2021, 09:31:08 pm »

Citizens United ruled that corporate political spending is protected, holding that corporations have a First Amendment right to free speech because they are "associations of citizens" and hold the collected rights of the individual citizens who constitute them.[24]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12406 on: November 23, 2021, 09:39:33 pm »

By voting?
Voting is not the same as petitioning the government and that is protected in the US Consitution.  It guarantees the right of people to petition the government individually or in groups to redress their grievances.  When an American stands on the street corner within a sign that says: "Lower my Taxes", he is petitioning government.  If he could afford it, he could hire a lobbyist who knows the ins and outs of Congress and goes there to speak directly with congressmen, senators, and the president to lower taxes.  The constitution allows corporations to do the same thing because they represent groups of people like employees, employers, and stockholders. 

Voting is not petitioning.  After all, how else would government officials know what the people want?  Additionally, in a democracy and representative government, people are allowed to complain to the government, march, petition, place ads, and make campaign contributions to support candidates who represent their views. 

Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12407 on: November 24, 2021, 10:22:14 am »

What corruption?

Once again, Alan is the voluntary poster boy for recreational ignorance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#Rankings


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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12408 on: November 24, 2021, 10:30:14 am »

Once again, Alan is the voluntary poster boy for recreational ignorance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#Rankings



Peter, Can't you make a point without an obnoxious and personal insult?  Why not address my points and explain why the US Supreme Court agrees with me.  Well, actually, I'm using their main argument.  But I guess they're ignorant too.   

PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12409 on: November 24, 2021, 11:24:09 am »

Biden just opened 80 million acres to bidding for oil exploration in the Gulf of Mexico.

This is not true. The leasing was opened by Trump. Seven days after Biden's inauguration the administration halted it. A coalition of states sued and a Trump-appointed judge ruled in their favor.  What's happening now is nothing more than the administration following a legal court order.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12410 on: November 24, 2021, 11:39:07 am »

Peter, Can't you make a point without an obnoxious and personal insult? 

"What annoys us about others may say more about ourselves than about them."-C.J. Jung
« Last Edit: November 24, 2021, 09:45:37 pm by digitaldog »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12411 on: November 24, 2021, 11:51:32 am »

This is not true. The leasing was opened by Trump. Seven days after Biden's inauguration the administration halted it. A coalition of states sued and a Trump-appointed judge ruled in their favor.  What's happening now is nothing more than the administration following a legal court order.
So Biden isn't helping America produce more needed oil and gas?  They're just following the law. Figures.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12412 on: November 24, 2021, 11:53:52 am »

What?
How do citizens, corporations, unions, private organizations like the Canadian AMA (Medical Association), and others petition government representatives, parliament, and the PM to push what they want to be done as far as legislation? 

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12413 on: November 24, 2021, 11:56:16 am »

By voting?
There's no way to petition the government for things you might need or to influence legislation?  IS there any way to support candidates who will support your views other than voting for them?  Can you send messages to parliamentarians telling them what you want them to legislate?  Can corporations do that?

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12414 on: November 24, 2021, 11:58:13 am »

Facts:
This is not true. The leasing was opened by Trump. Seven days after Biden's inauguration the administration halted it. A coalition of states sued and a Trump-appointed judge ruled in their favor.  What's happening now is nothing more than the administration following a legal court order.
Ignoring the facts and the mistaken text with digression (usual MO when shown to be wrong):
So Biden isn't helping America produce more needed oil and gas?  They're just following the law. Figures.
What do we own people who are wrong?
What do we own people who are so often wrong, can't accept facts and keep posting bulls%it?
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James Clark

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12415 on: November 24, 2021, 12:19:33 pm »

So Biden isn't helping America produce more needed oil and gas?  They're just following the law.

That, at least, is a nice change from the last guy.  Baby steps, Alan ;)
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James Clark

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12416 on: November 24, 2021, 12:24:50 pm »

There's no way to petition the government for things you might need or to influence legislation?  IS there any way to support candidates who will support your views other than voting for them?  Can you send messages to parliamentarians telling them what you want them to legislate?  Can corporations do that?

Canada's not some third-world country where they disappear you for protesting the government :). And Citizen's United is better understood as confirming not that everyone has a right to speak, but rather that there's no restriction on volume of speech, even if that speech drowns out someone else.   (Not a good thing.)

Also, congrats to our Canadian friends for being the Free-est Country in the World! 

(Edit - that was in 2019.  Canada has since fallen to #15.  What's that all about, eh?  We're nipping at your heels!)

Down "South of the Border" we're all like, "Were Number 20!!! We're Number 20!!!  WOOOOOOOOOOO.  That's NUMBER 1 in MAGAMATH terms. SUCK IT, COMMIES!!!".

:D
« Last Edit: November 24, 2021, 12:31:33 pm by James Clark »
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chez

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12417 on: November 24, 2021, 03:24:27 pm »

Governments are not supposed to be in charge.  We don't have Kings and queens and dictators.  The people are in charge.  Government works for the people.

And we've seen a good example of the people in charge on Jan 6.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12418 on: November 24, 2021, 04:10:48 pm »

Canada's not some third-world country where they disappear you for protesting the government :). And Citizen's United is better understood as confirming not that everyone has a right to speak, but rather that there's no restriction on volume of speech, even if that speech drowns out someone else.   (Not a good thing.)

Also, congrats to our Canadian friends for being the Free-est Country in the World! 

(Edit - that was in 2019.  Canada has since fallen to #15.  What's that all about, eh?  We're nipping at your heels!)

Down "South of the Border" we're all like, "Were Number 20!!! We're Number 20!!!  WOOOOOOOOOOO.  That's NUMBER 1 in MAGAMATH terms. SUCK IT, COMMIES!!!".

:D
The Supreme Court wasn't concerned about volume as much as the constitutional right of corporations, unions, and other organizations to pay for their political speech.  While it's true that some organizations like unions and big corporations have deep pockets that give them potentially a louder megaphone, what is the alternative?  Should we silence them?  That was the basic argument.  The court felt the constitutional protection to petition the government would be lost to individuals since these organizations represent people - workers, stockholders, and other people.  So, therefore, they should have the right to political speech as well. 

Let me give an example.  Let's say LuLa feels that its subscribers, we photographers, have a right to the lowest possible price for film.  So it decides to make a contribution to a PAC or congressional representative campaign who promises to talk to Biden to stop tariffs Trump may have imposed on imported film.  We're not going to contribute thousands. for that purpose individually.  But LuLa can afford it.  Should the government stop LuLa from those contributions because it is a corporation?  Or does the constitution protect it because it represents people?  The court decided that it represents people and allowed LuLa to contribute.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12419 on: November 24, 2021, 04:53:27 pm »

From a Democratic Senator no less:

Manchin calls on Biden to restore Keystone XL pipeline
Centrist Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) is calling on President Biden to restore the Keystone XL pipeline as gas prices across the country rise.

"I continue to call on President Biden to responsibly increase energy production here at home and to reverse course to allow the Keystone XL pipeline to be built which would have provided our country with up to 900,000 barrels of oil per day from Canada, one of our closest allies," Manchin said in a Tuesday statement.

"To be clear, this is about American energy independence and the fact that hard-working Americans should not depend on foreign actors, like OPEC+, for our energy security and instead focus on the real challenges facing our country's future," he added, referring to the group of major oil-producing countries.

Manchin's call for action came shortly after the Biden administration announced a plan on Tuesday to release 50 million barrels of oil from the nation's Strategic Petroleum Reserve in order to curb rising gas prices, the news outlet noted.

In February, Manchin reportedly sided with Republicans who urged Biden to rethink canceling a permit for the pipeline, arguing that pipelines across the country "continue to be the safest mode to transport our oil and natural gas resources, and they support thousands of high-paying, American union jobs.″

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/582936-manchin-calls-on-biden-to-restore-keystone-xl-pipeline
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