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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 455393 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12180 on: November 04, 2021, 08:09:05 am »

What silliness. How many Fijiians would you need to pay off the US debt? How many residents of Bakersfield would it take?

A more apt comparison might be this: What is the ANNUAL US military budget? Does $3 trillion seem so big now?
3 trillion deficit is over four times the annual US military budget.  Yes three is a very large amount.  Plus it doesn't include the new spending bills being discussed in Congress that would add another three trillion in spending. 

A trillion here, a trillion there. Pretty soon you're talking about real money.😀

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12181 on: November 04, 2021, 08:20:46 am »

3 trillion deficit is over four times the annual US military budget.  Yes three is a very large amount.  Plus it doesn't include the new spending bills being discussed in Congress that would add another three trillion in spending. 

A trillion here, a trillion there. Pretty soon you're talking about real money.😀

If there were no interstate highway system what would it cost to build today? Would it be worth it?

What does it cost the US that not everyone has access to basic health care? Is the cost of not having it greater or less than the cost of providing it?

What does the "war on drugs" cost, especially considering that it has never even come close to accomplishing anything other than to help create the largest criminal organizations on earth. Btw, the drug cartels LOVE tax havens.

I know, I know, taxes are bad.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12182 on: November 04, 2021, 09:27:46 am »

If there were no interstate highway system what would it cost to build today? Would it be worth it?

What does it cost the US that not everyone has access to basic health care? Is the cost of not having it greater or less than the cost of providing it?

What does the "war on drugs" cost, especially considering that it has never even come close to accomplishing anything other than to help create the largest criminal organizations on earth. Btw, the drug cartels LOVE tax havens.

I know, I know, taxes are bad.
Taxes aren't bad per se.  But spending more than the country receives in taxes is bad.  We should stay within our means.  The 50 states are required to do that, or most of them.  They can't print.  Only the Federal government can print and inflate the dollar.

Something that just hit me.  One of the costs of the US government that benefits seniors besides Medicare.  Our Social Security payments can exceed $3000 per month.  Yours are limited to $635 per month.  The US Government is "spending" a lot more having less medical care for everyone. 

So it's a tradeoff.  Would you rather get free medical care and $635 per month in retirement? Or have to pay for medical insurance and get $3000 per month? My point is that you have to look at all benefits citizens get, not just medical care.    Payments for Social Security eat up the money that might have been available for other things like free medical care for everyone.  There's only so much to go around.  If you enjoy and spend money on a trip to Florida this winter to warm up a little, then you have to forego the Nikon Z9 you wanted to buy.  It's a tradeoff.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12183 on: November 04, 2021, 10:17:05 am »

... 3 trillion deficit is over four times the annual US military budget. 

So let me get this straight. You're losing it over 3 trillion dollars (and at this point I am no longer certain if 3 trillion is the annual deficit, the total debt, the increase in debt if Biden's infrastructure passes, or some other number entirely), but you're ok with spending that much every 4 years as a matter of routine. All you've done is made my point, that 3 trillion dollars is not a lot of money these days or you wouldn't be routinely spending it every 4 years.

So you're against governments spending money they don't have, but you're ok with giving tax concessions to one of the the world's largest and most profitable corporations, Amazon (who don't pay much tax), so they can relocate, because for some reason they don't want to invest in their own future but prefer it if the taxpayer does instead, an argument that you've expressed agreement with in the past.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12184 on: November 04, 2021, 10:28:33 am »

So let me get this straight. You're losing it over 3 trillion dollars (and at this point I am no longer certain if 3 trillion is the annual deficit, the total debt, the increase in debt if Biden's infrastructure passes, or some other number entirely), but you're ok with spending that much every 4 years as a matter of routine. All you've done is made my point, that 3 trillion dollars is not a lot of money these days or you wouldn't be routinely spending it every 4 years.

So you're against governments spending money they don't have, but you're ok with giving tax concessions to one of the the world's largest and most profitable corporations, Amazon (who don't pay much tax), so they can relocate, because for some reason they don't want to invest in their own future but prefer it if the taxpayer does instead, an argument that you've expressed agreement with in the past.
We're not "losing" 3 trillion dollars.  We're spending it over the annual tax receipts.  Imagine spending 3 trillion over your salary every year. 
;)

$700 billion for our military is a large amount of money.  But relative to our GDP, it's only around 3.5% not that much more than the 2% promised by NATO countries.  I've suggested we cut back on overseas military spending and bring our troops home from Europe.   But the nations over there nearly had heart attacks pleading with Biden to not tell them what Trump said about it.  That way they could go on giving their citizens free medical care which the US can't afford because we're spending all that money defending Europe.  In essence, we're paying for a big part of Europeans free medical care.  How's that fair? 

Additionally, how much does Canada depend on America defending it so it doesn't;t have to increase its own military budget?  It's not cheap to be a superpower defending the free world.  Stop complaining. 

Regarding Amazon, they should not get any tax favoritism and pay for their way with their own money.  But the answer is to keep spending down to lower the need for more taxes.  Taxes hurt the economy. Deficit spending and printing hurt the currency itself. 

PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12185 on: November 04, 2021, 11:05:00 am »

3 trillion deficit is over four times the annual US military budget.  Yes three is a very large amount.  Plus it doesn't include the new spending bills being discussed in Congress that would add another three trillion in spending. 

A trillion here, a trillion there. Pretty soon you're talking about real money.😀

The 3 trillion - or whatever it ends up being - is the 10 year cost, so it's 300 billion a year, less than half the military budget.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12186 on: November 04, 2021, 11:31:22 am »

The 3 trillion - or whatever it ends up being - is the 10 year cost, so it's 300 billion a year, less than half the military budget.
That's true.  Thanks for correcting me.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12187 on: November 04, 2021, 12:30:54 pm »

The 3 trillion - or whatever it ends up being - is the 10 year cost, so it's 300 billion a year, less than half the military budget.

Thanks. So basically, this entire sub-thread was a complete waste of time, again. :)
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12188 on: November 04, 2021, 12:52:03 pm »



Additionally, how much does Canada depend on America defending it …

Canada needs defending FROM America, not BY America.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12189 on: November 04, 2021, 12:55:10 pm »

We're not "losing" 3 trillion dollars.  We're spending it over the annual tax receipts.  Imagine spending 3 trillion over your salary every year. 
;)



I didn't say "losing 3 trillion", I said "You're losing it over 3 trillion".
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12190 on: November 04, 2021, 01:44:55 pm »

I didn't say "losing 3 trillion", I said "You're losing it over 3 trillion".
Oh ok.  Well as Peter pointed out, it's only $300 billion per year.  But that's still $900 additional debt per American or $9,000 over 10 years.. I could buy a top-end Nikon with numerous top-end lenses for that amount of money. It's not chicken feed.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12191 on: November 04, 2021, 01:50:40 pm »

Oh ok.  Well as Peter pointed out, it's only $300 billion per year.  But that's still $900 additional debt per American or $9,000 over 10 years.. I could buy a top-end Nikon with numerous top-end lenses for that amount of money. It's not chicken feed.

Nah, wait for them to announce the Z10, you'll be able to pick up a Z9 for a song.
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PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12192 on: November 04, 2021, 05:09:16 pm »


I know, I know, taxes are bad.


That is unfortunately a common sentiment. I believe the Tea Party, with its mindless anti-tax rhetoric, was one of the worst things to happen in the US recently.
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PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12193 on: November 04, 2021, 05:13:33 pm »

Oh ok.  Well as Peter pointed out, it's only $300 billion per year.  But that's still $900 additional debt per American or $9,000 over 10 years.. I could buy a top-end Nikon with numerous top-end lenses for that amount of money. It's not chicken feed.

The important thing is that it will be money invested in our country that will improve people's lives, increase productivity, help businesses, and prevent future (and larger) expenditures.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12194 on: November 04, 2021, 06:52:59 pm »

Thanks. So basically, this entire sub-thread was a complete waste of time, again. :)

From my observation, I would say that at least one person got what they wanted from the interactions. Like a kid in school that pulls the ponytail of the girl seated in front of them to get a reaction and attention, it's the reaction and attention that are important and the ponytail is just a means to that end. It doesn't really matter if the reaction and attention are positive or negative, the reward sought is independent of any positive accomplishment or simply a waste of time. The reward gained is the same regardless of the outcome.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12195 on: November 04, 2021, 07:29:35 pm »

How did one of the best educated and intellectually sophisticated nations on earth fall under the spell of Hitler? How did a group of modern-day U.S. citizens become convinced that they needed to storm and occupy the Capitol in order to disrupt the certification of an election and Save America? This article and accompanying video may shed some light. For more in depth information on Dietrich Bonhoeffer and his writings, please see the source links at the bottom of the article linked below.

Full article available at: https://sproutsschools.com/bonhoeffers-theory-of-stupidity

Bonhoeffer’s Theory of Stupidity - October 19, 2021 By Jonas Koblin (Excerpts below)

In the darkest chapter of German history, during a time when incited mobs threw stones into the windows of innocent shop owners and women and children were cruelly humiliated in the open; Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a young pastor, began to speak publicly against the atrocities.

After years of trying to change people’s minds, Bonhoeffer came home one evening and his own father had to tell him that two men were waiting in his room to take him away.

In prison, Bonhoeffer began to reflect on how his country of poets and thinkers had turned into a collective of cowards, crooks and criminals. Eventually he concluded that the root of the problem was not malice, but stupidity.

BONHOEFFER’S LETTERS FROM PRISON

In his famous letters from prison, Bonhoeffer argued that stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice, because while “one may protest against evil; it can be exposed and prevented by the use of force, against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here. Reasons fall on deaf ears.”

Facts that contradict a stupid person’s prejudgment simply need not be believed and when they are irrefutable, they are just pushed aside as inconsequential, as incidental. In all this, the stupid person is self-satisfied and, being easily irritated, becomes dangerous by going on the attack.

For that reason, greater caution is called for when dealing with a stupid person than with a malicious one. If we want to know how to get the better of stupidity, we must seek to understand its nature.

This much is certain, stupidity is in essence not an intellectual defect but a moral one. There are human beings who are remarkably agile intellectually yet stupid, and others who are intellectually dull yet anything but stupid.

The impression one gains is not so much that stupidity is a congenital defect but that, under certain circumstances, people are made stupid or rather, they allow this to happen to them.

People who live in solitude manifest this defect less frequently than individuals in groups. And so it would seem that stupidity is perhaps less a psychological than a sociological problem.

It becomes apparent that every strong upsurge of power, be it of a political or religious nature, infects a large part of humankind with stupidity. Almost as if this is a sociological-psychological law where the power of the one needs the stupidity of the other.

The process at work here is not that particular human capacities, such as intellect, suddenly fail. Instead, it seems that under the overwhelming impact of rising power, humans are deprived of their inner independence and, more or less consciously, give up an autonomous position.

The fact that the stupid person is often stubborn must not blind us from the fact that he is not independent. In conversation with him, one virtually feels that one is dealing not at all with him as a person, but with slogans, catchwords, and the like that have taken possession of him.

Only an act of liberation, not instruction, can overcome stupidity. Here we must come to terms with the fact that in most cases a genuine internal liberation becomes possible only when external liberation has preceded it. Until then, we must abandon all attempts to convince the stupid person.

5-minute Summary Video at YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/Bonhoeffer‘s Theory of Stupidity
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chez

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12196 on: November 04, 2021, 08:27:17 pm »

The important thing is that it will be money invested in our country that will improve people's lives, increase productivity, help businesses, and prevent future (and larger) expenditures.

And create a shit load of jobs.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12197 on: November 04, 2021, 11:32:42 pm »

That is unfortunately a common sentiment. I believe the Tea Party, with its mindless anti-tax rhetoric, was one of the worst things to happen in the US recently.
The important thing is that it will be money invested in our country that will improve people's lives, increase productivity, help businesses, and prevent future (and larger) expenditures.
The Tea Party refers back to what happened before the War of Independence in 1776 against the British when American colonists were unhappy with British taxes without representation.  The funny thing is they taxed us less in 1776 than we tax ourselves today.  We'd be better off from a tax standpoint if we were still British citizens.  ;) The fact is taxes and government spending are just too high today.  It's why both parents have to work in most families when one was required a few decades ago.  Inflation and deficit spending has made the rich richer, and the poor poorer.  Government spending is a bad way to allocate investments.  Money is always better off in private hands as governments often misappropriate the money based on political and not economic factors.  These are determined more effectively by a free market and not politicians in Washinton and other capitals. 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2021, 11:40:14 pm by Alan Klein »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12198 on: November 04, 2021, 11:37:15 pm »

How did one of the best educated and intellectually sophisticated nations on earth fall under the spell of Hitler? How did a group of modern-day U.S. citizens become convinced that they needed to storm and occupy the Capitol in order to disrupt the certification of an election and Save America? This article and accompanying video may shed some light. For more in depth information on Dietrich Bonhoeffer and his writings, please see the source links at the bottom of the article linked below.

Full article available at: https://sproutsschools.com/bonhoeffers-theory-of-stupidity

Bonhoeffer’s Theory of Stupidity - October 19, 2021 By Jonas Koblin (Excerpts below)

In the darkest chapter of German history, during a time when incited mobs threw stones into the windows of innocent shop owners and women and children were cruelly humiliated in the open; Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a young pastor, began to speak publicly against the atrocities.

After years of trying to change people’s minds, Bonhoeffer came home one evening and his own father had to tell him that two men were waiting in his room to take him away.

In prison, Bonhoeffer began to reflect on how his country of poets and thinkers had turned into a collective of cowards, crooks and criminals. Eventually he concluded that the root of the problem was not malice, but stupidity.

BONHOEFFER’S LETTERS FROM PRISON

In his famous letters from prison, Bonhoeffer argued that stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice, because while “one may protest against evil; it can be exposed and prevented by the use of force, against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here. Reasons fall on deaf ears.”

Facts that contradict a stupid person’s prejudgment simply need not be believed and when they are irrefutable, they are just pushed aside as inconsequential, as incidental. In all this, the stupid person is self-satisfied and, being easily irritated, becomes dangerous by going on the attack.

For that reason, greater caution is called for when dealing with a stupid person than with a malicious one. If we want to know how to get the better of stupidity, we must seek to understand its nature.

This much is certain, stupidity is in essence not an intellectual defect but a moral one. There are human beings who are remarkably agile intellectually yet stupid, and others who are intellectually dull yet anything but stupid.

The impression one gains is not so much that stupidity is a congenital defect but that, under certain circumstances, people are made stupid or rather, they allow this to happen to them.

People who live in solitude manifest this defect less frequently than individuals in groups. And so it would seem that stupidity is perhaps less a psychological than a sociological problem.

It becomes apparent that every strong upsurge of power, be it of a political or religious nature, infects a large part of humankind with stupidity. Almost as if this is a sociological-psychological law where the power of the one needs the stupidity of the other.

The process at work here is not that particular human capacities, such as intellect, suddenly fail. Instead, it seems that under the overwhelming impact of rising power, humans are deprived of their inner independence and, more or less consciously, give up an autonomous position.

The fact that the stupid person is often stubborn must not blind us from the fact that he is not independent. In conversation with him, one virtually feels that one is dealing not at all with him as a person, but with slogans, catchwords, and the like that have taken possession of him.

Only an act of liberation, not instruction, can overcome stupidity. Here we must come to terms with the fact that in most cases a genuine internal liberation becomes possible only when external liberation has preceded it. Until then, we must abandon all attempts to convince the stupid person.

5-minute Summary Video at YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/Bonhoeffer‘s Theory of Stupidity

Stupid people or not.  You're arguing for the Second Amendment.  An armed citizenry is the last protection against tyranny.  Even smart people can't defend themselves from an armed tyrant or government that abolishes your liberty.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #12199 on: November 05, 2021, 12:52:38 am »

A little too late.  It also seems that one of the people passing phony info about Trump's escapades in a Russian bed was a Clinton ally.  Of course, the whole phony dossier was Clinton's.  The Democratic-controlled and anti-Trump FBI used it to spy on the Trump campaign.  So all the arguments I gave for years about this were true.  The whole impeachment of Trump accusing him of Russian collusion was a political setup to discredit Trump during the campaign and then to undermine his presidency, first by Clinton and then by the whole Democratic party.   


Authorities Arrest Analyst Who Contributed to Steele Dossier
Igor Danchenko, a Russia analyst who worked with Christopher Steele, the author of a dossier of rumors and unproven assertions about Donald J. Trump, was indicted as part of the Durham investigation.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/04/us/politics/igor-danchenko-arrested-steele-dossier.html

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