Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Manoli]

According to a CNN poll this week, 70% of Republicans believe the lie that Biden did not win enough legitimate votes to be president.

Which, in terms of the whole electorate, equates to circa one third (35%). Add a smattering of extremist left wing loons and you’ve got close to half of the electorate who qualify as ‘brain-dead’.

[Robert Roaldi]

I really don't think the right-wing populists can simply be characterized as idiots.  They're angry and resentful at what they consider to be the condescension of "the elites" who weathered first the 2009 recession and then the pandemic with minimal adverse economic consequences, subsequently to preach to them about so-called "cultural issues"—note the hysterical reaction the supercilious "woke" phenomenon unleashes among them—all of which makes them impervious to rational argument.

Their rage may be excessive, but their economic grievances are legitimate and the liberal "elites" certainly have become increasingly self-righteous.  (Personally, I'd put them right up there with the evangelicals.)

The left-wing populists share the economic grievances of their siblings-in-anger on the right, which helped create a perfect political storm that Donald Trump was able to exploit to build a working-class coalition that, added to the traditional conservatives who decided they could stomach Trump's egregious behavior on the theory that a Republican Congress could get him to sign off on federal legislation and regulations that benefited their economic interests, led to his installation in the White House.

The conservatives got what they expected in the tax reduction enacted by the Republican majority in Congress and the roll-back of federal regulations that Trump's political appointees approved.  The populists never received the tangible payoffs Trump promised them, but he provided a four-year channel for their fury, which hasn't abated yet.

Whether President Biden can calm them down with his legislative program and his rhetorical appeals to the "middle class" is very much an open question, but your father was correct: facts and logic rarely are effective in neutralizing strong emotions.

There was a time when "liberals" and "progressives" weren't Wall Street's lapdogs and there was a time when conservative didn't mean alt-right. Not sure what any of these labels really mean anymore. Some call Biden a Marxist, ffs. Since Reagan's trickle down onslaught, the middle class has been hammered, with family income not increasing and oftentimes decreasing since then. And nowadays, more than one person has to work to earn that income and often more than 40 hours per week. So, yes, the middle class should not be too happy about the state of affairs. It was never clear to me what Trump offered up to solve those long-term structural problems, other than "populist" diversions that have achieved cult status. The virus just made it all worse, for some people anyway. I have been meaning to re-watch the movie Network and hear the line "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore."

[Alan Klein]

There was a time when "liberals" and "progressives" weren't Wall Street's lapdogs and there was a time when conservative didn't mean alt-right. Not sure what any of these labels really mean anymore. Some call Biden a Marxist, ffs. Since Reagan's trickle down onslaught, the middle class has been hammered, with family income not increasing and oftentimes decreasing since then. And nowadays, more than one person has to work to earn that income and often more than 40 hours per week. So, yes, the middle class should not be too happy about the state of affairs. It was never clear to me what Trump offered up to solve those long-term structural problems, other than "populist" diversions that have achieved cult status. The virus just made it all worse, for some people anyway. I have been meaning to re-watch the movie Network and hear the line "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore."

Republicans spend and print a lot.  Democrats spend and print a lot more. The rich have figured out that these policies actually make them richer as asset values increase.  Since they hold most of the assets, they get richer at the expense of the middle and lower-income classes.  The rich believe in socialism for the rich, crony capitalism,  having made a load after the 2008 crisis getting bailed out by the Fed.  So the same thing is happening now, only more so.  The Democrats are helping the rich more than the Republicans. Oh sure, there are handouts just to keep the masses quiet.  But most of the money winds up in the rich people's pockets.  Unfortunately, at the end of this Ponzi scheme, everyone is going to get hurt as the dollar's value disappears. 

[Robert Roaldi]

Corporate CEOs not doing their bit in the culture war, https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/551318-exclusive-cruz-rubio-ramp-up-criticisms-of-big-business.

Imagine, corporate leaders who lean "liberal", what is the world coming to?  Remember the good ole days when ITT worked for the CIA and United Fruit fought against communism by backing "right-wing" juntas like god intended?

You know, I heard that some corporations hire gays and non-whites, and some of them provide "progressive" benefits to their employees. By jove, that has to end, you don't want to end up like Sweden or Norway or something.

[Alan Klein]

Corporate CEOs not doing their bit in the culture war, https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/551318-exclusive-cruz-rubio-ramp-up-criticisms-of-big-business.

Imagine, corporate leaders who lean "liberal", what is the world coming to?  Remember the good ole days when ITT worked for the CIA and United Fruit fought against communism by backing "right-wing" juntas like god intended?

You know, I heard that some corporations hire gays and non-whites, and some of them provide "progressive" benefits to their employees. By jove, that has to end, you don't want to end up like Sweden or Norway or something.

Liberalism is not denying free speech you oppose.  Liberals use to be the largest proponents of free expression and the 1st Amendment.  Today, many CEOs of social media pronounce their liberalism while they shut down thought they disagree with.  That's more like Fascism not Liberalism.   There's more free speech on LuLa than Twitter, FB, Youtube, and other media. 

[Peter McLennan]

OK.  Bored with amateur economic prognostications.  Time to move on, IMO.

What should be done about those who refuse COVID vaccinations?

[MattBurt]

OK.  Bored with amateur economic prognostications.  Time to move on, IMO.

What should be done about those who refuse COVID vaccinations?

I guess they are free to make that choice. Thankfully so are the schools and businesses requiring vaccinations.
Maybe they can create their own "virus positive" business culture but I'm hoping there won't be enough momentum to support that and they will either cave and get the shots or just fade into obscurity. 

[JoeKitchen]

Quick, someone find Kevin Bacon and get him to DC asap!

DC has banned dancing at indoor and outdoor wedding receptions

I wish I could say this is a satire, but it is not. 


PS
Although I have to admit disappointment in my party.  An impromptu dance contest in the middle of the street would be the perfect protest to this.  Either the mayor does nothing or she makes an ass of herself having people arrested for dancing, a win-win politically speaking.  But alas, to my great detrament, creativity is lacking on my side, perfectly portrayed by the crazy push to return to neo-classical and state architecture. 

[JoeKitchen]

Which, in terms of the whole electorate, equates to circa one third (35%). Add a smattering of extremist left wing loons and you’ve got close to half of the electorate who qualify as ‘brain-dead’.

And if you go back and look at the polling of Dems after the 2016 election, you will find very similar numbers. 

[Manoli]

And if you go back and look at the polling of Dems after the 2016 election, you will find very similar numbers. 

If you’d told me the CNN poll had to be ‘wrong’ , I’d have been inclined, initially, to agree with you. Instead you equate incontrovertible Soviet interference (germane NOT only to the USA) to Trump's blatant lies debunked and refuted in over 350 failed law suits.

Nah!

There was something severely wrong with that election (2016) we just conducted, and not just the outcome. It’s becoming pretty evident that Russia was actively intending and acting to subvert our principal exercise in democracy by doing precisely what the original intent of Watergate was: stealing secrets from the Democratic Party and using them to undermine the party’s campaign.

[JoeKitchen]

If you’d told me the CNN poll had to be ‘wrong’ , I’d have been inclined, initially, to agree with you. Instead you equate incontrovertible Soviet interference (germane NOT only to the USA) to Trump's blatant lies debunked and refuted in over 350 failed law suits.

Nah!

LOL, Soviet interference?

First, there are no Soviets anymore.  I know you may think this is a rhetorical issue, but it is not.  The 1980s are calling and they want their policy back.  Having good relations with Russia is key to counteracting China.  We need to get out of this USA vs USSR mentality.  Russia is more like us right now then China. 

Second, this was a thoroughly debunked claim, and the small amount of ads bought by Russia was not the reason Trump won.  Not by a long shot. 

Stop making an ass of yourself.  Grow up, and accept the reality.  A large portion of the country disagrees with your side, portrayed by Biden's not so great 100 day polling.  Sure, better then Trump, but abysmal compared to all other presidents for the last 100 years.  The bar Biden set for himself in his first 100 days is almost as bad. 

Below is a microcosm of things to come in 2022.  In a district that voted for Biden, they voted out school board members pushing critical race theory, something Biden is pushing hard himself, by a 70-30 margin.  This is why Trump won, because he spoke to the rotten culture the Dems push, which Biden is doubling down on. 

Dallas-area critical race theory opponents win big in school board election

Biden may be a detour, but progressivism is dead, the progressives just dont know it yet.  Ideologies only last for a 80 to 100 years stint, and we are at the tail end of progressive marxism politics.  I dont think Biden is going to get anything else passed.  His party is already abandoning him, and Tim Scott's speech resonated much further and wider then the media wants to admit. 

[Manoli]

It would help if you read my post and responded to what I wrote rather than what you think I wrote.

Second, this was a thoroughly debunked claim, and the small amount of ads bought by Russia was not the reason Trump won.  Not by a long shot. 

Nowhere did I suggest that this was otherwise. I called you out on your claim that that was an ingrained belief of the Democrats at the time and so reflected in the polls. The quote, correctly, repeats what is known and not just in the USA. NO mention of it being the CAUSE, just an attempt to subvert the democratic process.

My post was that Trump did not win in 2016 because of Soviet interference any more than he lost the 2020 election because of the so called ‘theft’.  Over 350 failed lawsuits are ample proof.

If 70% of Republicans still believe in the 'theft' then that’s testimony enough to their gullibility.

ps
Be careful of calling other people ‘fools’ - as the saying goes, ’it takes one to recognise one’.

[James Clark]

Quick, someone find Kevin Bacon and get him to DC asap!

DC has banned dancing at indoor and outdoor wedding receptions

I wish I could say this is a satire, but it is not. 


PS
Although I have to admit disappointment in my party.  An impromptu dance contest in the middle of the street would be the perfect protest to this.  Either the mayor does nothing or she makes an ass of herself having people arrested for dancing, a win-win politically speaking.  But alas, to my great detrament, creativity is lacking on my side, perfectly portrayed by the crazy push to return to neo-classical and state architecture.

Good Lord.  We agree on something.  A great era of enlightenment is bestowed upon us all.

[James Clark]

Biden may be a detour, but progressivism is dead, the progressives just dont know it yet.  Ideologies only last for a 80 to 100 years stint, and we are at the tail end of progressive marxism politics.  I dont think Biden is going to get anything else passed.  His party is already abandoning him, and Tim Scott's speech resonated much further and wider then the media wants to admit.

You have a unique ability to look at self-reinforcing, short focus data points and draw grossly wrong conclusions.  There's a point to be made that *structurally* it will be harder to pass progressive policies, but that's due in large part to conservative legislators having disproportionate influence on the lawmaking process.  Consistently, Democrats win voter majorities both locally and nationally, and consistently, Democratic policies get well over 50% approval ratings when polled in neutral terms. Additionally, people under 45 still lean left by significant margins, and they've got a lot longer to keep voting than the geezers that embrace Trumpism do.  Does it matter?  From the standpoint of actual law being made, maybe not, but if you have a minority legislating against the will of the greater population, something will give eventually.

[degrub]

Yep, just look at what is going on in Columbia when they tried to raise taxes on the poor and middle classes.

[Alan Klein]

You have a unique ability to look at self-reinforcing, short focus data points and draw grossly wrong conclusions.  There's a point to be made that *structurally* it will be harder to pass progressive policies, but that's due in large part to conservative legislators having disproportionate influence on the lawmaking process.  Consistently, Democrats win voter majorities both locally and nationally, and consistently, Democratic policies get well over 50% approval ratings when polled in neutral terms. Additionally, people under 45 still lean left by significant margins, and they've got a lot longer to keep voting than the geezers that embrace Trumpism do.  Does it matter?  From the standpoint of actual law being made, maybe not, but if you have a minority legislating against the will of the greater population, something will give eventually.

Who wouldn't approve of getting extra stimulus and free stuff from the government?  The Democrats are better at that. Republicans are trying to catch up but it's just not in them.  They're acting like Democrat-lite. They offer $1000 while the Dems offer $2000.  So who do you think gets the vote? 

Part of the problem is the Soviets are gone and younger people in particular look at socialism as something rather benign.  Add to that a fiat currency, and it seems like it's easy to print your way to prosperity.  In the end, it all winds up like Venezuela, Cuba, and the other 1984 countries.

[James Clark]

Who wouldn't approve of getting extra stimulus and free stuff from the government?  The Democrats are better at that. Republicans are trying to catch up but it's just not in them.  They're acting like Democrat-lite. They offer $1000 while the Dems offer $2000.  So who do you think gets the vote? 

Part of the problem is the Soviets are gone and younger people in particular look at socialism as something rather benign.  Add to that a fiat currency, and it seems like it's easy to print your way to prosperity.  In the end, it all winds up like Venezuela, Cuba, and the other 1984 countries.

I don't think that a decent national health care plan is the first step to the gulags   Pretty much every other civilized nation has managed to get there without resorting to totalitarian oppression.

[Alan Klein]

I don't think that a decent national health care plan is the first step to the gulags   Pretty much every other civilized nation has managed to get there without resorting to totalitarian oppression.

First off, half the medical costs of the country are paid already by the government. The problem is the Democrats want to add another 6 trillion of printing and taxes for everything and they're not done with that.  They're going to break the bank and destroy the value of the dollar.  Other countries aren't policeman to the world.  Other countries don't have 30 trillion in debt.  Other countries aren't the largest debtor nation in the world when we were the largest creditor nation 50 years ago.   

[Robert Roaldi]

First off, half the medical costs of the country are paid already by the government. The problem is the Democrats want to add another 6 trillion of printing and taxes for everything and they're not done with that.  They're going to break the bank and destroy the value of the dollar.  Other countries aren't policeman to the world.  Other countries don't have 30 trillion in debt.  Other countries aren't the largest debtor nation in the world when we were the largest creditor nation 50 years ago.

Sounds like a litany of insurmountable problems. Maybe you need to change the way you do things, because whatever you're doing now doesn't seem to be working well.

Here's just one thing. Since about 1980, middle class income has remained flat or slightly decreased. Two people in each household have to work now, where only one did before, and work has become increasingly precarious, people can't count on it for the long term. Started happening in early 1980s and "trickle-down" that apparently didn't. Ignoring all the other problems that you often talk about, what would you do about the wage stagnation and simultaneous huge increase in household debt (debt other than mortgage)? Please remember that Americans already work more hours than in other western countries, have less vacation, and have fewer public social benefits so there's not a lot of wiggle room there. What's the way out of that? Or do you not think that this is a problem.

[Alan Klein]

Sounds like a litany of insurmountable problems. Maybe you need to change the way you do things, because whatever you're doing now doesn't seem to be working well.

Here's just one thing. Since about 1980, middle class income has remained flat or slightly decreased. Two people in each household have to work now, where only one did before, and work has become increasingly precarious, people can't count on it for the long term. Started happening in early 1980s and "trickle-down" that apparently didn't. Ignoring all the other problems that you often talk about, what would you do about the wage stagnation and simultaneous huge increase in household debt (debt other than mortgage)? Please remember that Americans already work more hours than in other western countries, have less vacation, and have fewer public social benefits so there's not a lot of wiggle room there. What's the way out of that? Or do you not think that this is a problem.

Inlfation due to going off the gold standard in 1971 and taxes have caused much of this.  The Great Society and Vietnam costs created a need for more financing.  So we printed more.  Needed two working adults to keep pace. Stagflation in the 70's and early 80's will be repeated soon.    It's all getting worse.  We did the same thing in the 2000s with 9-11, Afghanistan, Iraq with huge war costs. Bin Laden damaged us more than we think.  Covid was another huge cost.  When inflation hits again this year, lower and middle-income groups will bear the brunt of it.  While direct taxes might not seem to go up, the increases for the cost of everything will be a "hidden" tax.   There's no escaping it.