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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 1343681 times)

LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6160 on: January 23, 2021, 01:00:51 pm »

We used to have municipal ownership of bus services in the UK. They were generally better run & cheaper than the privatised versions we have now. Sometimes, people take pride in running a service for the public rather than simply making profits.

Fort Lauderdale has some free trolleys running along the Ocean Boulevard.
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6161 on: January 23, 2021, 01:40:57 pm »

The TVA provides electricity for 6 sparsely populated counties in the far west of the state, so their low rates have no real effect on statewide rates. And they are not subsidized by taxpayer dollars at all, so you are not paying for squat.

Yeah, a couple of months ago when he heard that my electric rates were lower than his, and some of my electricity is provided by TVA, he about lost it.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2021, 02:18:21 pm by faberryman »
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6162 on: January 23, 2021, 02:24:28 pm »

The TVA (Tennessee Valley Authority) provides much of your state of North Carolina's electricity subsidized by the US government who paid to build the plants. That's one of the reasons your electricity is so cheap. I'm paying for your electricity.

The TVA provides electricity for 6 sparsely populated counties in the far west of the state, so their low rates have no real effect on statewide rates. And they are not subsidized by taxpayer dollars at all, so you are not paying for squat.

Duke Energy, headquartered in North Carolina, provides the overwhelming majority of electricity there. Unfortunately, they have a bad habit of allowing massive amounts of coal ash from their plants to find its way into waterways which led to the company leading guilty to criminal negligence.

https://energynews.us/2020/02/24/end-duke-energys-monopoly-in-north-carolina-its-complicated

https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2020/01/duke-energy-settlement-country-largest-coal-ash-cleanup-north-carolina

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Dan_River_coal_ash_spill

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/duke-energy-agrees-to-remove-coal-ash-in-north-carolina
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6163 on: January 23, 2021, 02:52:25 pm »

We used to have municipal ownership of bus services in the UK. They were generally better run & cheaper than the privatised versions we have now. Sometimes, people take pride in running a service for the public rather than simply making profits.
Apparently not in Communist ruled Cuba.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6164 on: January 23, 2021, 03:10:20 pm »

Okay, so not 70% of the days, but 70+% of the time wind and solar farms are not producing any energy, period.  Last I looked into this, the solar farms in AZ and NV had the best records for producing electricity but only did so 33% of the time.  Also, the point when things go awry is between 8% to 10% capacity, although it could be as high as 12% depending on the other dynamics of the area.

Now, insofar as comparing prices, which you often reference or allude to, it is important to remember wind and solar energy prices have nothing to do with the cost of production, what most people think, nor do any other sources.  The prices are just like the price of oil; the cost of production is irrelevant to the price that the market is willing to pay.  The market is what dictates the price and is mainly dependent on when that source of energy is put on the market, with "when" being very important. 

Wind and solar produce most during non-peak hours, when demand and price are low, and little during peak hours, when demand and price are high.  This means when determining the average price of this electricity, most of the data is coming from the cheaper times of day and is not weighted evenly throughout the day.  However, the base load sources (oil, gas, coal, nuclear) that produce energy on demand produce nearly the entire day, making the average price of electricity from these sources evenly weighted throughout the day.  Because of this, you can not make a comparison of the price of wind/solar to anything else since it will be heavily distorted and give you a false sense that wind/solar is cheaper. 

On top of that, a 2nd phenomenon of wind/solar makes the comparison even more distorted, that being you cant turn them off.  If a wind/solar farm is producing energy, it will put it into the grid whether you want it or not, which could lead to an over supply if your capacity is large enough.  If this happens, off-peak prices will crash causing the average price of wind/solar to drop even more.  However, since wind/solar produce very little during peak hours, average prices of other sources will remain consistent, perhaps a slight drop, causing any comparison to be more unfair and misleading. 

Now this is not necessarily a bad thing, so long as you are making enough money to cover your costs, but what tends to happen here is people fall into a trap.  They falsely assume wind/solar is cheaper to produce based on the prices being charge, which have nothing to do with production, and start increasing their reliance on wind/solar.  As they get into the 8% to 12% range of total energy coming from wind/solar, they will eventually start having supply shortages during peak hours since their required investment in base load sources gets, partially, diverted.  This then causes the overall price of electricity to go up, but is only reflected in those sources producing at peak time.  So the price of base load power goes up, while off-peak prices continue to crash, making wind/solar falsely look even more favorable.  Due to this, if you do not recognize what is happening, people start to invest more in wind/solar, but since wind/solar is the source of the issue, they make the problem worse unknowingly. 

This is where Germany and CA are currently at.  18.1% and ~25% of CA and Germany, respectively, lives in energy poverty.  Their carbon footprint is just as abysmal too.  It is all caused by too heavy a reliance on wind and solar. 

Unfortunately I fear this is all coming soon to a place near you since Biden appears ready, willing, able and excited to jump in the same trap. 

Insofar as batteries, did you miss my part about energy conversions loosing power?  About 20% to 40% of power is lost when converting it into battery storage and then taking it out.  This make batteries too inefficient to be worth wild, not to mention the amount of batteries you would need would be huge.  I think CA has a total 6 minutes worth of battery power, and that includes every single battery in the state, all of them. 

Although smart grids are important, typically what they best do is transfer power to other locales when there is an excess in one but a supply shortage in another.  (It is bad to have the grid overcharged, so an excess of power needs to go somewhere.)  This may seem beneficial for the excess energy produced by wind/solar at off-peak times, which is when they tend to produce power.  The issue though is the price of electricity is already low and if you have too many wind/solar sources, the excess in electricity tends to crash prices at this time, which I mentioned before, to a point where the market price is often below the cost of production.  So you lose money; this is a known problem for states/countries that have heavily invested in wind/solar already. 
The main issue of cost is that you have to have a full 100% back up to meet the demand on the hottest day of the year.  That's when air conditioners are being used.  It requires the most electricity output in demand.  If the wind isn't blowing on that hot afternoon in July, the grid relies on the regular generators.  So you have to pay for complete backup for the entire system.  You can't buy it from elsewhere because probably, that area is just as hot.  That backup requires people and resources to build, man, and maintain.  This is why green energy isn't cheap.  You're paying for two sources. The charges quoted for green don't include the backup plant.

Con Ed, who handles NYC, charges a demand charge in addition to KWH usage charges for commercial accounts like office buildings, not for residential homes or apartments.  So let's say a 60 story high-rise office building can consume 2000KW demand on the hottest day of the year with all the AC's working.  Con Ed monitors their meters minute by minute.  There is a separate demand charge for the maximum used every month even if it's only for 30 minutes.  That's separate from the KWH consumption charge for total usage.  The justification for demand charges from then utility is that they have to build and maintain large enough plants to handle the worse case situation, the hottest minute on the hottest day of the year.  So the total demand for the whole city is required.  Well, it's the same with green energy.  The utility has to provide the maximum for the worse minute of the year even if the rest of the year they run at less than 70%.  They can't count on the wind to be there at the worse time.  NY Gov Cuomo proudly announced a year ago or so, NYS is buying billions of dollars of offshore wind.  what he didn't mention, is that at the sale time, they going to match the demand with new traditional fossil fuel plants as a backup.  The cost for those plants will be buried in surcharges on everyone's utility bill but not flagged as to the purpose of the surcharge.  It's all a Ponzi scheme.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2021, 03:14:03 pm by Alan Klein »
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6165 on: January 23, 2021, 03:16:33 pm »

The main issue of cost is that you have to have a full 100% back up to meet the demand on the hottest day of the year.  That's when air conditioners are being used.  It requires the most electricity output in demand.  If the wind isn't blowing on that hot afternoon in July, the grid relies on the regular generators.  So you have to pay for complete backup for the entire system.  You can't buy it from elsewhere because probably, that area is just as hot.  That backup requires people and resources to build, man, and maintain.  This is why green energy isn't cheap.  You're paying for two sources. The charges quoted for green don't include the backup plant.

Con Ed, who handles NYC, charges a demand charge in addition to KWH usage charges for commercial accounts like office buildings, not for residential homes or apartments.  So let's say a 60 story high-rise office building can consume 2000KW demand on the hottest day of the year with all the AC's working.  Con Ed monitors their meters minute by minute.  There is a separate demand charge for the maximum used every month even if it's only for 30 minutes.  That's separate from the KWH consumption charge for total usage.  The justification for demand charges from then utility is that they have to build and maintain large enough plants to handle the worse case situation, the hottest minute on the hottest day of the year.  So the total demand for the whole city is required.  Well, it's the same with green energy.  The utility has to provide the maximum for the worse minute of the year even if the rest of the year they run at less than 70%.  They can't count on the wind to be there at the worse time.  NY Gov Cuomo proudly announced a year ago or so, NYS is buying billions of dollars of offshore wind.  what he didn't mention, is that at the sale time, they going to match the demand with new traditional fossil fuel plants as a backup.  The cost for those plants will be buried in surcharges on everyone's utility bill but not flagged as to the purpose of the surcharge.  It's all a Ponzi scheme.

How is what you described a Ponzi scheme?

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/ponzischeme.asp

Is a hybrid car a Ponzi scheme?

You argument only addresses the issue of capital costs. What about operating costs?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2021, 03:37:36 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6166 on: January 23, 2021, 03:23:27 pm »

You ever travel in a Cuban bus? Thought so! I traveled basically the length of Cuba by bus and yes they don't have air conditioning, but overall they are very comfortable...basically the same as North American buses.

Alan, you have such a slanted view of anything communist based on the USA propoganda you are fed by your government. You should really travel the world and see how people live and then compare to your own life. You just might be surprised with what you see.
Apparently, Cuban horse-drawn buses don't have air conditioning either.  :)

So you're comparing Cuban buses without air conditioning with American buses with it.  Are you serious? Who'd take a bus trip in Florida without A/C?  Cuba isn't any cooler.

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6167 on: January 23, 2021, 03:45:48 pm »

Apparently, Cuban horse-drawn buses don't have air conditioning either.  :)

So you're comparing Cuban buses without air conditioning with American buses with it.  Are you serious? Who'd take a bus trip in Florida without A/C?  Cuba isn't any cooler.

So now the argument changes from because Cubans are Communists they cheat and don't pay the nickel bus fare, to American buses are better because they have air conditioning. That move requires more than one logical fallacy not to mention a couple of WTF comments.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 12:36:25 pm by faberryman »
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chez

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6168 on: January 23, 2021, 03:49:15 pm »

Apparently, Cuban horse-drawn buses don't have air conditioning either.  :)

So you're comparing Cuban buses without air conditioning with American buses with it.  Are you serious? Who'd take a bus trip in Florida without A/C?  Cuba isn't any cooler.

I've traveled basically the entire length of Cuba by bus. With windows open it was just fine. I'm guessing you have also not traveled to SEA where many buses also have no air conditioning and many taxis are tuktuk's that are human powered. Love going down the crowded humid muggy streets in an open tuktuk...really gives you an appreciation of the people...much more so than sitting in a car with the air conditioner on full blast.

Alan, you definitely need to get out of your very narrow view of the world that has been painted for you by your government. You are probably the type that downgrade an Airbnb property in Hawaii because there were lizards on the lanai.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6169 on: January 23, 2021, 03:56:29 pm »

I've traveled basically the entire length of Cuba by bus. With windows open it was just fine. I'm guessing you have also not traveled to SEA where many buses also have no air conditioning and many taxis are tuktuk's that are human powered. Love going down the crowded humid muggy streets in an open tuktuk...really gives you an appreciation of the people...much more so than sitting in a car with the air conditioner on full blast.

Alan, you definitely need to get out of your very narrow view of the world that has been painted for you by your government. You are probably the type that downgrade an Airbnb property in Hawaii because there were lizards on the lanai.
I'm sure those passengers would have selected an AC bus if they could.

Chris Kern

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6170 on: January 23, 2021, 04:01:34 pm »

Alan, you have such a slanted view of anything communist based on the USA propoganda you are fed by your government.

What government "propaganda" are you referring to?  Political ideology, possibly reinforced by right-wing news or social media, would be a more plausible explanation for the bias you believe you detect.  Also note that Alan tends to conflate socialism, social democracy, and (revolutionary) communism.

chez

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6171 on: January 23, 2021, 04:15:23 pm »

I'm sure those passengers would have selected an AC bus if they could.

Yes...and I'm sure they would have rather driven their own Farrari...but the point is they were ok riding on the bus without air conditioning...as was I.

You seem to be trying to make the statement that capatilism is better than communism because buses have air conditioning. What I'm saying is every Cuban can ride a bus to wherever they want...can you say the same about every American?
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6172 on: January 23, 2021, 04:16:06 pm »

Also note that Alan tends to conflate socialism, social democracy, and (revolutionary) communism.

And antifa, radicals, liberals, and Democrats, yet he doesn't conflate authoritarians, totalitarians, fascists, dictators, and Republicans. Interesting. Conflation on the left and separation on the right.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6173 on: January 23, 2021, 04:23:53 pm »

Has Biden been golfing yet?

A friend mentioned listening to a White House press conference and it wasn't crazy-ass bonkers for a change. I bet some of you guys forgot what that was like.

I have read that Diet Coke button story in a couple of places now. You mean it wasn't just some joke?

As an aside, why does it seem to me that people who drink diet soft drinks always seem to gain weight? Is it just my imagination.
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6174 on: January 23, 2021, 04:26:35 pm »

I'm sure those passengers would have selected an AC bus if they could.

Air conditioning on buses is so bourgeois.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2021, 05:42:39 pm by faberryman »
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Chris Kern

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6175 on: January 23, 2021, 04:27:45 pm »

Also note that Alan tends to conflate socialism, social democracy, and (revolutionary) communism.

And antifa, radicals, liberals, and Democrats, yet he doesn't conflate authoritarians, totalitarians, fascists, dictators, and Republicans. Interesting. Conflation on the left and separation on the right.

Same principle as Eskimos having so many different words for snow, I suspect.

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6176 on: January 23, 2021, 04:53:16 pm »

Has Biden been golfing yet?

You can follow Biden's golfing adventures here:

https://presidentialgolftracker.com/2020/06/30/biden-vs-trump-golfing-habits-and-controversy/

A friend mentioned listening to a White House press conference and it wasn't crazy-ass bonkers for a change. I bet some of you guys forgot what that was like.

The press secretary sounded intelligent too. And way less make-up. She looked like she was going to a press conference instead of the prom. That's a good sign.

I have read that Diet Coke button story in a couple of places now. You mean it wasn't just some joke?

Nope.

As an aside, why does it seem to me that people who drink diet soft drinks always seem to gain weight? Is it just my imagination.

Here is something on the subject from WebMD:

https://www.webmd.com/diet/features/diet-sodas-and-weight-gain-not-so-fast#1

Isn't it amazing what you can learn on a photography forum? I guess photographers have to watch their waistlines too.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 12:42:05 pm by faberryman »
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PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6177 on: January 23, 2021, 05:11:29 pm »


As an aside, why does it seem to me that people who drink diet soft drinks always seem to gain weight? Is it just my imagination.

Perhaps because having a diet coke makes them feel it's OK to have that double bacon-burger and large fries?
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6178 on: January 23, 2021, 05:49:49 pm »

You can follow Biden's golfing adventures here:

https://presidentialgolftracker.com/2020/06/30/biden-vs-trump-golfing-habits-and-controversy/


I was just wisecracking, didn't think it was serious enough for people to track it. My mistake.
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PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6179 on: January 23, 2021, 06:01:21 pm »

American students owe around $1.5 trillion dollars in tuition loans.  That's the reason for the difference.  This is all going to end soon when we go broke.

A large proportion of this debt is due to for-profit "colleges" making fake or exaggerated promises to students and then carefully shepherding them thru the loan application process. And the student gets a worthless degree but owes tens of thousands. And the schools--such as ITT, Corinthian, and need I mention Trump U, make big bucks and the students have no career and are screwed. The Feds were, under Obama, making progress in regulating this egregious behavior but then Trump's lickspittle Betsy DeVos reversed a lot of restrictions so the for-profit colleges could get back to work screwing the students. This is your precious "free enterprise" at work.
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