Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[jeremyrh]

My income tax from press photographer pension is 28%, and I pay it happily:

"Socialism" seems to work! (Except that we do not call it that).

Paying high taxes to support people to stay home during Covid is one approach to keeping the economy going. Alan and Joe prefer to pay with the lives of the old and weak.

[TechTalk]

California has the highest state income tax of all 50 states. Somewhere around 13 percent.

California has a progressive income tax. The rate is 9.3% for single filers with income (after deductions) of $58,635 to $299,508 or married with income of $117,269 to $599,016. The maximum rate is only applied to that portion of annual income over $1 million dollars. The state has one of the lowest property tax rates in the country, so it relies heavily on income tax and places the higher rates on the highest earners.

Half the revenue the state gets is fron [from] rich people who are leaving the state in droves.

If rich people are leaving in "droves", how is it that it isn't reflected in reduced income tax revenue? The pandemic reduced tax revenue from things like travel and tourism and caused higher unemployment—leaving the state more reliant on tax revenue from the income of wealthy residents and yet still ended the year with a surplus.

Maybe you could be less vague on what you mean by "droves". What is the net difference between millionaires leaving the state and ones moving to the state?

[Alan Klein]

California has a progressive income tax. The rate is 9.3% for single filers with income (after deductions) of $58,635 to $299,508 or married with income of $117,269 to $599,016. The maximum rate is only applied to that portion of annual income over $1 million dollars. The state has one of the lowest property tax rates in the country, so it relies heavily on income tax and places the higher rates on the highest earners.

If rich people are leaving in "droves", how is it that it isn't reflected in reduced income tax revenue? The pandemic reduced tax revenue from things like travel and tourism and caused higher unemployment—leaving the state more reliant on tax revenue from the income of wealthy residents and yet still ended the year with a surplus.

Maybe you could be less vague on what you mean by "droves". What is the net difference between millionaires leaving the state and ones moving to the state?

  I don't believe the figures they're peddling. Even if true, it's a temporary thing.  Every state has problems with high taxes causing people to leave to lower tax states.  Interestingly, this article says affordable housing is actually more important than high taxes in California.  Workers can't afford to live there. To write off LA and San Diego, which is where we visited, is to write off southern California.  I can't imagine Silicon Valley is any cheaper up north by San Francisco.
https://www.kqed.org/news/11851866/very-troubling-what-the-departure-of-some-big-tech-firms-means-for-californias-business-horizon

As a New Yorker all my life except for the last seven years when I lived in NJ, high taxes are a bane.  Even current Democrat NJ Governor Cuomo doesn't want to raise taxes on the rich.  He knows many will abandoned NY for no-income-tax Florida as they have been doing. WIth work-at-home Zoom jobs, commercial real-estate, which pays high property taxes and supports the state, will shrink as companies move to other states.  It could decimate my home town of NYC.

Frankly, we're not rich, but we would have retired in Florida for the better weather and no taxes had it not been that my wife's mother still lives in the north.  So we settled in NJ and moved her there too.  Our property taxes have gone up 25% in these seven years in NJ.  More people leave NJ than more in.  Gasoline in NJ used to be among the cheapest in the country and we're one of the few states where they still pump gas for you, by law.  We weren't here two years when they added gas taxes and now we're one of the highest.  I think they were waiting for us to move here. 

One of the things Trump did that made it worse, is his tax code eliminated Federal tax deductions on all of your property taxes.  I think you can only write of $10,000.  So those people who pay 20K, 30K, and more, get a bigger tax bill in high property tax states like NJ and NY. 

[Alan Klein]

Paying high taxes to support people to stay home during Covid is one approach to keeping the economy going. Alan and Joe prefer to pay with the lives of the old and weak.

You can't keep an economy going by handing out money.  Most of the money has not gone to the poor and out-of-work, in any case.  They've underwritten assets mainly owned by the rich.  It's the rich who are getting richer with rising stock markets and real estate prices.  There's a huge wealth transfer going on going to the rich. The rest are getting crumbs to shut them up.  Based on your comments, that seems to be working. 

[jeremyrh]

We weren't here two years when they added gas taxes and now we're one of the highest.  I think they were waiting for us to move here. 

You do seem to be the unluckiest person in the world, Alan.  I'd take care when crossing roads, or visiting the lions at the zoo if I were you.

[Alan Klein]

You do seem to be the unluckiest person in the world, Alan.  I'd take care when crossing roads, or visiting the lions at the zoo if I were you.

We had a leak in the bathroom sink yesterday.  The plumber came over with his helper, both wearing masks,  They took their boots off before traipsing to their work. Very cleanly done.  But my wife walked around the whole house for ten minutes after they left spritzing the air with an antiseptic type spray.  I think that was something Trump recommended. 

[Petrus]

There's a huge wealth transfer going on going to the rich. The rest are getting crumbs to shut them up.

Wealth is only going to the rich and smart, rich and dumb are not selling their ballon stocks before the big burst (think Tesla, Bitcoin etc.).

[Alan Klein]

Wealth is only going to the rich and smart, rich and dumb are not selling their ballon stocks before the big burst (think Tesla, Bitcoin etc.).

I think you're right about that.  But if you're worth two billion and lose half your wealth, you still got one billion.  If you had a job and now have none, well...

[jeremyrh]

  There's a huge wealth transfer going on going to the rich. The rest are getting crumbs to shut them up.  Based on your comments, that seems to be working.

There's certainly a load of public money being funnelled into the pockets of friends of the Tory party, whose incompetence has led to the gross mismanagement of the pandemic.  I could imagine that something similar has happened in the US, but a priori I'd suspect that the process in Finland is more equitable.

[Alan Klein]

There's certainly a load of public money being funnelled into the pockets of friends of the Tory party, whose incompetence has led to the gross mismanagement of the pandemic.  I could imagine that something similar has happened in the US, but a priori I'd suspect that the process in Finland is more equitable.

But neither of us are Finnish.

[Alan Klein]

The biggest problem with Covid vaccine distribution that I see here in the US is that the states are screwing it up.  In NY they're wasting shots already and throwing them in the garbage.  Here in New Jersey, the left-hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. The state government is doing one thing, and the counties are doing it differently.  Then there are private groups that are doing it differently still.  My wife and I signed up for details from the NJ State clearinghouse.  When my wife called them, they said we'd be better off checking with our local county government to see what they're doing.  So why did the state encourage people to sign up with them if they're going to tell you to go elsewhere for current news?  Typical government incompetence.  Bureaucrats getting paid to do nothing.

[jeremyrh]

But neither of us are Finnish.

No, I was referring to Petrus, who I think is (?)  Regardless, supporting people to not mix is a key factor in fighting the virus.

[Robert Roaldi]

The rot goes deep, https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/13/republican-legislatures-trump-conspiracy-458507. A lot of people seem to be living in fantasyland.

At the same time, more and more Republicans are signing on to impeach, https://thehill.com/homenews/house/533965-growing-number-of-gop-lawmakers-say-they-support-impeachment. Now that Trump is on the outs, this is not as courageous as it might have been.

And the GOP's internecine strife is getting worse, https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/12/liz-cheney-kevin-mccarthy-rift-busts-open-458614. I wonder why they can't all get along.

[Jim Pascoe]

  I don't believe the figures they're peddling. Even if true, it's a temporary thing.  Every state has problems with high taxes causing people to leave to lower tax states.  Interestingly, this article says affordable housing is actually more important than high taxes in California.  Workers can't afford to live there. To write off LA and San Diego, which is where we visited, is to write off southern California.  I can't imagine Silicon Valley is any cheaper up north by San Francisco.
https://www.kqed.org/news/11851866/very-troubling-what-the-departure-of-some-big-tech-firms-means-for-californias-business-horizon

As a New Yorker all my life except for the last seven years when I lived in NJ, high taxes are a bane.  Even current Democrat NJ Governor Cuomo doesn't want to raise taxes on the rich.  He knows many will abandoned NY for no-income-tax Florida as they have been doing. WIth work-at-home Zoom jobs, commercial real-estate, which pays high property taxes and supports the state, will shrink as companies move to other states.  It could decimate my home town of NYC.

Frankly, we're not rich, but we would have retired in Florida for the better weather and no taxes had it not been that my wife's mother still lives in the north.  So we settled in NJ and moved her there too.  Our property taxes have gone up 25% in these seven years in NJ.  More people leave NJ than more in.  Gasoline in NJ used to be among the cheapest in the country and we're one of the few states where they still pump gas for you, by law.  We weren't here two years when they added gas taxes and now we're one of the highest.  I think they were waiting for us to move here. 

One of the things Trump did that made it worse, is his tax code eliminated Federal tax deductions on all of your property taxes.  I think you can only write of $10,000.  So those people who pay 20K, 30K, and more, get a bigger tax bill in high property tax states like NJ and NY.

They say there are two certainties in life - Death and Taxation.  I wouldn't worry too much Alan.  My grandmother used to say about wealthy people - "They cannot take it with them....."  You will be relieved of all money worries soon enough - just try to stay well and happy in the meantime.  But then grandma had the experience of living through war, followed by the depression, followed by another war.

Jim

[TechTalk]

  I don't believe the figures they're peddling.

Which figures that who's peddling? Since you're being vague, I'll assume that you mean California's tax revenues for 2020 as the income tax rates that I sited are in plain view for anyone to see.

If that's what you're referring to, then I'm not surprised you don't believe their numbers and I can tell you why you don't. I can also tell you why their numbers are right and why California was surprised that their revenue exceeded their estimates from earlier in the year. They anticipated having to dip into the funds that Governor Brown had saved from the previous surplus years to cover a recession, but instead finished with a surplus.

I'll start with why you don't believe the state is accurately and faithfully complying with the laws that require an accurate accounting of their finances. You're unwilling to believe anything that doesn't fit your predigested and preconceived notions of heroes and villains in the world. Anything that doesn't fit your extremely narrow ideological view of the world is rejected and just bounces off. You'd prefer to believe that the Democratic elected officials that head the several agencies and departments which collect and report financial data are conspiring to violate the law and report false data—rather than accept that a state run by Democrats could manage their finances reasonably well, bring in surpluses instead of deficits, and survive a pandemic and recession year in good financial condition.

California is dominated by Democrats in their state government and therefore must be a failing state in your view. That's why you make statements lacking any evidence that they're broke. That's why you make evidence free assertions that the state is losing their tax base due to the loss of wealthy residents fleeing in "droves".  You don't need evidence to form a point of view, it's predetermined before you see any evidence. Any evidence to the contrary must be a lie or ignored. If you can't avoid contrary evidence, you bob and weave like a boxer on defense. You distract, minimize, and divert with rambling responses that avoid questions and evidence you'd prefer not to address. You have an arsenal of tools that you use to protect your ideological viewpoint and to avoid anything that conflicts with it.

I asked you for some evidence of how many wealthy residents California is losing and gaining that support their income tax base. Your rambling dodge of a response... You discuss housing costs; property taxes; NewYork, New Jersey and Florida; Governor Cuomo; gasoline cost; Trump; Zoom jobs; your residential history; and who pumps your gas. Absolutely none of which relates in any way whatsoever to my post about income taxes in California or the questions that I asked about your assertions. Something that comes as no surprise in any of your posts or replies.

[Robert Roaldi]

This is an opinion piece that is in part about what is and what is not free speech, https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/01/13/trump-impeachment-incitement-free-speech-458884.

[Robert Roaldi]

A group I hadn't heard about before, Boogaloo, https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/montreal-website-extremists-protests-u-s-1.5870183.

A company in France shuts down the web site of a US extremist group that was hosted on their "cloud" situated in Montreal. Is this globalism?

[Alan Klein]

Which figures that who's peddling? Since you're being vague, I'll assume that you mean California's tax revenues for 2020 as the income tax rates that I sited are in plain view for anyone to see.

If that's what you're referring to, then I'm not surprised you don't believe their numbers and I can tell you why you don't. I can also tell you why their numbers are right and why California was surprised that their revenue exceeded their estimates from earlier in the year. They anticipated having to dip into the funds that Governor Brown had saved from the previous surplus years to cover a recession, but instead finished with a surplus.

I'll start with why you don't believe the state is accurately and faithfully complying with the laws that require an accurate accounting of their finances. You're unwilling to believe anything that doesn't fit your predigested and preconceived notions of heroes and villains in the world. Anything that doesn't fit your extremely narrow ideological view of the world is rejected and just bounces off. You'd prefer to believe that the Democratic elected officials that head the several agencies and departments which collect and report financial data are conspiring to violate the law and report false data—rather than accept that a state run by Democrats could manage their finances reasonably well, bring in surpluses instead of deficits, and survive a pandemic and recession year in good financial condition.

California is dominated by Democrats in their state government and therefore must be a failing state in your view. That's why you make statements lacking any evidence that they're broke. That's why you make evidence free assertions that the state is losing their tax base due to the loss of wealthy residents fleeing in "droves".  You don't need evidence to form a point of view, it's predetermined before you see any evidence. Any evidence to the contrary must be a lie or ignored. If you can't avoid contrary evidence, you bob and weave like a boxer on defense. You distract, minimize, and divert with rambling responses that avoid questions and evidence you'd prefer not to address. You have an arsenal of tools that you use to protect your ideological viewpoint and to avoid anything that conflicts with it.

I asked you for some evidence of how many wealthy residents California is losing and gaining that support their income tax base. Your rambling dodge of a response... You discuss housing costs; property taxes; NewYork, New Jersey and Florida; Governor Cuomo; gasoline cost; Trump; Zoom jobs; your residential history; and who pumps your gas. Absolutely none of which relates in any way whatsoever to my post about income taxes in California or the questions that I asked about your assertions. Something that comes as no surprise in any of your posts or replies.

I never said they cheated or violated the law.  But why should I trust what they;re telling me. Should I believe everything the government says?  Do I look like a rube?

There many accounting methods to make things seem better than they are.  The CPI (Consumer Price Index) for inflation is one of them.  The true inflation is much higher.  But the government changes the way they compute the percentages and goods used to figure out the percent.  They're phony, but all legal.  It's just like the government says our Social Security money has been preserved.  Meanwhile, the money has been spent and all they do is the payout from current taxes or printing or borrowing., It's a big Ponzi scheme.  Makes Bernie Madoff look like a piker. 

Maybe California got lucky.  No one there figured they would have a surplus.  They're all amazed it happened.  How did they go from a $54 billion expected deficit to such a huge surplus?  Whose counting the beans? Let's see how things are in a few months.  The fact is they and most states in the country are at their wits end with the loss of income from taxes on business and people lost due to the virus.  They're all screaming for bailouts from Congress.  If things are so good there, why don't they lower state taxes so people don't leave?

[John Camp]

California has a progressive income tax. The rate is 9.3% for single filers with income (after deductions) of $58,635 to $299,508 or married with income of $117,269 to $599,016. The maximum rate is only applied to that portion of annual income over $1 million dollars. The state has one of the lowest property tax rates in the country, so it relies heavily on income tax and places the higher rates on the highest earners.

If rich people are leaving in "droves", how is it that it isn't reflected in reduced income tax revenue? The pandemic reduced tax revenue from things like travel and tourism and caused higher unemployment—leaving the state more reliant on tax revenue from the income of wealthy residents and yet still ended the year with a surplus.

Maybe you could be less vague on what you mean by "droves". What is the net difference between millionaires leaving the state and ones moving to the state?

Not really. This from the California Legislative Analyst's Office:

"In some years, Californians pay more in property taxes and charges than they do in state personal income taxes, the largest state General Fund revenue source. Local governments collected about $43 billion in 2010–11 from the 1 percent rate. The other taxes and charges on the property tax bill generated an additional $12 billion."

https://lao.ca.gov/reports/2012/tax/property-tax-primer-112912.aspx

I had a house in California for a few years, and their taxes are a mess and somewhat responsible for my leaving. I had a house there, but I was not a resident -- I was only there for two or three months a year, and my full-time residence was in Minnesota, another high-tax state. (I have no problem with paying taxes; as somebody once said, it's the price you pay for civilization.) In any case, while I had my house in California, I annually got demands to pay income tax. Since they knew I had a house there, the state assumed I was a resident. I didn't mind that assumption once or twice, but they came after me every year. I'd get a letter demanding a large income tax payment, then I'd have to go through a whole routine of replying to a relatively unresponsive government agency to prove I wasn't actually a resident and that I paid taxes in Minnesota. It was an annual pain in the ass. Also, since I was a new house buyer, I paid very large property tax, while my neighbors generally paid very little, the product of California's distorted property tax system. Since I didn't like the whole California culture that much anyway, I sold my house and left.

[Alan Klein]

Not really. This from the California Legislative Analyst's Office:

"In some years, Californians pay more in property taxes and charges than they do in state personal income taxes, the largest state General Fund revenue source. Local governments collected about $43 billion in 2010–11 from the 1 percent rate. The other taxes and charges on the property tax bill generated an additional $12 billion."

https://lao.ca.gov/reports/2012/tax/property-tax-primer-112912.aspx

I had a house in California for a few years, and their taxes are a mess and somewhat responsible for my leaving. I had a house there, but I was not a resident -- I was only there for two or three months a year, and my full-time residence was in Minnesota, another high-tax state. (I have no problem with paying taxes; as somebody once said, it's the price you pay for civilization.) In any case, while I had my house in California, I annually got demands to pay income tax. Since they knew I had a house there, the state assumed I was a resident. I didn't mind that assumption once or twice, but they came after me every year. I'd get a letter demanding a large income tax payment, then I'd have to go through a whole routine of replying to a relatively unresponsive government agency to prove I wasn't actually a resident and that I paid taxes in Minnesota. It was an annual pain in the ass. Also, since I was a new house buyer, I paid very large property tax, while my neighbors generally paid very little, the product of California's distorted property tax system. Since I didn't like the whole California culture that much anyway, I sold my house and left.

You're smart you left when you did.  California is so broke, they will be going after people who used to live there.  Like the Eagle's song Hotel California, you can check out but you can never leave.

To Tech who asked how many have left in response to my hyperbolic comment about "droves", it's calculated that .04% of high-income people left within two years after California's 2012 tax increase.   It's in this article as well. 

Leave California, Keep Paying California Taxes…Really
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2019/12/03/leave-california-keep-paying-california-taxesreally/?sh=d9b18b74042d